Landorus is not just dropping from new-toy Incineroar. It is also dropping because of other threats that it can't fight. I run AV Lando but I can still be OHKOed by a choice band Ice shard, or M-meta Ice punch
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Resource VGC 2018 Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Netherious
- Start date
Just finished up at Perth VGC Regionals and made Top 8. Can post a war story if anyone actually cares. But the main point is this:
Only 1 Landorus in Top 8....
Which actually sucked a bit because I ran Milotic. She did me proud because of all the Incineroars (and Manectric to a lesser extent) running around though.
Only 1 Landorus in Top 8....
Which actually sucked a bit because I ran Milotic. She did me proud because of all the Incineroars (and Manectric to a lesser extent) running around though.
Congrats! I would read it, seemed like a good tournament.
A war story would be most welcome. What tier?
Hey, by the way, who played the March IC ? Did you saw a disgusting amount of Scarfed special Landorus? I did. Thanks Wolfey. (I was expecting it though, thankfully lol)
Also, I was thinking that maybe we could try a Viability Rankings for Archetypes or Cores. You have several, and each has its pros and cons.
We have:
Gross-Fini-Ttar
Kommo-Gengar-Bulu
Cress-Lax
Goth-Mawile
Ludi-Politoed
and so on, and so on
Also, I was thinking that maybe we could try a Viability Rankings for Archetypes or Cores. You have several, and each has its pros and cons.
We have:
Gross-Fini-Ttar
Kommo-Gengar-Bulu
Cress-Lax
Goth-Mawile
Ludi-Politoed
and so on, and so on
I like the thoughts behind this, but I'm against the idea. The strength of the cores would be largely reflected in the individual Pokemon's rankings. Individual rankings also account for other Pokemon that can form these cores, like Porygon2 instead of Cress in Cress-Lax, Pelipper for Ludi-toed, and Lele instead of Fini for Gross-Fini-Tar. This idea is also somewhat like ranking teams straight from the get-go, without taking into account the entire team.
What I think would be good, leading on from your suggestion, would be a separate thread discussing the cores and why they're good / they're weaknesses. it could also combine elements from this Doubles thread, detailing frameworks for different archetypes with example teams noting the common elements in those teams. Of course, someone needs to be willing to post and run said thread.
I don't think there should be ANYTHING in S tier right now. The metagame is more diverse now than it has been since VGC 18 started, and Incineroar has its weaknesses. No one pokemon is really a MUST to consider putting on your team, which is what I think S tier should basically mean.
Good idea. Instead of raking them, we just discuss them and try to figure out the best way to deal with them. I am not sure I have the time to create the whole thread, but I can help with it
Yeah, that's what I think as well. Right now, you're not at a dissadvantage by not bringing Landorus. Neither with Incineroar, both are top tier pokemon, but both have to be played smart now so it can keep up because of so many people preparing for it.
Agreed
I also don't think that anything should be S-rank right now. Instead, both Lando and Incineroar should be A+, with some A+ rank mons in return dropping to A.
Aegislash in especial doesn't scream A+ to me anymore; solely because it gets cucked by Incineroar very hard and looking at it's usage, it's only 19th - some mons that are A- are more used than it! It still has great matchup against a lot of mons, but considering it can be hurt by two the most used mons quite well (it can play around Lando, unless the Lando has Z-stone, which in that case just destroys Aegi). It's still a great mon, just not worth being at the highest tier, assuming if Lando dropped to A+. .
Aegislash in especial doesn't scream A+ to me anymore; solely because it gets cucked by Incineroar very hard and looking at it's usage, it's only 19th - some mons that are A- are more used than it! It still has great matchup against a lot of mons, but considering it can be hurt by two the most used mons quite well (it can play around Lando, unless the Lando has Z-stone, which in that case just destroys Aegi). It's still a great mon, just not worth being at the highest tier, assuming if Lando dropped to A+. .
I don't know that I would drop Aegi, but he is my second fave mon (Behind Golisopod)
I don’t think Ferrothorn should drop to b, maybe b+. When used right, you really can’t just ignore Ferrothorn and attack it’s other partner, or it just sets up sub and seed and becomes invincible. You can switch it in a ton of stuff, and it punishes fake out dearly.
Yes, it doesn’t have much offensive presence, but rocky helmet and leech seed add up. I learned the hard way that you don’t ignore Ferrothorn, at least not for long, or you suddenly find out half your health is gone and he’s got sub up.
While I don’t think it should stay in a, cos incineroar, b seems low.
And yes, incineroar should be a+. It’s scrafty with offensive presence, amazing typing and better speed, what more could you ask for?
Yes, it doesn’t have much offensive presence, but rocky helmet and leech seed add up. I learned the hard way that you don’t ignore Ferrothorn, at least not for long, or you suddenly find out half your health is gone and he’s got sub up.
While I don’t think it should stay in a, cos incineroar, b seems low.
And yes, incineroar should be a+. It’s scrafty with offensive presence, amazing typing and better speed, what more could you ask for?
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Hi! I have been for a while without posting anything here because I couldn't find any spare time, but now I can so I am going to post some thoughts on here.
First of all, sorry for my Milotic's comments, they were incorrect and I was proved wrong. It is a really good Pokémon, as now every team has around 2 or 3 Intimidate users, minimun 1, so your opponent can't avoid bringing one of them. Although it is weak against some meta Pokémon such as Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini or grass types such as Ferrothorn or Kartana.
I would like to make this VR a VR that has actual viable Pokémon, so I'm going to propose some minor changes (some Pokémon to lower tiers or UR):
Aerodactyl from C to C-/UR
Mamoswine from C to C-/UR
Vanilluxe from C to UR
Rhyperior from C- to UR
Salazzle from C- to UR (now that we have Incineroar, Salazzle has a very very small niche that is hard to justify using it over the cat).
Sandslash-Alola from C- to UR (stop using hail it is by far the worst archetype)
Blissey from Eevee-rank to UR (there is no actual reason to use it over Chansey)
Other few mentions:
Mega Kangaskhan from A- to B+ (yo big mamma is no longer big)
Pelipper from B+ to B (Politoed is better, access to Helping Hand is really huge for rain sweepers)
Mega Swampert from B+ to B (Mega Swampert's niche is really small for two reasons: 1. Hard rain is bad, and that's the team where it shines and 2. Other mega evolutions that help the other rain sweepers are preferable, as Mega Mawile, Mega Salamence or even Mega Scizor)
Kingdra from B to B- (Kingdra's niche is really small, Ludicolo is a better rain sweeper, although Kingdra has more raw power, but its typing is not great and can't deal damage to Tapu Fini, the main answer to rain)
Some mentions to Pokémon that haven't seen any use or just a little use because there are Pokémon that make their role better than them so there are few reasons to use them:
Hydreigon from B+ to B- (this Pokémon is bad, as every single dragon type apart from Mega Charizard X, Mega Salamence and Kommo-o)
Hawlucha from B- to C+ (this Pokémon is bad, use seed Zapdos instead lol)
Thundurus from B- to C+ (Tapu Koko, Zapdos or even Thundurus-T are the main electric types, and I can't see a niche where Thundurus would shine; but maybe I'm wrong, I'm not quite sure with this).
About the other changes mentioned:
Aegislash from A+ to A: I'm not sure... Aegislash hasn't seen huge usage, but when it is used it's really good at what it does. When you click Z-move the other player has to pick one if they don't have P2 or Incineroar. Maybe Incineroar's rise is a reason for it to drop, but King's Shield + Sub is a really good combination against Incineroar, as Inci always runs contact moves to deal with Aegislash and you have a 50/50 game with King's Shield + Sub where you can have a free sub and win the war... I don't know...
Ferrothorn from A- to B+: I have been using Ferrothorn for the first time after VGC18 got released and I have to say that it's really really good. It is a huge offensive threat, and it can stall you out with Leech Seed. Wins against every single tapu which is very good, and deals with rain with ease. It can run CB or pinch berry so you can surprise KO or suprise recover which is awesome. Maybe with Incineroar's appearance and high usage is difficult to use it, but if you run it with Milotic or rain it is a huge threat, so idk ^^'
Landorus-T from S to A+: mmmm... It's kinda' difficult... Landorus was used because it was the main intimidate user, but now we have other intimidators so it's no longer a must use. I have to say that AV sets are really good, as they tank a lot and support with Knock Off, Rock Tomb and gain momentum with U-Turn and Scarf sets do the same with U-Turn while being a little bit more offensive, whereas SD sets with Groundium or Flyinium are super strong and only lose to a few Pokémon such as Celesteela, but SD + Z is one of the biggest threats in the meta imo. You can't know Lando's set from the beggining, and that is really good for it. I think it should remain S tier.
Mega Charizard Y from A+ to A: I agree with this nom. Tapu Koko is big, Incineroar is big, Fini is big, Tyranitar is big... Charizard Y is still a huge threat, but it doesn't have the opportunities it had in the past because the meta has changed a lot.
I want to nominate a few mons from UR that I have used and I think they are good, although they have a really small niche:
Mega Blaziken from UR to C/C+: this Pokémon is a monster. It has seen huge opportunities since Lando has dropped. Its only answer right now is Fini (and maybe Azu), because it has huge raw power. SD or Bulk Up sets are really strong, and are potential threats.
Staraptor from UR to C+/B-: Scarf Staraptor is really good on full room teams or set-up teams. It can KO most of the metagame with Final Gambit: every tapu, P2, Metagross, Ludicolo, Charizard... And it is faster than Ludicolo in rain, and that's quite good. Intimidate also helps a lot to set up TR, and that's why I think it should be ranked.
Accelgor from UR to C/C+: Accelgor Lele is a core that, personally I don't like, but it's powerful, as not every team has answers to that. Accelgor itself is a fine support Pokémon: Acid Spray, Final Gambit, Encore... and with 216 speed can help a lot. Then, it has Unburden, so it is the fastest Pokémon in the metagame.
Later I will make other noms, because this post is becoming quite big xD
I will upload mini sprites so it looks better, but now I don't have time for it.
First of all, sorry for my Milotic's comments, they were incorrect and I was proved wrong. It is a really good Pokémon, as now every team has around 2 or 3 Intimidate users, minimun 1, so your opponent can't avoid bringing one of them. Although it is weak against some meta Pokémon such as Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini or grass types such as Ferrothorn or Kartana.
I would like to make this VR a VR that has actual viable Pokémon, so I'm going to propose some minor changes (some Pokémon to lower tiers or UR):
Other few mentions:
Some mentions to Pokémon that haven't seen any use or just a little use because there are Pokémon that make their role better than them so there are few reasons to use them:
About the other changes mentioned:
I want to nominate a few mons from UR that I have used and I think they are good, although they have a really small niche:
Later I will make other noms, because this post is becoming quite big xD
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Lele-Accelgor is a f'ing threat. It makes me sweat when taking on it. It is not unbeatable, but Unburden Accelgor + Scarfed Lele is so hard to take on.
Yes, Unburden + Psy Seed. Acid Spray + Scarf Psyspam from Lele. It also has Final Gambit and Encore
I higly disagree with Mamoswine dropping, let alone it being Unranked. It still has the typing, power, and moves to be an offensive threat. Its sash rocks lead set is also good in this metagame. Keep it at C
This is VGC, not singles. Sash Rocks makes 0 sense here lol
Oh! I'm retarted.. I thought this was OU. Nevermind he's B rank in OU. Idk much about mamo in VGC so idk what to say lol
Is there at least one Top Cut with Mamoswine? Haven't seen one. Scizor is really good on rain teams though
Unsure how much weight this ranking places on the use of Pokemon compared to the viability of Pokemon. By that, I mean a lot of these Pokemon are never seen and were only used at the beginning of the format. Now with the metagame developing, would we keep them ranked based on viability determined by theorymon (since we haven't seen them being used for a long time, I'd say a lot of opinions on these would be theorymon), or unrank them since we literally haven't seen them. Not sure if any of us has used these recently and can legitmately say (I've used this recently and extensively, and it sucks remove it). This would weigh in on my decision on most of this stuff on whether stuff should be C- or UR.Hi! I have been for a while without posting anything here because I couldn't find any spare time, but now I can so I am going to post some thoughts on here.
First of all, sorry for my Milotic's comments, they were incorrect and I was proved wrong. It is a really good Pokémon, as now every team has around 2 or 3 Intimidate users, minimun 1, so your opponent can't avoid bringing one of them. Although it is weak against some meta Pokémon such as Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini or grass types such as Ferrothorn or Kartana.
I would like to make this VR a VR that has actual viable Pokémon, so I'm going to propose some minor changes (some Pokémon to lower tiers or UR):
Aerodactyl from C to C-/UR
Mamoswine from C to C-/UR
Vanilluxe from C to UR
Rhyperior from C- to UR
Salazzle from C- to UR (now that we have Incineroar, Salazzle has a very very small niche that is hard to justify using it over the cat).
Sandslash-Alola from C- to UR (stop using hail it is by far the worst archetype)
Blissey from Eevee-rank to UR (there is no actual reason to use it over Chansey)
This would influence me for these Pokemon:
-Mamoswine is C- or UR. I haven't seen this in forever, and it's not a Pokemon I would really consider using over say Lando-T and placing an Ice-move on a different Pookemon.
-Vanilluxe. Could technically consider viable as Scarf by theorymon, but in practice would never use it. C- or UR.
-Sandslash-Alola. Same deal, theorymon viable but would never use
-Rhyperior. Theorymon wise useful in a metagame where Koko and Zapdos are very common, but haven't seen forever, would likely use Scarf Lando-T instead to check them. Unfortunately does not stop Zapdos from using Tailwind which is a large reason for its use, and Scarf Lando-T survives all HP Ice without item boosts. Also on theorymon, same deal with Rhydon
-Blissey. There is a use for it over Chansey; it can hold Electric/Grassy Seed. More useful on teams that use Minimize/CM Blissey, or Psych Up, but I have not seen that since last year's format lol.
I've seen Aeordactyl on Showdown. I'd keep it ranked in C on virtue of it putting in work thanks to its high Speed + useful support movepool (most notably Tailwind and Sky Drop, also Taunt and Wide Guard).
Keep Salazzle C-; it's niche hasn't changed much despite Incineroar. Its niche was an anti-meta Fake Out user thanks to a combination of Speed and both its STABs, Sludge Bomb being useful for the Tapus. Incineroar has only touched on the Fire FO user part but lacks the other parts. of note, Salazzle fairs better against Kartana, outspeeding it and not fearing Sacred Sword.
On this note, I would also drop Abomasnow and its Mega form for the reasons you are nominating these to drop. Mega drop to C- since you could theorymon wise use it on a TR team, covers some important threats like Fini, and as a form of weather control. Abomasnow UR since its bad and roles can be done better by other Pokemon.
In the lower tiers, I would also justify moving Primarina UP to C from C-, despite me wanting it in D before. Its made top cut more than once on Zard X teams, on virtue of its synergistic typing with the team and having the niche of not setting up Misty Terrain.
I also think Smeargle should be C ranked instead of Eevee rank. Unlike the other Eevee rank members, it can actually be used on proper teams with 5 other normal Pokemon purely for its support capabilities.
I agree with ranking MBlazekin Staraptor and Accelgor in C+Other few mentions:
Mega Kangaskhan from A- to B+ (yo big mamma is no longer big) Agree, would even support B. It's been a long time since it's made top Cut.
Pelipper from B+ to B (Politoed is better, access to Helping Hand is really huge for rain sweepers) Disagree. Rain teams also really enjoy Flying-type STAB and Tailwind, the latter somewhat filling in the role of Helping Hand (if Pelipper outspeeds the opposing team, then its Scald would cover the damage that would be gained from Helping Hand.
Mega Swampert from B+ to B (Mega Swampert's niche is really small for two reasons: 1. Hard rain is bad, and that's the team where it shines and 2. Other mega evolutions that help the other rain sweepers are preferable, as Mega Mawile, Mega Salamence or even Mega Scizor) Agree
Kingdra from B to B- (Kingdra's niche is really small, Ludicolo is a better rain sweeper, although Kingdra has more raw power, but its typing is not great and can't deal damage to Tapu Fini, the main answer to rain). Abstain
Some mentions to Pokémon that haven't seen any use or just a little use because there are Pokémon that make their role better than them so there are few reasons to use them:
Hydreigon from B+ to B- (this Pokémon is bad, as every single dragon type apart from Mega Charizard X, Mega Salamence and Kommo-o). Agree
Hawlucha from B- to C+ (this Pokémon is bad, use seed Zapdos instead lol). Agree. Also arguably worse than Drilfbim for pure support. and ironically this is more evident with Incineroar being more common since it's actually affected by Fake Out
Thundurus from B- to C+ (Tapu Koko, Zapdos or even Thundurus-T are the main electric types, and I can't see a niche where Thundurus would shine; but maybe I'm wrong, I'm not quite sure with this). Abstain. Thundurus' niche is prankster, but haven't seen this for a while
About the other changes mentioned:
Aegislash from A+ to A: I'm not sure... Aegislash hasn't seen huge usage, but when it is used it's really good at what it does. When you click Z-move the other player has to pick one if they don't have P2 or Incineroar. Maybe Incineroar's rise is a reason for it to drop, but King's Shield + Sub is a really good combination against Incineroar, as Inci always runs contact moves to deal with Aegislash and you have a 50/50 game with King's Shield + Sub where you can have a free sub and win the war... I don't know... I would say A. It isn't just Incineroar; it's also that lots of common Pokemon that can hit it super-effectively, more so than at the start of the format. Incineroar, Kommo with Flamethrower (most Kommo), MGross with Stomping Tantrum (most MGross, and MGross can survive Shadow Ball unless its Z form). but Pokemon it used to do well against are dropping in usage like MMence and MKang. Yes it can King's Shield against MGross and Incineroar, though they are 50/50s. Incineroar can bypass KS' with Snarl too.
Ferrothorn from A- to B+: I have been using Ferrothorn for the first time after VGC18 got released and I have to say that it's really really good. It is a huge offensive threat, and it can stall you out with Leech Seed. Wins against every single tapu which is very good, and deals with rain with ease. It can run CB or pinch berry so you can surprise KO or suprise recover which is awesome. Maybe with Incineroar's appearance and high usage is difficult to use it, but if you run it with Milotic or rain it is a huge threat, so idk ^^' I'd say B+. It's at its best on rain, but with Incineroar's increased usage, it's harder to consistently do well with it regardless of Ferrothorn's set, and Incineroar is easier to bring against rain teams than most Fire-types (Zard Y being the exception).
Landorus-T from S to A+: mmmm... It's kinda' difficult... Landorus was used because it was the main intimidate user, but now we have other intimidators so it's no longer a must use. I have to say that AV sets are really good, as they tank a lot and support with Knock Off, Rock Tomb and gain momentum with U-Turn and Scarf sets do the same with U-Turn while being a little bit more offensive, whereas SD sets with Groundium or Flyinium are super strong and only lose to a few Pokémon such as Celesteela, but SD + Z is one of the biggest threats in the meta imo. You can't know Lando's set from the beggining, and that is really good for it. I think it should remain S tier. Abstain. Lando-T is still just as viable as before, the issue is now that it's no longer an easy pick for an Intimidate user. It's technically better since it checks Incineroar well, but if one were to ask me if Lando-T or Incineroar is better, I'm not sure. I think Incineroar is more splashable on a team than Lando-T, but that Lando-T is more diverse in its sets. i'm of the opinion that either both should be in S rank, or neither should be.
Mega Charizard Y from A+ to A: I agree with this nom. Tapu Koko is big, Incineroar is big, Fini is big, Tyranitar is big... Charizard Y is still a huge threat, but it doesn't have the opportunities it had in the past because the meta has changed a lot. Agree to A rank but no lower. Btw Fini doesn't like Solarbeam ^_^..
I'd also raise M Gardevoir to B+. It's top cut multiple events recently, benefitting from Incineroar as a great partner for MGard.