Resource VGC 2018 Viability Rankings

Golisopod User said:
Could I possibly ask people to try the poll on the previous page
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This is something I'll consider, but I'd prefer to hear reasoning rather than a simple vote. I want proof behind why the move is justifiable. Maltrab just made an amazing point that I hadn't seen before and I'm surveying the options.

Personally I see why Lando and Cini should be in the same tier because they honestly beat eachother pretty well. It's more in favor of Landorus but if two Pokemons usage depend on one another to balance eachother, they should be in roughly the same tier. I'm gonna wait a little longer on this one.

In the meantime let's see some more discussion on Incineroar. I think if we are going to do a poll for a Pokémon I'd think incineroar is the only one worthy of one right now. Golisopod User You're more than welcome to make a poll for this and if you DM me the link I'll paste in into this post and give it a spin. I still would like to hear more talk about this but just based on likes I can see Maltrab makes a strongly supported point.
 
Golisopod User said:
I have been pondering this for a long time:

So, other than a few outspoken individuals, we have no real way of telling people's opinions on certain mons. For instance, we have heard a couple give very valid reasons to move Intimiroar up, but that kind of change requires more than that. I am suggesting that we create a poll system.

Ways I would achieve this:
- When there is a pressing topic such as Intimiroar, I would create a google form
- It would ask where do you want x mon?
- And then it would have an option for each rank
- Once completed, I would average the numbers out,
- Then post the average rank (Rounded) to Smogon
REASONS:
This would help organize decisions
Give definitive evidence towards ranking
Make ranking less easily biased (I am guilty of this because due to my own biases, I was the one that tried to get Weavile higher pre-Intimiroar)

- Golisipod User

I could run this, as I am on the forum frequently
Thoughts?

______________________________________
If you were you'd know not to double post lol
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I don't have any power in this thread any more, but viability rankings are not a democratic process and never have been. It's always been down to one person (or several council members, in the case of larger metagames) to determine whether stuff moves up and down, so they can pull together peoples' various posts in this thread, weigh them appropriately, and also look at outside information such as recent top cuts and stuff.
 
Maltrab said:
View attachment 119068

Should Incineroar really be S tier? If it is, I'd argue Lando should join it. Yes Incineroar is ahead, but Lando is right behind it in CP earned and CP to Win Ratio. (Compared to pre Incineroar where Lando literally had double the CP of the next mon) I'd say both should be A+ tier with S tier being empty. The game doesn't completely centralize around both of them, they are just very good mons that fit on a lot of different teams.
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Ok but is this over the whole season or is this just Lando CP post-incineroar? Because if it's the latter, I'd agree with you, but if it's the former, and this is just all the cumulative CP, and Kitty is STILL HIGHER, i think you're wrong. But maybe we should consider S- for kitty?
 
0verloud said:
Ok but is this over the whole season or is this just Lando CP post-incineroar? Because if it's the latter, I'd agree with you, but if it's the former, and this is just all the cumulative CP, and Kitty is STILL HIGHER, i think you're wrong. But maybe we should consider S- for kitty?
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That is just post Inciniroar getting Intimidate. Pre Inciniroar, Landorus-T was literally double of the next highest mon. At the very least, both should be in the same tier. Whether that's S or A+, I'm not sure.
 
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Incineroar S --> S-

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Landorus-T A+ --> S-

These two pokemon are arguably the best pokemon in VGC 2018, and as such I believe they both deserve the move to S tier as a means of balance. Incineroar is NOT single handedly better than Landorus-T and vise versa. They are both versatile and can handle different threats very easily within the metagame. Comparing the two for which one is better comes down to a fine tooth comb over the VGC stats and CP records, which shows Landorus-T is historically better from a CP standpoint, and Incineroar has risen to the challenge of Landorus-T. Incineroar has almost single-handedly disrupted the Trick Room meta, being a perfect answer to many TR setters.

I think S- is the right spot for the both of them, because they are better than all of the A+ Pokemon.
 
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Marzbar said:
Challenge accepted. This year VGC is getting crabs.

Both Liquidation and Crabhammer OHKO standard Landorus and Incineroar. It also outspeeds Incineroar without any investment. I just need to decide on an item, nature and final move set....
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NOTABLE MOVES KINGLER GETS:
Ally Switch, Knock, icy wind, rockslide, Haze...sounds like a hell of an offensive support, lul.
Marzbar PM me if you wanna shitpost build with me
 
ck49 said:
Not nearly as good as Hyper Cutter Crabominable, which also hits both.

Wu tang crab aint nuthin to fuck wit.
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See that’s where you fall into the trap. You can’t use Crawdaunt or Crabominable for this role because their secondary typing makes them vulnerable to Low Kick which is used by most Incineroar.

Golisopod User said:
But it's a pure water type, making it very vulnerable to threats like Koko, Zapdos, and Bulu
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Pure water typing is actually a blessing. The only real issue though is no access to Aqua Jet :(

Other notable moves not mentioned: Superpower, X Scissor, Ice Beam, Wide Guard

Also it would greatly benefit from a Lightning Rod teammate....
 
I'd change S- rank to S rank. The point of the +/ /- subranks is to differentiate Pokemon within the rank. There is no differentiation between two Pokemon in the S rank if they're both in the same subrank.

Otherwise
  • Move Volcarona down to C. I've seen very limited success by Volcarona in the post-Incineroar metagame, certainly less than Rotom-W, and less than many other set-up sweepers including ZardX, Excadrill, Xurk, and Azumarill
  • Rotom-W up to C+. It's been one of the most successful C rank Pokemon, and it just recently top cut both the Trainer Tower Open and Melbourne Regionals (both used on the same team by the same person as the 6th slot on a Kommo-O team). Good check to many of the best Pokemon like Incineroar, Lando-T and Tapu Fini
  • Rotom-H down to C. Basically the reasons that we moved Rotom-W in the first place apply for Rotom-H, but it has seen even less success
  • Xurkitree up to B-. This thing has top cut multiple times recently. The most common Kommo-O team I see top cutting recently is Kom/MGeng/Incin/Bulu/Clef/Xurk. The next most common is replacing Xurk with Azumarill. Both their top cut successes are limited to the Kom teams. So I feel that Xurk should be in at least the same rank as Azumarill.
  • Marowak-A top cut Melbourne regionals. I'm thinking I was too hasty in asking Marowak-A to be removed - it could join the other rejects who are difficult to fit on a team but have some viable use in C-. Trick Room attacker with Lightning Rod and a useful Fire-typing. Potentially as a teammate for Kingler?
  • [EDIT] On second thoughts, I agree with MMence dropping to B+. I feel it's underrated, but its usage and success is currently not the level that we would expect on any of the A subranks, lower even than the Ttars (which have seen more success very recently than earlier in the post-Incineroar metagame - for example in the Trainer Tower Open, and winning Melbourne Regionals)
 
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Darkmalice said:
I'd change S- rank to S rank. The point of the +/ /- subranks s to differentiate Pokemon within the rank. There is no differentiation between two Pokemon in the S rank if they're both in the same subrank.

Otherwise
  • Move Volcarona down to C. I've seen very limited success by Volcarona in the post-Incineroar metagame, certainly less than Rotom-W, and less than many other set-up sweepers including ZardX, Excadrill, Xurk, and Azumarill
  • Rotom-W up to C+. It's been one of the most successful C rank Pokemon, and it just recently top cut both the Trainer Tower Open and Melbourne Regionals (both used on the same team by the same person as the 6th slot on a Kommo-O team). Good check to many of the best Pokemon like Incineroar, Lando-T and Tapu Fini
  • Rotom-C down to C. Basically the reasons that we moved Rotom-W in the first place apply for Rotom-C, but it has seen even less success
  • Xurkitree up to B-. This thing has top cut multiple times recently. The most common Kommo-O team I see top cutting recently is Kom/MGeng/Incin/Bulu/Clef/Xurk. The next most common is replacing Xurk with Azumarill. Both their top cut successes are limited to the Kom teams. So I feel that Xurk should be in at least the same rank as Azumarill.
  • Marowak-A top cut Melbourne regionals. I'm thinking I was too hasty in asking Marowak-A to be removed - it could join the other rejects who are difficult to fit on a team but have some viable use in C-. Trick Room attacker with Lightning Rod and a useful Fire-typing. Potentially as a teammate for Kingler?
  • [EDIT] On second thoughts, I agree with MMence dropping to B+. I feel it's underrated, but its usage and success is currently not the level that we would expect on any of the A subranks, lower even than the Ttars (which have seen more success very recently than earlier in the post-Incineroar metagame - for example in the Trainer Tower Open, and winning Melbourne Regionals)
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Especially agree with rotom-w. One of the most popular sets reaaaally high up on the ladder is speedy Electroweb. After it, it can outspeeds base 110s. Can confirm it works quite well.
 
Darkmalice said:
I'd change S- rank to S rank. The point of the +/ /- subranks is to differentiate Pokemon within the rank. There is no differentiation between two Pokemon in the S rank if they're both in the same subrank.

Otherwise
  • Move Volcarona down to C. I've seen very limited success by Volcarona in the post-Incineroar metagame, certainly less than Rotom-W, and less than many other set-up sweepers including ZardX, Excadrill, Xurk, and Azumarill This seems like a pretty big drop for a mon that still has a decent amount of usage and CP. Nearly as much as Xurk does to be specific. I'm thinking B- for this one.
  • Rotom-W up to C+. It's been one of the most successful C rank Pokemon, and it just recently top cut both the Trainer Tower Open and Melbourne Regionals (both used on the same team by the same person as the 6th slot on a Kommo-O team). Good check to many of the best Pokemon like Incineroar, Lando-T and Tapu Fini This will be implemented.
  • Rotom-H down to C. Basically the reasons that we moved Rotom-W in the first place apply for Rotom-H, but it has seen even less success This will be implemented.
  • Xurkitree up to B-. This thing has top cut multiple times recently. The most common Kommo-O team I see top cutting recently is Kom/MGeng/Incin/Bulu/Clef/Xurk. The next most common is replacing Xurk with Azumarill. Both their top cut successes are limited to the Kom teams. So I feel that Xurk should be in at least the same rank as Azumarill. This will be implemented.
  • Marowak-A top cut Melbourne regionals. I'm thinking I was too hasty in asking Marowak-A to be removed - it could join the other rejects who are difficult to fit on a team but have some viable use in C-. Trick Room attacker with Lightning Rod and a useful Fire-typing. Potentially as a teammate for Kingler? Considering this.
  • [EDIT] On second thoughts, I agree with MMence dropping to B+. I feel it's underrated, but its usage and success is currently not the level that we would expect on any of the A subranks, lower even than the Ttars (which have seen more success very recently than earlier in the post-Incineroar metagame - for example in the Trainer Tower Open, and winning Melbourne Regionals) This will be implemented.
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Mega Salamence A- --> B+

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Volcarona B+ --> B-

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Rotom-H B- --> C

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Xurkitree C+ --> B-

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Rotom-W C --> B-


I want to think more on adding Marowak-A. Beyond that, that's all I've got for now!
 
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-756608450
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-756609492
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-756610953
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-756735836
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-756970919
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-756988192
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-756990970

I know this isn't high level match since I dropped the game monthes ago and started playing again only recently, but I really have a lot of succes with Shiftry paired mainly with Charizard-Y but also as a good support for Kommo-o for example or Stakataka. Since he's quick under the sun and slow otherwise, I can often abuse of Fake Out+Fling and he deals surprisingly good damages to a lot of the metegame.

So I insist, Shiftry should be somewhere on this ranking.
 
ExXIII said:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-756608450
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-756609492
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-756610953
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-756735836
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-756970919
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-756988192
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7vgc2018-756990970

I know this isn't high level match since I dropped the game monthes ago and started playing again only recently, but I really have a lot of succes with Shiftry paired mainly with Charizard-Y but also as a good support for Kommo-o for example or Stakataka. Since he's quick under the sun and slow otherwise, I can often abuse of Fake Out+Fling and he deals surprisingly good damages to a lot of the metegame.

So I insist, Shiftry should be somewhere on this ranking.
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We only rank Pokemon relevant to metagame. Shiftry hasn't been successful in the VGC setting - zero top cuts as far as I'm aware. Otherwise we'd be ranking everything that has some niche, which is half of all fully evolved Pokemon. I'd be willing to change my mind if you did well in an irl VGC tournament with it.

Also with your replays: Replays 1- 5 and 7 weren't too helpful as they involved either bad play from your opponent in managing Shiftry (and ZardY), your opponent having a subpar team with which to handle metagame relevant threats, poor choice of Pokemon to bring to the start of the match, or a combination of these factors. They felt more like your opponent didn't put up a show rather than a valid test of Shiftry's strength, which some terrible mistakes like a Celesteela switching into Zard Y, a team that auto-losses to a competent Kommo-O team, not bringing Arcanine or Lando-T early enough into the game, a Azumarill setting up Belly Drum at a time where a sweep was impossible, and Trevenant using Curse against a Zard Y. Your opponent was fine in replay 6, but Shiftry didn't actually achieve much, nothing that Venasuar or another speedy attacker wouldn't have achieved - ignoring the part where a non-Choiced Lele used Psychic on Shiftry (had it used Moonblast you would have lost).

Furthermore those replays were best of 1. After the 1st match, knowing that your Shiftry is fully physical holding a King's Rock, competent opponents should be able to handle it well in the next two matches (for example very easy to OHKO, and Intimidate prone).
 
So I have some bad news....

Kingler testing has not gone well. It's good against all the Intimidate users, but for some reason on Showdown I didn't come across enough of them to really make it worthwhile occupying a team slot.

I tested it paired with a lot of theoretical teammates. Follow Me Clefairy, Fake Out Incineroar, Lightning Rod Mega Sceptile, Tailwind Zapdos, Tailwind Whimsicott, Drizzle Tailwind Pelipper, and Trick Room Cresselia/Stakataka.

It didn't really perform well. It dies to pretty much any strong attack. Its poor speed means it needs Tailwind or Trick Room support but why bother when there are stronger pokemon to abuse those strategies. Ally Switch is cute, especially paired with an Electric resist, but Kingler can't really take any attack that it switches into. Clefairy was decent because you can redirect attacks while Kingler uses Swords Dance, but then Kingler is still slow. And it has a weak coverage movepool (only room for Superpower or Knock Off). The most success I had was in a rain team paired with Tailwind Drizzle support. This negates the need for Swords Dance and fixes Kingler's speed issue. But there's better Rain abusers. Having said all that, Hyper Cutter is still really good and Kingler hits hard when it gets an attack in. It's just too slow and frail most of the time. It seems to need a Focus Sash as well, which means it sadly can't use Life Orb or Splash Plate or Fightinium Z.

TLDR: I won't be pushing for a Viability ranking anytime soon :(
Soz everyone. RIP Crabs 2018.
 
Marzbar said:
So I have some bad news....

Kingler testing has not gone well. It's good against all the Intimidate users, but for some reason on Showdown I didn't come across enough of them to really make it worthwhile occupying a team slot.

I tested it paired with a lot of theoretical teammates. Follow Me Clefairy, Fake Out Incineroar, Lightning Rod Mega Sceptile, Tailwind Zapdos, Tailwind Whimsicott, Drizzle Tailwind Pelipper, and Trick Room Cresselia/Stakataka.

It didn't really perform well. It dies to pretty much any strong attack. Its poor speed means it needs Tailwind or Trick Room support but why bother when there are stronger pokemon to abuse those strategies. Ally Switch is cute, especially paired with an Electric resist, but Kingler can't really take any attack that it switches into. Clefairy was decent because you can redirect attacks while Kingler uses Swords Dance, but then Kingler is still slow. And it has a weak coverage movepool (only room for Superpower or Knock Off). The most success I had was in a rain team paired with Tailwind Drizzle support. This negates the need for Swords Dance and fixes Kingler's speed issue. But there's better Rain abusers. Having said all that, Hyper Cutter is still really good and Kingler hits hard when it gets an attack in. It's just too slow and frail most of the time. It seems to need a Focus Sash as well, which means it sadly can't use Life Orb or Splash Plate or Fightinium Z.

TLDR: I won't be pushing for a Viability ranking anytime soon :(
Soz everyone. RIP Crabs 2018.
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I commend you for your efforts. Maybe one day...

JUNE UPDATE:

Some pretty surprising moves will be made today thanks to a large shift in the metagame over the past couple of weekends.

The biggest of the moves will be the following:

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Heatran C- --> B+

A massive turnout of top ranking players using Heatran with great success has forced Heatran to jump all the way up to B+! The increase in Nihilego around has also brought about more Heatran looking to defend against their Island Guardian of choice.

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Blaziken-Mega Unranked --> B-

Blaziken in it's mega form has seen a lot of success as of recent, almost outperforming Tyranitar this last month.

Here's the rest of the changes based on recent performance and promising trends in the meta:

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Snorlax A --> A+

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Tapu Lele A --> A+

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Tyranitar A- --> B

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Mega Mawile B --> B-

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Mimikyu B --> B+

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Mega Aerodactyl B- --> C

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Excadrill B- --> C+

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Stakataka B- --> C

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Accelgor C+ --> B-

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Blaziken C+ --> C-

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Lurantis C+ --> C-

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Nidoking C+ --> C-

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Mega Latias C --> Unranked

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Malamar C --> Unranked

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Hariyama C- --> Unranked

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Hydreigon C- --> Unranked

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Weavile C- --> Unranked


This concludes June's early month update. Discuss!
 
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