VGC 2011 Threats and Tiering

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NDenizen

I haven't seen a thread of this nature yet, so if there already is one, or topics of this nature are disallowed on this forum, then that's fine.

_ _ _

This forms a vague “Tier list” for what’s being used in the 2011 VGC. The smaller selection of Gen 5 makes it easier to narrow down what is and is not used for this particular game. With no Ubers, or the crazier strategies such as Dark Void Smeargle around, gauging the common threats is much easier than usual.

My lack of any real statistics means this is solely based on observing what most people use for VGC on Pokemon Online, as well as some matches from Seattle, so reliability may differ depending on the experiences of different people. Either way, I’m sure this reflects which pokemon are threatening, which are viable but outclassed, and those pokemon simply nobody has wanted to use.

I’ve also tried to add brief reasons for their usage and threat. What is taken into account are support moves, multi-hit moves, abilities, significant stats and resistances. Resistances and immunities are taken into account regarding multi-hit moves. It’s worth mentioning that there is almost a Dark-Ghost-Fighting centralisation to the metagame, with many of the OU pokemon either being or countering these types. Grass and Flying are also types often taken into account.

Most used multi-hit moves: Water (Water Spout & Surf), Heat Wave, Earthquake, Rock Slide
Most used support/status moves: Trick Room, Rage Powder, Fake Out, Tailwind, Spore, Encore, Taunt
Most used ability: Prankster

Overall, VGC seems to be offensive, though defense and support are still viable strategies.

_ _ _

(TR) indicates pokemon that can take advantage of Trick Room being in effect
* indicates pokemon used at Level 1

This list is primarily based on USAGE

OU (Defining the metagame)

Thundurus - Prankster, Taunt, Thunder Wave, High Offense, High Speed, priority Rain
Whimsicott (TR) - Prankster, Taunt, Beat Up, Endeavor, Trick Room, High Speed, Helping Hand, Encore, Tailwind, priority Sun
Hydreigon - High offense, Earthquake immunity, Water/Heat Wave resistance
Amoongus (TR) - Spore, Rage Powder, High Defense, Water resistance
Jellicent (TR) - Water Spout, High Defense, Trick Room, Heat Wave resistance, Water immunity
Tornadus - Prankster, Taunt, Tailwind, High Speed, priority Rain
Chandelure (TR) - Heat Wave, Trick Room, Taunt, Heat Wave immunity, Imprison
Terrakion - Beat Up recipient, Rock Slide, Earthquake
Mienshao - Fake Out, Inner Focus, Rock Slide, High Offense, High Speed, Fast Guard, Wide Guard
Landorus - Earthquake, Earthquake immunity
Haxorus - High Offense, Earthquake, can hit Levitators
Scrafty (TR) - Fake Out, Rock Slide, Good coverage, High offense, Shed Skin
Reuniclus (TR) - Trick Room, Offense and Defense, Magic Guard
Conkeldurr (TR) – High Offense, Rock Slide, Guts, Wide Guard

BL (Often seen)

Archeops – High Speed, High Offense, Rock Slide, Ability can be swapped/nullified
Volcarona – Heat Wave, Rage Powder
Eeelektros (TR) – Offense and Defense, Good movepool, Mixed, Earthquake immunity.
Cofagrigus (TR) – High defense, Taunt, Trick Room, Cursed Body
Gigalith (TR) - Offense and Defense, Sturdy, Explosion, Rock Slide, Heat Wave resistance, Sandstorm
Druddigon (TR) – High offense
Krookodile – Earthquake, Rock Slide, Intimidate
Zoroark – High Speed, Mind Games
Golurk (TR) – Earthquake, Rock Slide, Sandstorm
Musharna (TR) - Telepathy, High Defense, Trick Room, Skill Swap
Stoutland - Intimidate
Bisharp - Sucker Punch
Darmanitan – High offense

UU (Only occasionally seen)

Escavalier (TR) – High Offense
Galvantula – High Speed, Good Offensive moves
Ferrothorn - Water resistance
Carracosta - Surf, Rockslide, Sturdy
Solosis* (TR) - Trick Room, Endeavor
Whimsicott/Cotonnee* (TR) - Endeavor, Prankster, Trick Room
Alomomola - High Defense, Wish, Healing Heart, Wide Guard, Healing Pulse, Soak
Cincinno – After You, Helping Hand, Encore
Seismitoad - Surf, Earthquake, Muddy Water, Swift Swim
Sigilyph - Skill Swap
Lilligant – Teeter Dance, Chlorophyll
Accelgor -
Braviary - Tailwind
Audino – High Defense, Healing Pulse
Liepard – Fake Out, High Speed
Beheeyem - Telepathy, Simple Beam, Skill Swap
Crustle - Rock Slide
Excadrill - Rock Slide, Earthquake
Vanilluxe - Blizzard
Basculin - High Offense, Aqua Jet, Muddy Water, Surf
Virizion - High Defense, possible Beat Up Recipient
Maractus - Water Absorb, Acupressure, Sucker Punch
Boufalant - Offense and Defense, Sap Sipper

NU (Almost never seen)

Serperior
Emboar
Samurott
Watchog
Simisage
Simisear
Simipour
Unfezant
Zebstrika
Swoobat
Throh
Sawk
Leavanny
Scolipede
Garbodor
Gothitelle
Swanna - Surf, Rain Dance=
Sawsbuck
Emolga
Klinklang
Beartic
Cryogonal
Stunfisk
Mandibuzz - High Defense, Tailwind
Heatmor
Durant
Cobalion

Banned
Any Gen 1 pokemon (#001-151)
Any Gen 2 pokemon (#152-251)
Any Gen 3 pokemon (#252-386)
Any Gen 4 pokemon (#386-493)
Victini (#494)
Reshiram (#643)
Zekrom (#644)
Kyurem (#646)
Keldeo (#647)
Meloetta (#648)
Genesect (#649)
(the move "Freefall" is also banned)
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April P-O statistics (not reflective of actual VGC players, of course)

The tiers are pretty close, more so than normal tiers, so I decided to add a Borderline tier. I don't think this makes things too much of a clusterfuck, but if it all gets too convoluted i'll remove it.

Obviously, feel free to discuss this list, if you feel something is either out of place or simply too significant a threat to confine to lower tiers, then it's worth a mention.
 
Uhh, firstly, a lot of your UU Pokes are also NU. Might want to cut those from a list (probably the NU one)

Secondly, I don't really see how Whimsicott takes advantage of TR. It doesn't care about it, sure, but that's literally it. It doesn't get priority on TR (yay, -6 instead of -7!) and is actually pretty fast, stats-wise.

Ice - 6
Flying - 5
Psychic - 4
Rock - 3
Fighting - 3
Ghost - 3
Dark - 3
Water - 3
Dragon - 2
Bug - 2
Fire - 2
Grass - 2
Electric - 2
Ground - 2
Poison - 1
Steel - 1

Don't think I've missed anything. This is taking the OU list only.
So what this basically says is that you run HP Ice or HP Flying, and otherwise use Reuniclus and Terrakion? Uhh. It also tells us that Excadrill is actually terrible offensively in Gen 5, so unless you're able to consistently get a Sandstorm and Swords Dance in, don't bother trying.

Lastly, I'd definitely put Golurk as a TRer. GolurkTross tends to be the TR equivalent of Dual Genie, and it's pretty sickening in TR even without that combination.
 
Yoshiken said:
Uhh, firstly, a lot of your UU Pokes are also NU. Might want to cut those from a list (probably the NU one)

Secondly, I don't really see how Whimsicott takes advantage of TR. It doesn't care about it, sure, but that's literally it. It doesn't get priority on TR (yay, -6 instead of -7!) and is actually pretty fast, stats-wise.

<type stuff>

Don't think I've missed anything. This is taking the OU list only.
So what this basically says is that you run HP Ice or HP Flying, and otherwise use Reuniclus and Terrakion? Uhh. It also tells us that Excadrill is actually terrible offensively in Gen 5, so unless you're able to consistently get a Sandstorm and Swords Dance in, don't bother trying.

Lastly, I'd definitely put Golurk as a TRer. GolurkTross tends to be the TR equivalent of Dual Genie, and it's pretty sickening in TR even without that combination.
Click to expand...

Have you never played against a TR Whimsicott? Usually it's Level 1, you're probably thinking about it at level 50. It sets up TR and then is slower than everything else so it use Endeavor to bring your HP down. It's really potent if you don't know what's coming (or are like me and don't realize its Level 1 until too late :/).

And I agree on the Golutk thing. It should either be high UU or low OU (look at me, talking about tier lists in VGC, where you really can't make on :P) And Eelektross should definitely be OU.

What are you basing this off, though? PO or regionals?

EDIT: Musharna and Krookodile to OU I'm pretty sure.
 
As I said, this list is gathered from my amazing and scientific method of "remembering what people use often on an online server", so yeah, different perspectives.

Yoshiken said:
Uhh, firstly, a lot of your UU Pokes are also NU. Might want to cut those from a list (probably the NU one)

No can do unless I have a reason to, really.

<le types>

Don't think I've missed anything. This is taking the OU list only.
So what this basically says is that you run HP Ice or HP Flying, and otherwise use Reuniclus and Terrakion?
Click to expand...

HP Ice is pretty good in this metagame, though I doubt you would see much Hidden Power in VGCs due to the annoying process of getting it. Reuniclus is pretty good, but Jellicent, Chandelure and Hydreigon are more than happy to tear it apart, and unless you're in Trick Room it's going to die. Pretty much everything seems to have something to kill Terakkion, so unless you desire that +4 attack boost from Beat Up, I don't think that it's that great. I mean, this game is very much a Rock-Paper-Scissors affair, with everything countering everything, so evaluating a pokemon on their roles is better than typing or weakness.

Uhh. It also tells us that Excadrill is actually terrible offensively in Gen 5, so unless you're able to consistently get a Sandstorm and Swords Dance in, don't bother trying.

Lastly, I'd definitely put Golurk as a TRer. GolurkTross tends to be the TR equivalent of Dual Genie, and it's pretty sickening in TR even without that combination.
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I've seen very little weather in general, though there are good pokemon to exploit each type (except Hail of course, lol). A lack of Priority Sandstorm makes sand not so fantastic, but I imagine in the right hands it could work just as well. Sturdy Gigalith could set it up quite nicely.

Golurk I considered as a TR user, though I personally haven't seen it used yet.

JRank said:
Have you never played against a TR Whimsicott? Usually it's Level 1, you're probably thinking about it at level 50. It sets up TR and then is slower than everything else so it use Endeavor to bring your HP down. It's really potent if you don't know what's coming (or are like me and don't realize its Level 1 until too late :/).
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I've been using a similarly planned Level 1 Solosis to great effect. I prefer it to Whimsicott because of Magic Guard, as all it really needs to do is set up TR and then spam Endeavor whilst I spam a Kings Rock Slide to pick one opponent off and hopefully net flinchhax on the other. I actually forget Cottonee can be evolved without leveling up, so i'll probably add "Level 1 Whimsicott" to UU

And Eelektross should definitely be OU.
EDIT: Musharna and Krookodile to OU I'm pretty sure.
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Regarding all "this should be there" mentions, i'm going to at least ask for at a reason explaining the reason people do/do not use each pokemon.
 
I think you should consider moving Stoutland out of "NU", considering I spotted like two of them in the top 4 in Seattle. I also see a large amount of Bisharp on PO, so maybe you should move that up too. NU should be reserved solely for the Pokemon who are practically never seen, but that's not the case with about half of the NU list.
 
NDenizen said:
I mean, this game is very much a Rock-Paper-Scissors affair, with everything countering everything, so evaluating a pokemon on their roles is better than typing or weakness.
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Setup (non-TR) > Goodstuffs > TR?

Okay, so it's not that simple.
A team designed to destroy setups (e.g. Mienshao, Whimsicott, ImprisonLure) will beat setups (or at least a specific one), while setups that get going will shred apart unprepared teams. But those unprepared teams will generally be offensive and will beat the teams designed to beat setups?
So, at that point, the question becomes: can you create a team that covers each of these three aspects? (At which point, you probably lose to a team dedicated to one of them because it does it better.)
Also, I'd say things like Musharna/Krookodile should stay where they are, but there should be a note that the tiers are a LOT closer than those in normal Pokemon play. Something near the top of OU won't necessarily be far superior to something near the bottom in UU, just means it's a lot easier to use and probably more reliable/consistent.
 
NDenizen said:
HP Ice is pretty good in this metagame, though I doubt you would see much Hidden Power in VGCs due to the annoying process of getting it.
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Very very wrong. Standard seed RNG in B/W has made it trivial to obtain any desired hidden power.

Not expecting Hidden Power Ice/anything just because it is "annoying to get" is a very risky non-strategy.
 
Darkmalice said:
PO has usage statistics for its VCG 11 metagame.

However, I question how skilled some of the players were. For example, Scraggy (not Scrafty) was used the same number of times as Terrakion, both appearing in 3.33% of battles.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that data was collected from only 15 battles. That means that one person used Scraggy only one time. As for Terrakion seeing the same amount of use? What is is there to say? It's PO-Beta.

EDIT:

ncsbert said:
Try this one guys.

PO VGC 2011 stats for April 2011

Stats cycle at the end of every month.
Click to expand...

Rotom-C?
 
Yoshiken said:
Setup (non-TR) > Goodstuffs > TR?

Okay, so it's not that simple.

Also, I'd say things like Musharna/Krookodile should stay where they are, but there should be a note that the tiers are a LOT closer than those in normal Pokemon play. Something near the top of OU won't necessarily be far superior to something near the bottom in UU, just means it's a lot easier to use and probably more reliable/consistent.
Click to expand...

I was referring more to typing, in the sense that using a Psychic to take out a Fighting that just took out your Dark you used to take out their Ghost will inevitable bring out their Dark type etc. etc. etc.

Of course, your description is relevant too, though that's always referred to VGC and Doubles in general from what I can see. Obviously in VGC '11 the Setups and counters are fewer and more obvious. TR seems pretty significant, with many teams carrying counters of exploiters, and then Tailwind and weather being less favoured. "Goodstuffs" I honestly think is just bad in this metagame, unless it's played really strategically.

After finally getting the knack of TR in Singles, i've been exploiting it quite nicely on VGC. With TR, its best users can usually take a hit before going down so they're not always completely outclassed. The thing with anti-set up is that i've often overcome it by essentially pulling a late-game TR out of my ass when their best counter is gone (four of my six have it), and then they just fall apart. The best anti-set up teams can keep momentum at all times.

The thing I really enjoy about TR is when two teams try it at once. Then you get the real mind games.

ncsbert said:
Very very wrong. Standard seed RNG in B/W has made it trivial to obtain any desired hidden power.

Not expecting Hidden Power Ice/anything just because it is "annoying to get" is a very risky non-strategy.
Click to expand...

Ahh okay, I considered RNG but I wasn't entirely sure. I guess Hidden Power does matter then, though I haven't seen it used much.

Mysterious Trainer said:
Keep in mind that data was collected from only 15 battles. That means that one person used Scraggy only one time. As for Terrakion seeing the same amount of use? What is is there to say? It's PO-Beta.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this is why I haven't been using it. Assuming Smogon has been playing VGC on its own servers and collecting data there, that would be far more reliable. The PO statistics are especially crap because i've been using Solosis for a while and it doesn't even appear on the list.

EDIT: Ahh, April statistics help.
 
locopoke said:
I think you should consider moving Stoutland out of "NU", considering I spotted like two of them in the top 4 in Seattle. I also see a large amount of Bisharp on PO, so maybe you should move that up too. NU should be reserved solely for the Pokemon who are practically never seen, but that's not the case with about half of the NU list.
Click to expand...

Bisharp was uncommon but it did pop up twice or thrice so that'd be a good decision, and i agree with Stoutland moving up for that reason too

CS Jellicent was a pretty common threat and should be thrown up there under its reasons
 
NDenizen said:
Ahh okay, I considered RNG but I wasn't entirely sure. I guess Hidden Power does matter then, though I haven't seen it used much.
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It's no more difficult than getting flawless IVs, which all of the serious competitors will have. I have Hidden Power on two of mine.
 
Have you never played against a TR Whimsicott? Usually it's Level 1, you're probably thinking about it at level 50. It sets up TR and then is slower than everything else so it use Endeavor to bring your HP down. It's really potent if you don't know what's coming (or are like me and don't realize its Level 1 until too late :/).
Click to expand...

How can Whimsicott use Endeavor at level 1?

EDIT: Ah, my bad.
 
my suggested placing
old placing
NDenizen said:
Most used multi-hit moves: Water (Water Spout & Surf), Heat Wave, Earthquake, Rock Slide Discharge
Most used support/status moves: Trick Room, Rage Powder, Fake Out, Tailwind, Spore, Encore, Taunt
Most used ability: Prankster

Overall, VGC seems to be offensive, though defense and support are still viable strategies.

_ _ _

(TR) indicates pokemon that can take advantage of Trick Room being in effect
* indicates pokemon used at Level 1

OU (Common and effective)

Thundurus - Prankster, Taunt, Thunder Wave, High Offense, High Speed, priority Rain
Whimsicott (TR) - Prankster, Taunt, Beat Up, Endeavor, Trick Room, High Speed, Helping Hand, Encore, Tailwind, priority Sun
Amoongus (TR) - Spore, Rage Powder, High Defense, Water resistance
Jellicent (TR) - Ghost typing, Water Spout, Walling, Trick Room, Heat Wave resistance, Water immunity
Tornadus - Prankster, Taunt, Tailwind, High Speed, priority Rain
Hydreigon - High offense, Earthquake immunity, Water/Heat Wave resistance
Chandelure (TR) - Heat Wave, Trick Room, Taunt, Heat Wave immunity
Terrakion - Beat Up recipient, Rock Slide
Mienshao - Fake Out, Inner Focus, Rock Slide, High Offense, High Speed, Fast Guard, Wide Guard
Landorus - Earthquake, Earthquake immunity
Haxorus - High Offense, Earthquake, can hit Levitators
Scrafty (TR) - Fake Out, Rock Slide, Good coverage, High offense
Reuniclus (TR) - Trick Room, Offense and Defense
Conkeldurr (TR) – High Offense, Rock Slide, Guts, Wide Guard

BL (Borderline)

Archeops – High Speed, High Offense, Rock Slide, Ability can be swapped/nullified
Volcarona – Heat Wave, Rage Powder
Escavalier (TR) – High Offense
Eeelektros (TR) – Offense and Defense, Good movepool, Mixed, Earthquake immunity.
Cofagrigus (TR) – High defense, Taunt, Trick Room, Cursed Body
Darmanitan – High offense
Gigalith (TR) - Offense and Defense, Sturdy, Explosion, Rock Slide, Heat Wave resistance, Sandstorm
Druddigon (TR) – High offense
Krookodile – Earthquake, Rock Slide
Zoroark – High Speed, Mind Games
Golurk (TR) – Earthquake, Rock Slide, Sandstorm
Galvantula – High Speed, Good Offensive moves
Musharna (TR) - Telepathy, High Defense, Trick Room, Skill Swap
Stoutland -
Bisharp - Sucker Punch

UU (Viable but not often seen)

Galvantula – High Speed, Good Offensive moves
Darmanitan – High offense
Ferrothorn - Water resistance
Carracosta - Surf, Rockslide, Sturdy
Solosis* (TR) - Trick Room, Endeavor
Whimsicott/Cotonnee* (TR) - Endeavor, Prankster, Trick Room
Alomomola - High Defense, Wish, Healing Heart, Wide Guard, Healing Pulse, Soak
Cincinno – After You, Helping Hand, Encore
Seismitoad - Surf, Earthquake, Muddy Water, Swift Swim
Sigilyph - Skill Swap
Lilligant – Teeter Dance, Chlorophyll
Accelgor
Braviary - Tailwind
Audino – High Defense, Healing Pulse
Liepard – Fake Out, High Speed
Beheeyem - Telepathy, Simple Beam, Skill Swap
Crustle - Rock Slide
Excadrill - Rock Slide, Earthquake
Vanilluxe - Blizzard
Basculin - Adaptability, Aqua Jet, Muddy Water
Virzion
Mandibuzz - very bulky, great typing
Boufallant - Sap Sipper, Head Smash

NU (Rarely used, outclassed)

Solosis* (TR) - Trick Room, Endeavor
Serperior
Emboar
Samurott
Watchog
Simisage
Simisear
Simipour
Unfezant
Zebstrika
Swoobat
Throh
Sawk
Leavanny
Scolipede
Basculin
Maractus - Water Absorb, Acupressure
Garbodor
Gothitelle
Swanna - Surf, Rain Dance=
Sawsbuck
Emolga
Klinklang
Beartic
Cryogonal
Stunfisk
Boufalant
Mandibuzz
Heatmor
Durant
Cobalion
Virizion
Click to expand...

• Darmanitan is very powerful, but many things can outspeed. Other pokemon can also survive its hits and do considerable damage back.

• Galvantula, while fast, is not nearly sturdy enough for this metagame. A Rock Slide will OHKO it- not to mention it auto-loses to Chandelure.

• Solosis looks like a cheap knockoff of Endeavor Erufuun; but it doesn't have Prankster.

• Basculin can do a lot of damage with a Choice Band. It was on the winning team at Seattle Juniors. It deserves a mention at the very least.

• Virizion is a specially defensive tank. It's outclassed by Terrakion, but it can do things Terrakion can't; such as OHKO Jellicent.

• Mandibuzz is incredibly bulky; it also can use Brave Bird and set up tailwind.

• Boufallant is very powerful; with Head Smash, Wild Charge, and Megahorn, it can do a lot of damage. It is the only sure win against any Amoonguss.

These are changes that I think are more definitive of the metagame. If you have any qualms with my placing, I can give a more detailed explanation.


EDIT NOTE: I think you should rename the tiers. OU, BL, UU, NU is misleading. I think you should go with Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3, and Tier 4- which leaves it open if you want to add more in.
 
agree with unreality but put maractus, virizion, escavalier, and sawk in "UU"
stoutland in "NU," krookodile does intimidate better
ice cream in "BL" everything is ice weak
 
I think Samurott should go into UU. I don't think it's outclassed at all with some of the KOs that it can get.

Also, Galvantula should not be in the same class as Eelektross. I would put that down to UU. Same thing with Stoutland, put that down to UU as well.
 
stoutland in "NU," krookodile does intimidate better
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I don't know about that, I've seen some pretty potent Stoutlands on Free Mode VGC-compatible teams. One that carried Thunder Wave and was paired with a Thunderbolt/HP Flying/Grass Knot/Protect Thundurus wrecked my team entirely. I think it at least deserves UU, but I'd personally put it just within reach of BL.
 
Ashenlock said:
wrecked my team entirely. I think it at least deserves UU, but I'd personally put it just within reach of BL.
Click to expand...

Thing is, I'm guessing your team had a weakness to Electric-type. That makes Stoutland somewhat situational. It might die to a Close Combat before it can get off any crucial Thunder Waves. I think UU is just fine, BL is pushing it a bit too far imo.
 
Unreality said:
• Darmanitan is very powerful, but many things can outspeed. Other pokemon can also survive its hits and do considerable damage back.
Click to expand...

I completely disagree with this. The Choice Scarf set can check almost any attacking combination in the metagame with its ability to remove a Pokemon from the match before it even attacks, and the Life Orb set OHKOs almost everything.
 
Unreality said:
my suggested placing
old placing

These are changes that I think are more definitive of the metagame. If you have any qualms with my placing, I can give a more detailed explanation.
Click to expand...

If something like Stoutland appears in the semi-finals, it's obviously common.

Also, Solosis is not outclassed by Whimsicott when it comes to Level 1 use - Whimsicott is the cheap knock off, and has better stuff to do at Level 50. I use Solosis to set up Trick Room, follow up with Endeavor spam, with an ally finishing off the low health pokemon with a multi-hit move, usually Rock Slide which can net a flinch and keeps Solosis alive and dangerous longer. I run Protect for Fake Out or other priority. At this point, Prankster would only be needed for one more useful random status move, whereas Magic Guard works well to nullify Burns, Toxic and Sandstorm and force your opponent to hit it twice to get rid of it. In TR, only priority will stop Solosis using its fourth move. I use it enough to make it not NU, at least.

Unreality said:
EDIT NOTE: I think you should rename the tiers. OU, BL, UU, NU is misleading. I think you should go with Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3, and Tier 4- which leaves it open if you want to add more in.
Click to expand...

Thing is, the list is based on usage. You have the popular choices that are currently definitive of the metagame, the pokemon that appear often but aren't necessarily definitive or underused, and those that appear now and again for certain roles. And then you have literally "Never Used". I think the tiering is fine as long as people understand the definitions, but i'll use a replacement providing it's not just vaguely numbered.
 
It doesn't look like anyone has mentioned that Darmanitan can also learn Taunt + Encore. It isn't the best user of these, but it certainly has some use in them.
 
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