Resource VGC 2018 Viability Rankings

The only one of those changes I strongly disagree with is Xurkitree. It's proven to be fairly good in the last few weeks. Beyond thriving on the M-Aero team it also seems to have found a niche on Kommo-o teams. It's got a fair amount of CP post-incineroar as well. I don't think it's unviable enough to drop to unranked.
 

Netherious

formerly Shivershaft
is a Pre-Contributor
The only one of those changes I strongly disagree with is Xurkitree. It's proven to be fairly good in the last few weeks. Beyond thriving on the M-Aero team it also seems to have found a niche on Kommo-o teams. It's got a fair amount of CP post-incineroar as well. I don't think it's unviable enough to drop to unranked.
I'll do some research on this. If there's anyone else here who can vouch for it I'd like to hear! EDIT: Yeah I'm actually impressed it has that much CP. I'll likely revoke this. I'll also likely be making Scizor Mega Scizor just based on CP success.
 
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Eisenherz

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I'll do some research on this. If there's anyone else here who can vouch for it I'd like to hear! EDIT: Yeah I'm actually impressed it has that much CP. I'll likely revoke this. I'll also likely be making Scizor, Mega Scizor just based on CP success.
I'll vouch for it, Xurk got top 8 at the LatAm Internats, which is no small tournament, on Nico Davide Cognetta's team. It still has the same kind of niche it had in 17, if you can get off just 1 Tail Glow, it can snowball quickly out of hand. I've seen it on a couple of other teams that did well at events, though I can't remember them off the top of my head. It was paired with Clefairy (and perhaps Gengar-Kommo-o) every time.
A very niche Pokémon that requires support, but viable nonetheless, I think C- was fine!

Also, I hadn't noticed the addition of Scizor wasn't its Mega forme. In my memory, all of its recent success was as a Mega, so I also think it should be switched.
 

Netherious

formerly Shivershaft
is a Pre-Contributor
I'll vouch for it, Xurk got top 8 at the LatAm Internats, which is no small tournament, on Nico Davide Cognetta's team. It still has the same kind of niche it had in 17, if you can get off just 1 Tail Glow, it can snowball quickly out of hand. I've seen it on a couple of other teams that did well at events, though I can't remember them off the top of my head. It was paired with Clefairy (and perhaps Gengar-Kommo-o) every time.
A very niche Pokémon that requires support, but viable nonetheless, I think C- was fine!

Also, I hadn't noticed the addition of Scizor wasn't its Mega forme. In my memory, all of its recent success was as a Mega, so I also think it should be switched.
Yeah I fixed Scizor to Mega form, Xurk will be sticking around! I'm trying to balance my sources for the moves i've been making but some of the smaller things have slipped through so I apologize for that!
 

Darkmalice

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My thoughts:



Drifblim C+ --> C-. I agree; there are more reliable Tailwind settlers even on teams with Tapu Lele/Fini like Zapdos. It's at it best with Lele, but it fairs poorly in the Incineroar metagame where Incineroar straight out counters Lele + Drilfbim. But being immune to Fake Out is nice.



Persian-A C+ --> C-. I agree. Viable but difficult to fit well on a team



Magnezone C --> Unranked. Agree. Haven't seen any successful use of it



Marowak-A C --> Unranked. Agree. Haven't seen any successful use of it in the Incineroar metagame



Primarina C --> Unranked. I would move to C-. This has top cut more than once on teams with Mega Charizard X, in a similar vein to keeping Arcanine ranked. I think once it also top cut on a team with Kommo-O. Its reason over Tapu Fini is not setting up Misty Terrain.




Aerodactyl C- --> Unranked. Agree. I would think this is viable but haven't seen any successful irl use of it, though a few people using it successfully on the lower end of the Showdown ladder



Xurkitree C- --> Unranked. Xuriktree has top cut multiple times on a team consisting of MGeng / Kommo-O / Bulu / Incineroar / Clefairy / Xurkitree. This is relevant. If anything I feel this should move up to C.




Gastrodon B --> B+. Disagree. I don't think it's seen the same level of success as the other B+ rank Pokemon, and it doesn't fair that well against Tapu Fini, the most common Water-type. It does fair well against Milotic and Araquanid, but Araquanid teams always carry a Grass-type.




Excadrill B --> C+. Unsure of B-/C+, but do agree with a drop.



MScizor just got top 3 in Russia. I've seen more success from MScizor than normal Scizor. I feel that MScizor is C+ and normal Scizor is C.

Whilst we're at it, Hawlucha should be moved down to C- with Drifblim. It is usually inferior Drifblim in terms of setting up Tailwind thanks to being frail and supporting no Fake Out immunity. Whilst it isn't weak type-wise to Incineroar, that is somewhat negatted by being vulnerable to Fake Out even under Psychic Terrain, and to a lesser extent being Intimidate vulnerable.

Lastly, I'd like to fill up A a little more. A- has gotten rather large... although the metagame does feel like it's at a point where theres only a few amazing mons with a lot that can contend. Any opinions on A- and what could go lower/higher
These are the Pokemon in A- I feel could be considered to move up, but would prefer discussion on them first:
  • Mega Charizard Y
  • Kommo-O
  • Snorlax
Yeah I know Mega Charizard Y just got dropped. It is the Mega of choice for hyper-offense teams due its absurd damage output. It doesn't do much through Incineroar, but Incineroar isn't threatening it in return, because of resisting Flare Blitz and not having a removable item - hence it doesn't discouarge MZard from targetting Incineroar's partner or just spamming Heat Wave. It's questionably better in this metagame as Lando-T isn't as common.

Kommo-teams have been very successful for months, with very high levels of top-cuts. There is some degree of team variety in the teams, but MGengar, Tapu Bulu and more recently Incineroar are very consistent teammates (who are all at least A rank). It's level of success is higher than the other A- rank Pokemon, but it requires much more support.

Snorlax is the most successful TR sweeper on semi-TR teams, and one of the best TR-deterrant Pokemon. It sees use on a wide variety of teams - MManetric teams (where it's the key set-up threat), semi-room teams, other teams as a TR check (for example MGross/Incineroar/Fini/Lando-T/Zapdos/Snorlax taking Amoonguss' spot). And it's been like this even with Incineroar threatening Knock Off and Low Kick.


I'd also drop Azumarill to B-. It's always been useable and has been used well, but has an extreme lack of top cuts throughout the VGC season, less than all the Pokemon in rank B and higher.


[EDIT] I would also consider Kartana for A after discussion. Has earned top cut on multiple occasions. Offensive Grass-type that requires less support than Tapu Bulu, the most successful hyper-offense Tailwind user, strong typing, can be tailored to fit a variety of offensive teams. Its success seems to have actually increased post-Incineroar - not sure why, possibly in part as it has Sacred Sword which can potentially deal >50% damage even when Intimidated.

For thinning out the C ranks, I would also consider moving Bronzong (C+) and Porygon Z (C-) to unranked. Bronzong was ranked initially for Z-Trick Room and then abusing the +2 Accracy Hypnosis, Porygon-Z for obvious Z-conversion. But I haven't seen either in the Incineroar metagame. Bronzong's worse with Incineroar around, its tactic is somewhat unreliable, full TR teams typically more offensive (Reinculus, Stakataka) or reliable TR users (Mimikyu), and semi-TR users prefer more reliable TR users (Cress, Pory2, Mimikyu). Porygon-Z Conversion has been abandoned in favour of other sweepers, most notably Kommo-O who gets the +1 boosts everywhere whilst also dealing major damage on the same turn.

On that note I support Reuinculus to C rank. It's commonly seen on full TR teams as an offensive settler and has top cut more than once. Also has bulk, Overcoat, and Psychium Z (to avoid Taunt and Knock Off's increased damage) to set up fairly reliablly.
Reuniclus @ Psychium Z
Ability: Overcoat
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 140 SpA / 116 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
– Psychic
– Focus Blast / Shadow Ball
– Trick Room
– Protect
 
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I really disagree with unranking Xurkitree simply because it doesn't need very much support to get set up, and once under tailwind or behind a substitute or what have you, it can sweep relatively easily. Beyond just my opinions, it has seen a decent amount of success recently in some Japanese tournaments I believe it was. Also Overloud is a fool and I'll fight him and his duck lol

If anything, I feel like it should move up to C or even C+ due to its recent success
 
I really disagree with unranking Xurkitree simply because it doesn't need very much support to get set up, and once under tailwind or behind a substitute or what have you, it can sweep relatively easily. Beyond just my opinions, it has seen a decent amount of success recently in some Japanese tournaments I believe it was. Also Overloud is a fool and I'll fight him and his duck lol

If anything, I feel like it should move up to C or even C+ due to its recent success
Duck will Top Cut and then you'll all laugh, one of these days. But maybe y'all are right, and xurk should move on up, I was probably wrong.
 
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I think A-rank is pretty solid at this point. I don't have any changes to make there.

For B I have a few changes to suggest:

M-Mawile to B-. It hasn't had much success recently. It's niche was providing a second intimidate and being the main attacker on rain-room or gothitelle teams. As Goth became less viable as did Mawile. Similarly, Scizor has overtaken it as the mega of choice in Rain teams.

M-Kangaskhan to B+. It's still a decent Pokemon. There are a number of Megas ahead of it now in B- but I'd put it in the same caliber as Char X. It's still very consistent and while it hasn't cut much it's still used a decent amount and is the second most splashable mega.

Stakataka to B-. I haven't seen it being used well recently. I explained this in an earlier post.

Suicune to B-. Another case of "what have you done for me recently". I don't think it's viability has changed much but it feels like it doesn't have the usage of other pokemon in B tier. The biggest change is probably that it competes with Milotic for a team spot, since they both are water types that provide speed control.

Braviary to B. We've also seen it rise in usage, and it's had some solid finishes recently. It has a niche over Bisharp and Milotic in setting up TW, and over Bisharp specifically in being able to take hits from either main intimidator.

Clefairy to B. It's also seen a lot of success on Kommo-o or Xurkitree teams. It had success on Salamence and Excadrill teams early in the format. It's been very consistently good and friend guard, redirection, and helping hand is a great niche.

Scrafty to C+. I still don't know why you'd use this over Incineroar AND hitmontop. It should be in C rank, somewhere.
 

Netherious

formerly Shivershaft
is a Pre-Contributor
I think A-rank is pretty solid at this point. I don't have any changes to make there.

For B I have a few changes to suggest:

M-Mawile to B. It hasn't had much success recently. It's niche was providing a second intimidate and being the main attacker on rain-room or gothitelle teams. As Goth became less viable as did Mawile. Similarly, Scizor has overtaken it as the mega of choice in Rain teams.

It still has some success, I haven't seen a big enough drop to drop it below B or even out of B+. It still has more usage than Scizor on both front and still had more top cut appearances in the last 2 weeks than Scizor. Mega Scizor does have slightly more CP than Mawile so I think having the both of them shared in B tier would be fair.

M-Kangaskhan to B+. It's still a decent Pokemon. There are a number of Megas ahead of it now in B- but I'd put it in the same caliber as Char X. It's still very consistent and while it hasn't cut much it's still used a decent amount and is the second most splashable mega.

I can agree with this and change will likely be implemented.

Stakataka to B-. I haven't seen it being used well recently. I explained this in an earlier post.

I agree.

Suicune to B-. Another case of "what have you done for me recently". I don't think it's viability has changed much but it feels like it doesn't have the usage of other pokemon in B tier. The biggest change is probably that it competes with Milotic for a team spot, since they both are water types that provide speed control.

I agree. I'd even go as far to say C+ but I'll let that happen over time.

Braviary to B. We've also seen it rise in usage, and it's had some solid finishes recently. It has a niche over Bisharp and Milotic in setting up TW, and over Bisharp specifically in being able to take hits from either main intimidator.

Recent success backs this up, so with the other Pokemon leaving mid-B I think it'll fit in as a B.

Clefairy to B. It's also seen a lot of success on Kommo-o or Xurkitree teams. It had success on Salamence and Excadrill teams early in the format. It's been very consistently good and friend guard, redirection, and helping hand is a great niche.

I agree.

Scrafty to C+. I still don't know why you'd use this over Incineroar AND hitmontop. It should be in C rank, somewhere.

C+ it is.
Responses above in red.

The following changes will be made immediately:


Azumarill B+ --> B-


Mega Mawile B+ --> B


Excadrill B --> B-


Mega Kangaskhan B --> B+


Stakataka B --> B-


Suicune B --> B-


Braviary B- --> B


Clefairy B- --> B


Scrafty B- --> C+


Bronzong C+ --> Unranked


Drifblim C+ --> C-


Hawlucha C --> C-


Persian-A C+ --> C-


Magnezone C --> Unranked


Marowak-A C --> Unranked


Primarina C --> C-


Mega Scizor C --> B

This is a large jump, but it's CP and usage spike is forcing the issue.


Aerodactyl C- --> Unranked


Porygon-Z C- --> Unranked


Xurkitree C- --> C+

For a lot of these moves the writing is on the wall AND in my responses within the quote.
Primarina still has enough of a niche to merit staying on Viability. Xurkitree usage is rising so much I have to bring it back up. It has been impressive the last week or so how well it's doing.

As for the next moves, let's talk about these ones!

Incineroar A+ --> S some more input here before I make the move would be awesome.

Kartana A- --> A

Kommo-O A- --> A

Reuniclus Unranked --> ???

Mega Salamence A --> B+

Snorlax A- --> A

Tyranitar / Mega A- --> B+

Bisharp B --> B+

Braviary B --> B+ (Braviary just moved but should it go higher?)


[EDIT] Here's some other changes that can be discussed but aren't as important as the above moves:


Weavile C- --> Unranked

Pheromosa C- --> Unranked

Thundurus C+ --> C

Staraptor C+ --> C

Smeargle C+ --> C

Rotom-W B- --> C-/Unranked

Ferrothorn B --> B+

Thanks!
 
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Darkmalice

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Ok with the recent changes except for one: Mega Kang.

Mega Kang's usage has been slowly decreasing throughoout the metagame, with a severe lack of top cuts. It's had less reason for use in the Incineroar metagame: Incineroar is a more splashable Fake Out user who also provides Low Kick coverage, and Intimidate is everywhere. It may be a more splashable Mega than most, but it provides less to almost every team than the other Megas given that Incineroar can provide Fake Out, and every other Mega has resistances, and more specialisation to suit teams. This was a Pokemon that I could actually see dropping from B to B- instead of moving up.

In terms of proposed changes, I disagree with:
  • MMence moving down to B+. Usage has dipped but it's still quite an effective Pokemon, and it has top cut a few times recently. I would say A- is ok. If you want to move A- Pokemon down, move the Ttars down.
  • Ferrothorn moving up. Based on usage, and fact that Incineroar can be brought fairly easily against rain teams. I haven't seen it become successfully more recently.
  • Staraptor moving. It's a staple on full TR teams, and is useful otherwise
  • Pheromosa being unranked. Still has niches, and was recently used very successfully by Gary Quan alongside Snorlax (he used Speed Swap)
  • Rotom-W could move down but should remain ranked. Rotom-H should move to at least as high as it, if not lower. Rotom-W is harder to justify but still has uses, and fairs well against many top Pokemon (particularly Lando-T counter than most). I would say C for both.
 
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Netherious

formerly Shivershaft
is a Pre-Contributor
Ok with the recent changes except for one: Mega Kang.

Mega Kang's usage has been slowly decreasing throughoout the metagame, with a severe lack of top cuts. It's had less reason for use in the Incineroar metagame: Incineroar is a more splashable Fake Out user who also provides Low Kick coverage, and Intimidate is everywhere. It may be a more splashable Mega than most, but it provides less to almost every team than the other Megas given that Incineroar can provide Fake Out, and every other Mega has resistances, and more specialisation to suit teams. This was a Pokemon that I could actually see dropping from B to B- instead of moving up.

In terms of proposed changes.
  • MMence moving down to B+. Usage has dipped but it's still quite an effective Pokemon, and it has top cut a few times recently. I would say A- is ok. If you want to move A- Pokemon down, move the Ttars down.
  • Ferrothorn moving up. Based on usage, and fact that Incineroar can be brought fairly easily against rain teams. I haven't seen it become successfully more recently.
  • Staraptor moving. It's a staple on full TR teams, and is useful otherwise
  • Pheromosa being unranked. Still has niches, and was recently used very successfully by Gary Quan alongside Snorlax (he used Speed Swap)
  • Rotom-W could move down but should remain ranked. Rotom-H should move to at least as high as it, if not lower. Rotom-W is harder to justify but still has uses, and fairs well against many top Pokemon (particularly Lando-T counter than most). I would say C for both.
Moving Kang bothers me as well but the CP spoke of its recent success, post Incineroar. Personally a metagame where Kang is good means Mawile will be too so swapping the two for each others slots feels odd to me. I'm gonna give it a longer look to determine a resting place for it but I have a feeling Kang and Mawile specifically will fluctuate as we approach the final months leading up to Worlds.

I agree with everything else. Rotom hasn't seen much success beyond some specific players who've used it a couple times.
 

Yuichi

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is a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
Several points i'd like to suggest for discussion:

  1. Cresselia: A --> A-/B+ (reason being dip in usage in post incineroar meta, especially with rise of m gar and kommo o cores, cress isnt as effective as it was pre incineroar and is a sitting duck in certain matchups)
  2. Porygon 2: A --> A- (most commonly seen on mane balance and zard y teams, this mon sees a slight dip in usage partially due to the rise of the common kommo o+gengar core, with incineroar also being a factor taken into consideration, this mon is also walled by incineroar, rendering it ineffective in some matchups and a sitting duck in others)
  3. Aegislash: A- --> B+(?) (was useful w ghostium when cress was everywhere, cress dropping in usage and rise of incineroar means that its role is no longer needed as much in the current metagame)
  4. Amoonguss: A- --> B+ (previously one of the best redirectors in the format, being able to redirect and support its allys, now just is not as effective as before due to incineroar being on almost every team)
  5. Snorlax: A- --> A (it sees success of mimilax teams recently, even in post incineroar meta, and is still able to function very well on balance teams as a setup sweeper, in or outside of trick room)
  6. Ludicolo/Pelipper/Politoed: B+ --> B (these three are usually used specifically on rain teams only, especially ludicolo and pelipper ; albeit its recent success in tournaments, ludicolo struggles to make itself effective outside of rain
  7. Mimikyu: B --> B+ (recent success in tournaments prove its effectiveness in post incineroar meta, functions really well in a meta where m gar and m garde are common, can support various Z move options allowing it to fit into teams)
  8. Whimsicott: B --> B-/C+ (kinda like a sitting duck, outclassed by clefairy most of the time, also dies to incineroar)
  9. Raichu: B- --> B+ (current meta puts it in a very favourable position as a fast fake out user, with encore support and volt switch, coupled with lightningrod to further support its common teammates such as zard y, fini and braviary, also has decent amounts of success in recent tours)
  10. Gyarados-M: B- --> C+ (almost never seen in the current meta, also outclassed by other dark types and water types, role is usually not needed in the current metagame, not as effective as before due to lack of offensive presence)
  11. Hitmontop: B- --> C (outclassed primarily by incineroar, lando and other intimidators, only niche is it being able to provide wide guard as well and fighting coverage)
  12. Latias-M: B- --> C (rise of kommo o means more fairies, also with the rise of incineroar, this mon just isnt able to perform well in the current metagame)
[Edit]: ignore if any of the suggested changes ive mentioned above ahs already been implemented, im bad at reading
 
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I don’t agree with Cresselia dropping because it’s struggling with the Mega Gengar Kommo-O core. Z-Psychic KO’s both of those Pokemon if need be, and is great for when they are predicting you’ll go for Trick Room. It can Z-Trick Room through any Taunt or Encore shenanigans from Gengar and Whimsicott, ruining their whole strategy once Trick Room is up. The only way to stop it first turn is Fake Out from their lead Incineroar if they are smart and lead with that. But then you be smart and lead with a faster Fake Out user or use redirection. Speaking of which, Cresselia has Ally Switch which is criminally underrated.

It’s probably dropped a bit because it can’t really do much to Incineroar by itself. It just needs the right teammates though.
 

Darkmalice

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Several points i'd like to suggest for discussion:

Btw not sure if you realise, but Kommo-O + MGengar was rising in usage and success before Intimidate Incineroar was realised, including a top cut in Oceania Internats.
  1. Cresselia: A --> A-/B+ (reason being dip in usage in post incineroar meta, especially with rise of m gar and kommo o cores, cress isnt as effective as it was pre incineroar and is a sitting duck in certain matchups). Indifferent for A/A- since i think Porygon2 is more successful, but it's still very good at what it does. Psychium Z means that Incineroar fails to 2HKO Cress
  2. Porygon 2: A --> A- (most commonly seen on mane balance and zard y teams, this mon sees a slight dip in usage partially due to the rise of the common kommo o+gengar core, with incineroar also being a factor taken into consideration, this mon is also walled by incineroar, rendering it ineffective in some matchups and a sitting duck in others). This Pokemon was actually increasing in success after the rise of Kommo-o/Gengar, and increasing after Incineroar gained Intimidate. Also commonly seen on Araquanid teams (generally balance/semi-offence teams). It's been putting in the work to remain A and is questionably the most successful current TR user. One of the big reasons for its success is that the TR users it is paired with can often beat Incineroar like Araquanid and Snorlax (with support so that it can set up Belly Drum safely and set up TR). Remember that Incineroar can't hit it super-effectively and Porygon2 teams are well equipped to letting it set up TR in the face of Incineroar.
  3. Aegislash: A- --> B+(?) (was useful w ghostium when cress was everywhere, cress dropping in usage and rise of incineroar means that its role is no longer needed as much in the current metagame). Agree as Aegislash has seen limited success recently
  4. Amoonguss: A- --> B+ (previously one of the best redirectors in the format, being able to redirect and support its allys, now just is not as effective as before due to incineroar being on almost every team). Amoonguss still sees good usage and success. I agree with the drop to A-, but I think that B+ is too far. Amoonguss still does it jobs even against Incineroar. It's also commonly paired with Incineroar itself who helps it redirect safely with Intimidate (including avoiding a OHKO from opposing Incineroar even if 252 HP / 4 Def Sassy) and Fake Out to use Spore.
  5. Snorlax: A- --> A (it sees success of mimilax teams recently, even in post incineroar meta, and is still able to function very well on balance teams as a setup sweeper, in or outside of trick room). Agree
  6. Ludicolo/Pelipper/Politoed: B+ --> B (these three are usually used specifically on rain teams only, especially ludicolo and pelipper ; albeit its recent success in tournaments, ludicolo struggles to make itself effective outside of rain. Rain has top cut many events recently. Ludicolo is the prime rain sweeper and often why rain is worth using, and either Politoed/Pelipper are needed for this. Both have their uses
  7. Mimikyu: B --> B+ (recent success in tournaments prove its effectiveness in post incineroar meta, functions really well in a meta where m gar and m garde are common, can support various Z move options allowing it to fit into teams). Indifferent, tentative yes The most common Pokemon on full TR teams (largely as being the most reliably TR set up user), and useful on TR teams. But no higher
  8. Whimsicott: B --> B-/C+ (kinda like a sitting duck, outclassed by clefairy most of the time, also dies to incineroar). Definitely not C+, maybe B-. Still strong with MGengar + Kommo-O. Could see drop to B_ since MGeng + Whimsicott loses hard to Incineroar.
  9. Raichu: B- --> B+ (current meta puts it in a very favourable position as a fast fake out user, with encore support and volt switch, coupled with lightningrod to further support its common teammates such as zard y, fini and braviary, also has decent amounts of success in recent tours). Agree to B, tentative yes to B+
  10. Gyarados-M: B- --> C+ (almost never seen in the current meta, also outclassed by other dark types and water types, role is usually not needed in the current metagame, not as effective as before due to lack of offensive presence). Agree
  11. Hitmontop: B- --> C (outclassed primarily by incineroar, lando and other intimidators, only niche is it being able to provide wide guard as well and fighting coverage). Should drop to C+, but should not be dropped lower than Scrafty. Scrafty is more outclassed by Incineroar than Hitmontop.
  12. Latias-M: B- --> C (rise of kommo o means more fairies, also with the rise of incineroar, this mon just isnt able to perform well in the current metagame). I'm ok with this as I haven't seen it forever. Fairies were really common before Kommo-O; I wouldn't say that Kommo-O increased fairies.
[Edit]: ignore if any of the suggested changes ive mentioned above ahs already been implemented, im bad at reading
 
I believe Incineroar should be moved up to S rank. It was used on 24 of the top 32 teams in Korean nationals, half of the top 8 at Russian nationals, and 6 of the top 8 of Toronto Regionals. That's only naming of a few of its tournament successes. Beyond that it can seemingly slot on to any team with ease. While it has a few checks, it has no solid counter in the metagame, and the threat of it shapes the teambuilding process more than any other Pokémon currently.
 
I believe Incineroar should be moved up to S rank. It was used on 24 of the top 32 teams in Korean nationals, half of the top 8 at Russian nationals, and 6 of the top 8 of Toronto Regionals. That's only naming of a few of its tournament successes. Beyond that it can seemingly slot on to any team with ease. While it has a few checks, it has no solid counter in the metagame, and the threat of it shapes the teambuilding process more than any other Pokémon currently.
I’m not sure I agree with the no hard counter and few checks part. Tapu Fini comes to mind. Milotic too. Anything with a strong Fighting type move. Or Rock or Ground. It doesn’t like Nihilego much. Even a Megagross can outspeed it and pick it off with stomping tantrum if it’s weakened. And Rain teams threaten it too. Landorus as well. Even Garchomp.
 
I’m not sure I agree with the no hard counter and few checks part. Tapu Fini comes to mind. Milotic too. Anything with a strong Fighting type move. Or Rock or Ground. It doesn’t like Nihilego much. Even a Megagross can outspeed it and pick it off with stomping tantrum if it’s weakened. And Rain teams threaten it too. Landorus as well. Even Garchomp.
I haven't come across many Garchomps lately so I can't attest to that matchup, but rain and Metagross are definitely not hard counter. While it is definitely not a fan of Milotic or Fini, I wouldn't call them hard counters. AV variants with no SpD investment (usually there is at least some additional SpD) are 3HKO by Milotic. Specs Fini does have a 2HKO against in, but CM variants are again only 3HKO. Low kick generally reduces Nihelgo and most other powerful rock types to check level and not counter.

Basically what I'm saying is that it is the best Intimidator in the meta. It's also the best Fake Out user in the meta, the best fire type, dark type, and knock off user. The best any single mon can hope to be against it is slightly advantaged, and not a huge advantage. Furthermore, it is restrictive to team building as all teams need to have an answer for it to be competitive due to its omnipresence.

The definition of S-rank is "Reserved for the very best Pokemon in the VGC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. "

Variety of roles effectively? Check.
Low risk, high reward? Check.
Very few flaws? Check.
Patched up by numerous positive traits? Check.

Incineroar is the single best and most prevalent Pokémon in the meta right now even though it has had a target on its back for months. It slots on basically any team, and is the textbook definition of S-rank.
 
I was more implying that Incineroar can’t really do much to bulky waters. Doesn’t matter if it’s only a 3/2HKO if Incineroar doesn’t threaten them at all back.

Just out of curiosity, did you factor in Milotic’s Competitive boost?

Having said that, I really don’t mind if Incineroar goes to S rank. I’ll concede that argument. Its usage is very very high.
 
I haven't come across many Garchomps lately so I can't attest to that matchup, but rain and Metagross are definitely not hard counter. While it is definitely not a fan of Milotic or Fini, I wouldn't call them hard counters. AV variants with no SpD investment (usually there is at least some additional SpD) are 3HKO by Milotic. Specs Fini does have a 2HKO against in, but CM variants are again only 3HKO. Low kick generally reduces Nihelgo and most other powerful rock types to check level and not counter.

Basically what I'm saying is that it is the best Intimidator in the meta. It's also the best Fake Out user in the meta, the best fire type, dark type, and knock off user. The best any single mon can hope to be against it is slightly advantaged, and not a huge advantage. Furthermore, it is restrictive to team building as all teams need to have an answer for it to be competitive due to its omnipresence.

The definition of S-rank is "Reserved for the very best Pokemon in the VGC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. "

Variety of roles effectively? Check.
Low risk, high reward? Check.
Very few flaws? Check.
Patched up by numerous positive traits? Check.

Incineroar is the single best and most prevalent Pokémon in the meta right now even though it has had a target on its back for months. It slots on basically any team, and is the textbook definition of S-rank.
Yeah the more tournament results I see, the more I think that Incineroar should be S. Yeah Fini and Milotic are soft checks, but the fact that Milotic has risen so much in usage simply as a soft check to cini should mean something. Cini is so much better than the rest of the mons in A+ (except for Lando-T maybe) and I think the only reason people are so hesitant to agree with the big boi to be S rank is because the meta isn't completely developed yet and they're still holding out that we can find a hard counter, but I don't see it happening. We've already established that it's the most splashable mon and it's the best at everything it does, so let's move it up already.
 

Netherious

formerly Shivershaft
is a Pre-Contributor
Ask and you shall receive:



Incineroar A+ --> S


Kartana A- --> A


Aegislash A- --> B+


Snorlax A- --> A


Whimsicott B --> B-


Mega Gyarados B- --> C+


Hitmontop B- --> C+


Scrafty C+ --> C


Mega Latias B- --> C


Rotom-W B- --> C


Naganadel B- --> C

Things are starting to look pretty good. Not much else I see that will merit a move at this point beyond potentially moving down Salamence and Tyranitar. Any suggestions or nominations? If possible, I'd like to see some replays if it's an oddball nomination showcasing the success or failures.
 
I propose moving Mimikyu from B to A- or at least B+. The Mimikyu Snorlax has become increasingly popular taking 2 top 8 spots in the Roanoke Regional, including the winning team. It has also been prevalent in the top 8 of many other Regionals and Nationals. Aside from pairing incredibly well with Snorlax, Mimikyu is also probably the best TR setter for hard TR teams in the format. With a usage rate that falls above Pokémon such as Mega-Manetric, Mega-Salamence, Milotic, and Porygon2 (per Pikalytics), I believe that B is simply too low for Mimikyu.
 
I have been pondering this for a long time:

So, other than a few outspoken individuals, we have no real way of telling people's opinions on certain mons. For instance, we have heard a couple give very valid reasons to move Intimiroar up, but that kind of change requires more than that. I am suggesting that we create a poll system.

Ways I would achieve this:
- When there is a pressing topic such as Intimiroar, I would create a google form
- It would ask where do you want x mon?
- And then it would have an option for each rank
- Once completed, I would average the numbers out,
- Then post the average rank (Rounded) to Smogon
REASONS:
This would help organize decisions
Give definitive evidence towards ranking
Make ranking less easily biased (I am guilty of this because due to my own biases, I was the one that tried to get Weavile higher pre-Intimiroar)

- Golisipod User

I could run this, as I am on the forum frequently
Thoughts?

______________________________________
If you were you'd know not to double post lol
 
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That's why I asked.
And at the end of the day, I would just be running calcs, he would tell me what to do

Here is an example one for Weavile (One of my fave mons):
https://goo.gl/forms/0vGufO52Wy0FuhOQ2

If people would be game to try this as a test run, that would be awesome

For it to be accurate, I will only calc it once 20 ppl answer
 
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Should Incineroar really be S tier? If it is, I'd argue Lando should join it. Yes Incineroar is ahead, but Lando is right behind it in CP earned and CP to Win Ratio. (Compared to pre Incineroar where Lando literally had double the CP of the next mon) I'd say both should be A+ tier with S tier being empty. The game doesn't completely centralize around both of them, they are just very good mons that fit on a lot of different teams.
 

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