Resource VGC 2018 Viability Rankings

[Serpens007]

Guys, I would like to discuss Serperior... It is obviously not an A Pokemon (I think) but it can be put into work. James Baek's Team that went undefeated at Malmo Regional featured it, and it put great work. It has appeared in various top cuts also.

What do you think of him?

 

[TimG57867]

So starters just got their Hidden Abilities. Most notably:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/971721408446369792

So on top of all the crazy things Incineroar already had, it now gets Intimidate to augment its already potent bulk and improve its matchups against other Intimidators and users of EQ and Fighting attacks...Incineroar for A/A+?

 

[Serpens007]

Oh god. He will be soooo good

 

[Vengeance417]

Incineroar is literally scary now.

 

[DreamPrince]

So starters just got their Hidden Abilities. Most notably:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/971721408446369792

So on top of all the crazy things Incineroar already had, it now gets Intimidate to augment its already potent bulk and improve its matchups against other Intimidators and users of EQ and Fighting attacks...Incineroar for A/A+?

So glad I didn’t breed a Litten for VGC yet!

 

[Darkmalice]

Guys, I would like to discuss Serperior... It is obviously not an A Pokemon (I think) but it can be put into work. James Baek's Team that went undefeated at Malmo Regional featured it, and it put great work. It has appeared in various top cuts also.

What do you think of him?

It's difficult to warrant fitting on a team. It fit well on Baek's team as it paired well with Alola-Persian, and it would have been mediocre but viable otherwise. Leaf Storm, whilst hitting some notable Pokemon super-effective (Tyranitar, Water-types), has poor mono-coverage, and Serperior's very weak at +0, where as other set-up sweepers can still hit hard on turn 0. In terms of fast Grass-types, it competes with Whimsicott, which though weaker, has more generally use and prankster abuse, including for the Swagger and Taunt on Baek's team. I don't think it's higher than C+, and in I'm leaning towards C- alongside Pokemon like Bisharp, Hariyama, Rhyperior, and Garchomp who, though have reason for use and aren't (at least completely) outclassed, are difficult to justify on the team over other Pokemon.

Mega Lopunny for one of the C-ranks too? Leaning towards C rank. It's suitable for hyper-offensive teams which appreciate the Fake Out support. Graham Amedeee nearly top cut Oceania IC with a team featuring it. It differentiates itself from other Megas due to its high Speed (outspeeding Koko is amazing) in combination with Fake Out and perfect coverage with Return + HJK/Low Kick, freeing up the fourth slot for what your team needs most. Alongside it in C is Infernape (a non-Mega fast Fighting type with Fake Out, but less Atk/Spe) and MBlastoise (another Fake Out Mega, but whose use greatly differs).

So starters just got their Hidden Abilities. Most notably:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/971721408446369792

So on top of all the crazy things Incineroar already had, it now gets Intimidate to augment its already potent bulk and improve its matchups against other Intimidators and users of EQ and Fighting attacks...Incineroar for A/A+?

I'm tempted for a quick rise from A- to A but hesitant to suggest further than that until we're more familiar with the impact that Incineroar's Intimidate will have.

Also I support Hydreigon from B+ --> B. Unsure about Stakataka dropping and Snorlax rising (tentative yes to both); they may be better now that Intimidate Incineroar can support them well on TR teams.

 

[GraylyHen94]

Played Intimidate™ Incineroar™ today, can confirm that he is quite heat. EVs: 228 HP / 156 Atk / 52 Def / 60 SpD / 12 Spe is the spread that I got from Trainer Tower, good stuff with him. Cycling through Intimidate™ debuffs and Fake Out turns is great, paired him with Landorus for an EQ dodge and to get that Intimidate™ chain going. Still has trouble vs common spread moves but tbh his bulk and the support that he offers is fantastic, really glad that we don't have to use Landorus as one of the very few Intimidate™ users anymore.

 

[cant say]

It hasn't even been a day yet lol. There are a couple events coming up, probably best to see how it performs at those at least before a "quick rise"

 

[Serpens007]

Yeah, it's probably going up, but we will have to see how good it gets. I still think it will be a shake to the meta though. It's a unique pokemon that fits: the bulky fire type archetype, fake out user, typing coverage AND now Intimidate user. There is not other Fire Pokemon that fits that many roles at once (or other pokemon, Imagine a Fake Out AV Landorus lol)

 

[Chasingau]

M-Salamence A -> A-

Mega salamence is obviously a threat to the meta, with intimidate and hyper voice, but as a whole I believe there are better options for everything it can do. With the rise of ice types used to counter lando-t, it takes big damage from other top tier mons like Tapus, t-tar, Metagross(ice punch), and tech ice moves.

Also, intimidate is very common so running a physical set is a little hard. Though a mixed set gives it options, it is weaker in both attack stats. Also special isn’t that good because most moms this season are specially defensive and there is wide guard for hyper voice. Only really good for tailwinds and intimidates = not good enough.

 

[Serpens007]

And Tapu Koko outspeeds and wrecks 0 HP/0SPD M-Salamence. Unless you use a more bulky physical one, but intimidates and the likes... yeah, A-

 

[Serpens007]

So in Uruguay Special Event, we had more Incineroars than Landorus-T https://trainertower.com/uruguay-special-event/

Do you have any other report like this?

 

[Vengeance417]

So in Uruguay Special Event, we had more Incineroars than Landorus-T https://trainertower.com/uruguay-special-event/

Do you have any other report like this?

Awesome! Intimidate Incineroar seems to be doing very well.

 

[Pyritie]

So in Uruguay Special Event, we had more Incineroars than Landorus-T https://trainertower.com/uruguay-special-event/

Do you have any other report like this?

This is just from this past weekend:


I'm going to wait a bit longer for the meta to stabilize before shifting stuff up and down.

 

[Serpens007]

Yes we have to wait and see where it stays. The huge pop is surely something though lol

 

[RAlexa21th]

I think at this point Incineroar is experiencing New Toy Syndrome. Eventually it will drop from top 5 usage.

 

[Eisenherz]

I think at this point Incineroar is experiencing New Toy Syndrome. Eventually it will drop from top 5 usage.

I can agree with the new toy thing, but I doubt it will drop from top 5, it was already on a steady rise in usage without Intimidate, it's genuinely one of the top threats now. Personally, after playing with and against it on PS and on the Battle Spot ladder, I think it's worthy of going up in the VRs.

 

[Serpens007]

https://trainertower.com/2018-buenos-aires-special-event/

New Toy or not, is definitively more viable than before. 7 out of 8 teams on BAs Special Event had it.

 

[Darkmalice]

So in Uruguay Special Event, we had more Incineroars than Landorus-T https://trainertower.com/uruguay-special-event/

Do you have any other report like this?

Gothielle seems to have risen with Incineroar too, suprassing Lando-T's usage in both Uruguay and Buenos in top 8, and reaching 5th in Pyritie's post. All but one of those Gothielle was paired with Incineroar. It's obvious that Fake Out + Intimidate helps Goth set up TR, and Intimidate works well with Shadow Tag. But I was surprised to see such a sudden rise in Goth given that Incineroar also threatens opposing Goth, even accounting for Goth's already rising usage.

 

[Stormbringer221]

I feel like Primarina should be at least somewhere on this tierlist tbh. what with the new HA's being released and whatnot

 

[Serpens007]

I have yet to test Primarina, but I have an eye on it. Where I fail to see how, is compared to Fini as a Water-Fairy pokemon. Water Hyper Voice is better than Muddy Water, It has a higher SpA than Fini at least, but Fini has better defenses, and Misty Terrain + Calm Mind.

 

[Pyritie]

I have yet to test Primarina, but I have an eye on it. Where I fail to see how, is compared to Fini as a Water-Fairy pokemon. Water Hyper Voice is better than Muddy Water, It has a higher SpA than Fini at least, but Fini has better defenses, and Misty Terrain + Calm Mind.

I think primarina will have a niche as a more offensive water/fairy compared to fini's defensiveness/support. Not only does primarina have a stronger and more accurate spread water move now, but it also has a lot more coverage options with things like Energy Ball, Perish Song, Encore, and Shadow Ball.

I think it gives specs fini some serious competition, whose only other selling point is terrain control and better bulk.

 

[Darkmalice]

I feel like Primarina should be at least somewhere on this tierlist tbh. what with the new HA's being released and whatnot

I have yet to test Primarina, but I have an eye on it. Where I fail to see how, is compared to Fini as a Water-Fairy pokemon. Water Hyper Voice is better than Muddy Water, It has a higher SpA than Fini at least, but Fini has better defenses, and Misty Terrain + Calm Mind.

I think primarina will have a niche as a more offensive water/fairy compared to fini's defensiveness/support. Not only does primarina have a stronger and more accurate spread water move now, but it also has a lot more coverage options with things like Energy Ball, Perish Song, Encore, and Shadow Ball.

I think it gives specs fini some serious competition, whose only other selling point is terrain control and better bulk.

Fini also has 25 more base Speed. Even with both usually being uninvested, Fini outspeeds some very common Pokemon like Incineroar, Aegislash and uninvested Ttar. I rather have that Speed + better bulk + Terrain + more unpredictability than an accurate Muddy Water + higher power + Energy Ball. Energy Ball is useful for rain teams and Gastrodon, and Gastrodon usage is on the rise; could fit in on a Specs set. Though it may not be worth the slot over a STAB move and Ice Beam given that Specs Moonblast works fine against most opposing Water-types. I rather use Hydro Pump over Shadow Ball as it hits harder with STAB and has more general use like OHKOing Koko with Specs. Perish Song and Encore are nice support, though generally not as useful as choosing between Taunt, Heal Pulse, Haze, Misty Terrain Swagger, and Soak which can accomplish some of the same goals like punishing set up. Misty Terrain is also increasing in value with Kommo-o's increasing usage.

Primarina could be more useful for Perish Song teams, but it still has to compete with Perish Song Toed and Azumarill, who have better mixed bulk and also have Encore.

 

[DreamPrince]

Fini also has 25 more base Speed. Even with both usually being uninvested, Fini outspeeds some very common Pokemon like Incineroar, Aegislash and uninvested Ttar. I rather have that Speed + better bulk + Terrain + more unpredictability than an accurate Muddy Water + higher power + Energy Ball. Energy Ball is useful for rain teams and Gastrodon, and Gastrodon usage is on the rise; could fit in on a Specs set. Though it may not be worth the slot over a STAB move and Ice Beam given that Specs Moonblast works fine against most opposing Water-types. I rather use Hydro Pump over Shadow Ball as it hits harder with STAB and has more general use like OHKOing Koko with Specs. Perish Song and Encore are nice support, though generally not as useful as choosing between Taunt, Heal Pulse, Haze, Misty Terrain Swagger, and Soak which can accomplish some of the same goals like punishing set up. Misty Terrain is also increasing in value with Kommo-o's increasing usage.

Primarina could be more useful for Perish Song teams, but it still has to compete with Perish Song Toed and Azumarill, who have better mixed bulk and also have Encore.

Primarina has access to encore as well, you know. As well as Psychic, so its not totally walled by Amoonguss and Venusaur. I haven't tested it myself but here are calcs: 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 143-172 (76.4 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( This is without Electric Terrain. )
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 165-195 (113 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 136-162 (93.1 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Primarina Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 142-169 (97.2 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 118-140 (80.8 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile-Mega: 156-184 (99.3 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile-Mega: 136-161 (86.6 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile-Mega: 129-153 (82.1 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 144-169 (77 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Primarina: 157-186 (83.9 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 134-158 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 156-184 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Primarina Oceanic Operetta vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 156-186 (101.9 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Primarina Oceanic Operetta vs. 28 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 159-187 (106.7 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Primarina Oceanic Operetta vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 165-195 (106.4 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Primarina Oceanic Operetta vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile-Mega: 186-219 (118.4 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Pyritie]

252+ SpA Primarina Oceanic Operetta vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 156-186 (101.9 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Primarina Oceanic Operetta vs. 28 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 159-187 (106.7 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Primarina Oceanic Operetta vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 165-195 (106.4 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Primarina Oceanic Operetta vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile-Mega: 186-219 (118.4 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

oceanic operetta is bad because sparkling aria hits your ally