VGC 2016 Viability Rankings

[Haruno]

Why is mega mawile so high up again? It's not really relevant in terms of building since you'll check it naturally and even then due to a large amount of crippling flaws that make it pretty much impossible to use in most cases.

Put it in B rank at best lol. Needs tr to function. Still bad even in tr. walled to death by pdon. Etc

 

[Ksh13]

Why is mega mawile so high up again? It's not really relevant in terms of building since you'll check it naturally and even then due to a large amount of crippling flaws that make it pretty much impossible to use in most cases.

Put it in B rank at best lol. Needs tr to function. Still bad even in tr. walled to death by pdon. Etc

Seconding this, Mawile is really meh tbh, at least not A+ material. I've faced it many times and every time I literally just bring Pdon and it isn't a problem to deal with. It does beat a couple of things, but its matchup against primals is just so bad (Primal Kyogre with positive SpA almost always OHKO's it with Origin Pulse), especially pdon, which is on more than every other team (might be overexaggerating here but you know what I mean). B might be a bit harsh due to its matchup against like something else than primals, maybe B+.

Latios C+ -->B

What, C+? This thing is far from perfect, but way closer to perfect than Cherrim and Mega Houndoom. It is a Tailwind setter, and a Dragon that threatens both M-Mence and M-Ray pre-m-evo, and forces them to Protect, on which turn it can set up Tailwind and really be a threat. It has some really nice coverage options as well such as Grass Knot, and it does a ton to any Pdon, as well as resisting both its stabs. It also has a decent matchup against Primal Kyogre, although Ice Beam does a ton to it. In short, it is nothing amazing, but a neat Pokemon that defiently is on par with Mienshao and Goodra imo (if not better).

 

[R-B-Y]

Seconding this, Mawile is really meh tbh, at least not A+ material. I've faced it many times and every time I literally just bring Pdon and it isn't a problem to deal with. It does beat a couple of things, but its matchup against primals is just so bad (Primal Kyogre with positive SpA almost always OHKO's it with Origin Pulse), especially pdon, which is on more than every other team (might be overexaggerating here but you know what I mean). B might be a bit harsh due to its matchup against like something else than primals, maybe B+.

Latios C+ -->B

What, C+? This thing is far from perfect, but way closer to perfect than Cherrim and Mega Houndoom. It is a Tailwind setter, and a Dragon that threatens both M-Mence and M-Ray pre-m-evo, and forces them to Protect, on which turn it can set up Tailwind and really be a threat. It has some really nice coverage options as well such as Grass Knot, and it does a ton to any Pdon, as well as resisting both its stabs. It also has a decent matchup against Primal Kyogre, although Ice Beam does a ton to it. In short, it is nothing amazing, but a neat Pokemon that defiently is on par with Mienshao and Goodra imo (if not better).

Mawile is good in trick room, which is amazing in this meta. While Pdon shuts it down, it's a good counter against yveltal and xerneas, resists kangs moves, and tanks rayquaza. If you can get past Groudon with say Kyogre, mawile can put in a lot of work.

 

[Haruno]

Mawile is good in trick room, which is amazing in this meta. While Pdon shuts it down, it's a good counter against yveltal and xerneas, resists kangs moves, and tanks rayquaza. If you can get past Groudon with say Kyogre, mawile can put in a lot of work.

How is tr amazing in a meta when it's absolute hell to set up when your only viable setter is dialga (and cress to an extent but it's mediocre as well and set up fodder). It doesn't even beat xerneas (why do people think this) when it's outright ohko'd at +2. Ray can realistically and commonly carry overheat/fire blast so mawile is iffy in that match up as well. And ogre + mawile have god awful synergy and ogre is very very iffy as a pdon check (can't switch in, can lose even in rain, etc) overall mawile has little to no redeeming factors in this meta since it's too slow, too weak, and typing is mediocre defensively and has nonexistent bulk even factoring in intimidate and the biggest problem is its walled by the best mon in the meta.

 

[Vengeance417]

Latios should definitely be higher than C+ Rank. Pretty much everything that Ksh13 said would be something I would have said myself.

Another thing to mention is that it's actually a decent Pdon switchin (nobody runs Dragon coverage on it) something very few in this meta can claim to do outside mons like (pre) Mega Mence, and the best part is it doesn't take up a mega slot or a restricted legend slot. The only thing it needs to watch for is an Eruption from Max SpA Pdon with a beneficial nature when Pdon's at full health, which is a 2HKO:

252+ SpA Primal Groudon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios in Harsh Sunshine: 80-95 (51.6 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

However, it's not too hard to whittle Pdon down with prior damage.

 

[Temporelucis]

Tentacruel Unranked --> C-
It's able to check Xerneas with Haze, rain provides survivability as well as a strong STAB move. It gives a nice support with moves like Swagger and Acid Spray, overall not awful.
I've been using it with Yveltal to bait Primal Groudon (swagplay).
+2 0- Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 207-243 (100 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[rhydonphilip]

Don't know why you listed thunderbolt at all since it's worse than moonblast in pretty much every scenario except for when moonblast is resisted + thunderbolt is SE. Whereas a neutral moonblast is stronger than a 2x SE thunderbolt and by extension a 2x resisted moonblast does more than neutral tbolt.

Thunder is kinda bad outside of ko'ing ho oh lol but have fun with that accuracy.

Aegis isn't a valid answer to cerneas since it must win every 50-50 against it via attacking and protect.

Hp ground and dazzling are pretty much the only viable coverage since ho oh isn't relevant enough to warrant it (pogre avoids the ohko regardless)

The reason why i listed Thunderbolt is more to prove the fact it's a insuperior option compaired to Thunder/Moonblast, as allot of people don't seem to understand the fact it lacks, this however compleatly provides all the reasoning on why it lacks. I don't think you understood my reasoning behind the post, the reason was to show there exists use for Focus Blast/Thunder as they can be used to deal with Checks/Answeres IF they did increase in useage, where as Thunder can infact be used already to check Utility/Offencive Utility Talonflame, having a notably better odd of dealing with Primal Kyogre and so on (I am not going to list all the damage calcs again as the calculations in the previous post included all that i thought were notable and I didn't overlook). For Focus Blast it's more useless then anythign to run outside of for Ferrothorn as almost all things on the list outside of that have practically no useage as far as i am concerned, if they did rise in useage for whatever reason it did have the opportunity to prepair for them.

Dazzling Gleam, Moonblast and Hidden Power Ground and Geomancy are the moves it wants to run the far majority of the times however with this list it could be more adaptable with the versatility depending on the metagame to prepair for using FocusBlast/Thunder as reasonable options. I am not suggesting people should be using multiple moves, i am only suggesting it has the opportunity to drop a move for another if that gives better opportunity's to the current metagame.

I listed allot of useless mons in it like Heatran, who is practically useless and anyone with common sense should know that. I named these for people to get a better idea of what the coverage is for even in raw output showing they don't stand mutch of a chance outside of ''Walling Moonblast''.

 

[DragonWhale]

Agreed with Haruno. If you want people to start taking this viability ranking thread seriously you shouldn't have Mega Mawile above (mega) Rayquaza.

B-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that fit well in the VGC16 metagame, but they have notable flaws that prevent them from filling their role to the fullest extent. The Pokemon in this tier are either predictable, require some team support to work to its full potential, or are at disadvantageous match-ups against some common threats. The flaws that the Pokemon in this tier have are mostly mitigated by their positive traits.

Mega Mawile literally fits into every single description in there. Why the fuck is it A+.

Also, on Xerneas, why would you run Thunder of all things when there's Grass Knot? It literally does more in every instance thunder would be used in this meta. This extends to Focus Blast and HP Ground btw. It's hard to justify those moves over Grass Knot, though at least they do have reasons to be used unlike Thunder. EDIT: yeah completely forgot crobat and talon are a thing mb.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Agreed with Haruno. If you want people to start taking this viability ranking thread seriously you shouldn't have Mega Mawile above (mega) Rayquaza.

B-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that fit well in the VGC16 metagame, but they have notable flaws that prevent them from filling their role to the fullest extent. The Pokemon in this tier are either predictable, require some team support to work to its full potential, or are at disadvantageous match-ups against some common threats. The flaws that the Pokemon in this tier have are mostly mitigated by their positive traits.

Mega Mawile literally fits into every single description in there. Why the fuck is it A+.

Also, on Xerneas, why would you run Thunder of all things when there's Grass Knot? It literally does more in every instance thunder would be used in this meta. This extends to Focus Blast and HP Ground btw. It's hard to justify those moves over Grass Knot, though at least they do have reasons to be used unlike Thunder.

Agreed with Mega Mawile being to high. I so have to say it is one of the best megas from my experience but it isn't at the top of one of those "meta centralizing factors." But with SD + Sucker Punch and Iron Head or Play Rough is theatens a lot of things. either B+ or A- is fine with me.

 

[Project_Mars]

Also, on Xerneas, why would you run Thunder of all things when there's Grass Knot? It literally does more in every instance thunder would be used in this meta. This extends to Focus Blast and HP Ground btw. It's hard to justify those moves over Grass Knot, though at least they do have reasons to be used unlike Thunder.

Probably because Thunder can OHKO Crobat, even without a Geomancy Boost, something that +2 Moonblast cant even do.

 

[rhydonphilip]

Agreed with Haruno
Also, on Xerneas, why would you run Thunder of all things when there's Grass Knot? It literally does more in every instance thunder would be used in this meta. This extends to Focus Blast and HP Ground btw. It's hard to justify those moves over Grass Knot, though at least they do have reasons to be used unlike Thunder.

Because the only things Grass knot hit's are Primal Kyogre and have a chance of doing something agaisnt Primal Groundon
Grass Knott:

Hide

----252+ SpA Xerneas Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 102-120 (58.2 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 202-238 (115.4 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 202-238 (97.5 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Primal Groudon: 164-193 (93.7 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primal Groudon: 164-193 (79.2 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
----252+ SpA Xerneas Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Primal Groudon: 82-97 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

calcs in words:

What literally just gives you exactly the same chance Hidden Power Ground would on Primal Groundon making that more redundant then anything. Primal Kyogre on the other hand if running only 4 special defence it did be just as effective to run Thunder as that has 100% to hit under rain aswell, the 252 HP version is the only reason to even run Grass Knot compaired to Thunder, as Thunder gives coverage to: Support Talonflame, Chance (shitty 18%) to 1HKO Crobat with 252 HP and 4 special defence (yes the special defence matters some), 1HKO against a just 4 special defeence Crobat , a small chance to 1HKO a 252 Ho-oH and 1HKOing an offencive oriented Ho-oH.

Hide

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 186-220 (105.6 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 184-218 (88.8 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 132 HP / 4 SpD Talonflame: 370-436 (217.6 - 256.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 132 HP / 4 SpD Talonflame: 186-220 (109.4 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Talonflame: 186-220 (121.5 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 166-196 (86.4 - 102%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
----252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 166-196 (103.7 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (I have no idea who run any stat on Crobat that isn't Speed/HP/sp defence it but this is the calc the guy above me ment)
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh: 192-226 (90.1 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ho-Oh: 192-226 (106 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That at very least is more notable then Grass Knott, and idk about you but i don't use Grass knott agaisnt a Talonflame/Ho-Oh/Crobat 3 of the most well known checks and 2 of the most used answeres in the current metagame against Xerneas. Outside of all that, Thunder has a somewhat fair neutral coverage combined with Moonblast, however in that situation I did fully reason the suggestion of it lacking accuracy and not being too great as it also lacks a bit of force to guarentee 1HKO's that Moonblast would miss out on aswell.

 

[Voltage]

Tentacruel Unranked --> C-
It's able to check Xerneas with Haze, rain provides survivability as well as a strong STAB move. It gives a nice support with moves like Swagger and Acid Spray, overall not awful.
I've been using it with Yveltal to bait Primal Groudon (swagplay).
+2 0- Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 207-243 (100 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Seconding this. Tentacruel works quite well with Pogre since it gets Rain Dish. I've tried weird Semistall set with Sub and Black Sludge, and once Pdon is off the field it's a nightmare for opponents. That said, it's really weak to a lot of things, including Pdon, so C- is really the highest it should go, C is pushing it.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Seconding this. Tentacruel works quite well with Pogre since it gets Rain Dish. I've tried weird Semistall set with Sub and Black Sludge, and once Pdon is off the field it's a nightmare for opponents. That said, it's really weak to a lot of things, including Pdon, so C- is really the highest it should go, C is pushing it.

Thirding this. can't really say much that hasn't been said.

 

[Haruno]

Cresselia A+ => B+ tr isn't good. Mon that sits there and does nothing isn't good either! Also its bulk isn't good enough to be a reliable tr setter and even when it does set up, it does nothing outside of that which makes it mediocre and tr itself is a gimmick in itself.

Mence A => A+/S leaning towards S. Fantastic speed tier, only viable intimidate user and has enough going for it to be really good (draco/dedge/voice/filler) and has utility in TW to not just autolose to bat. Can actually just hit shit till it dies to some effect. Threatens everything relatively well. Pretty much mega ray without using the uber slot. Versatile as well since it's splashable with kanga in teambuilding.

Smeargle A => S between scarf/sash and a combination of moody/dark void/follow me/fake out/transform among other bullshit makes this one of the most overcentralizing mons in the tier and mere presence on the opponent's team forces you to play on the backfoot and thanks to the increased power due to ubers, there is far more opportunity cost to simply double targeting smeargle. Has good enough utility to be effective even against dedicated counter leads such as liepard/bat. This mon is good as fuck.

Bat A => A+ taunt/quick guard/tailwind/BRAVE BAT/super fang is really good lol. Also has fantastic speed tier and immunity to flinch which is huge in such a fake out infested meta. Give it a lum berry and it beats every variant of smeargle as well. Solid af mon. Definitely a step up above everything in A lol. Also pdon + xern + bat is a stupidly strong core.

 

[Tonio]

Greninja is not in the ranking ? It should be at least B : it's fast, has Protean which is a good Ability, has nice coverage : Gunk Shot for Xern // Grass Knot for Primal // HPump and Ice Beam are good coverage too. It has also access to Mat Block, which can be useful (and unexpected) to set the field safe for another teammate.

 

[Project_Mars]

Cress gets Skill Swap, allowing it to reset primal weather, reactivate intimidate, give Primal G levitate, and other shenanigans. In addition it has two other forms of speed control (Thunder Wave and Icy Wind) besides TR, Helping Hand, and a few other support options. It shouldnt really just sit there since it has a few ways it can assist its partner.

I can agree with Mega Salamence for A+, but I am not quite convinced it is on MegaKhan's power level, even in this meta. It is definitely one of the top Megas in this format due to the massive amounts of damage it can put out, and tailwind is a fantastic team support move, so A+ seems like a good fit.

We've all heard the hype about Dark Void Smeargle being "the ruiner" of VGC for the past couple of years... But it never actually got there with only a couple of top cuts in major tournaments. I kinda get the feeling that this maybe the case again and don't think it should be moved up, unless it does incredibly well at the Winter Regionals. It is definitely the current great menace... But it's done that before too (Remember "Khan Artist"? The megaKhan-smeargle lead that was supposed to be too op for school a year or two back?)

Yeah, Crobat should probably be A+, it is one of the best support 'mons available despite the fact that it really does one set. (But man does it do that one set perfectly.)

Edit: seconding the addition of Greninja. It's frail, but fast with an enormous movepool, an amazing ability to attack with, and can pull off a mixed set easily. Why is there a lack of love for Frog Shinobi?

 

[Vengeance417]

I second Cress moving down in the rankings and Crobat moving up to A+ rank. It's nowhere near as meta defining as it was back in '15. Don't get me wrong, it's still really decent, but TR isn't what it used to be with hardly any viable users verses the plethora of good Tailwind users right now (Crobat, Mence, Ray, Talon, Whimsicott, Ho-Oh, ect). The fact that it's now forced to run Mental Herb to block Crobat's Taunt really hinders its bulk when you don't have Sitrus Berry. Being passive as hell in a metagame full of extreme bulk and hard-hitting attackers isn't doing it any favors either. At least Crobat has Super Fang to really cripple a mon's bulk.

Mawile should definitely drop down with Cress. It isn't even that fast in Tailwind (a trend I'm noticing on the ladder recently) has a really bad Primals matchup and as it was said earlier, Trick Room, the best speed control paired with Mawile, is so last season.

I also second Mence moving up to A+ Rank. As Haruno said, it's probably the best Intimidate user in the tier pre-mega while also having a great matchup vs Pdon and is faster and more splashable than Mega Ray.

 

[nightwolf]

I think B+ is too far of a drop, sure it's not as useful as it once was, but there sure as hell no way it's just above average either. And why is everyone so Anti-TR? Did I miss something that TR is garbage in doubles when Ray won worlds the last time Uber legendaries were legal with a TR team?

 

[Haruno]

I think B+ is too far of a drop, sure it's not as useful as it once was, but there sure as hell no way it's just above average either. And why is everyone so Anti-TR? Did I miss something that TR is garbage in doubles when Ray won worlds the last time Uber legendaries were legal with a TR team?

Please don't compare somethings usage in a gen and a half ago with oras. K thx. Comparing bw vgc10 to oras vgc16 is absurd.

Tr just simply isn't good due to lack of good setters and what's worse is even worse abusers of tr. with tr being as unreliable as it is (there isn't a single reliable setter outside maybe shuca dialga but even that loses to like bat + anything or pdon + anything) you just can't afford using it really since your best abusers (slow primals) are absolutely fucked if tr isn't up which will be the majority of the time.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

I want to second Cress for B+, as it's pretty textbook for that range right now. It has a job it does well, but the meta presents major issues for it. The Trick Room support it provides can be game-winning, but it's getting increasingly hard to bring that endgame to bear. It needs Sitrus but it also needs Mental Herb. It needs huge bulk but it also needs to retain some Ice Beam damage output, etc. This comes from a place of genuinely wanting to track this metagame: I like it, but Cress is getting harder to use. (That all said, "gimmick" is too strong a slight for TR, even in its reduced usefulness; it has absolute advantage over Tailwind and still fits comfortably alongside it in teams as a second option.)

This is actually an interesting round of meta shifts, as I feel it might otherwise be stronger: Geomancy Xerneas ---> rise of Smeargle (including Scarf variants) to buy free turns ---> rise of support Crobat ---> more Eruption/Water Spout primals to take advantage of Tailwind and Super Fang ---> Massive spread damage, Super Fang and more common Taunt making it very hard for Cresselia to be fully effective. That's not all that's happened, of course, but it doesn't help.

Source: hundreds of games with Cress in the 1600 ELO range.

Smeargle and Bat are probably the best two supporters in the format right now, although Talonflame may fit better on certain teams, and wherever Crobat goes, it should follow or stay one rank below. It shouldn't be higher though.

 

[Haruno]

Crobat outclasses talon (unless you're running quick guard bat in which case talon is by far superior) since flinch immunity is far more valuable than prioritiy brave bird since you're no longer forced into 50-50's against smeargle, has less to lose against Kanga/liepard/weavile. Also it's far more threatening due to super fang outdamaging brave bird on most targets anyhow. Talon's overreliance on prediction compared to crobat makes it strictly worse except for against xern in late game I suppose where bat's fang/brave bat will be less effective then, but at that point bat will have fulfilled its role so eh. If anything bat should always be at least one rank over talon if not more due to better utility.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Crobat outclasses talon (unless you're running quick guard bat in which case talon is by far superior) since flinch immunity is far more valuable than prioritiy brave bird since you're no longer forced into 50-50's against smeargle, has less to lose against Kanga/liepard/weavile. Also it's far more threatening due to super fang outdamaging brave bird on most targets anyhow. Talon's overreliance on prediction compared to crobat makes it strictly worse except for against xern in late game I suppose where bat's fang/brave bat will be less effective then, but at that point bat will have fulfilled its role so eh. If anything bat should always be at least one rank over talon if not more due to better utility.

I more or less agree with this, and Crobat's more splashable. It's simply worth noting that 1) Both have access to near identical tools and hit many big threats for ~50%, but that Talonflame works with a Trick Room option and can actually close games, which Crobat cannot if it's running the fairly common Super Fang/Taunt/Quick Guard/Tailwind set (though maybe that's not ideal; I've avoided it for lack of pressure after Super Fang). Having true priority is also useful.

I wouldn't object to Bat being one rank higher though. Like, at all. I just wouldn't say "more" at this point.

 

[Haruno]

No clue why people prefer quick guard > brave bat on crobat since you're tossing aside crobat' biggest advantage over talon in being pseudo immune to priority Fake out and thus lets it play some mind games against the likes of Kanga/liepard/weavile whereas talon just loses. Not to mention I find quick guard to be incredibly unreliable but eh. The only crobat set I'd really say is useful is brave bat/super fang/tailwind/taunt. Anything else is more or less a worse talon. Shrug

 

[Whiskey Tango]

No clue why people prefer quick guard > brave bat on crobat since you're tossing aside crobat' biggest advantage over talon in being pseudo immune to priority Fake out and thus lets it play some mind games against the likes of Kanga/liepard/weavile whereas talon just loses. Not to mention I find quick guard to be incredibly unreliable but eh. The only crobat set I'd really say is useful is brave bat/super fang/tailwind/taunt. Anything else is more or less a worse talon. Shrug

I think I agree with this. I've been seeing a lot of no-Brave-Bird bats, but unless I really need Taunt off the field, I end up ignoring them at some point. I don't think it's a great set; just a common one still. Maybe it'll fade out.

At any rate, I think it being "more or less a worse Talon" depending on its fourth moveslot choice (and it's not like Quick Guard isn't useful, though you don't want to rely on predicting with it; better used to lock down a favorable situation) does speak to them remaining close in the rankings for now.

 

[Vengeance417]

Normal Gengar should be ranked somewhere. Its Sash set is cool, being able to WoW Kanga and Taunt Xerneas before it can set up a Geomancy. It has an opportunity cost due to its mega being better in a lot of ways, but I still believe that normal Gengar has a niche in being a mon with WoW and Taunt that doesn't lose to Xerneas (looking at Sableye) while not taking a mega slot (Mega Gengar). Normal Gengar is also immune to dual STAB-only Primal Groudon while Primordial Sea is active, which is neat.