Resource VGC 2018 Viability Rankings

I would actually like to defend Terrakion. Not the Whimsicott combo but Terrakion in general. With my recent Top 8 it came down to Nihilego or Terrakion as my last inclusion on the team because of their coverage moves and rock stab attacks. I went with Nihilego (even though it's slightly slower and hits slightly less hard) because it doesn't care about Intimidate, and Beast Boost is a great ability that can snowball. But I tested Terrakion a lot, and with a set of Stone Edge, Close Combat, Poison Jab and Protect, and with Rockium Z, it can pretty much kill most threats. Snorlax, Charizard Y, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini, Zapdos, Tyranitar, Porygon 2, Volcarona, Incineroar... and it's just bulky enough to tank a hit from most attacks except obvious super effective things like Lele's Psychic attacks in Psychic Terrain.

Not as good as other things but definitely can be competitive on the right team
 

Darkmalice

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Normal vs MBlaziken

MBlaizken perks:
  • Extra 20 base speed. This means that MBlaziken at +0 isn't forced to Protect first turn against some very common Pokemon including Lando-T and Tapu Lele.
  • Extra power without the use of Life Orb. Of note, +1 Jolly MBlaziken always OHKO 4 HP / 4 Def Lando-T with Flare Blitz, whilst against 0 HP / 0 Def Lando-T, Blaziken needs either Adamant (meaning it gets outsped) or Life Orb
  • More bulk. If Blaziken wants to have close to MBlaziken's power, it needs Life Orb which only worsens its bulk
Overall the general stat increase is also quite helpful, much like how MScizor is preferred to normal Scizor in most Smogon metagames. This is the preferred form for Sword Dance variants

Normal Blaziken perks:
  • When using LO, +Speed normal Blaziken deals more damage than MBlaziken with a +Attack nature
  • Can hold a Focus Sash
  • Does not use Mega slot
Normal Blaziken is preferred for all-out offense sets without set up, such as LO mix attacker, and Sash sets.

As far as Garchomp winning a Regionals goes..... well I beat that team at that event and I'm not that impressed tbh. Maybe I had got used to Garchomp from VGC17 and it didn't scare me. I don't think that Arcanine brought anything extra to the Garchomp party, and Incineroar would probably be a better partner overall apart from a lack of Fairy resist. I think it was probably the Lele/Megagross core that was the strength of that team, combined with good knowledge of other strategies and how to beat them.
The problem I see with Garchomp is that every set these days is tailored to survive a Tectonic Rage from Garchomp because we've been trained for over a year to design sets that way, and now it can't kill anything and everything is packing Ice Beam/Icy Wind/Ice Punch to deal with Landorus, so Garchomp suffers as a result.

I think it should be rated. Just very low.
I think that people aren't actually bothering to survive Tectonic Rage from Chomp. Rather they're trying to survive it from Lando-T, which in extension protects them against Chomp too. It links to your next point of people preparing for Lando-T and by extension prepares them for Chomp. I'm still happy for it to remain in C-. Better match-up against Sun thanks to Fire-resist, higher Speed outspeeds notable threats like Zard, Lele (yay for Poison Jab!) and Volcarona, Intimidate more easily accessible in Incineroar it's easier to fit Intimidate on Garchomp teams than before.

EDIT:
Considering that Salazzle was unranked due to Incineroar, I believe either Infernape needs to be unranked too, or both are moved to C-. Infernape was affected more by Incineroar's increased usage than Salazzle, and I honestly believe there's more reason to run Salazzale than Infernape.
  • The big reason why Incineroar affected Infernape more is that Incineroar can use Low Kick to check similar threats to those covered by Infernape's Close Combat, and Intimidate also checks some of the Pokemon with whom the Fighting-type move is used to cover. However, Salazzle's Poison-type coverage cannot be replicated by Incineroar (does not have Poison Jab), which is highly useful in a metagame dominated by the Tapus. Of note, Lele is especially important as it nullifies Fake Out, and Sash Infernape cannot guarantee a OHKO on Tapu Bulu with Fire Blast (252 SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Bulu: 168-200 (94.9 - 112.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO)
  • Salazzle has both more Speed and more SpA than Infernape, notably outspeeding MGross and Kartana. I consider this a fair trade for losing against Tyranitar since those two are Pokemon that you really want your Fire-type to check as well as possible (MGross will at worse bring Infernape down to Sash, Kartana wins 1v1 if using Sash as Sacred Sword 2HKOs or it can set up Tailwind).
  • Salazzle does not need to split its EVs across both Atk and SpA unlike Infernape, which weakens at least one of Infernape's STABs
  • Heatran, who walls Salazzle, is less common that what it used to be, definitely less common than Tapu Fini who walls Infernape
 
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I'd like to nominate Mega Mence from A to A-. First of all, the most common core around is a mix up between Metagross Lele and Tyranitar/Zapdos/Incineroar/Lando, which severely hampers Mence's viability as, bar Lele outside of tailwind, it either gets cycle intimidated or straight-up walled and beaten down by every one of these mons. The fact that Earth Power Ice Beam Gastro is raising up in usage doesn't help either, as it threatens the standard set outside trick room and, in some cases, even outside it.
Hyper Voice is not as great as it used to be either since the (admittedly, very small) Aerilate nerf; coupled with the fact that almost every 'mon in A resistes it makes it so Salamence has to go for Double-Edge for damage, thusly forcing it to take sometimes significant recoil. The fact that the spider room core is more common now is a mixed bag for it, as it gets severly threatened by p2 while being a menace to Araquanid.
Its match-up against control is pretty lackluster, both against Gengar + double intimidate and ControLax. Celesteela is a bitch too.
I guess it's a decent stronghold against Zard Y though, so there's that.
Thanks for reading. :]
I disagree with this. Mence is still the second best mega in the format and should stay in A rank.

While Metagross can KO it with Ice Punch it has to correctly call the switch in. Metagross is outsped by Mence and takes >50% from flamethrower, so while it can't KO back it can put enough pressure on a weakened metagross that its not a hard counter. Also Mence is a good switch in because of intimidate. It's also worth noting that Hyper Voice + Fire Blast has a chance to KO metagross, so it's not an entirely safe switch in. Lele is outsped and KO'd by double edge for physical variants.

Furthermore, Metagross was always as present in the meta when Mence was in A, it's not like metagross is a new thing. The difference is not there's an intimidate user that can KO metagross and switch in on those ice punches directed to Mence.

Most physical Mence run either Earthquake or Brick break, both of which put significant damage onto Tyranitar and Incineroar. Also incineroar can't actually hurt Mence, so the uptick in that and corresponding fewer Lando actually helps mence. Mence can set up in Incineroar's face if it's a DD variant and can completely ignore incineroar if it's a special variant.

I don't know if gastrodon usage is changing enough for it to be a relevant consideration. Spider room isn't an issue because it KO's spider and is a safe switch in to it, and porygon2 has gotten worse because of incineroar and knock off being more common. Control Lax was a problem before and hasn't changed much. It also hasn't increased in popularity from what I've seen.

On the other hand, physical Mence shuts down the Kommo-o teams that are more common since it KO's Kommo-o and if you can get a DD up you outspeed it anyways. Given that they're usually paired with Bulu and Gengar, it's not a huge issue. The Blaziken cores that are more common now are also easy for Mence to deal with since physical blaziken can't really hit Mence. Also the CharX-Bulu teams that are more common aren't hard to beat either since Charizard relies on thunderpunch to hurt Mence and Bulu loses to it as well.

Gardevoir teams are more common and are a mixed bag - if you can keep speed control you will win because Gardevoir and Mence both KO each other.

My point being - Mence hasn't changed much since pre-incineroar, and is still the second best Mega. It has cut every single regional since Incineroar got released. Unlike Charizard-Y, it hasn't gotten worse since the meta changed. I don't think there's a reason to move it from A.
 
Rhyperior,
Salazzle,
Sandslash-A,
Mamoswine,
Bisharp,
Garchomp,
Sylveon,
Drampa,
Vanilluxe,
Mega Abomasnow,
Abomasnow all unranked
Bisharp has Defiant, SuckerPunch and more speed than Inceneroar. Why UnRanking it?

If new Intimidators are being a thing, so it would raise the usage of counters to it. (Defiant, Unaware, Competitive, ClearBody, ...)
 
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Adamant Zoroark

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Bisharp has Defiant, SuckerPunch and more speed than Inceneroar. Why UnRanking it?

If new Intimidators are being a thing, so it would raise the usage of counters to it. (Defiant, Unaware, Competitive, ClearBody, ...)
The problem with Bisharp is that it's not even particularly good at its job of countering Intimidate. Sucker Punch can't even OHKO 0/0 Landorus-T, not even with Adamant and a Life Orb (+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 136-161 (82.9 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Meanwhile, if Bisharp wants to have a matchup against Incineroar, it needs Low Kick, which requires dropping a generally more useful move (Knock Off or Iron Head).

If you really want to turn Intimidate into a liability, use Milotic. It matches up well against both Landorus-T and Incineroar while not having to make any alterations to its standard set of Scald / Icy Wind / Recover / Protect. There's also Salamence before it Mega Evolves (which Bisharp isn't KOing any time soon). Hell, one could make a stronger case for Braviary than Bisharp, because at least its Landorus-T matchup isn't rubbish and it doesn't need to make any alterations to its standard set for Incineroar. The one Intimidate user that Bisharp has an advantage against is Mega Manectric, and even then, Manectric can't OHKO Milotic (Electric Terrain won't even guarantee a Thunderbolt OHKO) so it's not like Manectric will feel completely safe against Milo.
 
Plus I think Bisharp dies to Incineroar's Low Kick / Flare Blitz, and probably to Lando's ground attacks depending on the set.
 

Darkmalice

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The problem with Bisharp is that it's not even particularly good at its job of countering Intimidate. Sucker Punch can't even OHKO 0/0 Landorus-T, not even with Adamant and a Life Orb (+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 136-161 (82.9 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Meanwhile, if Bisharp wants to have a matchup against Incineroar, it needs Low Kick, which requires dropping a generally more useful move (Knock Off or Iron Head).
I thank you for this post. It surprisingly made it clear to me why Bisharp is commonly paired with MBlaziken.

When paired together, Bisharp's role is not to beat Lando-T / Incineroar alone, but to deter Intimidate that would weaken MBlaziken (by benefiting from it), and to beat Lando-T / Incineroar when paired with MBlaziken. We all know Bisharp doesn't OHKO Lando-T, but its Sucker Punch and MBlaz after a Speed boost will together KO Lando-T before it attacks even if Scarfed. All of this is possible even if MBlaziken cannot set up Swords Dance. The fact that Lando-T and Incineroar commonly do not run Protect makes it even easier for MBlazk and Bisharp to check them.

Regarding Incineroar, MBlaziken and Bisharp can 2HKO Incineroar before it moves (after double Protecting against Fake Out), and that's even with Bisharp not running Low Kick (calcs included at end).
+1 252 Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 66-78 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Blaziken Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 140-168 (69.3 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Note these calcs assume Jolly nature for both Bisharp and Blaziken; obviously Adamant does more.
HOWEVER this fails if Incineroar carries a 50% berry. If it did, Bisharp would need to use Knock Off before MBlaz attacks. This obviously exposes Bisharp to Flare Blitz, though that is one reason why it commonly carries a Sash. Also MBlaz does well against Incineroar to begin with. So it's still not a bad scenario for MBlaz + Bisharp. But more importantly it deters Intimidate and checks Lando-T, which is a bigger threat to MBlaz than Incineroar. Milotic cannot achieve, as it doesn't outspeed Lando-T who then swiftly OHKOs MBlaz with EQ.

In most other scenarios though, Milotic is the more reliable anti-Intimidate answer.
 
Couldn't you pair Milotic with MBlaziken and Icy Wind the Lando while Protecting with MBlaziken. Then next turn you can avoid being outsped and OHKO'd with Earthquake?

Though in this very, very specific scenario, you'd probably pair MBlaziken up with a Wide Guard user. Possibly Hitmontop who has added Fake Out and Intimidate support, and can KO Incineroar with All Out Pummelling.
 

Darkmalice

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Couldn't you pair Milotic with MBlaziken and Icy Wind the Lando while Protecting with MBlaziken. Then next turn you can avoid being outsped and OHKO'd with Earthquake?

Though in this very, very specific scenario, you'd probably pair MBlaziken up with a Wide Guard user. Possibly Hitmontop who has added Fake Out and Intimidate support, and can KO Incineroar with All Out Pummelling.
True. With some SpA EVs, Scald can get the OHKO at +2 even against Assualt Vest variants.

Bisharp still has its perks. Two key ones for MBlaziken is its greater offensive presence if you don't get the Defiant/Competitive boost, which helps for setting up Swords Dance (also aided by Sucker Punch mind games which encourage your opponent to switch), and the second being that Bisharp is better at checking Trick Room users and abusers, something which Milotic is generally poor at doing. The same issues apply for Hitmontop, sans Fake Out for TR and CC for Pory2 and Lax. Wide Guard also doesn't help against Z-move Lando-T, and is telegraphed by the mere presence of Hitmontop on the battlefield. Would rather using Helping Hand than give a Z Crystal to Hitmontop, since -1 Helping Hand Superpower will OHKO Incineroar after Intimidate, and All Out Pummelling generally would be an inefficient use of the Z move alongside MBlaziken, particularly compared to common users of the Z move like for example Tapu Koko who can use it to deal with Tapu Fini. Of note, Bisharp also can more reliably dent Fini than Hitmontop and Milotic (barring Muddy Water and Moonblast induced stat drops to proc Defiant).
 

Adamant Zoroark

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Put Incineroar in S RANK!!! It's infinitely the best Pokémon in VGC 2018, or put both that and Landorus in S rank
Very productive, well-supported post /s

I can see a few arguments in favor of putting Incineroar in S Rank; the combination of Intimidate, Fake Out, and potentially even U-turn or Snarl gives it a lot of utility and makes it an overall very splashable Pokemon. Plus, there do seem to be fewer contraindications to using it (Bulu teams at least had an excuse not to use Landorus, but Incineroar actually benefits from Bulu). The problem with that is that Incineroar still has a lot of vulnerabilities, especially to Water-type Pokemon (esp. Tapu Fini), Tyranitar, etc. as well as Flare Blitz putting a dent in its longevity.

That said, Incineroar is a very splashable Pokemon, but its rank really depends on how we want to be defining S-Rank (keep in mind that the S-Rank standard is seen as very high to VGC players because we went a whole generation where “S-Rank” meant “Broken as hell”)
 
Very productive, well-supported post /s

I can see a few arguments in favor of putting Incineroar in S Rank; the combination of Intimidate, Fake Out, and potentially even U-turn or Snarl gives it a lot of utility and makes it an overall very splashable Pokemon. Plus, there do seem to be fewer contraindications to using it (Bulu teams at least had an excuse not to use Landorus, but Incineroar actually benefits from Bulu). The problem with that is that Incineroar still has a lot of vulnerabilities, especially to Water-type Pokemon (esp. Tapu Fini), Tyranitar, etc. as well as Flare Blitz putting a dent in its longevity.

That said, Incineroar is a very splashable Pokemon, but its rank really depends on how we want to be defining S-Rank (keep in mind that the S-Rank standard is seen as very high to VGC players because we went a whole generation where “S-Rank” meant “Broken as hell”)
I'd recommend implementing sub S ranks, like S-
 
I just got the Entei event and I'm deciding what set to test on it, but can't find much information on VGC Entei strategies that's not from 2015...
If you were to attempt a viable Entei set, what would you go for? It can't access Extreme Speed.... so I was thinking either Jolly with a Z crystal or pinch berry with Protect and 3 attacks...... or Careful with an Assault Vest, Snarl and coverage moves.
 

Darkmalice

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I'm a fan for no S rank currently. Metagame reminds me of last year's format where though there are many great Pokemon, none really stand out as being at least a rank above every other Pokemon. I think Tapu Koko is currently comparable Incineroar and Lando-T in terms of their impact on the metagame, but I don't feel its S rank either.

I just got the Entei event and I'm deciding what set to test on it, but can't find much information on VGC Entei strategies that's not from 2015...
If you were to attempt a viable Entei set, what would you go for? It can't access Extreme Speed.... so I was thinking either Jolly with a Z crystal or pinch berry with Protect and 3 attacks...... or Careful with an Assault Vest, Snarl and coverage moves.
IMO the best set from VGC15 was Sacred Fire / Substitute / Snarl / Protect. The idea behind it is to weaken both physical attacks and special attackers, with Sub aiding at the role (trying to break the Sub exposes you to Snarl or a SF burn). Entei's key aspect is SF; I'd put it to use. Entei gradually saw less use as the metagame progressed, as more players opted for Heatran for the Fire-type role. 47.5% chance of burn isn't reliable.

It's definitely been nerfed since 6th Gen, With burn's damage reduction, special attackers no longer fear the burn, and Fini preventing burn altogether. It's questionable if Entei's superior stats and SF is worth using it over Arcanine, who offers Intimidate and a similar movepool. He can also do the role of weakening both physical and special attackers (Intimidate, WoW, Snarl). And that's Arcanine who has seen minimal usage the entire format, and limited success sans for your tournament!

I currently wouldn't rank Entei. I could only imagine myself using it after creating a team with Incineroar, Heatran or another better Fire-type, and if I really felt that Entei offered something that none of the other common Fire-types could do. Much like Isaac Lam's justification for Tsaranee on his Oceania IC team. But between the common Fire-types, and the more niche ones like Arcanine (similar Speed and more reliable at weakening physical attackers with Intimidate + WoW) and Salazzle (if I really want the Speed), I don't currently see a use for Entei.
 
I just got the Entei event and I'm deciding what set to test on it, but can't find much information on VGC Entei strategies that's not from 2015...
If you were to attempt a viable Entei set, what would you go for? It can't access Extreme Speed.... so I was thinking either Jolly with a Z crystal or pinch berry with Protect and 3 attacks...... or Careful with an Assault Vest, Snarl and coverage moves.
Probably better off in a different thread. I saw some Entei usage pre-Incineroar when there weren't any viable physical fire mons (except incineroar, which was mediocre). It's biggest niche is stomping tantrum and stone edge, which other fire types don't get. It's a safe switch in to Zard Y that threatens it back, but Zard Y is lower in usage now.

Most Entei (60%) seem to be running bulky berry sets. That being said, I really don't see a reason to use it over Incineroar. If you want the burn that badly will-o-wisp is a usable move, but enough people run Fini.
 
I propose that we add Mega Sceptile to B-. Paired with Tapu Koko, its Mega ability is Lightning Rod, absorbing Discharges from it, which allows it to deal loads of damage with moves like Energy Ball and Dragon Pulse!
 
I propose that we add Mega Sceptile to B-. Paired with Tapu Koko, its Mega ability is Lightning Rod, absorbing Discharges from it, which allows it to deal loads of damage with moves like Energy Ball and Dragon Pulse!
We’re going to need more evidence than a good pairing with tapu Koko to justify it on B rank. Has it placed in any events?
 
I haven't encountered any Tapu Koko running Discharge either, probably because Koko is frail and needs to hit as hard as possible to score KO's before it gets KO'd in return. Seems like a risky and subpar usage of your team's Mega evolution. And people will realise what's going on straight away and use Wide Guard if they have it. Sure the combo is cute and creative, but B- rank!? I mean for starters Energy Ball and Dragon Pulse is poor coverage and weak base power, so you're going to need a couple of Rod boosts before being a threat. If Mega Metagross, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Gengar, Zapdos, Tapu Lele, etc doesn't kill you first.
 

Adamant Zoroark

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I propose that we add Mega Sceptile to B-. Paired with Tapu Koko, its Mega ability is Lightning Rod, absorbing Discharges from it, which allows it to deal loads of damage with moves like Energy Ball and Dragon Pulse!
I used this in VGC 2015, can confirm it’s bad; if anything, things have only gotten WORSE for it (e.g. Prankster Thunder Wave practically vanishing into nonexistence). The one neat trick M-Sceptile has is Quick Guard, which iirc outprioritizes every Fake Out user (excluding Terrain boosts), but that’s an extremely niche thing to waste your Mega on, notwithstanding the fact that the existence of Tapu Lele has made Quick Guard less useful. Hell, if we’re talking about blocking priority without using Lele, I’d sooner use Tsareena, because at least it doesn’t eat your Mega slot.

Keep M-Sceptile unranked
 
Togedemaru B- ==> B/B+ This thing is a well made check to the Tapus, while also being very interesting paired up with Zapdos and/or Koko thanks to lightning rod and can with tailwind up it can threaten a kill Lando T with Hp ice.
 
Whimsicott -> B - B+
Whimsicott is great support and is almost guarantees a Tailwind up. Fake Tears allows M-Gengar and M-Charizard-Y to destroy. Encore may render a Pokemon useless and force them out. With Prankster it is a monster and is not easily shut down.
 

Darkmalice

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I propose that we add Mega Sceptile to B-. Paired with Tapu Koko, its Mega ability is Lightning Rod, absorbing Discharges from it, which allows it to deal loads of damage with moves like Energy Ball and Dragon Pulse!
Togedemaru B- ==> B/B+ This thing is a well made check to the Tapus, while also being very interesting paired up with Zapdos and/or Koko thanks to lightning rod and can with tailwind up it can threaten a kill Lando T with Hp ice.
Whimsicott -> B - B+
Whimsicott is great support and is almost guarantees a Tailwind up. Fake Tears allows M-Gengar and M-Charizard-Y to destroy. Encore may render a Pokemon useless and force them out. With Prankster it is a monster and is not easily shut down.
These points were already taken into account when giving MSceptile, Togedemaru* and Whimsicott their current rankings (including MSceptile not being deserving of a rank). You'll need to display evidence as to what has changed about these Pokemon since they were last ranked in order to justify a change in their rank. MSceptile still sucks, I don't think Tog has changed much (Koko is more common, but Zapdos is less common), and Whimsicott is worse than before because Incineroar is much more common.

*Except for Togedemaru OHKOing Lando-T with HP Ice. Have you even seen that? You literally need Specs to have a shot at OHKOing with Togedemaru's pathetic SpA, and if you're using Specs Tog, you're using Tog very badly!
 

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