Why do you keep acting like this isn't a big deal?
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VGC 2014 Viability Rankings v2
- Thread starter tennisace
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I'm not. You guys are just hyping Pyroar way too much + you're downplaying Greninja way too much. They recently published an article on Nugget Bridge covering just about everything relevant to the VGC 2014 meta, and it included both of these pokes. Yes, Greninja wasn't the star of the article, and wasn't even that "amazing", but it highlighted the key point I'm trying to get across: flexibility. Greninja is a far more flexible option than Pyroar is + it's still a really fast and pretty effective sweeper, with many possibilities on how one could be run. Pyroar, on the other hand, checks very specific threats (many of which Greninja can check too) and gets fainted by nearly anything with super-effective coverage or a good deal of power (which, in this meta, is almost everything else), but unlike Greninja, it can't change its typing to avoid that hit. It also has very few viable ways of being run, meaning it's really damn predictable, which isn't good for a frail poke.
With all this, Greninja's a D while Pyroar's a C. Hell, just now looking, even WIGGLYTUFF is a C at the moment, and all Wiggly is is a one-off hat-trick used to hard-counter Intimidate and die to physical punishment, but Greninja's a D because...what? You all made your points for why Pyroar shouldn't be moved down, but why can't Greninja be moved UP, considering the types of mons that are already in the C tier, which was my point this whole time?
Side note: You can't say "______ aren't comparable. Don't compare ______." when a tier list is all about comparisons between characters based on viability in situations and match-ups.
Do you want to know how I would describe Greninja? It has very few viable ways of being, is really damn predictable, and completely inflexible.
Greninja @ Focus Sash / Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump / Scald
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Protect
This is Greninja's one set. Rock Slide simply takes out too much of your coverage to be worth it. Pyroar's primary purpose is to OHKO Aegislash, the first properly successful team made that immediately obvious in the report, Greninja can not OHKO Aegislash and can be OHKOed by Aegislash, it is the softest check to it imaginable. Protean does not let you avoid an attack, seriously, because of how predictable it is Protean just makes Greninja impossible to support defensively. No one is arguing that Pyroar is flexible, it is however more reliable, stronger, and has a clearly defined purpose which makes it useful on some teams (I can bold texts too O.O).
Wigglytuff is C Rank because it actually does something useful and manipulates your opponent into not wanting to use or lead with their Intimidate users, which allows Wigglytuff to support physical attackers. You literally give reasons for it to be C Rank O.o "Wiggly is is a one-off hat-trick used to hard-counter Intimidate and die to physical punishment". Pyroar and Greninja are C Rank because they have strategy, albeit gimmicky, but strategy nevertheless, on the other hand Greninja doesn't.
Feel free to compare Pokemon which are comparable, for instance Salamence and Hydreigon are comparable as they are specially attacking Dragon-types which often use Choice Scarf or Specs. Pyroar and Greninja aren't comparable because they preform different roles and are used on different types of teams. Viability rankings aren't about arguing "X should be this rank, because Y is in this rank." Yes, viability rankings are based on match-ups, how the Pokemon in question matches up against the format, something Greninja doesn't do all that well in, it is completely beaten by Rotom-W, Mega Kangaskhan, Ludicolo, and Gardevoir to name a few. inb4 you say some of those Pokemon beat Pyroar, that is irrelevant because Pyroar is supposed to be used to beat a few select Pokemon to support Mega Kangaskhan, not as a general attacker.
This whole thing is ridiculous if Greninja was going to move up it would have already.
Hydreigon should definitely move up to A. I also think Mega Gengar should move down to C rank as it should only be used for PerishTrap which isn't actually all that hard to beat and requires full team support.
1) Once again, you give Greninja very VERY little credit where credit is due. If it wants to use Rock Slide, it totally can with a Naive/Hasty nature. If it wants to use Extrasensory to break through Mega Venusaur, it totally can. If it wants Grass Knot, that's an option. It doesn't necessarily need Dark or Water moves as STAB options because it's technically got STAB on any dang move it can learn. Also, if Talonflame's gonna use Brave Bird, but I'm a Rock-type, that impending OHKO is now a 2HKO. If the same's gonna happen to Pyroar...it's pretty much gone. That's sort of the point I was making about Protean: You can *possibly* change your typing for both an offensive or a defensive advantage. I've had situations where I was gonna be hit by Shadow Ball, but because I was a Normal-type at the time, the move just whiffed for free. Also had times where Aegislash would use Flash Cannon, expecting me to use Ice Beam, but because I used Scald, it was not very effective. Pyroar doesn't get this advantage, even if it's relatively minor.
2) Pyroar has real, viable uses, so it's in C, even though it's hella frail and dies faster than Choice Band Mienshao spamming HJK. Fine. Wigglytuff is, once again, a highly predictable, totally inflexible, one-off hat-trick that got a ton of Ray Rizzo hype, then faded into obscurity again, but it's in C because it "has a set plan"? That's a lousy reason to put something in C rank. Without Intimidate, Wigglytuff is useless. A complete waste of space. Greninja's main plan is to simply be applied to whatever's missing on your team. It's coverage, and it's much more reliable than Wigglytuff is, but Greninja's a D? The whole thing doesn't even make sense when you put it in perspective.
3) "Salamence and Hydreigon are comparable as they are specially attacking Dragon-types which often use Choice Scarf or Specs."
Greninja and Pyroar are speedy special attackers that often use Life Orb or Focus Sash. So...huh...
Now are their targets the exact same? No, but neither are Salamence's and Hydreigon's. Since Hydreigon has ungodly damage, when using specs, it has a much wider option of OHKO targets, but you're comparing it to Salamence none-the-less.
Is the frame I'm using understandable enough to make a comparison with? Why on Earth isn't it? I mean, if you're not gonna compare a speedy special attacking pokemon that uses X items to another pokemon that can be described in a relatively similar fashion using the same items, then what do you compare it to? Floatzel?
Regardless, it seems like placements on this list are being tossed around on a whim. Especially since Mega Abomasnow is a freaking C rank too. It's somewhat laughable.
Laurel brought this up earlier, that Hydreigon should move up to A rank. This would mainly be for it's Choice Specs set, which was used by Alex Ogloza at US nationals. It gets away with using a Modest nature as it can outspeed Gardvoir with a neutral nature and won't speedtie with base 100 with a positive nature, so running a Speed positive nature would actually be detrimental as you have a weaker Draco Meteor. Pretty much just click Draco Meteor and things die, it has pretty good coverage when it is need.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 178-210 (98.3 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 148+ SpD Rotom-W: 135-159 (85.9 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (This spread is pretty outdated, but I think it is still the most popular one overall.)
These are two pretty relevant calcs while neither are guaranteed it has a pretty good chance to OHKO Mega Kangaskhan, and the Rotom-W calc just shows that it can be KOed after a little prior damage.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 148+ SpD Rotom-W: 135-159 (85.9 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (This spread is pretty outdated, but I think it is still the most popular one overall.)
These are two pretty relevant calcs while neither are guaranteed it has a pretty good chance to OHKO Mega Kangaskhan, and the Rotom-W calc just shows that it can be KOed after a little prior damage.
I will have to agree with Hydreigon to move up as well. The offensive pressure he brings is unparalleled with the Specs set. Also, seeing as many teams are opting for more slower, bulkier Pokes, Hydreigon easily abuses this as he outspeeds many of these Pokemon and can threaten OHKOs. His typing also has a nice niche to it since Fairy attacks are very limited, and everything he normally worries about Salamence worries about more. The typing also means he doesn't die as easily to Ice attacks which includes a plethora of Pokemon, leading to Hydreigon easily surviving at least 1 hit from any move and return with heavy damage in the process. To be honest though I don't think it should've been Nats to decide Hydreigon's placement. He's been a centerpiece for some teams through the season already as a Specs powerhouse. I guess it just took a while for everyone else to catch on.
Charizard Y: B rank. Yea, ZardY hasn't been doing too hot, and when Rain v. Sand is going to be prevalent ZardY just won't be able to get the power he needs. Still though, he has a good match-up against teams where you don't have to worry about weather wars, unless they have Aerodactyl, Garchomp, Rotom-H...
Also, I still stand for my opinion for Aerodactyl moving up to A. It seems that many people are realizing how useful he is. One of the very nice combos that is being used more often is Sky Drop, as it sort of has a nice effect of being able to nullify Rage Powder from Amoonguss, and outside of that it can nullify any attacker for a turn for that matter. And of course, he still has access to a powerful flinch hax Rock Slide as well Tailwind and Taunt.
Charizard Y: B rank. Yea, ZardY hasn't been doing too hot, and when Rain v. Sand is going to be prevalent ZardY just won't be able to get the power he needs. Still though, he has a good match-up against teams where you don't have to worry about weather wars, unless they have Aerodactyl, Garchomp, Rotom-H...
Also, I still stand for my opinion for Aerodactyl moving up to A. It seems that many people are realizing how useful he is. One of the very nice combos that is being used more often is Sky Drop, as it sort of has a nice effect of being able to nullify Rage Powder from Amoonguss, and outside of that it can nullify any attacker for a turn for that matter. And of course, he still has access to a powerful flinch hax Rock Slide as well Tailwind and Taunt.
Honestly I feel like Rotom-W should be bumped down. It can't handle sun that well, as Solarbeam really puts a dent in it. Ludicolo takes care of it on rain teams. It can't switch into Mawile. Rotom-H might not handle rain at all and might be a little afraid of Rock Slide (though non stab Rock Slide is tankable), but it at least it handles sun pretty well, and the multiple Steels and Grasses. Honestly, I think the best trait of Rotom-W is the pressure it puts on Rotom-H.
Finally someone on my side. I think Rotom-W is way overhyped. Yes, it has decent stat spread, good typing, and a nice ability with that typing but Rotom-W has to be the most prepared for Pokemon. It is so common that everyone has dedicated at least one Pokemon to making sure that thing doesn't have the chance to do anything in a game. Definitely bring down to A, possibly even B.
Both Rotom forms are over-hyped, as well as Salamence. Really, the only pokemon that should be S-tier are Aegislash and Kangaskhan...and maybe Garchomp. Rotom-H's main benefit is that it does well against the things Rotom-W struggles with or is straight countered by, but that doesn't mean that it's better in general outside of those specific match-ups, even if it's still really solid. H and W are almost two sides of the same coin, coincidentally, and I don't think either should be S rank.
I might agree with demoting Rotom-H if we had more viable fire types, but if you want a fire that can take a decent hit and has the all around stats to preform multiple roles, its pretty much mandatory. It puts out so much work against the top Pokemon, and set versatility is always something to consider when ranking a Pokemon. While Sitrus/Bulk/Power is the most common, its by no means the only viable option.
Kangaskhan is the only viable Normal-type, but the only reason it's an S-rank is because it's blatantly broken, not because it's the only viable Normal-type.
Being the best Fire-type and being S-rank in general are two different things. For any beneficial match-up Rotom-H takes from Rotom-W, Rotom-W seems to cover ground in other match-ups Rotom-H can't deal with. To boot, Rotom-H can't handle Rotom-W itself. I understand the notion, but both Rotom forms need to be bumped down to A in my honest opinion.
Rotom-H doesn't deserve S rank just because its the best non mega Fire, that's just half the logic. It deserves S rank because its the best non mega Fire, and Fire is a very, very valuable type in this metagame. Have a Fire type STAB, Will-o-Wisp, and resistance to Fairy, Steel, and Fire is very important in the metagame. Not to mention Rotom specifically enjoys a Ground immunity and Flying resist as well, with an Electric STAB that can make nailed it for a STAB super effective move trick. Rotom-H isn't a broken monster like Kangaskhan, but it can help your team handle lots of scary metagame facets. It gains it's value by countering the metagame, not being the metagame, and its value in what job it preforms and how well it preforms it deserves S rank. Its a staple on many teams for a good reason.
The thing doesn't counter the meta-game, though. Both Rotom suffer for being extremely meta-game pokemon. If heat gets popular, people use wash. If wash is popular, people counter wash and thus people use heat to counter those counters. Also, ground immunity is swell, but mitigated when its main enemy due to that is now rock, which more pokes toss around than EQ + there's a 30% flinch chance tacked onto it in most cases. Lastly, Heat's unfortunate lack of Fire Blast means that if something switches into its Overheat to tank it, you're stuck with half damage until you can switch, and at that point all its good for is tossing status.
I understand your reasoning behind the statement, but Rotom-H isn't S worthy just because it's the main Fire-type in the meta. It has a significant set of flaws it can't overcome on its own, and S-rank is reserved for very powerful, very top-tier threats in the meta, something I don't think Rotom-H qualifies for.
Nominating Roserade for C Rank. While it faces competition from Venusaur and Amoonguss it is faster than both to sleep Rotom, Gardevoir, and Chandelure and also has higher special attack in addition to Technician to hit Steel-types harder with HP Fire while still being able to check Water-types.
tagging LightningLuxray Audiosurfer Laurel for discussion
tagging LightningLuxray Audiosurfer Laurel for discussion
I agree with Rotom-W being bumped down to a. I'm just going to quote the OP here:
This is basically Rotom-W in a nutshell. It is easy to counter-team, like Professor Birch said before, Rotom-W is quite possibly the Pokémon in the meta that is over-prepared for the most (tied Garchomp and possibly Salamence if you are a little lenient) and imo all three should be in A-rank, while Aegis, Rotom-H and M-Kanga stay S.
Nominating Zapdos for A Rank.
The loss of Heat Wave and Tailwind is pretty disappointing in this format but it's still an incredibly useful mon. Zapdos is a great offensive and defensive pokemon. It has a nice typing. It has respectable 90/85/90 bulk,great special attack and nice speed, tieing with Kan and Zard. Zapdos is one of the few pokemon in the format that can make use out of a reliable recovery move, which can make it difficult to take down. Thanks to roost, Zapdos doesn't need to rely on Sitrus Berry and has a lot more options for what item it can run.
Zapdos is really great support for a team, with Thunder Wave. Speed Control is hardly prevalent this year so most people aren't prepared for it. Slowing down the other team puts you at a huge advantage and with Zapdos' naturally good speed it gives you a great matchup. There are very few things that come close to OHKOing Zapdos so it's easy for it to get in a position where it can start spreading Twaves.
What's really great about Zapdos imo is that it can be run a handful of different options while still being viable. Bold Defensive sets can be good, Rock Helmet Zapdos has been seeing some popularity in Japan. It can be a bulky attacker with great longevity thanks to roost. It can go all out offensive with a timid nature and lo, and can even make use of substitute. It does have a pretty limited offensive movepool with Tbolt/Volt Switch and HP Ice being it's only really viable moves but that's not exactly bad coverage in this format.
I think Zapdos handles the meta really well right now and fits the definition of A-rank.
Also nominating Jumpluff for D rank.
Jumpluff has a nice niche of being a sleep inducer that's really fast and can go through Sub. Encore also helps a lot since it stops the opponent from using protect to a good extent. And if they do use protect,or some other status move they don't want to be locked into, you can punish them for it. It's got other nice support options as well like Helping Hand(which is rather rare this year) and Rage Powder. It's definitely outclassed by Amoonguss but it has it's own unique qualities that I believe should earn it a spot in D rank.
Lastly, I think Goodra should drop to C rank.
The best thing about Goodra is that it can tank a shitload of special attacks and it's immune to spore. Outside of that, it's pretty meh. A lot of the biggest threats right now are physical and deal with Goodra very easily. Goodra's physical defense in nothing to write home about and neither is it's speed. Goodra's offensive presence is rather disappointing as well. Comparing it to all the other relevant dragons in the format, it's most definitely the worst. If you're going to be using a specially attacking dragon, in most cases, Hydreigon is the better option.
The loss of Heat Wave and Tailwind is pretty disappointing in this format but it's still an incredibly useful mon. Zapdos is a great offensive and defensive pokemon. It has a nice typing. It has respectable 90/85/90 bulk,great special attack and nice speed, tieing with Kan and Zard. Zapdos is one of the few pokemon in the format that can make use out of a reliable recovery move, which can make it difficult to take down. Thanks to roost, Zapdos doesn't need to rely on Sitrus Berry and has a lot more options for what item it can run.
Zapdos is really great support for a team, with Thunder Wave. Speed Control is hardly prevalent this year so most people aren't prepared for it. Slowing down the other team puts you at a huge advantage and with Zapdos' naturally good speed it gives you a great matchup. There are very few things that come close to OHKOing Zapdos so it's easy for it to get in a position where it can start spreading Twaves.
What's really great about Zapdos imo is that it can be run a handful of different options while still being viable. Bold Defensive sets can be good, Rock Helmet Zapdos has been seeing some popularity in Japan. It can be a bulky attacker with great longevity thanks to roost. It can go all out offensive with a timid nature and lo, and can even make use of substitute. It does have a pretty limited offensive movepool with Tbolt/Volt Switch and HP Ice being it's only really viable moves but that's not exactly bad coverage in this format.
I think Zapdos handles the meta really well right now and fits the definition of A-rank.
Also nominating Jumpluff for D rank.
Jumpluff has a nice niche of being a sleep inducer that's really fast and can go through Sub. Encore also helps a lot since it stops the opponent from using protect to a good extent. And if they do use protect,or some other status move they don't want to be locked into, you can punish them for it. It's got other nice support options as well like Helping Hand(which is rather rare this year) and Rage Powder. It's definitely outclassed by Amoonguss but it has it's own unique qualities that I believe should earn it a spot in D rank.
Lastly, I think Goodra should drop to C rank.
The best thing about Goodra is that it can tank a shitload of special attacks and it's immune to spore. Outside of that, it's pretty meh. A lot of the biggest threats right now are physical and deal with Goodra very easily. Goodra's physical defense in nothing to write home about and neither is it's speed. Goodra's offensive presence is rather disappointing as well. Comparing it to all the other relevant dragons in the format, it's most definitely the worst. If you're going to be using a specially attacking dragon, in most cases, Hydreigon is the better option.
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Charizard (Mega Y) for B Rank
Charizard's poor typing and physical defense make it a risky choice for a mega evolution, as most people would recognize it as a good plan to try and keep your mega alive in most situations. While the weaknesses can be dealt with by a supporter such as Lightning Rod Rhydon, it is troublesome to use up a team slot on a supporter, and the need for such a supporter signifies its status as B rank even more. One of the things that sets Charizard Y apart is its incredible nuking power with Overheat, but the special attack drop limits Zard Y to one nuke without switching. Because of Zard Y's disappointing typing, switching is difficult. Much more difficult than with the other A Ranks that Zard Y currently sits with. Even the nuking capabilities of Zard Y are only under damaged minimally by Specs Hydra who doesn't have as much trouble switching, doesn't take up a mega slot, and is still in B (whether hydra should be or not is another discussion).
One advantage of Charizard Y's typing is the ability to use STAB fire moves, a trait shared by only a few usable Pokemon in this year's format. Charizard Y does enjoy the benefits of this, but a decently offensive Rotom-H gives the same benefits if you just want a strong way to deal with Aegi/Mawile/Ferro without taking a mega slot. Charizard also is completely walled by two S ranks, some of the most dominant Pokemon in the format. While it shares this trait with its competitor fire type Rotom-H (also being walled by Garchomp and Rotom-H), the trait is not something you look for in a Mega.
Charizard's poor typing and physical defense make it a risky choice for a mega evolution, as most people would recognize it as a good plan to try and keep your mega alive in most situations. While the weaknesses can be dealt with by a supporter such as Lightning Rod Rhydon, it is troublesome to use up a team slot on a supporter, and the need for such a supporter signifies its status as B rank even more. One of the things that sets Charizard Y apart is its incredible nuking power with Overheat, but the special attack drop limits Zard Y to one nuke without switching. Because of Zard Y's disappointing typing, switching is difficult. Much more difficult than with the other A Ranks that Zard Y currently sits with. Even the nuking capabilities of Zard Y are only under damaged minimally by Specs Hydra who doesn't have as much trouble switching, doesn't take up a mega slot, and is still in B (whether hydra should be or not is another discussion).
One advantage of Charizard Y's typing is the ability to use STAB fire moves, a trait shared by only a few usable Pokemon in this year's format. Charizard Y does enjoy the benefits of this, but a decently offensive Rotom-H gives the same benefits if you just want a strong way to deal with Aegi/Mawile/Ferro without taking a mega slot. Charizard also is completely walled by two S ranks, some of the most dominant Pokemon in the format. While it shares this trait with its competitor fire type Rotom-H (also being walled by Garchomp and Rotom-H), the trait is not something you look for in a Mega.
I completely agree with Zapdos going to A Rank. Zapdos is a pokemon with pretty balanced stats and excellent typing. Zapdos unfortunately has a rather low move pool on moves it can use, but Zapdos still over comes it and excels. Zapdos is also a pokemon that can play as a Support, Offensive or Defensive role which is handy for what you need for your team.
As a defensive role, it can take hits from threats like Garchomp, Azumarill, Gyarados, Mamoswine, and Talonflame.
Offensively, it can really do heavy STAB electric moves and do great to x2 or x4 weakened by Ice moves with HP ice.
As a supportive role, Zapdos works great as well. SwaggerZapdos is a pretty good set to take out Pokemon like Aegislash that have low health and that mostly run Special Attacking moves. Zapdos with t-wave can also slow the game down for the opponent which is great to.
I would say Char-Y should be a B-Rank, but then what mega deserves to be A-rank?
If we're gonna use the excuse of "Rotom-H is the definitive Fire-type of the meta, so it's an S-rank regardless of how much it trades strengths/weaknesses with Rotom-W", then why would Charizard-Y not be an A-rank, seeing how it's one of the main megas of this meta? Yes, Mega Tyranitar stomps it, and Garchomp's gobbles it up...and Aerodactyl bullies it, but for the most part, if you bypass those guys, it does a fairly good job of keeping a positive match-up. With Ancient Power and Dragon Pulse as breed moves, you can even find yourself with a positive match-up against other Char-Y or Char-X or Talonflame. You can also EV yourself to take banded Brave Birds and Jolly Garchomp Rock Slides. It's not as auto-pilot as it used to be, much like anything else that isn't Mega Kangaskhan, but it's still strong outside of the blatant Rock-type match-up.
Also, if Char-Y's a B rank, then why isn't Mega Mawile already a B-Rank? That thing constantly finds itself checked by the very things it's supposed to check, outside of Kangaskhan.
That same description describes Rotom-H. The only difference is that Rotom-H's offensive abilities are currently more valuable, based on the pokemon that are currently popular, seeing how it can OHKO with Overheat or resist their Steel or surprise Fairy-type STAB (Fairy isn't used that much, so Rotom-H is a great way to have an option for that, admittedly). It still gets creamed by the Rock-types Rotom-W is glad to step up to.
If the meta starts to shift again, the Rotom of the month will shift again. No Rotom form is meta defining like the other S-Ranks are. They only compliment it based on what actually is.
Are my eyes fooling me, Wigglytuff is more than no rank :o
Wiggles finally got some spotlight it wanted *clap*
Wiggles finally got some spotlight it wanted *clap*
Why do you say this as if being a Fire-type doesn't mean anything? What if Rotom-H's Fire-typing helps it out more than Rotom-W's Water-typing in the meta at this stage?
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