I mean Serapis said he is updating some stuff and trying to figure out what's bad with the the current rankings (example dropping hariyama) so it'll take a bit to do completely.
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VGC 2016 Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Serapis
- Start date
- Status
uh... the thing with Rotom-W vs Gastrodon is like the Char-Y vs Heatran debacle: they just wall each other, depending on the set(s).
gastrodon is really good though, don't take me the wrong way; I had a ton of success with its eternal rival Swampert.
S: Support Pokemon in this tier can easily create free turns for their teammates without creating clear openings for the opponent.
From the description given for S rank support Pokemon I am inclined that Smeargle might actually deserve a spot here. Dark void, protect, tailwind Smeargle is easily one of the best, if not the best support pokemon in VGC 2016. Dark Void creates free turns like nobodies business, Tailwind is a phenomenal support move and protect insures that it can deal with fake out users like Mega Kanghaskan. and It's only real counter is magic guard, a relatively uncommon ability this season.
From the description given for S rank support Pokemon I am inclined that Smeargle might actually deserve a spot here. Dark void, protect, tailwind Smeargle is easily one of the best, if not the best support pokemon in VGC 2016. Dark Void creates free turns like nobodies business, Tailwind is a phenomenal support move and protect insures that it can deal with fake out users like Mega Kanghaskan. and It's only real counter is magic guard, a relatively uncommon ability this season.
I don't believe smeargle is S material.Dark void has like a 64% chance to hit both opponents.It is a very good support for xerneas but can be shutdown easily unless for a moody speed boost.Scarf smeargle kangaskhan Or crobat are a bit harder to stop but don't have the setup opportunities of xerneas. But smeargle is really good(annoyingly good #banDV) and is deserving of A.
I don't really see Smeargle as S rank due to a number of reasons. First off, due to how common it is, all teams (should) have a way to beat it. Lum Crobat with Taunt, anything with Protect+Whimsicott with Tailwind, or Lum users such as Rayquaza that can KO it. It also has a huge problem with accuracy, as CirclesAreRound pointed out, it has a 64% chance of putting both Pokemon to sleep. That's pretty bad tbh. The best way to run Smeargle is possibly to pair it with a Tailwind user, although even then you can lose if your opponent has a Fake Out user and predicts correctly. I don't really know why you bring up Magic Guard, I would assume you are talking about Magic Bounce. It still is a terrifying support Pokemon though, although how unreliable it is makes it deserve nothing more than A imo.
The thing about Smeargle is: the relative power level of the meta has increased, but not Smeargle itself. The past two years saw only a handful of Smeargles top cut anything worth mentioning (like, you can count the number of teams that made top cut in a major tournament with your hands) and nothing was really done about Dark Void. That said, AZ has mentioned the fact that TPCi is keeping tabs on Dark Void and will make a ban if needed, so of it actually becomes the grim spectre of KOs everyone assumes it is...
Comcerning Gastrodon: it needs a positive Special Attack nature to have a 50% chance to ohko 4hp Primal G, and can usually 5HKO 252/0 Primal K (calc is assuming unboosted though) who gets a 3HKO back.
Concerning Infernape: I did try it as an alternative to Liepard, but was unimpressed, especially with the offenses. Which seem even more lackluster this year: ferrothorn and dialga can get hit for SE damage... And that is mostly it. On top of that they reduce the effectiveness of Infernape, making them even rougher to use. As for the supportive moves: I do not think having a support movepool that contains the highlights of Liepard and Meowstic-M is enough to justify the use, especially since those two get Prankster.
Comcerning Gastrodon: it needs a positive Special Attack nature to have a 50% chance to ohko 4hp Primal G, and can usually 5HKO 252/0 Primal K (calc is assuming unboosted though) who gets a 3HKO back.
Concerning Infernape: I did try it as an alternative to Liepard, but was unimpressed, especially with the offenses. Which seem even more lackluster this year: ferrothorn and dialga can get hit for SE damage... And that is mostly it. On top of that they reduce the effectiveness of Infernape, making them even rougher to use. As for the supportive moves: I do not think having a support movepool that contains the highlights of Liepard and Meowstic-M is enough to justify the use, especially since those two get Prankster.
True but I do prefer infernapes offensive presence over meowstic-M.I do want to try out liepard because of STAB
foul play being strong in meta filled with Pokemon having really high attack stats.
Thunderbolt doesn't OHKO Primal Kyogre and surf is a bad option for something in a doubles meta game, especially when talking about a mon that's primarily physical.
HOWEVER, Waterfall OHKOs Primal Groudon however and Dragon Ascent almost OHKOs Primal Kyogre iirc which is really nice. This as well as canceling weather effects is a really big and important thing for regular Rayquaza alone, and then you go into Mega Rayquaza and your only cons are not being able to hit some of the steel types and having trouble with Xerneas and Yveltal, which it very heavily dents anyway. This should make it S- imo, but S would be putting Rayquaza in the same rank as Mega Kangaskhan which isn't necessarily accurate because of Kangaskhan's rather neat supportive features.
I would also like to make some noms.
Xerneas S -> A+
This doesn't really fit the category of an S rank mon. It has far too many flaws and although I have said in the past that this definitely deserves S, I've come to realize that it really doesn't. Most of the meta isn't that influenced by Xerneas as I'm pretty sure things like Mawile and the Primals aren't just overused af because of Xerneas, but simply have checking Xerneas as a bonus to the many great things that they already have.
All Mewtwo forms except Mewtwo Y -> D
These things don't do anything ever. They deal completely unnoticeable damage and tend to be completely harmless to all opponents. Everytime they're out on the field, they are a huge momentum suck because you can't get anything done. They're a gigantic waste of an uber slot and should not be used ._.
Mega Mewtwo Y B- -> C or C-
This thing barely has a niche in being both the most powerful special attacker and having an immunity to Dark Void (I guess?????), and that's all. Most powerful special attacker really isn't saying much though because its STAB sucks and its coverage options are rather small, not to mention its absolutely poor bulk.
Like 90% of B- and below to just be unranked or like D or something
Most of these are like absolute trash :S
to name a few specifically:
Zekrom -> B
This still doesn't have a lot of usage but it beats Primal Kyogre and Mega Rayquaza easily if running Scarf. I don't think anything beats these two nearly as well as Zekrom does, which is really big considering how very viable and common they are. It faces some problems with Primal Groudon, yes, but a team doesn't consist of 1 pokemon; you can put more checks to Primal Groudon on your team.
Mega Mawile -> S-
Amazing coverage with a monstrous attack stat gives your team really big problems. Unless you have a Primal Groudon you are not going to win very easily against this little fucker. It hits like 50% of what's ranked right now for an OHKO with at least one of its moves, and both of its main attacking moves get boosted by Auras. It also cannot be hit well by like almost everything, really just excluding the Primals and some other exceptions.
Mega Lop -> UR
lol what is this thing even
Ho-oh A- -> A+
This thing needs more attention. Not a lot of teams are properly prepared for the new Smogon Burd, as it dents everything excluding Primal Groudon (which gets walled anyway unless it's a Stone Edge/Rock Slide version). It's not A- because that would be putting it below Mega Gengar/Cresselia
Mega Gengar -> B
Please no. This thing is not what it was in previous VGC things at all. It gets OHKOd by everything except Mega Kangaskhan and I guess Mega Mawile, but it has to use Will-o-wisp against them instead of attacking. It's a generally OK mon, but seriously this is not A+.
Talonflame -> C
This thing is not A+ either. You can think "oh hey this is probably good because of Trick Room and Tailwind everywhere and it gets Quick Guard and stuff" but you'd really just be wrong. Everything under a certain condition like Trick Room/Tailwind is not going to get as badly molested by Brave Bird as things did in the past, like for instance: Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, Mega Mawile, Mega Kangaskhan - all of these are found on TR a lot, and none of these take a lot from Brave Bird. They really just fucking OHKO the bird and move on.
I feel that there's more to be said, but I think that these are the most important and I shouldn't be flooding you with things to consider.
HOWEVER, Waterfall OHKOs Primal Groudon however and Dragon Ascent almost OHKOs Primal Kyogre iirc which is really nice. This as well as canceling weather effects is a really big and important thing for regular Rayquaza alone, and then you go into Mega Rayquaza and your only cons are not being able to hit some of the steel types and having trouble with Xerneas and Yveltal, which it very heavily dents anyway. This should make it S- imo, but S would be putting Rayquaza in the same rank as Mega Kangaskhan which isn't necessarily accurate because of Kangaskhan's rather neat supportive features.
I would also like to make some noms.
Xerneas S -> A+
This doesn't really fit the category of an S rank mon. It has far too many flaws and although I have said in the past that this definitely deserves S, I've come to realize that it really doesn't. Most of the meta isn't that influenced by Xerneas as I'm pretty sure things like Mawile and the Primals aren't just overused af because of Xerneas, but simply have checking Xerneas as a bonus to the many great things that they already have.
All Mewtwo forms except Mewtwo Y -> D
These things don't do anything ever. They deal completely unnoticeable damage and tend to be completely harmless to all opponents. Everytime they're out on the field, they are a huge momentum suck because you can't get anything done. They're a gigantic waste of an uber slot and should not be used ._.
Mega Mewtwo Y B- -> C or C-
This thing barely has a niche in being both the most powerful special attacker and having an immunity to Dark Void (I guess?????), and that's all. Most powerful special attacker really isn't saying much though because its STAB sucks and its coverage options are rather small, not to mention its absolutely poor bulk.
Like 90% of B- and below to just be unranked or like D or something
Most of these are like absolute trash :S
to name a few specifically:
Giratina-A
Goodra*
Clefable**
Conkeldurr**
Lugia
Scizor**
Cherrim
Kyurem-B**
Blissey*
Chansey*
Golduck**
*these are literally unviable
**100% outclassed by something else
Goodra*
Clefable**
Conkeldurr**
Lugia
Scizor**
Cherrim
Kyurem-B**
Blissey*
Chansey*
Golduck**
*these are literally unviable
**100% outclassed by something else
Zekrom -> B
This still doesn't have a lot of usage but it beats Primal Kyogre and Mega Rayquaza easily if running Scarf. I don't think anything beats these two nearly as well as Zekrom does, which is really big considering how very viable and common they are. It faces some problems with Primal Groudon, yes, but a team doesn't consist of 1 pokemon; you can put more checks to Primal Groudon on your team.
Mega Mawile -> S-
Amazing coverage with a monstrous attack stat gives your team really big problems. Unless you have a Primal Groudon you are not going to win very easily against this little fucker. It hits like 50% of what's ranked right now for an OHKO with at least one of its moves, and both of its main attacking moves get boosted by Auras. It also cannot be hit well by like almost everything, really just excluding the Primals and some other exceptions.
Mega Lop -> UR
lol what is this thing even
Ho-oh A- -> A+
This thing needs more attention. Not a lot of teams are properly prepared for the new Smogon Burd, as it dents everything excluding Primal Groudon (which gets walled anyway unless it's a Stone Edge/Rock Slide version). It's not A- because that would be putting it below Mega Gengar/Cresselia
Mega Gengar -> B
Please no. This thing is not what it was in previous VGC things at all. It gets OHKOd by everything except Mega Kangaskhan and I guess Mega Mawile, but it has to use Will-o-wisp against them instead of attacking. It's a generally OK mon, but seriously this is not A+.
Talonflame -> C
This thing is not A+ either. You can think "oh hey this is probably good because of Trick Room and Tailwind everywhere and it gets Quick Guard and stuff" but you'd really just be wrong. Everything under a certain condition like Trick Room/Tailwind is not going to get as badly molested by Brave Bird as things did in the past, like for instance: Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, Mega Mawile, Mega Kangaskhan - all of these are found on TR a lot, and none of these take a lot from Brave Bird. They really just fucking OHKO the bird and move on.
I feel that there's more to be said, but I think that these are the most important and I shouldn't be flooding you with things to consider.
Rayquaza doesnt come close to ohkoing kyogre with thunderbolt. That said, A is a bit low for how metagame defining it is.
However, since I'm here, I might as well post some brief thoughts on the viability rankings
(In no order within the ranks)
S Rank
Kyogre up from S-. I don't think it makes a lot of sense for Kyogre to be on a tier underneath Xerneas Groudon PDon given how metagame defining and powerful it is. Not sure what else I have to say about this.
A+ Rank
Smeargle up from A because the sheer pressure of dark void + gamechanging boosts from moody can take control of the game really early on (and being probably the best mon to set up Xerneas with). Not S because of some inconsistencies and number of ways to get around it (and it's most certainly not a self sufficient mon). It's a scary mon to see in team preview however, and its ability to very quickly decide a game means it can mindgame you very hard from there.
Mega Ray up from A and could go up to S- potentially as people work around its added mega restriction. It's just super hard to wall and provides added weather control, but also dies p fast.
Mega Mence up from A because it's super splashable and checks a number of important threats + Intimidate from base forme.
Talonflame and Cress stay. Cress's field control is really strong and Talonflame actually has good offensive pressure unlike Crobat, and still provides good speed + priority control/somewhat safe lead vs Smeargle + Xerneas or annoying stuff like Gengar + Whimsicott, even if it does die very quickly to a lot of things (not necessarily the biggest issue in this meta though because things are often expendable and talonflame does get its job done quite often before dying). Talonflame could possibly move down to A however.
A Rank
Ho-Oh up from A- due to its ability to hold its own against the deadly duo of xern + groudon and synergizes with basically every S tier Uber or Mega Rayquaza, but not A+ because its damage output isn't that great.
Ferrothorn up from A because beating Kyogre Xern is p big, but its Fire weakness and lack of actual supporting moves + rather specific offensive presence prevents it from going up further. Speed isn't exactly great either and relies heavily on TR.
Mega Gengar down from A+ but it's still a good enough mon w/ its shadow tag shenanigans. It's just not A+ because it doesnt have the power or bulk of your typical mega in this format. Speed of the format renders Perish Trap a bit weak, which reduces Gengar's options to more of just being a singler target disabler/random Skill Swapper/I got cheesed by HP Water Gengar + Kyogre LOL.
Mega Mawile down from A+ because it relies pretty heavily on Trick Room as its speed sucks and its bulk isn't that great. Groudon being everywhere doesn't do it any favors.
A- Rank
Lando-T up from B+ cuz it's still a general goodmon. Intimidate is still godly in this meta with all the Defiants and Competitive mons dying out and heavy spdef tanks to take advantage of it (+2 Xern Ogre Ho-Oh), and Lando still has the stats and typing to make good use of it (especially as the only non mega evolving intimidator so it's pretty much your most consistent source)
Dialga could go down due to several downsides (Steel type that doesnt resist fairy, still weak to Groudon, offensive presence not that great), but it doesn't have a lot of losing matchups either so idk
Palkia stays here because quad resist to Fire and Water is huge and lets it set up TR safely on special groudon/kyogre whereas stuff like Cress would get chunked very hard. 4mss is awful though and it really wishes it could do more with its awesome movepool
Amoonguss from B+ because it is relatively splashable and also nobody carries Safety Goggles anymore. Dies faster from all the eruption/dragon ascents but at the same time a single Spore is more devastating in this meta than in the previous years.
However, since I'm here, I might as well post some brief thoughts on the viability rankings
(In no order within the ranks)
S Rank
Kyogre up from S-. I don't think it makes a lot of sense for Kyogre to be on a tier underneath Xerneas Groudon PDon given how metagame defining and powerful it is. Not sure what else I have to say about this.
A+ Rank
Smeargle up from A because the sheer pressure of dark void + gamechanging boosts from moody can take control of the game really early on (and being probably the best mon to set up Xerneas with). Not S because of some inconsistencies and number of ways to get around it (and it's most certainly not a self sufficient mon). It's a scary mon to see in team preview however, and its ability to very quickly decide a game means it can mindgame you very hard from there.
Mega Ray up from A and could go up to S- potentially as people work around its added mega restriction. It's just super hard to wall and provides added weather control, but also dies p fast.
Mega Mence up from A because it's super splashable and checks a number of important threats + Intimidate from base forme.
Talonflame and Cress stay. Cress's field control is really strong and Talonflame actually has good offensive pressure unlike Crobat, and still provides good speed + priority control/somewhat safe lead vs Smeargle + Xerneas or annoying stuff like Gengar + Whimsicott, even if it does die very quickly to a lot of things (not necessarily the biggest issue in this meta though because things are often expendable and talonflame does get its job done quite often before dying). Talonflame could possibly move down to A however.
A Rank
Ho-Oh up from A- due to its ability to hold its own against the deadly duo of xern + groudon and synergizes with basically every S tier Uber or Mega Rayquaza, but not A+ because its damage output isn't that great.
Ferrothorn up from A because beating Kyogre Xern is p big, but its Fire weakness and lack of actual supporting moves + rather specific offensive presence prevents it from going up further. Speed isn't exactly great either and relies heavily on TR.
Mega Gengar down from A+ but it's still a good enough mon w/ its shadow tag shenanigans. It's just not A+ because it doesnt have the power or bulk of your typical mega in this format. Speed of the format renders Perish Trap a bit weak, which reduces Gengar's options to more of just being a singler target disabler/random Skill Swapper/I got cheesed by HP Water Gengar + Kyogre LOL.
Mega Mawile down from A+ because it relies pretty heavily on Trick Room as its speed sucks and its bulk isn't that great. Groudon being everywhere doesn't do it any favors.
A- Rank
Lando-T up from B+ cuz it's still a general goodmon. Intimidate is still godly in this meta with all the Defiants and Competitive mons dying out and heavy spdef tanks to take advantage of it (+2 Xern Ogre Ho-Oh), and Lando still has the stats and typing to make good use of it (especially as the only non mega evolving intimidator so it's pretty much your most consistent source)
Dialga could go down due to several downsides (Steel type that doesnt resist fairy, still weak to Groudon, offensive presence not that great), but it doesn't have a lot of losing matchups either so idk
Palkia stays here because quad resist to Fire and Water is huge and lets it set up TR safely on special groudon/kyogre whereas stuff like Cress would get chunked very hard. 4mss is awful though and it really wishes it could do more with its awesome movepool
Amoonguss from B+ because it is relatively splashable and also nobody carries Safety Goggles anymore. Dies faster from all the eruption/dragon ascents but at the same time a single Spore is more devastating in this meta than in the previous years.
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What is scizor outclassed by, as a steel-type that can still massively chunk xerneas and doesn't care about how fast it is, along with smacking around cresselia and providing Feint support?
Every Uber except Xerneas smacks Scizor right across the face with every move at its disposal. Most of the non Ubers are untouched by Scizor/easily beat Scizor. You can't rank something in B just because it beats 2 mons and provides something it rarely has the opportunity to use.
Mostly agree with everything here, apart from dialga. Dialga works better in trick room than palkia, is more splashable, versatile and apart from primals matchup good typing. Dialga hits like a truck, lives max attack precipice blades with investment, and can chunk about 50% of everything with Draco meteor. Not to mention rayquaza dies in one hit.Rayquaza doesnt come close to ohkoing kyogre with thunderbolt. That said, A is a bit low for how metagame defining it is.
However, since I'm here, I might as well post some brief thoughts on the viability rankings
(In no order within the ranks)
S Rank
Kyogre up from S-. I don't think it makes a lot of sense for Kyogre to be on a tier underneath Xerneas Groudon PDon given how metagame defining and powerful it is. Not sure what else I have to say about this.
A+ Rank
Smeargle up from A because the sheer pressure of dark void + gamechanging boosts from moody can take control of the game really early on (and being probably the best mon to set up Xerneas with). Not S because of some inconsistencies and number of ways to get around it (and it's most certainly not a self sufficient mon). It's a scary mon to see in team preview however, and its ability to very quickly decide a game means it can mindgame you very hard from there.
Mega Ray up from A and could go up to S- potentially as people work around its added mega restriction. It's just super hard to wall and provides added weather control, but also dies p fast.
Mega Mence up from A because it's super splashable and checks a number of important threats + Intimidate from base forme.
Talonflame and Cress stay. Cress's field control is really strong and Talonflame actually has good offensive pressure unlike Crobat, and still provides good speed + priority control/somewhat safe lead vs Smeargle + Xerneas or annoying stuff like Gengar + Whimsicott, even if it does die very quickly to a lot of things (not necessarily the biggest issue in this meta though because things are often expendable and talonflame does get its job done quite often before dying). Talonflame could possibly move down to A however.
A Rank
Ho-Oh up from A- due to its ability to hold its own against the deadly duo of xern + groudon and synergizes with basically every S tier Uber or Mega Rayquaza, but not A+ because its damage output isn't that great.
Ferrothorn up from A because beating Kyogre Xern is p big, but its Fire weakness and lack of actual supporting moves + rather specific offensive presence prevents it from going up further. Speed isn't exactly great either and relies heavily on TR.
Mega Gengar down from A+ but it's still a good enough mon w/ its shadow tag shenanigans. It's just not A+ because it doesnt have the power or bulk of your typical mega in this format. Speed of the format renders Perish Trap a bit weak, which reduces Gengar's options to more of just being a singler target disabler/random Skill Swapper/I got cheesed by HP Water Gengar + Kyogre LOL.
Mega Mawile down from A+ because it relies pretty heavily on Trick Room as its speed sucks and its bulk isn't that great. Groudon being everywhere doesn't do it any favors.
A- Rank
Lando-T up from B+ cuz it's still a general goodmon. Intimidate is still godly in this meta with all the Defiants and Competitive mons dying out and heavy spdef tanks to take advantage of it (+2 Xern Ogre Ho-Oh), and Lando still has the stats and typing to make good use of it (especially as the only non mega evolving intimidator so it's pretty much your most consistent source)
Dialga could go down due to several downsides (Steel type that doesnt resist fairy, still weak to Groudon, offensive presence not that great), but it doesn't have a lot of losing matchups either so idk
Palkia stays here because quad resist to Fire and Water is huge and lets it set up TR safely on special groudon/kyogre whereas stuff like Cress would get chunked very hard. 4mss is awful though and it really wishes it could do more with its awesome movepool
Amoonguss from B+ because it is relatively splashable and also nobody carries Safety Goggles anymore. Dies faster from all the eruption/dragon ascents but at the same time a single Spore is more devastating in this meta than in the previous years.
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
S-Rank
S Rank
Mega-Kangaskhan
Primal Groudon
S- Rank
Primal Kyogre
Xerneas
I think S is dine right now except for the fact that I actually find Xern a bit underwhelming, well at least compared to MegaKang and PDon who are absolute monsters. Also Xerneas is a one trick pony shot down by faster Taunt / Knock Off mons as well as Paralisis. Still a metagame defining threat.
A-Rank
A+ Rank
Cresselia
Mega-Gengar
Mega-Mawile
Talonflame
Smeargle
Thundurus
Smeargle is just plain out stupid. Especially in a metagame such as this one, everyone fears Smeargle.
Thundurus is the best Prankster user at the moment. TWave is important for nulifying anything that needs speed like Xerneas and Ray. Also having Prankster Taunt works super well in its favor being able to stop Smeargle. Also has Foul Play and TBolt to damage POgre a bit.
A Rank
Crobat
Liepard
Mega-Rayquaza /
Rayquaza
Mega-Salamence
Ho-Oh
Yveltal
Ho-oh is stupidly hard to deal with when used properly. Sacred Fire is a burden against the opposing team. If you don't control Ho-oh fast enough then it will blow you back. Basically a nuke that needs to be stopped before it lands.
Yveltal is also just amazing. It pressures anything physical with Foul Play, supports with Dark Aura provides Taunt etc. Dark Pulse and Oblivion Wing are fun to spam. Just a solid jack-of-all trades.
A- Rank
Dialga
Ferrothorn
Amoonguss
Landorus-T
Kyurem-W
As much as I hate to say this but Palkia barely has an advantage over Dialga in any sort of way. Being resistant to Water isn't enough in my books to stay in the same tier as Dialga who is one of the best picks for TR in the format. You could argue that bot having a Ground-type weakness is also another niche but then I must ask a simple question, "what does Palkia do to PDon?"
Giritina is a strange pokemon, it is kind of hard to use because of being a restricted legend because if you don't build around it you don't have much reason to use it.
Amoonguss is still Amoonguss, Spore is reliableand not bull shit like Dark Void along with Rage Powder which is frustrating. Another thing that is cool is Clear Smog which denies any set-up sweeper.
Lando-T shouldn't be compared to Lando-I they do opposite things except one hits PDon harder and one is actually better.
Kyurem White is kind of iffy and I don't see this one staying up here. Basically special nuke with powerful Ice-typing that helps deal with a multitude of commons (Thundurus, Amoon, Lando, Ray, Bat etc.)
B-Rank
B+ Rank
Aegislash
Landorus-I
Mewtwo
Togekiss
Whimsicott
Giratina-O
Palkia
Mega Lops speed tier is amazing and all but how good is it when it can only Fake Out one mon? Bad Defenses set this thing back but after actually using it, it turns out to be actually decent. Unfortunately 4MSS makes it so you kind of have to forfeit Fake Out or Protect for Ice Punch and it makes it hard to use Healing Wish (yes I said Healing Wish)
Weavile does... Ice-STAB? I mean its fast, has Fake Out and has Knock Off. Still garbage but I'll still leave it ranked
B Rank
Clefairy
Giratina-A
Gothitelle
Mega-Mewtwo-X
Mienshao
Porygon2
Tornadus
Mega-Lopunny
Friend Guard is still usefull and is typically better than status immune. Clefable is still good but i am going to have to say Clefairy is better.
Conkeldurr isn't as good as it use to be, it doesn't do well against any legends but fares well against commons.
Hariyama
Infernape
Ludicolo
Lugia
Mega-Mewtwo-Y
Mega-Swampert
Meowstic-M
Parasect
DONT USE (why is this so high?)
Rage Powder + Dry Skin + Spore is good, everything else about is TERRIBLE
Scizor
Venusaur
Clefable
Conkeldurr
C-Rank
C+ Rank
Cherim
DONT USE
PDon partner, nothing else
Gyarados
Hydreigon
Kingdra
Kyogre
Kyurem-B
Latios
Latias
Machamp
Mega-Camerupt
Mega-Houndoom
Mega Lucario
Mega-Metagross
Sableye
Staraptor
Sylveon
Virizion
Weavile
C Rank
Bisharp
Blaziken
Breloom
Chansey
DONT USE
Sits there and becomes set-up bait
Ditto
Dusclops
Gardevoir
DONT USE
Mediocre
Gastrodon
Golduck
DONT USE
I will personally make an analysis called DONT USE GOLDUCK if this thing stays on the VR
Groudon
DONT USE
There is actually no oppurtunity cost when using Red Orb
Heliolisk
Klefki
Krookodile
DONT USE
Bad just bad use Lando T
Mega-Blaziken
Mega-Venusaur
Reshiram
Rotom-W
Scrafty
DONT USE
Unfortunately, not as good
Swampert
Tyranitar
Volcarona
Zekrom
Goodra
C- Rank
Azumarill
Blissey
DONT USE
Toxic and wait
Heatran
Hitmontop
Mega-Charizard-X
Mega-Gyarados
Mega-Tyranitar
Metagross
Porygon-Z
Raikou
Rhydon
DONT USE
Eviolite, not even a lot of things use Eviolite
Rhyperior
DONT USE
Garbage
Rotom-C
Rotom-H
DONT USE
Fire coverage isn't as good when everything in the meta is prepared to deal with something stronger.
Shedinja
D-Rank
D Rank
Crawdaunt
Florges
DONT USE
Specially defensive and can't do anything back.
Jellicent
DONT USE
Water immune and can spread burns w/o Scald. Seems good on paper but is still bad.
Keckleon
DONT USE
Kek
Kyurem
DONT USE
Why would I use this over Kyurem White? PP Stalling is has never been good.
Mega-Altaria
Mega-Ampharos
DONT USE
Water-resist ain't helping till once you get Ice Beam
Mega-Charizard-Y
DONT USE
Unfortunately just bad in so many situations.
Mega-Scizor
Suicune
Zygarde
Basically my version with edited changes in spots
some of these things might just be straight out bad in the meta to the point I'll just say DONT USE.
Will continue to update
S Rank
S- Rank
I think S is dine right now except for the fact that I actually find Xern a bit underwhelming, well at least compared to MegaKang and PDon who are absolute monsters. Also Xerneas is a one trick pony shot down by faster Taunt / Knock Off mons as well as Paralisis. Still a metagame defining threat.
- Xerneas S ---> S-
A-Rank
A+ Rank
Smeargle is just plain out stupid. Especially in a metagame such as this one, everyone fears Smeargle.
Thundurus is the best Prankster user at the moment. TWave is important for nulifying anything that needs speed like Xerneas and Ray. Also having Prankster Taunt works super well in its favor being able to stop Smeargle. Also has Foul Play and TBolt to damage POgre a bit.
- Smeargle A ---> A+
- Thundurus A ---> A+
A Rank
Ho-oh is stupidly hard to deal with when used properly. Sacred Fire is a burden against the opposing team. If you don't control Ho-oh fast enough then it will blow you back. Basically a nuke that needs to be stopped before it lands.
Yveltal is also just amazing. It pressures anything physical with Foul Play, supports with Dark Aura provides Taunt etc. Dark Pulse and Oblivion Wing are fun to spam. Just a solid jack-of-all trades.
- Ho-oh A- ---> A
- Yveltal A- ---> A
A- Rank
As much as I hate to say this but Palkia barely has an advantage over Dialga in any sort of way. Being resistant to Water isn't enough in my books to stay in the same tier as Dialga who is one of the best picks for TR in the format. You could argue that bot having a Ground-type weakness is also another niche but then I must ask a simple question, "what does Palkia do to PDon?"
Giritina is a strange pokemon, it is kind of hard to use because of being a restricted legend because if you don't build around it you don't have much reason to use it.
Amoonguss is still Amoonguss, Spore is reliable
Lando-T shouldn't be compared to Lando-I they do opposite things except one hits PDon harder and one is actually better.
Kyurem White is kind of iffy and I don't see this one staying up here. Basically special nuke with powerful Ice-typing that helps deal with a multitude of commons (Thundurus, Amoon, Lando, Ray, Bat etc.)
- Palkia A- ---> B+
- Giritina A- ---> B+
- Amoonguss B+ ---> A-
- Landog B+ ---> A-
- KW ---> B+ ---> A-
B-Rank
B+ Rank
Mega Lops speed tier is amazing and all but how good is it when it can only Fake Out one mon? Bad Defenses set this thing back but after actually using it, it turns out to be actually decent. Unfortunately 4MSS makes it so you kind of have to forfeit Fake Out or Protect for Ice Punch and it makes it hard to use Healing Wish (yes I said Healing Wish)
Weavile does... Ice-STAB? I mean its fast, has Fake Out and has Knock Off. Still garbage but I'll still leave it ranked
- MLop B+ ---> B
- Weavile B+ ---> C+
B Rank
Friend Guard is still usefull and is typically better than status immune. Clefable is still good but i am going to have to say Clefairy is better.
Conkeldurr isn't as good as it use to be, it doesn't do well against any legends but fares well against commons.
- Clefable B ---> B-
- Conkeldurr B ---> B-
DONT USE (why is this so high?)
Rage Powder + Dry Skin + Spore is good, everything else about is TERRIBLE
C-Rank
C+ Rank
DONT USE
PDon partner, nothing else
C Rank
DONT USE
Sits there and becomes set-up bait
DONT USE
Mediocre
DONT USE
I will personally make an analysis called DONT USE GOLDUCK if this thing stays on the VR
DONT USE
There is actually no oppurtunity cost when using Red Orb
DONT USE
Bad just bad use Lando T
DONT USE
Unfortunately, not as good
C- Rank
DONT USE
Toxic and wait
DONT USE
Eviolite, not even a lot of things use Eviolite
DONT USE
Garbage
DONT USE
Fire coverage isn't as good when everything in the meta is prepared to deal with something stronger.
D-Rank
D Rank
DONT USE
Specially defensive and can't do anything back.
DONT USE
Water immune and can spread burns w/o Scald. Seems good on paper but is still bad.
DONT USE
Kek
DONT USE
Why would I use this over Kyurem White? PP Stalling is has never been good.
DONT USE
Water-resist ain't helping till once you get Ice Beam
DONT USE
Unfortunately just bad in so many situations.
Basically my version with edited changes in spots
some of these things might just be straight out bad in the meta to the point I'll just say DONT USE.
Will continue to update
Last edited:
You still haven't answered my question. You marked it as "100% outclassed" but haven't said what it's outclassed by.
Just replying to the Palkia part because I like it. I've used both Palkia and Dialga and in my use Palkia has been a lot better. Palkia 4x resisting Fire and Water is really good in thus meta. Spacial Rend hits harder than Drafon Pulse letting it kill MRay without significant investment. What Palkia does to Don is literally the exact same as Dialga with Earth Power.S-Rank
S Rank
Mega-Kangaskhan
Primal Groudon
S- Rank
Primal Kyogre
Xerneas
I think S is dine right now except for the fact that I actually find Xern a bit underwhelming, well at least compared to MegaKang and PDon who are absolute monsters. Also Xerneas is a one trick pony shot down by faster Taunt / Knock Off mons as well as Paralisis. Still a metagame defining threat.
- Xerneas S ---> S-
A-Rank
A+ Rank
Cresselia
Mega-Gengar
Mega-Mawile
Talonflame
Smeargle
Thundurus
Smeargle is just plain out stupid. Especially in a metagame such as this one, everyone fears Smeargle.
Thundurus is the best Prankster user at the moment. TWave is important for nulifying anything that needs speed like Xerneas and Ray. Also having Prankster Taunt works super well in its favor being able to stop Smeargle. Also has Foul Play and TBolt to damage POgre a bit.
- Smeargle A ---> A+
- Thundurus A ---> A+
A Rank
Crobat
Liepard
Mega-Rayquaza /Rayquaza
Mega-Salamence
Ho-Oh
Yveltal
Ho-oh is stupidly hard to deal with when used properly. Sacred Fire is a burden against the opposing team. If you don't control Ho-oh fast enough then it will blow you back. Basically a nuke that needs to be stopped before it lands.
Yveltal is also just amazing. It pressures anything physical with Foul Play, supports with Dark Aura provides Taunt etc. Dark Pulse and Oblivion Wing are fun to spam. Just a solid jack-of-all trades.
- Ho-oh A- ---> A
- Yveltal A- ---> A
A- Rank
Dialga
Ferrothorn
Amoonguss
Landorus-T
Kyurem-W
As much as I hate to say this but Palkia barely has an advantage over Dialga in any sort of way. Being resistant to Water isn't enough in my books to stay in the same tier as Dialga who is one of the best picks for TR in the format. You could argue that bot having a Ground-type weakness is also another niche but then I must ask a simple question, "what does Palkia do to PDon?"
Giritina is a strange pokemon, it is kind of hard to use because of being a restricted legend because if you don't build around it you don't have much reason to use it.
Amoonguss is still Amoonguss, Spore is reliableand not bull shit like Dark Voidalong with Rage Powder which is frustrating. Another thing that is cool is Clear Smog which denies any set-up sweeper.
Lando-T shouldn't be compared to Lando-I they do opposite things except one hits PDon harder and one is actually better.
Kyurem White is kind of iffy and I don't see this one staying up here. Basically special nuke with powerful Ice-typing that helps deal with a multitude of commons (Thundurus, Amoon, Lando, Ray, Bat etc.)
- Palkia A- ---> B+
- Giritina A- ---> B+
- Amoonguss B+ ---> A-
- Landog B+ ---> A-
- KW ---> B+ ---> A-
B-Rank
B+ Rank
Aegislash
Landorus-I
Mewtwo
Togekiss
Whimsicott
Giratina-O
Palkia
Mega Lops speed tier is amazing and all but how good is it when it can only Fake Out one mon? Bad Defenses set this thing back but after actually using it, it turns out to be actually decent. Unfortunately 4MSS makes it so you kind of have to forfeit Fake Out or Protect for Ice Punch and it makes it hard to use Healing Wish (yes I said Healing Wish)
Weavile does... Ice-STAB? I mean its fast, has Fake Out and has Knock Off. Still garbage but I'll still leave it ranked
- MLop B+ ---> B
- Weavile B+ ---> C+
B Rank
Clefable
Clefairy
Conkeldurr
Giratina-A
Goodra
Gothitelle
Mega-Mewtwo-X
Mienshao
Porygon2
Tornadus
Mega-Lopunny
B- Rank
Hariyama
Infernape
Ludicolo
Lugia
Mega-Mewtwo-Y
Mega-Swampert
Meowstic-M
Parasect
DONT USE (why is this so high?)
Scizor
Venusaur
C-Rank
C+ Rank
Cherim
DONT USE
Gyarados
Hydreigon
Kingdra
Kyogre
Kyurem-B
Latios
Latias
Machamp
Mega-Camerupt
Mega-Houndoom
Mega Lucario
Mega-Metagross
Sableye
Staraptor
Sylveon
Virizion
Weavile
C Rank
Bisharp
Blaziken
Breloom
Chansey
DONT USE
Ditto
Dusclops
Gardevoir
DONT USE
Gastrodon
Golduck
DONT USE
Groudon
DONT USE
Heliolisk
Klefki
Krookodile
DONT USE
Mega-Blaziken
Mega-Venusaur
Reshiram
Rotom-W
Scrafty
DONT USE
Swampert
Tyranitar
Volcarona
Zekrom
C- Rank
Azumarill
Blissey
DONT USE
Heatran
Hitmontop
Mega-Charizard-X
Mega-Gyarados
Mega-Tyranitar
Metagross
Porygon-Z
Raikou
Rhydon
DONT USE
Rhyperior
DONT USE
Rotom-C
Rotom-H
DONT USE
Shedinja
D-Rank
D Rank
Crawdaunt
Florges
DONT USE
Jellicent
DONT USE
Keckleon
DONT USE
Kyurem
DONT USE
Mega-Altaria
Mega-Ampharos
DONT USE
Mega-Charizard-Y
DONT USE
Mega-Scizor
Suicune
Zygarde
Basically my version with edited changes in spots
some of these things might just be straight out bad in the meta to the point I'll just say DONT USE.
Will continue to update
Also not really an argument but people on the low ladder still don't always expect Trick Room.
Sorry I didn't exactly answer this, you're right in that.
Scizor's niche:
- Beats Cresselia (though it does it about as well as an Uber slot/Mega slot does :/)
- Does over 50% to Xerneas (I would rather KO it like Mega Mawile or an Uber.....)
- Feint (this is always much more often wanted than needed tbh)
If Feint is that important to you there are much better mons out there like [Mega] Lucario that outspeed the likes of Mega Kangaskhan (outspeeds and KOs with Inner Focus if regular Lucario on the turn of Kangaskhan's mega evolution), base 90s, and other things while not dealing shit damage like Scizor does. All Lucario doesn't have is "beats Cresselia" (and if you're using regular Lucario I GUESS you don't do 50% to Xerneas with Bullet Punch but like 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 198-237 (88.3 - 105.8%) - it's not that hard in the first place).
Weavile is another thing that actually does both dealing with Cresselia better than other mons tend to while having Feint, and it even gets the fastest Fake Out aside from Ludicolo in Rain. Ice STAB hits Mega Rayquaza better than Scizor could ever imagine, and Kangaskhan can be easily scared of you out of fear of Low Kick Weavile. Really the only thing you could argue for Scizor against Weavile is that Weavile can't hit Xerneas, and technically you're wrong in this... you can Knock Off their Power Herb and make them sit there for two turns without doing anything if it decided to be dumb and use Geomancy, or you can Fake Out, or even Feint if you think Xerneas is likely to Protect... but I guess you're not hitting it with the power of Scizor.
Overall there's just not a reason to use Scizor over anything else. If you really need Feint more than you need an A Rank mon to fill that spot and do everything that Scizor does aside from Feint better, I can only assume you're a based god of VGC and actually know when you need Feint vs when you just wanna be cool and use Feint.
If you really need to hit Cresselia better than Lucario can, I can only assume you are very weak to Cresselia, which just makes me wonder what you do against Trick Room Primals...
If you really need to hit Xerneas better than Weavile can work around it, I can only assume you're very weak to Xerneas... and I think you know where I'm going with this since Xerneas almost always has a Primal as a partner :I
It's really a combination of useless niche and outclassed, because yeah, sure, nothing can fully fill Scizor's job, but every Uber that is considerably viable (minus like 2 or 3) can actually do all of it aside from Feint. Feint+doing what other mons do but way way way worse is pretty much a useless niche.
Serapis
Losing my way to Victory
Update to Version 1.3:
So, there have been discussions going on about what to do with this thread, and this update will be the first step in enacting them. Primarily, there will be a heavy stress placed upon actual finishes at events when it comes to determining rank, and theorying will be minimized. Beyond that, the list is going to be trimmed, a lot, simply to remove things that are kinda meh. Should the find their place in the metagame they'll be added back in, but until they do they'll exist in a sort of unranked zone. Allow me to further clarify:
As one example, Conkeldurr's getting cut from these rankings entirely. That doesn't mean it's a bad Pokemon, it just means that nobody's done anything notable with it yet. Working with what could theoretically be good is cool and all, but it's just not feasible. Now, both Cherim and Golduck will be getting dropped to D Rank. This does not mean that they are better than the unranked Conkeldurr; they will be placed in D rank because they're prefect examples of gimmicky Pokemon that you might think are good but really aren't. With that hopefully cleared up, let's start:
Kyurem-W, Mewtwo, Conkeldurr, Hariyama, Clefairy, Clefable, Goodra, Mega-Mewtwo-X, Mega-Mewtwo-Y, Porygon2, Parasect, Venusaur, Hydreigon, Kingdra, Kyogre (regular), Groudon (regular), Machamp, Mega-Houndoom, Mega-Camerupt, Chansey, Dusclops, Gardevoir, Blissey, Rotom-W, Kyurem-B, Reshiram, Mega-Venusaur, Mega-Blaziken, Tyranitar (regular), Volcarona, Scrafty, Bisharp, Hitmontop, Heatran, Azumarill, Swampert, Virizion, Lugia Krookodile, Latias, Zekrom, Porygon-Z, Rhydon, Rhyperior, Rotom-C, Mega-Manectric, Rotom-F, Giratina-A, Metagross (regular), Sylveon, Staraptor, Sableye Mega-Metagross, Mega-Lucario Rotom-H and the entirety of the current D rank bar Mega-Scizor unranked
Yeah, lots of cuts. Still, look at everything on this list. To the best of my knowledge, Cherim has done better than them (it's cut a Regional, sadly enough) so until they do something they're off the list.
Cresselia to A
This is a pretty simple change, nothing major. As pointed out, power creep has definately hindered Cress and while it's still certainly good it's just not A+ material.
Golduck and Cherim to D Rank
Do I really need to explain this? They shouldn't have ever been in the C's.
Gothitelle to C
It actually cut an event, what do you know? It has a cool ability and decent bulk with a nice support movepool to back it up, but all the same it goes down too quickly and if you really want support then there's always Cress/Smeargle.
Mega-Rayquaza and Rayquaza are now slashed in A rank
It's been suggested several times, and because Rayquaza doesn't actually need a Mega Stone to Mega evolve you can have a Semi-Mega Rayquaza pretty easily. This could be changed in the future depending on some things (I mean, Rayquaza and Mega-Ray often run different sets with regular Ray sometimes opting for Waterfall and Overheat with little intention to Mega-Evolve), but if it's an issue we can have a more complete discussion about it.
Landorus-T back to A-
It's Landorus, and it seems that it's reign isn't over yet.
Dialga and Giratina-O to B+
Both are pretty good, but not really A class threats. You should watch out for them in teambuilding, but they each struggle with at least one of the S Class Pokemon and some of the higher A class Pokemon.
Landorus-I dropped to C+
This thing hasn't done much at all at live events, and the only reason it hasn't gotten the sack yet is because it can kinda beat Primal Groudon. With that said, it Landorus-I continues to achieve nothing, it won't stick around on the rankings for much longer.
Togekiss to A-
In competition for the best redirection user in the format with Amoonguss (and Smeargle I guess), Togekiss deserves it's spot in the A rank. More than redirection, it's also a great source of speed control and actually has amazing bulk, to the point where it can take a +2 Xerneas Moonblast if EVed correctly.
Aegislash to B
Without a single high event placing to my knowledge, Aegislash is losing ground. It's still a good Wide Guard user, but it can't hold on forever without a decent finish. I'm waiting to see how this one pans out.
Latios to B
It's decent and has nice support options. Because of a lack of event finishes it won't go higher, but B seems like a nice enough home for it right now.
Mega-Swampert to C
Same old, same old. No event finishes, generally eh overall.
Ludicolo to C+
Ludicolo doesn't have any awesome finishes, but it's around in the meta so it gets to stay for the moment.
Smeargle to A+
Dark Void
Liepard to A-
More event finish issues/corrections
Palkia, Mega-Lopunny and Weavile to B
They've been used, they're okay, but they're not amazing
Klefki to B-
Jon Hu
Gengar (regular) added to B-
It's won a Regional, but nothing much besides that. It might move up or down depending on how the rest of the season plays out for it.
Togetec. . . Togetech. . . Togenotkissthingy added to C+
Yeah, this seems like a horrible theorymon or a plain badmon, but it did win a Regional. Doesn't exactly make it good, but then again C+ is a relatively humble place to start. I'm tentatively optimistic that Togenotkissthingy can prove to be a viable Pokemon in VGC '16.
Raichu added to B+
Say what? Well, Raichu has actually been doing way better than you'd think at events, having won a Regional already and shown up in Top Cut several times besides that.
S Rank collapsed into one tier
I'll probably follow this up with an update early next week (or whenever we get another page or two) to run damage control and begin to flesh the thread back out. From here on, please cite successes that any nom you've made (to be added) has seen.
So, there have been discussions going on about what to do with this thread, and this update will be the first step in enacting them. Primarily, there will be a heavy stress placed upon actual finishes at events when it comes to determining rank, and theorying will be minimized. Beyond that, the list is going to be trimmed, a lot, simply to remove things that are kinda meh. Should the find their place in the metagame they'll be added back in, but until they do they'll exist in a sort of unranked zone. Allow me to further clarify:
As one example, Conkeldurr's getting cut from these rankings entirely. That doesn't mean it's a bad Pokemon, it just means that nobody's done anything notable with it yet. Working with what could theoretically be good is cool and all, but it's just not feasible. Now, both Cherim and Golduck will be getting dropped to D Rank. This does not mean that they are better than the unranked Conkeldurr; they will be placed in D rank because they're prefect examples of gimmicky Pokemon that you might think are good but really aren't. With that hopefully cleared up, let's start:
Kyurem-W, Mewtwo, Conkeldurr, Hariyama, Clefairy, Clefable, Goodra, Mega-Mewtwo-X, Mega-Mewtwo-Y, Porygon2, Parasect, Venusaur, Hydreigon, Kingdra, Kyogre (regular), Groudon (regular), Machamp, Mega-Houndoom, Mega-Camerupt, Chansey, Dusclops, Gardevoir, Blissey, Rotom-W, Kyurem-B, Reshiram, Mega-Venusaur, Mega-Blaziken, Tyranitar (regular), Volcarona, Scrafty, Bisharp, Hitmontop, Heatran, Azumarill, Swampert, Virizion, Lugia Krookodile, Latias, Zekrom, Porygon-Z, Rhydon, Rhyperior, Rotom-C, Mega-Manectric, Rotom-F, Giratina-A, Metagross (regular), Sylveon, Staraptor, Sableye Mega-Metagross, Mega-Lucario Rotom-H and the entirety of the current D rank bar Mega-Scizor unranked
Yeah, lots of cuts. Still, look at everything on this list. To the best of my knowledge, Cherim has done better than them (it's cut a Regional, sadly enough) so until they do something they're off the list.
Cresselia to A
This is a pretty simple change, nothing major. As pointed out, power creep has definately hindered Cress and while it's still certainly good it's just not A+ material.
Golduck and Cherim to D Rank
Do I really need to explain this? They shouldn't have ever been in the C's.
Gothitelle to C
It actually cut an event, what do you know? It has a cool ability and decent bulk with a nice support movepool to back it up, but all the same it goes down too quickly and if you really want support then there's always Cress/Smeargle.
Mega-Rayquaza and Rayquaza are now slashed in A rank
It's been suggested several times, and because Rayquaza doesn't actually need a Mega Stone to Mega evolve you can have a Semi-Mega Rayquaza pretty easily. This could be changed in the future depending on some things (I mean, Rayquaza and Mega-Ray often run different sets with regular Ray sometimes opting for Waterfall and Overheat with little intention to Mega-Evolve), but if it's an issue we can have a more complete discussion about it.
Landorus-T back to A-
It's Landorus, and it seems that it's reign isn't over yet.
Dialga and Giratina-O to B+
Both are pretty good, but not really A class threats. You should watch out for them in teambuilding, but they each struggle with at least one of the S Class Pokemon and some of the higher A class Pokemon.
Landorus-I dropped to C+
This thing hasn't done much at all at live events, and the only reason it hasn't gotten the sack yet is because it can kinda beat Primal Groudon. With that said, it Landorus-I continues to achieve nothing, it won't stick around on the rankings for much longer.
Togekiss to A-
In competition for the best redirection user in the format with Amoonguss (and Smeargle I guess), Togekiss deserves it's spot in the A rank. More than redirection, it's also a great source of speed control and actually has amazing bulk, to the point where it can take a +2 Xerneas Moonblast if EVed correctly.
Aegislash to B
Without a single high event placing to my knowledge, Aegislash is losing ground. It's still a good Wide Guard user, but it can't hold on forever without a decent finish. I'm waiting to see how this one pans out.
Latios to B
It's decent and has nice support options. Because of a lack of event finishes it won't go higher, but B seems like a nice enough home for it right now.
Mega-Swampert to C
Same old, same old. No event finishes, generally eh overall.
Ludicolo to C+
Ludicolo doesn't have any awesome finishes, but it's around in the meta so it gets to stay for the moment.
Smeargle to A+
Dark Void
Liepard to A-
More event finish issues/corrections
Palkia, Mega-Lopunny and Weavile to B
They've been used, they're okay, but they're not amazing
Klefki to B-
Jon Hu
Gengar (regular) added to B-
It's won a Regional, but nothing much besides that. It might move up or down depending on how the rest of the season plays out for it.
Togetec. . . Togetech. . . Togenotkissthingy added to C+
Yeah, this seems like a horrible theorymon or a plain badmon, but it did win a Regional. Doesn't exactly make it good, but then again C+ is a relatively humble place to start. I'm tentatively optimistic that Togenotkissthingy can prove to be a viable Pokemon in VGC '16.
Raichu added to B+
Say what? Well, Raichu has actually been doing way better than you'd think at events, having won a Regional already and shown up in Top Cut several times besides that.
S Rank collapsed into one tier
I'll probably follow this up with an update early next week (or whenever we get another page or two) to run damage control and begin to flesh the thread back out. From here on, please cite successes that any nom you've made (to be added) has seen.
Alright I'll be honest the old tier list was better
- First of all you gotta explain why every mon in C- is even there in the first place instead of being unranked
- Palkia being placed in a tier with Latios is also extremely questionable. The former has a clear, defined niche in the meta while the latter is mostly a bad Mega Salamence (I guess it doesn't burn up a mega slot??). Also I don't recall Latios ever topcutting or anything
- Mega Mawile is too high given how little it has appeared in top cuts
- Conversely, Mega Salamence is too low given how prevalent it is in top cutting teams (although part of this has to do with the showdown special/spam/bob ross and happy little tree/whatever you want to call it teams being spammed)
- (Mega) Rayquaza is almost a core on most rain teams and probably the hardest Pokemon in the game to to switch into. It's ranked worse than Mega Mawile...
- I'm not even sure how much Klefki Jon Hu used given how specific its use is. You might as well add Lapras onto the list. Also it was just a premier challenge (granted it was pretty stacked), at an early stage in the meta.
- Too much emphasis on live events.
- First of all you gotta explain why every mon in C- is even there in the first place instead of being unranked
- Palkia being placed in a tier with Latios is also extremely questionable. The former has a clear, defined niche in the meta while the latter is mostly a bad Mega Salamence (I guess it doesn't burn up a mega slot??). Also I don't recall Latios ever topcutting or anything
- Mega Mawile is too high given how little it has appeared in top cuts
- Conversely, Mega Salamence is too low given how prevalent it is in top cutting teams (although part of this has to do with the showdown special/spam/bob ross and happy little tree/whatever you want to call it teams being spammed)
- (Mega) Rayquaza is almost a core on most rain teams and probably the hardest Pokemon in the game to to switch into. It's ranked worse than Mega Mawile...
- I'm not even sure how much Klefki Jon Hu used given how specific its use is. You might as well add Lapras onto the list. Also it was just a premier challenge (granted it was pretty stacked), at an early stage in the meta.
- Too much emphasis on live events.
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
I agree with a lot of what Jibaku said, just because a pokemon didn't place top 10 in a tournament doesn't mean it shouldn't be ranked. For the most part there were a lot of niche ones like Scrafty, Krook and TTar but removing Kyurem-White, Mewtwo and Clefs for the sole reason of not being in a top 10 team is very non nonsensical. Yet you still decide to leave Golduck and Cherrim pokemon that literally have one niche and fill up a teamslot just so they can be blown back by a strong move, well they placed at a tournament so lets say it has more viability then Kyurem White.
Also Hitmontop is not garbage like everyone says, it hits Mega Kang as well as Dark-types has Fake Out and Dual Guard + Intimidate. That is a lot of role compression. I will literally post a Hitmontop nomination till it at least gets into D every time this thread updates.
Also Hitmontop is not garbage like everyone says, it hits Mega Kang as well as Dark-types has Fake Out and Dual Guard + Intimidate. That is a lot of role compression. I will literally post a Hitmontop nomination till it at least gets into D every time this thread updates.
By this logic you might as well add things like Lapras and Bronzong since they've done well at live events as well.
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Greninja was ok in 2014, terrible in 2015, and just flat out bad in 2016
A lot of those Pokemon absolutely deserve to be ranked. Just because something hasn't made it to top cut in a Regional in a brand new format doesn't mean that it isn't viable and should be taken off the rankings. I mean, just looking at the list of cut mons, Kyurem-W, all Mewtwo formes, Clefairy, Porygon2, Parasect, Hydreigon, Hitmontop, Virizion, Lugia, Zekrom, Giratina, and Sableye all have at least SOME niche. Hell, Kyurem-W is actually a monster and has the ability to check both Primals with a Specs set OHKOing Groudon and 2HKOing Kyogre (more like doing 80% since 2HKO makes it sound like it does like 50%). Giratina-A does a really cool SubCM set that I've been working on. It's sub tanks a Kyogre Ice Beam at +2. Just pair it with something that can take advantage of Xerneas (Mawile, Physical Groudon, Encore users, etc.) and it can be a real pain to bring down. It's like CM Cress was last year but even bulkier. Hitmontop isn't great but it checks Kang and has Quick Guard and Wide Guard. Basically a mienshao that has intimidate. Mewtwo is super underused and we can't really say it's unviable since I don't think anyone has really tried, but it should still be ranked (I think all restricted legends should be ranked just for newer people to be able to see if using their favorite legends is a good idea). I just feel like this should at least have been discussed further before making such a huge change.
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