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VGC 2015 Viability Rankings - Mark 2

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lucariojr said:
no
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First thing that came to mind for "What on Earth would you use a Mega slot on with a Ninetales..?", ok? xD

MANDIBUZZ FOR D RANK. For all your Spore absorbing, Snarl spamming, Tailwind inducing needs. Also covers Aegislash rather well.
Niche over other Tailwinds is STAB Foul Play, unique typing (If you're using defensive Honchkrow you're doing something horribly wrong), stupidly high bulk, Taunt, free Saftey Goggles thanks to ability, and I guess it has Whirlwind and U-Turn?
Faults include, but not limited to, Terrakion, Bisharp, Thundurus, Mega Venusaur (Leech Seed), Taunt, Milotic, no offensive presence at all against anything that doesn't fear Foul Play, and lower Speed than most other Tailwind mons.
Faces competition from the well-known Tailwind users in Talonflame, Suicune, and Zapdos.
 
Going to try and use a revive on this thread.

Why is Gyarados A-? I know that is was good in VGC 14, but I feel like it ain't that good this year. Sure, it has Intimidate, but for Intimidate I like using Mawile or Landorus-T. It can't really fill the role as a bulky water well, because it is not that bulky, and it's only speed control is T-Wave. It also has that huge weakness to Electric, and Thundurus and Zapdos are so common now that Gyarados really struggles. By Mega evolving it becomes better but it still has its flaws. Dark-typing gives it Fairy- and Fighting-type weakness. That Fairy-type Weakness is really a problem.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gyarados: 176-210 (103.5 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 270-320 (158.8 - 188.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 180-212 (105.8 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 176-210 (103.5 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Meanwhile, Mega Gyarados can't get rid of these guys in less than two rounds, without getting up a D-Dance

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 88-104 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 134-158 (85.3 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 121-144 (60.1 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 180-213 (89.5 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 196 HP / 20 Def Azumarill: 93-110 (46.5 - 55%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery

I am not saying that Gyarados is bad. With the proper support, namely redirection and Fake Out, it can get up a D-Dance and be a real threat. It has been used with some success in a regional, and Se Jun Park won worlds with it in 2014. But it is not A rank material imo. It just has to many things capable of dealing so much damage to it. Without a D-Dance up, it can't do that much damage either. It can't even OHKO Bisharp.

tldr: Mega Gyarados hates fairies and can't do much without a D-Dance set up. Mega and non-mega Gyarados for B/B+
 
Ksh13 said:
Going to try and use a revive on this thread.

Why is Gyarados A-? I know that is was good in VGC 14, but I feel like it ain't that good this year. Sure, it has Intimidate, but for Intimidate I like using Mawile or Landorus-T. It can't really fill the role as a bulky water well, because it is not that bulky, and it's only speed control is T-Wave. It also has that huge weakness to Electric, and Thundurus and Zapdos are so common now that Gyarados really struggles. By Mega evolving it becomes better but it still has its flaws. Dark-typing gives it Fairy- and Fighting-type weakness. That Fairy-type Weakness is really a problem.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gyarados: 176-210 (103.5 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 270-320 (158.8 - 188.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 180-212 (105.8 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 176-210 (103.5 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Meanwhile, Mega Gyarados can't get rid of these guys in less than two rounds, without getting up a D-Dance

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 88-104 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 134-158 (85.3 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 121-144 (60.1 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 180-213 (89.5 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 196 HP / 20 Def Azumarill: 93-110 (46.5 - 55%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery

I am not saying that Gyarados is bad. With the proper support, namely redirection and Fake Out, it can get up a D-Dance and be a real threat. It has been used with some success in a regional, and Se Jun Park won worlds with it in 2014. But it is not A rank material imo. It just has to many things capable of dealing so much damage to it. Without a D-Dance up, it can't do that much damage either. It can't even OHKO Bisharp.

tldr: Mega Gyarados hates fairies and can't do much without a D-Dance set up. Mega and non-mega Gyarados for B/B+
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The thing with Gyara though, is its so damn unpredictable.
Defensive Gyarados with Intimidate and Rocky Helmet is a bitch to run into if you lose your Electric type, and unlike Rotom-W / Suicune / Milotic, it outright giggles at Char-Y's Solarbeam.
Mawile costs a Mega Slot, so that can create issues at times, Lando-T, you might not always want to EQ yourself / might not want the Water/Ice weaknesses, idk.
Icy Wind and T-Wave on Speed control, actually. It's not absurd to see Icy Wind Gyara; damage is shit, yeah, but its not about damage output.

It can very competently run on a double mega core, like Metagross or Blaziken. The typing shift can cause surprise and chaos as well. ie, Rotom-W goes from "Well fuck. Bye Gyarados" to "lol. Goodbye Rotom-W". The base typing repels some checks as well: Mega Mawile, Blaziken (HJK on Mega), Scizor I guess. If you haven't gotten rid of Sylveon yet, don't mega. Its not like Mawile or Altaria where non mega is unusable shit :P

It can't OHKO Bisharp, but what exactly does Bisharp do to Mega Gyara? Even at +1 it's walled to fuck and Knock Off isn't doing much, Sucker Punch is a free DD, and Iron head is tickling both non-mega and Mega for nothing.
Mega does irreversibly poop on its beautiful Water/Flying typing though, yeah. Does gain better secondary STAB (Flying/Water is amazing offesively; but Bounce is shit, sorry, Crunch is better) and walls Aegislash like no other though.

Not used it too much, but I have seen a wide variety of sets and uses; gravely threatened by many of them too. It's a bitch when you don't have an Electric mon on the team. I respect it enough for an A~ rank.
 
I'd like to nominate Golbat for C. Golbat has huge amounts of bulk and many support options including Taunt, Quick Guard, Superfang, Tailwind, and Swagger. It can also heal itself with Roost and deal decent damage with Brave Bird especially on super effective hits. Since Inner Focus allows it to not flinch to Fake Out and Rock Slide and it's huge bulk Golbat almost always gets up tailwind. Golbat's speed is also high enough to naturally outspeed most defensive Rotom forms and a Scarf Lando-T after tailwind. Golbat doesn't appreciate being taunted but can still use Super Fang and Brave Bird after.

Mixed Defenses Golbat Calcs
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Eviolite Golbat in Sun: 153-181 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 52-62 (28.5 - 34%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 103-124 (56.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 143-172 (78.5 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 66-80 (36.2 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 134-162 (73.6 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 75-90 (41.2 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Golbat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 102-122 (46.1 - 55.2%) -- 63.3% chance to 2HKO

0 Atk Golbat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Ludicolo: 134-162 (71.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Golbat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 85-102 (62.9 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Added a battle video because I felt like it- NBAW-WWWW-WW22-7V62
 
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Mega Gardevoir should move up to A:
  • It can make hybrid TR teams possible
  • Produces very strong consistent damage with Hyper Voice even with no SpA investment
  • Can run a very fast set that can demolish entire teams
  • Can be very good before it megas with the Trace ability
  • Can wait for ever to mega evolve and bluff as a non mega pokemon
Gyarados and Gyarados Mega also should not be A:
  • It is not good for Thunder Wave anymore
  • There are a lot more superior Taunt users
  • The only thing it can do decently ok is run a Dragon Dance set
  • It also gets destroyed 1v1 verse all top megas and even several lower rated ones
  • It can run a gimmicky Specs set like in 2012/2013
  • It be a bulky water support but there are a ton more Water types that can do that better
I will add more, but I think this is a good spot to start
 
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Seconding Mega Gard for A

Gardevoir semi TR has been becoming really popular right now. Some people don't expect or just arent prepared for it. Some might say gard is kinda outclassed by sylveon as a hyper voice spammer but it has a lot of merits over sylv.

It's in a different speed tier. A speed tier where it can abuse TR against certain teams but also use its speed outside of TR and outspeed bisharp and other shit. It also obviously has TR itself which sylv doesnt. And it can actually take out amoonguss quickly unlike sylveon.

edit: Actually im gonna second gyara dropping as well. Thundurus being as popular as it is basically drops this things viability a ton. Twave/taunt support sets are pretty outclassed by thundurus. DD sets are also fucked by thundurus and we have a much better DDer in mence this year who also boasts intimidate pre mega and great bulk just like gyara. But a bulky water with intimidate is still cool so i think B+ is pretty fitting.
 
Chenkovsky said:
The first is Mega Gardevoir from B+ to B/B-. Simply put Mega Gardevoir has a really hard time in the current metagame, the majority of the common attackers are Physical which given Mega Gardevoir's poor Defense makes Mega Gardevoir's defensive capabilities really underwhelming. The many common Steel- and Fire-types also give it a lot of problems, as they can sponge Hyper Voice's pretty easily. Wide Guard being on a lot of teams really only compounds this. In terms of being a Fairy-type Mega Gardevoir gets a lot of competition from Sylveon, which has the advantage of not being a Mega. Mega Gardevoir is by no means bad, with Tailwind support it can be a dangerous sweeper and Ally Switch can be incredibly useful, it just isn't a borderline A rank Mon.
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That is from an earlier post. Hybrid/Mid Speed Trick Room isn't really that viable, just because something is popular doesn't mean it is good. Minimum Speed Mega Gardevoir is still faster than 0 Speed neutral Aegislash. So Gardevoir is making itself easier for it's best counter to do just that, counter it. Another major issue I have about Trick Room Mega Gardevoir, why not Cresselia, at least with Cresselia you're pretty much guaranteed a Trick Room. Mega Gardevoir is strong, even with little investment, yes, but it isn't so strong that you still pick up OHKOes. Which for a mon as frail, even with investment, as Mega Gardevoir is important. With offensive investment, Mega Gardevoir is strong but frail, with defensive invest, Mega Gardevoir is mediocre in both offense and defense. B- is the right place for Mega Gardevoir.

Gyarados is the only Pokemon which counters both sun and rain. Support Gyarados stands out for its great typing and support movepool, but Thundurus and these "many superior Taunt users" greatly outclass it. Except the only Taunt users higher than it are Thundurus, Talonflame, and Gengar. Fair enough, with the exception of Talonflame, these are both better Taunt users than Gyarados. Thundurus, is typically better than Gyarados as a support Pokemon, however, Gyarados has a better overall typing. Intimidate also provides good support. Gengar is very frail, so Gyarados has that on it. Gengar offensive match-up is better than support Gyarados', and is much faster, but that's why it's ranked higher. Offensively Gyarados is one of the very few Set-up sweepers which is actually viable, on top of that it isn't reliant on Follow Me/Rage Powder thanks to its typing, natural bulk, and Intimidate. If you're scared of Thundurus you could be real, and run Stone Edge on Gyarados which OHKOes at +1. Or you could just have team support, its not like Thundurus is unbeatable or weak to redirection. The top Megas are Kangaskhan, Metagross, Salamence, and Charizard Y. If losing to Khan was a measure of viability things would look very different, anyway Intimidate is a decent way of making it manageable. Metagross and Salamence aren't clean cut, Gyarados can actually be pretty useful against both. Zard Y is straight up beaten by Gyarados. So claiming Gyarados has a bad match-up against them is bullshit. 1v1s are irrelevant as this is doubles. You know what has bad match up against those mega though, Mega Gardevoir, they can all OHKO and/or take a hits from it. DD isn't entirely outclassed by Mence, because of Gyarados' typing. DD Gyarados can set up on rain, something Mega Salamence wished it could. There are a lot of other bulky Water-types which can provide support, but none of them can do what Gyarados does, because of its typing it isn't fucked by Grass-types, and no other Water-type has its movepool. A- is the right place.

I'm not massively opposed to Mega Gyarados moving down to B+, but I would prefer it to be Ranked with Gyarados. Because of the differences in their typing Mega Gyarados is one of the few Pokemon which can afford not to Mega immediately. So in certain match-ups Mega Gyarados ends up just being played as Gyarados. So the loss of the item isn't great, and isn't as diverse. However, it much stronger and bulkier, so its swings and roundabouts.
 
I think Mega Gardevoir could move to B or stay where it is. Gardevoir has a ton of moves for its fourth move slot including Sub, Ally Switch, WoW, Encore, TR, Imprison, Taunt, Encore, Screens, TWave, and Helping Hand. The hybrid TR M Garde Should always be paired with Amoonguss and dark types and should not always use TR especially against Aegislash but TR can win games sometimes. M Garde in general requires tons of support from its partners to beat things it can't handle. The reason M Gard could move up is because of how much pressure it puts on the opponent to attack it.

Replays of TR hybrid: XAZW-WWWW-WW22-CGEP, T5LG-WWWW-WW22-CYG7
 
Salamence A -> A+
i'm just about certain salamence is the best mega evolution of the format, boasting superior bulk, speed, and comparable power to mega kangaskhan with a better ability pre-mega in intimidate. not only that, mence also has the ability to run many different sets including DD, DD with roost, all-out physical, mixed with double edge+hyper voice, or pure special, whereas kangaskhan really only runs 2 sets, and both of them offer the same coverage. mence just does so many things and its popularity has definitely risen over the last few weeks

comparison of power:
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 144-171 (79.5 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 151-178 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gengar A+ -> A
gengar has fallen out of favor recently as the anti-lead pokemon of the format; its numbers are now about an even split between focus sash and gengarite. still though, gengar is extremely threatening with perish song and many teams aren't able to appropriately deal with it, and no matter how much of a "gimmick" you think perish trap is, you can still certainly lose to it if you aren't prepared.

Talonflame A+ -> A
talonflame really does not appreciate the shift from vgc 14 to 15 introducing a heap of new bulky waters into the metagame, nor does it appreciate landorus being the most popular non-mega evolution. talonflame simply has poor matchups against a lot of the metagame as well, like heatran, landorus-t, suicune, rotom-wash, mega-salamence, so on. it even has trouble with pokemon it should be able to ohko with flare blitz like bisharp and aegislash due to their ability to use sucker and king's shield respectively. looking past all that, talonflame also defeats itself via recoil 18.5% of the time according to global link stats. still talonflame is the only thing in the game with gale wings and has a very nice support movepool including taunt, will-o, tailwind, and quick guard, so i don't think it should be immediately discounted

Arcanine A- -> A
arcanine occupies a very interesting niche; being able to debuff from both ends of the spectrum with combinations of snarl, intimidate, and will-o-wisp. arcanine has to compete with rotom-h and heatran for the role of defensive fire type but with snarl/intimidate specifically means that it stands out on its own as being good enough for the job. not to mention it also has semi reliable recovery in morning sun, which is unique to it
 
yeah, i only saw a couple of bisharp and no talonflames that i can remember. i kinda left my notebook at the hotel so i can't confirm that 100% lol
 
Synral said:
Salamence A -> A+
i'm just about certain salamence is the best mega evolution of the format, boasting superior bulk, speed, and comparable power to mega kangaskhan with a better ability pre-mega in intimidate. not only that, mence also has the ability to run many different sets including DD, DD with roost, all-out physical, mixed with double edge+hyper voice, or pure special, whereas kangaskhan really only runs 2 sets, and both of them offer the same coverage. mence just does so many things and its popularity has definitely risen over the last few weeks

comparison of power:
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 144-171 (79.5 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 151-178 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gengar A+ -> A
gengar has fallen out of favor recently as the anti-lead pokemon of the format; its numbers are now about an even split between focus sash and gengarite. still though, gengar is extremely threatening with perish song and many teams aren't able to appropriately deal with it, and no matter how much of a "gimmick" you think perish trap is, you can still certainly lose to it if you aren't prepared.

Talonflame A+ -> A
talonflame really does not appreciate the shift from vgc 14 to 15 introducing a heap of new bulky waters into the metagame, nor does it appreciate landorus being the most popular non-mega evolution. talonflame simply has poor matchups against a lot of the metagame as well, like heatran, landorus-t, suicune, rotom-wash, mega-salamence, so on. it even has trouble with pokemon it should be able to ohko with flare blitz like bisharp and aegislash due to their ability to use sucker and king's shield respectively. looking past all that, talonflame also defeats itself via recoil 18.5% of the time according to global link stats. still talonflame is the only thing in the game with gale wings and has a very nice support movepool including taunt, will-o, tailwind, and quick guard, so i don't think it should be immediately discounted

Arcanine A- -> A
arcanine occupies a very interesting niche; being able to debuff from both ends of the spectrum with combinations of snarl, intimidate, and will-o-wisp. arcanine has to compete with rotom-h and heatran for the role of defensive fire type but with snarl/intimidate specifically means that it stands out on its own as being good enough for the job. not to mention it also has semi reliable recovery in morning sun, which is unique to it
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I gotta say, I am actually thirding most of these. Salamence has lately developed into being a very big threat. It is now number 7 on the pokemon-gl statistics, and it has almost never been in top 12 before. I am aware of that this is a lot due to the fact that the japanese sand core with special Salamence and T-Tar+Excadrill (Also because Cybertron used that core in a team). However, if this is so popular that it gives Mence so much usage on Battle Spot, it must certainly be good. Mence has that thing with how it is difficult to predict the set, especially as an even physical-special split on a team is not ordinary in VGC.

Gengar has indeed fallen, the lead set Cybertron used is really not used as much nowadays, and is not really amazing. Mega Gengar is really dangerous though, as both PerishTrap and DisableEncore can give you a loss if you are unprepared. Gengar is very good, but not A+ anymore.

Talonflame could also easily drop to A rank. It is indeed true that the appearance of bulky waters and Landorus-T in the VGC 15 metagame has hurt it. With Intimidates and Scalds and Rock Slides all around the block, it has a tough time getting to do much. It does have priority Tailwind, but there is way better Tailwind setters out there, like Zapdos, Togekiss, and Suicune. Bulky Pokemon are better as they won't just get a Fake Out+super effective hit to get them sent straight out turn one. It does still have a rather powerful priority Brave Bird, which is really nice to deal with Conkeldurr and Mega Venusaur. But then you find out, Adamant Mega Mence does that even better with Return, which has no recoil. Talonflame can also pack a variaty of different moves, like WoW, Quick Guard, and Taunt to suit slightly different roles. Gale Wings BB and some variation in its sets makes Talonflame A, but the trends of VGC 15 compared to 14 makes it drop below A+.

Arcanine is one of those mons that go from being this wierd niche thing to be one of the most talked about, and interesting Pokemon in the meta. It is extremely (No E-Speed pun intended) versatile, capable of playing two very different and very good roles. The most popular would be the bulky set, which is one of the best sets out there to cripple hard hitting mons on both the physical and special side. It faces competition from Entei in this role, but the possibility for recovery and/or priority makes Arcanine be the bulky Fire-type of choice for most people (although I must admit I am more of an Entei person). Bulky Arcanine actully has some versatility in itself, having the possibility of being physical or special. The second way to run Arcanine, offensive with a Choice Band or Life Orb, also works very well. It has a major offensive pressure, and can catch people expecting bulky Arcanine off guard. Some people also like to run a hybrid between these two, with a Life Orb set with one move from the bulky set like WoW or Snarl, and the rest offensive. So even if the opposing Arcanine uses Close Combat, or takes LO recoil, it could still throw a WoW at you when you least expect it. Arcanine is a really great mon overall, definetly A rank for me.

Bisharp A --> A-
Now, to make this post even longer, I suggest we move Bisharp down to A-. There is simply no denying that Bisharp is not what it used to be early in the meta. It has fallen from fourth to like elleventh on the pokemon-gl statistics, and sees almost no use by top players in tournaments. Bisharp used to be the go-to way to beat Sylveon, and also to stop Initmidate from being a problem. Sylveon is easily dealt with by many things, such as Aegislash, Heatran, Arcanine, and Entei. Heck, it even dies to a spread Hyper Voice. It is one of few things that can deal with Initmidate, but Initmidate can be played around, and many teams only have one or two physical attackers anyways (at least mine do usually). Also, the main Intimidate threat is Landorus-T. Leading of with special attackers that can beat Landorus is a way to beat it, you can't really have a team nowadays without an Ice-type move. Lando can easily be EV'd to survive +1 LO Sucker Punch. Who says it has to stay in on a Sucker Punch anyways? Just switch out with Landorus-T, and have its teammate start racking up damage on Bisharp. Bisharp is also allergic to burns, they just render him useless. The only thing I would use Bisharp for, is to have a good way to deal a ton of damage to Cress in one hit, although I prefer Hydreigon to do that work for me tbh. Bisharp is still somewhat of a threat, but the metagame is slowly moving away from Bisharp, so send it down to A-.

Edit: 400th post, yay ^_^
 
i think cresselia could move up to A+ as well because of the great support it provides. being the best TR setter in the game, godly bulk and support movepool (but mostly trick room, honestly), and access to ice beam to help check top threats are the main selling points, and it has the added bonus of having wonderful synergy with other top pokemon like charizard-y, landorus-t, heatran, terrakion, etc. the lack of offensive presence can be mitigated just because psychic+ice beam hits a lot of threats for SE damage, the fact that its bulk is already so impressive that it makes offensive investment feasible, and of course helping hand. HP ground cresselia is also a good stop to heatran (it also helps keep subsword from sitting on you), even if it doesn't straight up OHKO.

part of me wants to move rhyperior up, but i know it's kinda just an anti-meta trend that will probably die out by the time nats rolls around. then again, it would be a great way to troll user: jio............................
 
lucariojr said:
part of me wants to move rhyperior up, but i know it's kinda just an anti-meta trend that will probably die out by the time nats rolls around. then again, it would be a great way to troll user: jio............................
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Yeah I noticed a ton of rhyperior usage too. I think it's partly because it's just a great trick room mon, and is a good replacement for lando-t for the "spam rock slide" role. Having a trick room "mode" has been growing pretty popular, and rhyperior + cresselia are good together.
 
made a lot of changes to the list, mainly concerning lower tiers. i'll provide reasoning for changes made to B+ and above and maybe a few beneath that.

upper tier changes:

Milotic B -> B+ : suicune+bisharp fusion. might not hit hard w/o a boost, but it's still useful.
Thundurus-T B -> A- : incredibly powerful, decently fast, and good coverage. has psychic to hit m-venu, giving it the edge over choice zapdos. immunity to electric is also nice.
Scizor B+ -> B- : fall from grace, mainly because of megas in general. still good, but remember knock off is better than bug bite always.
Entei B+ -> A- : bulky, decently strong, can shut down sun teams and steels. fire is good defensive typing. 50% chance to burn with main STAB. shallow movepool, but has what it needs.
Clefairy/Clefable A- -> A : redirection is very strong; they're probably A+ tier lol
Gyarados A- -> B+ : crippling flaws in electric/rock weak, faces competition from suicune and thundurus-i. still great support and/or setup sweeper.
Conkeldurr A- -> B+ : hasn't been doing too hot lately, especially with the rise in aegislash and megamence. still wildly powerful with iron fist LO hammer arm.
Scrafty B+ -> A- : amazing support, knock off is superb, has neat options in super fang, taunt, etc. fairy and flying weakness keeps it from being at the very top though.
Tyranitar B -> B+ : sand has been gaining popularity lately and the rise in cresselia and m-mence has helped its cause.
Breloom A- -> B+ : rather weak without superpower (which means you probably give up mach punch), is slow/frail, but spore can and will screw you over.

lower tier changes:

Gallade-Mega C -> C- : terrakion/virizion/mega lucario (!)/mienshao is better.
Scizor-Mega B -> C
Landorus-I C -> C+ : special landorus-i is still pretty good, just don't use it without ttar.
Lucario C+ -> C : lucario is back to being bad :(
Hitmontop C+ -> C
Gardevoir C -> C- : cresselia is better.
Gallade C -> C-
Sceptile-Mega C -> D : please don't.
Pinsir-Mega C- -> D
Lopunny-Mega C- -> C : fine, this thing's a little better than i thought it was, but not by much. if you build AROUND this thing you need to stop.
Liepard C+ -> C-
Venusaur C+ -> B forms a formidable duo with zard.
Vivillion D -> E : please don't.
Beedrill-Mega D -> E : please don't.
Mienshao D -> C
Staraptor C+ -> C-
Sharpedo-Mega D -> E : please don't.
Swampert-Mega C+ -> C : swift swim activates the turn after you evolve, which single-handedly makes it pretty bad, honestly.
Raikou B -> B-
Cloyster D -> E
Metagross added to C-
Manectric-Mega B -> B- : fast intimidate shuffling is usually done by landog, but mane has different coverage. using your mega slot makes it less worthwhile though.
Sableye B- -> C : this thing's stats are complete garbage.
Slowbro-Mega C- -> D
Ninetales D -> C-
Trevenant C- -> D
Blastoise-Mega C+ -> C
Dusclops C- -> D : needs helping hand back.
Musharna C- -> D : cresselia is better.
Rhydon C+ -> C-
Dragalgae C+ -> C
Tornadus C -> C+ : hurricane is pretty nice for rain teams. if it had flying gem and defiant it would be A+ tier.
Salamence C+ -> C
Tornadus-T added to C- rank
Mega Latios / Mega Latias added to D rank
Gardevoir-Mega B- -> B : it's like sylveon only faster and uses a mega slot. doesn't offer much in the way of synergy outside of dragon immunity. for hyper offense teams, this is a worthy tradeoff.
Heracross-Mega added to D rank
Nidoking added to C- Rank

let me know if you spot any inconsistencies with this list and the OP.
 
lucariojr said:
Metagross added to C-
Tornadus-T added to C- rank
Mega Latios / Mega Latias added to D rank
Nidoking added to C- Rank
Click to expand...

What about non-mega Latias?
Thing has support out the wazoo with Tailwind, Icy Wind, Thunder Wave, Heal Pulse, Helping Hand, Screens, and Charm. Plus we have non-Mega Latios, and the Mega Lati twins ranked so... why not? :P
Meaning, it gives (almost) every bit of Speed control you could ever want, decent offense with a quick DM, and few things are as funny as Heal Pulse + King's Shield. Still probably the best non-Fairy Dragon smasher.
As for things like Cress, Latias has MUCH better Speed, Tailwind, Heal Pulse, Recover (Remember, Moonlight has half the PP and is complete shit against Sand/Rain/Hail) and Charm can quickly render things like Terrakion or Landog useless.
I think she's just a very nice, pretty unique Doubles-centric supporter that at least deserves to exist on a viability list somewhere. ~C is where I'd splash it; it's not as bad as D rank shit like Noivern or Jumpluff nor does it cost a Mega slot. But imo, still lower than Latios due to being rather passive.

Oh and I guess slash Nidoqueen with Nidoking - they do pretty much the same thing with the same typing and coverage, it's just a "bulk vs power/speed" spit same as mega Lati twins.
 
lucariojr said:
made a lot of changes to the list, mainly concerning lower tiers. i'll provide reasoning for changes made to B+ and above and maybe a few beneath that.

upper tier changes:

Milotic B -> B+ : suicune+bisharp fusion. might not hit hard w/o a boost, but it's still useful.
Thundurus-T B -> A- : incredibly powerful, decently fast, and good coverage. has psychic to hit m-venu, giving it the edge over choice zapdos. immunity to electric is also nice.
Scizor B+ -> B- : fall from grace, mainly because of megas in general. still good, but remember knock off is better than bug bite always.
Entei B+ -> A- : bulky, decently strong, can shut down sun teams and steels. fire is good defensive typing. 50% chance to burn with main STAB. shallow movepool, but has what it needs.
Clefairy/Clefable A- -> A : redirection is very strong; they're probably A+ tier lol
Gyarados A- -> B+ : crippling flaws in electric/rock weak, faces competition from suicune and thundurus-i. still great support and/or setup sweeper.
Conkeldurr A- -> B+ : hasn't been doing too hot lately, especially with the rise in aegislash and megamence. still wildly powerful with iron fist LO hammer arm.
Scrafty B+ -> A- : amazing support, knock off is superb, has neat options in super fang, taunt, etc. fairy and flying weakness keeps it from being at the very top though.
Tyranitar B -> B+ : sand has been gaining popularity lately and the rise in cresselia and m-mence has helped its cause.
Breloom A- -> B+ : rather weak without superpower (which means you probably give up mach punch), is slow/frail, but spore can and will screw you over.
Click to expand...
Finding myself happy with a lot of this. Entei for A- is something I have been thinking on for quite a while, just didn't have the guts to nominate it. Conkeldurr really hates the rise of Mence, not really seeing it get used at all.

With the rise of sand, I must say that I would like to see Excadrill move up to A-. The sand sweeper set is extremely dangerous, and compared to a different weather sweeper, Ludicolo, it actually beats Talonflame when sand is up. also, if I am going to compare it more with Ludicolo, Ludicolo has base 90 SpA. Excadrill has base 135 Atk. That is a massive difference in damage output. Yes, Scald gets a boost by rain, but Exca's eq with LO hits aboutly as hard on Kang as Ludi's Scald in rain w/o LO. I am not saying that Ludicolo is worse than Excadrill, I know that rain is easier to pull of than sand, I am just saying I don't feel like there should be a gap of two ranks.
 
Ksh13 said:
Finding myself happy with a lot of this. Entei for A- is something I have been thinking on for quite a while, just didn't have the guts to nominate it. Conkeldurr really hates the rise of Mence, not really seeing it get used at all.

With the rise of sand, I must say that I would like to see Excadrill move up to A-. The sand sweeper set is extremely dangerous, and compared to a different weather sweeper, Ludicolo, it actually beats Talonflame when sand is up. also, if I am going to compare it more with Ludicolo, Ludicolo has base 90 SpA. Excadrill has base 135 Atk. That is a massive difference in damage output. Yes, Scald gets a boost by rain, but Exca's eq with LO hits aboutly as hard on Kang as Ludi's Scald in rain w/o LO. I am not saying that Ludicolo is worse than Excadrill, I know that rain is easier to pull of than sand, I am just saying I don't feel like there should be a gap of two ranks.
Click to expand...
Ludicolo is used more as a bulky special tank than a sweeper and does this job darn well.
 
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Ksh13 said:
With the rise of sand, I must say that I would like to see Excadrill move up to A-. The sand sweeper set is extremely dangerous, and compared to a different weather sweeper, Ludicolo, it actually beats Talonflame when sand is up. also, if I am going to compare it more with Ludicolo, Ludicolo has base 90 SpA. Excadrill has base 135 Atk. That is a massive difference in damage output. Yes, Scald gets a boost by rain, but Exca's eq with LO hits aboutly as hard on Kang as Ludi's Scald in rain w/o LO. I am not saying that Ludicolo is worse than Excadrill, I know that rain is easier to pull of than sand, I am just saying I don't feel like there should be a gap of two ranks.
Click to expand...
Excadrill also has Scarf or Swords Dance with Mold Breaker sets that can be very threatening without the need of sand support.
 
Two changes that I'd really like to see on top of what lucariojr made:

Talonflame: From A to A-. While its still popular on the GBU and has some great immediate offensive presence, I think Talonflame has too hard a time against the rest of the meta to be A rank. There is no shortage of Rock Slide and Intimidate users in this format to drag Talonflame down, among other near cold stops like Heatran and Rotom-W.

Mawile: From A to A- or lower: 2015 has not been kind to Mawile at all. Fire and Ground-type moves are everywhere. I feel like its gone from a top 2 or 3 mega in VGC 2014 to a more niche choice and its A ranking is sort of leftover from last season. I would put it in B+ or maybe A-
 
ok, made a few more changes to the list b/c meta shifts/etc. we've been discussing this list a lot lately so you should join #smogonvgc to get in on the conversation !!

Salamence-Mega A+ -> S : in the words of user: Jio , "I'm not saying Mega Salamence could be the next Mega Kangaskhan, but Mega Salamence is the next Mega Kangaskhan." mence fits the S description by easily busting jaws with powerful flying type moves, is flexible, and doesn't require too much team support to be effective (clefairy). if nothing else, this is a change that should be discussed imo.
Mawile-Mega A -> B+ : as mantyke said, maw is definitely lagging this season, mainly because there are more fire types than just rotom-h now.
Talonflame A -> A- : lots of utility, but still not as good as it used to be.
Clefairy/Clefable A -> A+
Togekiss A- -> B+ : clefs kinda leave it in the dust.

Hariama B+ -> B : more or less the same as mega mawile.
Landorus-I C+ -> B-
Rhyperior C+ -> B- : probably one of the better trick room abusers right now with weakness policy+solid rock and good dual STAB.
Aerodactyl B- -> C+
Mamoswine B+ -> B : this thing is way too frail but very strength.
Gyarados B+ -> B
Heracross added to C rank
Latias added to C rank
Raichu B -> B-
Kingdra B -> B-
Gothitelle B+ -> B : more or less the same as mega mawile.
Swampert B+ -> B : its only decent stats can let it down sometimes.
Scizor B- -> C+
 
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