VGC 2016 Viability Rankings

Status
Not open for further replies.

Arcticblast

Trans rights are human rights
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Haruno Yveltal has a good bit going for it, including being the best answer to Cresselia in the metagame, but its niche really boils down to "spam Dark Pulse and Sucker Punch"

the only relevant things that aren't immediately threatened by Yveltal are Xerneas (who can't switch in on max SpA Oblivion Wing or it loses) and Mawile; everything else takes a metric fuck ton from Dark Pulse or Foul Play. Literally one of those + Sucker Punch will KO anything that doesn't resist Dark except for like Chansey but who's using that exactly?

Swampert I'm inclined to agree but in its defense it's a Swift Swim user that threatens Primal Groudon (the next best options are like Kingdra and Seismitoad so...)
 

Vinc2612

The V stands for VGC
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I'm gonna start with the A-rank since you asked to keep at 3-4 Pokemon at the time.

Aegislash is way too high. He just can't do the same stuff as before. He still has those amazing stats, but the 80 BP stab hurts more than ever. It needs GyroBall or a boosted Iron Head to get the OHKO on Xerneas (and GyroBall is terrible against everything else, even Mega-Rayquaza is hitting slightly more by Iron Head). Said Xerneas that could still escape his fate with protect, so not that reliable without another Pokémon dedicated to threaten Xerneas. Otherwise it can't hurt Groudon, it can't hurt Kyogre, it can't hurt mega Ray in his weather... The only thing he does reliably is messing with the opposing spread moves. Would put it in B/B-. Definitely under Ferrothorn, who is usually a better steel.

Smeargle for A+. Steven Stone said it all, maybe a bit overselling, but the overall idea is there. The DV accuracy is the only think I don't like about it, but even if you miss, the sole presence in the team preview is a good weapon.

Thundurus for A-. Liepard has encore (and fake out to an extend) and the sash gives it more or less the same bulk as Thundurus. His main niche is to beat Rayquaza and Salamence I guess, but since those are ranked A, I'm not sure it's worth the same rank.
 
Mawile => B- same boat as aegis but it also costs the mega slot and still sucks ass against common threats bar Kanga/cress/brobat/liepard and pretty hard to justify using over Ray/Kanga/mence etc also sucks ass against pogre and pdon especially zzz

Yveltal => B wtf does this even do. Why would you run it over xern/Ray/pdon/pogre

Ho-oh => B read yveltal description.
Mawile's fantastic right now, with Trick Room being one of the most dominant forms of speed control right now (which stops GeoXern in its tracks) and all of the Xerneas and Yveltal (will get to this mon soon btw) running around using their Aura abilities that benefit both of Mawile's main attacks in Play Rough and Sucker Punch respectively.

Yveltal is an absolute nightmare. It has Dark Aura-boosted attacks in Dark Pulse (which does a ton at max investment to just about anything that doesn't resist it), Sucker Punch (Yveltal's in particular is the strongest priority attack in the game) and Foul Play (PuP Kanga and DD Mence/SD Ray beware). Great support options in Taunt to stop opposing support Pokemon and Tailwind as a form of speed control. DA-boosted Snarl is actually a fun support option to weaken Special Attackers. It has good flying coverage in Oblivion Wing which can heal you in a pinch when finishing off certain Pokemon.
Dark Aura boosts your own Pokemon's Dark type attacks as well, such as Kanga's and Mawile's Sucker Punches.

Ho-Oh is one of the best offensive Xerneas checks next to Primal Groudon. In fact, since the main GeoXern set right now only consists of Moonblast or Dazzling Gleam + HP Ground, it actually does a better job at tanking hits from it than Pdon. Ho-Oh's ability to check both Special Attackers with its absolutely stupid SpDef stat of 154 with nice resistances and Physical Attackers not named Pdon with 50% Sacred Fire burns (especially those that are Desolate Land-boosted along with whatever item you're running) is something to not take lightly. It can check Special Pdon variants not running Rock coverage, special Yveltal and even Pogre can't do much to it with Desolate Land up (Pdon and Ho-Oh make a fantastic dual fire core). It can set up Tailwind for its team as well, and a fast Ho-Oh is terrifying.
 
Last edited:
I personally like Yveltal where its at right now, As Vengeance said foul play dark pulse spam is pretty good especially against anything with set up moves like ddance, PuP, and Swords dance. It also outspeeds both primal groudon and primal kyogre with a +speed nature or with a choice scarf if you run modest. And if you run modest, as Vengeance already said it does a shit ton of damage to anything that doesn't resist dark pulse/foul play.

It can also survive a Stone Edge from Primal Groudon, and take an Ice Beam/Origin Pulse from Primal Kyogre like a champ while giving its teammate a chance to finish off some low hanging fruit. Which is something things like Ho-oh(Minus ice beam), Crobat, Thundurus, can't claim to do.

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 168-198 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 109-130 (61.9 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 146-174 (72.2 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal in Heavy Rain: 150-177 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 100-118 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
I'm surprised at the lack of Meowstic-M on the rankings. As a Prankster mon, it already has an advantage over some Pokemon in the metagame. Now, to list some of the things Meowstic-M can do, here are some:
  • Fake Out support is valuable for Xerneas, and that thing is a top tier threat. Meowstic's speed tier is also a really comfortable one, so you can literally click Fake Out with little Pokemon being able to outspeed you.
  • Ok, so Charm is also relatively valuable in this metagame. Kangaskhan and physical Primal Groudon variants despise it, and it can shut down a lot of threats with it such as Ferrothorn and physical Mega Salamence.
  • Prankster Thunder Wave is something Thundurus has, but if your team needs something to Prankster T-Wave that has access to Fake Out and doesn't stack up an Ice-type or Rock-type weakness, Meowstic-M is the big play. Meowstic-M can also be relatively faster than other Prankster, with a base 104 Speed only outsped by 3 prankster Pokemon: Whimsicott, Liepard, and Thundurus (this one is debatable, as many Thundurus now prefer bulk over speed, and i doubt we're going to see a Life Orb Thundurus becoming relevant in a tournament this early)
  • The big one of the list is definitely Quick Guard. Mega Rayquaza's Extreme-Speed, Yveltal's Sucker Punch, Kangaskhan's Fake Out, Giratina-O's Shadow Sneak, you name it. This new metagame is full of threatening priority attacks, which makes Quick Guard valuable for some teams.
  • Oh, and also. Did you know that Meowstic-M gives 0 fucks about Smeargle? Safeguard boys.
Well, that's some reasoning. As far as nomination goes, this thing should be C+ / B- because it's truly outclassed by some Pranksters like Whimsicott and Liepard, specially Liepard. Well, up to you guys to discuss Meowstic-M. This thing CANNOT be unranked, specially when it does the things mentioned above.
Thing with Quick Guard: Meowstic is the only pokemon with what is, imo, an actually functioning Quick Guard, because it can actually stop Fake Out (even Weavile's), meaning it ACTUALLY BLOCKS all the priority attacks.
Meowstic I have not gotten to use but god damn has it been an amazing opponent. I must try it at some point.

Klefki also has Crafty Shield and Safeguard to fuck Smeargle.
 

Braverius

snowls
is a Past SPL Champion
Fwiw this is mostly based on theory of the format, nothing I feel confident in yet but the ones that are blue/red you can probably assume should be moving in that direction. Yellow/orange/green are ones I'm either unsure enough on to suggest a big move or feel they're pretty close to where they're placed.

Black / unbolded = I don't have enough experience with it to judge at all
RED = Down more than 1 tier
ORANGE = Down a notch
YELLOW = Belongs where it is
GREEN = Up a notch
BLUE = Up more than 1 tier


Also where is Mega Venusaur? It's super untested and might honestly be awful in the end but I think it has its place until it's actually effectively damned into the abyss, maybe in B-C range
...also no Mega Gardevoir? That one is actually pretty surprising to not see while things like Camerupt and Lucario are on the list. It deals consistent enough damage to Kang/Groudon/Xerneas and has utility with Encore and other niche things (TR, Ally Switch for bo1 cheese, Imprison.)

S Rank
Mega-Kangaskhan
Primal Groudon
Xerneas


S- Rank
Primal Kyogre

A-Rank


A+ Rank
Aegislash
Cresselia
Mega-Gengar

Mega-Mawile

Talonflame


A Rank
Crobat

Liepard
Mega-Rayquaza

Mega-Salamence
Smeargle

Thundurus


A- Rank
Dialga

Ferrothorn

Giratina-O

Ho-Oh

Landorus-T

Palkia

Yveltal


B-Rank


B+ Rank
Amoonguss

Kyurem-W

Landorus-I

Mega-Lopunny
Mewtwo
Rayquaza

Togekiss

Weavile

Whimsicott


B Rank
Clefable
Clefairy

Conkeldurr

Giratina-A

Goodra
Gothitelle
Mega-Mewtwo-X
Mienshao
Tornadus


B- Rank
Chansey

Hariyama
Infernape
Ludicolo
Lugia
Mega-Mewtwo-Y

Mega-Swampert

Parasect
Porygon2
Scizor
Venusaur


C-Rank


C+ Rank
Blissey

Cherim

Gyarados

Hydreigon
Kingdra

Kyogre

Kyurem-B
Latios
Latias
Machamp

Mega-Camerupt

Mega-Houndoom
Mega Lucario
Mega-Metagross

Sableye

Staraptor

[/hide]
 
I think Mega-Mewtwo Y is too low. I run a bulky modest variant - psystrike/ice beam/protect/recover. Just enough speed to outspeed base 100's when mega evolved. Survives a jolly Mega-Kanga's sucker punch and a jolly Mega-ray's life orb boosted dragon ascent. I like it because they always expect it to be just a regular Mewtwo or a Mewtwo X, and insomnia always trolls Smeargle users. I was running Mega-Ray, but I like the Mewtwo better.
Aegislash definitely does not deserve to be A rank.
As far as I can tell, the only viable megas' for serious competitors are: Ray, Mewtwo, Kanga, Maw, Gengar, Mence. Anything else is gimmicky at best.
 
Last edited:
What people are saying about aegis is not true.A+ just fits him.He acts as a xern killer,viable wide guard user,kanga checker,maw checker,mence checker,your mewtwo set checker Damo,and can be used for killing ray+mence and thats in one pokemon and can do it effectively.You guys are definetly underselling aegis abilities because of your inexperience of using him in 16.
 
What people are saying about aegis is not true.A+ just fits him.He acts as a xern killer,viable wide guard user,kanga checker,maw checker,mence checker,your mewtwo set checker Damo,and can be used for killing ray+mence and thats in one pokemon and can do it effectively.You guys are definetly underselling aegis abilities because of your inexperience of using him in 16.
Nah, Aegislash is good but not A+ material. It does the things you mentioned, yes, but in all honestly, losing to Primal Groudon doesn't truly let him be in A+ and the damage it can do is truly underwhelming. Imo A is more suited for it.
 
Nah, Aegislash is good but not A+ material. It does the things you mentioned, yes, but in all honestly, losing to Primal Groudon doesn't truly let him be in A+ and the damage it can do is truly underwhelming. Imo A is more suited for it.
well yeah i will agree on it being A but definetly not some BS rating of B.
 
posting in bullets because its easier/im tournying rn
Kyogre-Primal to S:
1. Split S ranks is bad.
2. Kyogre is somthing that if your team doesnt have a GOOD answer to your going to lose. 100% of the time.
3. Primal weather is amazing right now and most likely the entire season.

Aegislash to A-/B+
1. Loses to almost all the A-S ranks right now only beats Kanga and cress and... Gengar?
2. Cannot do its(in my opinion) one job in killing Xerneas. This is VERY important as when a pokemon cannot do its one job then it drops
3. Low power base attacks as its main moves really hurts it so that it cannot do the above.
4. Unless sub you need to King's Shield after every attack and opponents know this and can play around it.

Ditto to B/B-
1. With the insane amount of power VGC 16 has Ditto can act as any of these pokemon from the tankiest wall to the most set up Xerneas. Right now it feels almost like a blanket check to all of the popular pokemon.

Mega Rayquaza to A+
Can people please stop underestimating this Pokemon.
1. OHKO nearly everything that isnt cress/resists
2.
Any flaws that these Pokemon have can be taken care of with little to no team support.
aka a ice resist
3. multiple viable sets that are physical special+ DA, mixed

also where is Trevenant? S material to me
 
oh craps.
new cals:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. +2 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 128-152 (63.3 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (74 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 162-192 (80.1 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

it still cant KO
 
I think (mega)blaziken deserves to be ranked at least in B, it s really powerful espescialy under groudon s sun and speed boost makes it very scary:
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas in Sun: 208-247 (92.8 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
 
I think (mega)blaziken deserves to be ranked at least in B, it s really powerful espescialy under groudon s sun and speed boost makes it very scary:
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas in Sun: 208-247 (92.8 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
M-blaziken isn't B worthy, same with regular. Dies to way too many things in doubles format that its a joke to even consider an option outside the big 4 of non-legendary megas.

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Blaziken: 258-306 (165.3 - 196.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blaziken in Heavy Rain: 356-422 (228.2 - 270.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Those are 2 multi target moves that deal less damage in doubles and they're still OHKO'ing it with ease. At best its a C+ mon right now
 
oh craps.
new cals:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. +2 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 128-152 (63.3 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (74 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 162-192 (80.1 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

it still cant KO
Yo where's dat Geomancy speed boost? If you're using Flash Cannon Aegis you shouldn't honestly play this season. Gyro Ball is by far better because of killing +2 Xern and also dealing more damage to the likes of Mega Ray and Mega Kang.
 
I think (mega)blaziken deserves to be ranked at least in B, it s really powerful espescialy under groudon s sun and speed boost makes it very scary:
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas in Sun: 208-247 (92.8 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Definitely normal Blaziken should be ranked somewhere (don't know where myself because I don't have experience with it in '16 so far) but from what I can see, I don't necessarily see a reason to use its Mega imo when I can use Mega Kanga/Mawile/Rayquayquay while having the benefits of a Speed Boost Blaziken that works better with a Life Orb than a heavily-contested Mega Evolution slot.
 
Yo where's dat Geomancy speed boost? If you're using Flash Cannon Aegis you shouldn't honestly play this season. Gyro Ball is by far better because of killing +2 Xern and also dealing more damage to the likes of Mega Ray and Mega Kang.
Well back in the day flash cannon was its best steel stab option, but yeah anyone running it over gyro ball is crazy.
 
Well back in the day flash cannon was its best steel stab option, but yeah anyone running it over gyro ball is crazy.
Hell, I'm feeling the mixed Substitute set just so that I don't have to worry about Intimidate being a problem. Of course, it'd need some speed to pull off but I feel like that'd would be the best way for me to use Aegislash rn imo
 
Yo where's dat Geomancy speed boost? If you're using Flash Cannon Aegis you shouldn't honestly play this season. Gyro Ball is by far better because of killing +2 Xern and also dealing more damage to the likes of Mega Ray and Mega Kang.
im p sure i calcd it with the boost
 
im p sure i calcd it with the boost
This is what I got when calcing with the boost, and this is with just 108 EVs in Speed on Xerneas, many run more:

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (92 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 204-240 (101.4 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also it would be nice if we could get some real discussion instead of half a page of trying to calc Gyro Ball correctly lol

On another note, Rotom-Wash should be higher than C-. Yes, it has gotten worse this season, but it still has things that it can WoW, it's actually a pretty good M-Ray check (if they don't carry Lum). Kyogre can't do that much to it either, although not being able to touch Pdon sucks. That is the major factor that I think lead to the drop, but I really think that C- is a bit to harsh, especially considering that stuff like Heliolisk is above it.

Also please get Rotom-Frost out of D-rank and away to the lands of unranked.
 
Aegislash ohko's GeoXern unless the deer spends good chunk of it's EV's in it's bulk instead of speed which can really compromise it's role as a cleaner so it works as a check in theory at least, in practice it isn't as good as a check for different reasons. Aegislash's actual problem as Xerneas check is that it's so easy to provide support for the legendary deer, and since Aegis will usually be the last mon to attack on the field (if it plans to use Gyro Ball efficiently at least) it needs to tank not only Xerneas's moonblast but also it's partner's attack. Not to mention if the Aegis user tries to hit Xern as it protects it is seriously vulnerable and straight up dead fodder for anything with offense pressure.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top