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Resource VGC 2018 Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Netherious
- Start date
I would have to disagree with Weavile being UR, as while it's not the best, it is an incredibly fast ice type that can abuse icium z. Plus its fake out is faster than intimiroar
I have been testing with LR Raichu + Megahorn Bulu, and getting great results. Will upload soon.
I ran with C Scarf, and no sword dance, and that counteracted his terrible speed
I have been testing with LR Raichu + Megahorn Bulu, and getting great results. Will upload soon.
I ran with C Scarf, and no sword dance, and that counteracted his terrible speed
I mean, faster fake out than kitty is nice, but if you're into that why not run kangaskhan, which can actually live a hit and return damage. Ice isn't even that useful anymore because dragons are dead and there are better ways to deal with lando, so like....keep it unranked imo.
I agree with this, He's also super predictable by almost always having the same set and the amount of weaknesses he has don't really compensate for what he's good at.
Flying types are still relevant
I get what you mean. He really only runs Stab Moves + Fake out. But he has his niche. C- imo
I also think Celesteela should move down, as Kitty wrecks it. Also, Pikalytics says that its usage is down at 6%, which is roughly equivalent to Salamence, who handles the meta better.
Also, as the meta involves a lot of Intimidate users, who like to switch in and out, Celesteela can't really set up Leech Seed effectively
Same deal with Ferrothorn neither has a niche
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That's in the last 2 weeks alone, and doesn't even include MSSs. Neither has a niche?
I'd move Drilfblim up to C. It's seen quite a bit of success lately alongside Tapu Lele. Those Unburden Tailwind + Will-O-Wisp still provide useful support and it has decent bulk to boot. One placed Top 2 in Malaysia Regionals, and two placed Top 8 in Virginia Regionals. And before anyone says Incineroar, keep in mind that it's immune to Fake Out and uses its item before it gets Knocked Off.
Farfetch'd has zero viability and is a terrible example of a D rank Pokemon. I feel that either:
D-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are generally bad in the VGC metagame, but are decent enough to justify their occasional use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Their niche is often so tiny, that they are not worth using the majority of the time.
Farfetch'd
Everything else
Farfetch'd has zero viability and is a terrible example of a D rank Pokemon. I feel that either:
- D rank should be removed
- D rank becomes a rank for Pokemon that have seen success in VGC 18 and are technically viable, but very difficult to justify their use. Some of the current C- Pokemon like Arcanine, Primarina, and Terrakion, or Pokemon that were previously on the list and had some degree of success but very little like Hydreigon, could go here.
D rank is just meant for everything else. Farfetch'd is just in there as something of a joke by Overloud more than anything lol
If anything, I think Celesteela has benefited from Incineroar coming into the meta. It's caused the decrease in Charizard and Heatran usage. While incineroar is obviously a really good Pokemon, the nature of fake out + Intimidate makes it want to switch in and out a lot, and thus it's likely to be one of the first Pokemon KO'd. If you're running Celesteela your gameplan is likely "take out the fire type and let Celesteela win", and that's easier to do against Incineroar than against other fire types. Combine that with Tapu Koko's drop in usage, and you've got a very good Pokemon.
Incineroar + Nihilego + Celesteela is a disaster waiting to happen, It'll continue to increase in usage as Incineroar+Nihilego has. That duo really needs someone to help handle Landorus + Scarf Lele teams... either way Celesteela and Ferrothorn DEFINITELY have a role, not even a niche, in this metagame. They are some of the best win condition Pokemon you can chose to have on your team. Like said here with the "take out the fire type and let Celesteela/Ferrothorn win" is a common case and many players simply don't know how to beat them. Celesteela will be the sleeper hit for the rest of the season and I'll stand by that.
Anyways, Darkmalice I'm kind of a fan of the D tier having a purpose. Farfetch'd is a meme from our VGC discord since D tier has essentially been useless but with the expansion of so many viable mons in this metagame I think I've got enough pokemon that make sense in there I'll make that revision below:
Drifblim C- --> C
Greninja C- --> C
Gigalith C --> C-
Naganadel C --> C-
Togedemaru C --> C-
Torkoal C --> C-
Venusaur C --> C-
Arcanine C- --> D
Pheromosa C- --> D
Primarina C- --> D
Terrakion C- --> D
Mega Latias Unranked --> D
Malamar Unranked --> D
Hariyama Unranked --> D
Hydreigon Unranked --> D
That's it for now! I really liked this idea to actually utilize D tier. Thanks! Next update comes after the weekend!
I'd like to hear more about this Nihilego + Incineroar core. I wrote Scarf with dual STAB, HP Ice, and Foul Play for it, is that typical or is there a better moveset or item? I'm going off the top of my head with this
I'm not experienced with Scarf Nihilego that much, but I've found with a Sash set that the 4th move slot kind of depends on your local meta, and what coverage move is best suited to dealing with threats to your team. At my regionals I went with Grass Knot because of Milotic, Tyranitar and any Swampert or Gastrodon. But I didn't have any Grass mons on my team. You could choose Foul Play, Psychic, Dazzling Gleam, Thunderbolt, Grass Knot.... whatever you need to surprise something that usually would beat you. And I guess whatever would suck the least to be locked into... (so probably don't choose Thunderbolt?)
Something to think about after a quick browse of VGCStats:
Hydreigon
Mega Latias
Pheromosa
Terrakion
Above is a complete list of every D-ranked Pokemon to have earned more CP than Alolan Ninetales, which, as I remember correctly, was hastily removed from the rankings as soon as Shivershaft took over this thread. As another example, Mega Lopunny has earned more CP than most of D (overall slightly higher than Ninetales-A), and the bulk of M-Lop's CP (all but ~250) is post-Incineroar.
Given that these two Pokemon have better performance than all but four of the Pokemon in D (and from a brief search, one Pokemon in C-, I don't wanna name names but it's Hawlucha), one of these two statements must be true:
1. Ninetales-A and M-Lopunny are deserving of a spot in D rank
2. The criteria for D ranking needs substantial revision
I'll let y'all come to the conclusion on which one is the case on your own, that's all I wanted to contribute for now
Hydreigon
Mega Latias
Pheromosa
Terrakion
Above is a complete list of every D-ranked Pokemon to have earned more CP than Alolan Ninetales, which, as I remember correctly, was hastily removed from the rankings as soon as Shivershaft took over this thread. As another example, Mega Lopunny has earned more CP than most of D (overall slightly higher than Ninetales-A), and the bulk of M-Lop's CP (all but ~250) is post-Incineroar.
Given that these two Pokemon have better performance than all but four of the Pokemon in D (and from a brief search, one Pokemon in C-, I don't wanna name names but it's Hawlucha), one of these two statements must be true:
1. Ninetales-A and M-Lopunny are deserving of a spot in D rank
2. The criteria for D ranking needs substantial revision
I'll let y'all come to the conclusion on which one is the case on your own, that's all I wanted to contribute for now
With D-rank being a new thing, I think it will take a while to refine what belongs in there and what doesn't, I doubt this first instalment of the list was meant to be exhaustive. Of your 2 options, I think the first is correct; Ninetales is a bit difficult to use, but Aurora Veil provides the same great value as it used to and helps out heavy setup. It's a very niche pick for sure, but as its CP count shows, it can work.
As for M-Lopunny, I think it could go as far as C-, it's been seeing a progressive rise in usage, and though I never expect it to be a top pick, I've seen it on several top cut lists lately (I could go and find these again if necessary). The fact it can both do good damage, including to Incineroar at -1, and offer utility with Encore or Fake Tears depending on the team's needs is pretty nice (not to mention Fake Out, of course).
And since you mention Hawlucha, I think it should either go down to D or be unranked. It's been tried again and again and again through the season and has never found much success. The rise of Drifblim shows yet another better Unburden option (Accelgor has been doing pretty good too lately).
While I have this opportunity, I'd like to share some surprising findings from the Showdown usage stats from the high ladder that came out yesterday. Obviously, Showdown play doesn't fully represent tournament play, but the trends of the high ladder often translate:
- Kartana is #2 in usage, with about the same percentage as Fini (from 19% to 44%!). I knew it was on the rise, but whoa...!
- Kangaskhan is #5, and is the most used mega. Didn't see that one coming either (from 11% to 27%).
- Unsurprisingly, huge rise in Nihilego, #11 in usage now.
- Heatran is back in top 10 (this has been discussed in this thread already).
- After a big spike in usage last month, M-Gardevoir has gone back down quite a lot, now at #33, under M-Ttar and M-Salamence.
Even though these may not perfectly translate in tournaments, I think they show trends that can warrant some movement in the rankings, especially for Pokémon that have seen similar trends on Battle Spot and tournaments (Kartana, Nihilego, potentially Kangkaskhan).
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So basically D tier is a pretty new thing as you know so I'll be updating this tomorrow with some more moves related to D tier because I have heard of some other suggestions. D tier will have Ninetails and Hawlucha added to it and lopunny is definitely C material and honestly it is one of the few Pokemon who have slipped my mind in updating this thread.
As far as showdown rankings I will be paying attention to those moves, Gardevoir usage has been down and Kangaskhan usage has been up so you'll see some moves pertaining to this tomorrow! I tend to make changes in large waves, as this metagame seems to shift drastically pretty often as far as lower tier rises go. Let me know if you guys have other suggestions for lower movement. The high tier movement has been clear for a week now and I'll be acting on that.
Of the 4 current D rank Pokemon you didnt mention, two of them (Arcanine and Primarina) are there in large part because they had at least two top cuts in the post-Incineroar metagame. Arcanine has some niches over Incineroar like Speed and better match-ups against Kartana & MScizor, whilst Primarina functions as a less bulky Tapu Fini on teams that hate Misty Surge (Kommo-O and ZardX teams) though its usage has died down recently. Their reasons for usage still remain relevant. Hariyama was leftover from the pre-Incineroar metagame where it saw some use on TR teams and remained in the ranking threads as Incineroar provided less competition for it compared to Scrafty - its niches still remain but I am unaware of what successes it had in the post-Incineroar metagame. Malamar I have been unfamiliar with its usage and success throughout VGC18 - all I know is that it benefits from Intimidate.
I agree with Ninetales-A in D rank and MLopunny in either C or C-, indifferent about Hawlucha
I'm going to guess for the upper movement:
Kang up from B+ to A-
Heatran up from B+ to A-
Kartana up from A to A+
Mega Gardevoir down from B+ to B- or C+
Raichu up from B- to B
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1760 ratings are heavily skewed towards players who have a rating above 1760, currently 25 players. Given how it felt like everyone was using a CHALK variant on the ladder post-Madison, I feel like that biased it a ton.
The 1630 ratings are, in my opinion, much more reflective of the spread of Pokémon you are likely to see at a regional, since it essentially encompasses any of the top 300 on showdown. It doesn’t have Kartana or Kang nearly as high but does reflect their increased usage.
Yeah, I fully agree, the crazy numbers are definitely a result of the few players being represented there, proof being that the tournament and Battle Spot stats haven't seen such drastic shifts. It does at least highlight a few trends, though, since all of these movements have been seen all around, just on a smaller scale, so I feel like it deserves a few VR adjustments (I like all those suggested by Darkmalice, though I would favor Gardevoir in B or B-, not C+).
Great discussion everyone! Thank you for your input and help with developing the D tier a little more. As a result the following changes will be made:
Mega Gengar A+ --> A
Kartana A --> A+
Mega Charizard Y A- --> A
Mega Gardevoir A- --> B
Mega Manectric A- --> B
Heatran B+ --> A-
Mega Kangaskhan B+ --> A-
Nihilego B+ --> A-
Mega Venusaur B+ --> B
Bisharp B --> B+
Mega Camerupt B --> C
Celesteela B --> B+
Mega Scizor B --> B-
Mega Mawile B- --> B
Raichu B- --> B
Hawlucha C- --> D
Lurantis C- --> D
Ninetails-A Unranked --> D
Mega Lopunny Unranked --> C
That should cover everything for now! DM me if I missed anything crucial!
That should cover everything for now! DM me if I missed anything crucial!
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I don't think Heatran is A-. It was fine in B+. It's seen success on exactly one team composition since incineroar got released, and A-caliber mons should be more splashable than that imo.
I also don't think Gengar should drop - it's won two of the last three NA regionals, still has the best ability in the game. There have been as many M-Gengar in cut for the last 3 NA events as there have been Metagross in cut. If Metagross is A+ (and I think it is) then Gengar should be A+ as well.
I also don't think Gengar should drop - it's won two of the last three NA regionals, still has the best ability in the game. There have been as many M-Gengar in cut for the last 3 NA events as there have been Metagross in cut. If Metagross is A+ (and I think it is) then Gengar should be A+ as well.
Main reason Heatran moved us is that it is becoming splashable thanks to an influx of Incineroar opting for other moves over Low Kick, and Nihilego, Kartana, and Tapu's also seeing more increases.
Gengar is very borderline between A and A+ but as of right now I think Nihilego is stealing the spotlight a little bit as a pokemon not OHKO'd by Tapu Koko and threatens OHKO's on Incineroar, Zapdos, Mega Charizard X&Y, and Landorus-T. I may revoke this one if I find some more results that can convince otherwise.
How can Nihilego threaten OHKO on lando-t? Rockium Z?
HP Ice is standard on it. It OHKOs no bulk Lando, and can often get +1 from Beast Boost to KO bulky variants.
I looked through the CP list for Pokemon post-Incineroar. Adamant Zoorak's post about CP got me thinking about it. I was hesitant to suggest Pokemon to add to the D ranks so that it would not be overcrowded, but I found this helpful in refining my what I would suggest.
I noticed that Hariyama was sitting at a pathetic 124 CP (equal 151st). Multiple garbage Pokemon have more CP than it including Mega Houndoom. The next of the lowest D ranks are for comparison Hawlucha (209) and Primarina (264). Hawlucha is an overal worse Drilfbim, Primarina has use but a very specific niche. Both I feel have specific niche. Meanwhile Hariyama's niche of being a hard hitting Fighting-type that gels well with TR has just not shown, with Low Kick Incineroar doing the job (and even Low Kick is dropping in usage). Given all this, I would unrank Hariyama entirely from the viability list.
I propose to add the following to D rank:
I noticed that Hariyama was sitting at a pathetic 124 CP (equal 151st). Multiple garbage Pokemon have more CP than it including Mega Houndoom. The next of the lowest D ranks are for comparison Hawlucha (209) and Primarina (264). Hawlucha is an overal worse Drilfbim, Primarina has use but a very specific niche. Both I feel have specific niche. Meanwhile Hariyama's niche of being a hard hitting Fighting-type that gels well with TR has just not shown, with Low Kick Incineroar doing the job (and even Low Kick is dropping in usage). Given all this, I would unrank Hariyama entirely from the viability list.
I propose to add the following to D rank:
- Alolan Marowak, which was removed from C- not long ago. It's has 611 CP, has top cut in the post Incineroar metagame, and it has distinct niches that it isn't in direct competition with other Pokemon though (Lightning Rod user that fits well with TR teams and provides good offensive pressure with good offensive typing to back it up and some useful resists)
- Virizion. This had top cut multiple times in the post-Incineroar metagame and also has CP to back it up (649). Fast Grass-type with Fighting-type STAB and Close Combat. Definitely no higher than D rank, as it faces major competition from Kartana who has much better attack, a better secondary typing, and Sacred Sword which deals around 80% that of Virizon's Close Combat. However Virizion boosts the niche of far better special bulk, without the need to resort to both AV and lowering Speed, or Focus Sash. This is handy against Water-types except for Pelipper and +1 Fini (it needs +1 to OHKO with Moonblast), and it fairs better against Fire-type in general. That bulk helps for Heatran and it can survive a Heat Wave, and Stone Edge can be chosen as the 4th slot for Zard Y. Incineroar is beating both Virizion and Kartana, but it takes more from CC. Also Virizion can actually survive Inferno Overdrive when it uses Protect.
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