Resource VGC 2018 Viability Rankings

[ck49]

On the topic of Mega-Sceptile. It got T16 at Portland, and I also brought it to Rutgers and got t4 (and went 3-2 at the NJ MSS the previous day). It has a niche in lightningrod, being a grass type that isn't weak to fire, and being really powerful and fast. Also it's one of the few grass types to resist ground (unlike amoonguss, kartana, venusaur, and ferrothorn). There aren't many offensive grass types in the meta right now, and the best one (Kartana) is only an electric resist on a technicality (it gets 2kod by pretty much any thunderbolt).

Oh, and it KOs Tapu Koko unless it's AV. I'd say about a third of the teams I faced this weekend had Koko and only one person brought it to a game. I used it over Mence/Latias (the other fits on my team comp for a mega) because it was a very solid counter to Tapu Koko and check to Tapu Fini.

I'd argue it's a pretty solid C rank pokemon.

edit: That being said: Discharge spam is a bad archtype and quick guard is a bad move. If you're basing your team around Mega-Sceptile, reconsider. I used it because it filled the weaknesses on my team, not as the central Pokemon. It's not a Pokemon you bring to every matchup like most Megas are.

 

[0verloud]

Ok, off topic of sceptile, but, Mudsdale isn't C. Mudsdale shouldn't be ranked, period. Even on TR it just shouldn't exist. Its damage output is weak, and with the rise of more intimidators, milotic to compensate them, not to mention all the stuff that cucked it before, such as Landorus (the better ground type) and fini and basically anything that hits specially. Even verses other TR teams, it sucks, due to the fact anyone still running TR is running P2 and Araquanid, which'll shut it down fast.

Please, garchomp isn't even ranked. I know fini and other fairies are running around along with intimidators, but garchie did just fine in 2017 despite similar threats (granted fini wasn't as popular as it is now).

 

[aasimursu3]

Mega Sceptile does indeed have a few cool tools. It also OHKOs Tapu Fini with Leaf Storm, assuming Fini is not too bulky on special side. That being said, the big issue with it is that it's offensive movepool is atrocious (with Dragon STAB being quite ehh and non-Grass moves being basically limited to HP and unreliable Focus Blast). Like said, it is dependent on matchups. Discharge spam is not really the reason to use it, neither is Quick Guard.

It fills the definition of C, perhaps C-. It has enough big combination of tools that no mon is able to fulfill, therefor it's C/C- IMO, but no higher than that.

Also Garchomp is not THAT bad that it should be unranked, it also should go to C/C-. The speed is the small niche over Lando-T (always outspeeds non-scarf Lele).

 

[Marzbar]

For this Mega Sceptile checking Tapu Fini point that was raised.... depending on the Fini SpA investment, it can actually OHKO Mega Sceptile with Moonblast. And if Fini has managed to get a Calm Mind off, it will guarantee the OHKO on Mega Sceptile and always survive a Leaf Storm. So I'm not convinced. Yet.

 

[Serpens007]

If you want an anti-tapu grass type, why not going for Venusaur ? it is slower, but bulkier and doesn't get wrecked by ice and fairy type attacks.

It is vulnerable to Lele though.

 

[R-B-Y]

If you want an anti-tapu grass type, why not going for Venusaur ? it is slower, but bulkier and doesn't get wrecked by ice and fairy type attacks.

It is vulnerable to Lele though.

Ferrothorn, Kartana, and bulu all do that job better.

 

[ck49]

For this Mega Sceptile checking Tapu Fini point that was raised.... depending on the Fini SpA investment, it can actually OHKO Mega Sceptile with Moonblast. And if Fini has managed to get a Calm Mind off, it will guarantee the OHKO on Mega Sceptile and always survive a Leaf Storm. So I'm not convinced. Yet.

Hence why I didn't mention Fini in my post. Sceptile checks Fini in that Fini can't switch in if it's on the field and they have to call the switch and CM or moonblast to be safe. Even if they do CM if they have taken some damage they're still at risk of getting KO'd. It's not a counter to Fini, but it is a deterrent if you'd rather it not switch in.

If you want an anti-tapu grass type, why not going for Venusaur ? it is slower, but bulkier and doesn't get wrecked by ice and fairy type attacks.

If you're running Sceptile as an anti-tapu pokemon you're putting it in the wrong role. It's anti-tapu koko, but not only in that it can switch in but also because it keeps your teammates safe, so something like fini can set up CM next to it.

Other things it does include outspeeding adamant/modest scarf lando and KOing them with HP ice, and outspeeding and KOing Mence. It also resists ground, which once again, isn't the case for most other grass types.

I think Mega-Venusaur gives it a lot of competition for it's slot but I don't think (at least on my team) Venusaur would have worked as well, and thus I believe Sceptile has a niche on certain teams.

 

[0verloud]

Can we possibly move shuckle to Eevee rank? I think it suits that tier very well because if you somehow set up power swap and TR you're definitely going to "snowball very quickly out of control" as the description for that tier it should be ranked in. Now, I haven't seen shuckle nearly as much as like chansey, but I think we should at least consider it, as it was popular as a good shitpost for a while.

 

[ck49]

Can we possibly move shuckle to Eevee rank? I think it suits that tier very well because if you somehow set up power swap and TR you're definitely going to "snowball very quickly out of control" as the description for that tier it should be ranked in. Now, I haven't seen shuckle nearly as much as like chansey, but I think we should at least consider it, as it was popular as a good shitpost for a while.

The difference is Shuckle is bad and Chansey has several solid finishes at tournaments. The best role for Shuckle is supporting Chansey. Shuckle without Chansey is one dimensional and everyone knows where it's going.

 

[Chasingau]

Just curious, with Incineroar and Landorus being the two best pokemon in the metagame and salamence also being a top tier threat, why isn’t milotic in at least A-

 

[ck49]

Just curious, with Incineroar and Landorus being the two best pokemon in the metagame and salamence also being a top tier threat, why isn’t milotic in at least A-

Fun Fact: In March Milotic had the highest raw usage to 1760 usage ratio on the Showdown VGC ladder among Pokemon in the top 50. In other words, Milotic is the most overrated pokemon. (That was true pre-Incineroar too, btw)

Actual answer to your question: Because Milotic isn't that good. It's viable, but it's not a counter to Incineroar and Landorus. It is a deterrent to those Pokemon, but not a counter. It doesn't do too much damage even at +1 and if you try to EV it to do damage it loses the one thing it's good at: being bulky. Wolfe explains why Milo fits on his team really well in his Charlotte team report - it works on that team because of toxic aegislash, grassy terrain to improve healing, the fact that he uses it for speed control, and the fact that he has multiple Pokemon to KO Koko and grass types.

Milotic has a niche, but it's not much better than it was pre-incineroar and is still worse than all the Pokemon in A- right now.

 

[Serpens007]

Yes, Milotic rose in usage, in PGL stats too, but if it's a good pokemon or not, really depends on the team. It's not a safe bet as most A pokemon.

Also, the battle between Incineroar and Landorus for the top spot is fun. Incineroar is back at N°1 lol

Also, Mimikyu rose, politoed droped, Gengar and Kommo rose again, Charizard dropped a bit, Kang is back at top-30

 

[aasimursu3]

I don't think that TTar (and its mega) should be A+. It's a great mon obviously, but it really doesn't fit there with Lando-T / Incineroar / Koko / Fini, or "the top 4". It isnt really as meta defining as those. Lele, Cress etc. are all at A, while being higher on usage than TTar. TTar gets cucked by 3 of the 4 most used mons (Incineroar threatens TTar only if it runs Low Kick, though, which many of them do). Drop it to A.

I would probably argue Mega Metagross being dropped to A as well, just so that A+ is formed with "the top 4", which are all similar in a way that they are generally very easy to slap onto most teams. Mega Metagross isn't as slappable, and not to mention that it kinda gets wrecked by Incineroar. However, it is really powerful and scary mon, so keeping it as A+ is alright to me.

 

[ck49]

I don't think that TTar (and its mega) should be A+. It's a great mon obviously, but it really doesn't fit there with Lando-T / Incineroar / Koko / Fini, or "the top 4". It isnt really as meta defining as those. Lele, Cress etc. are all at A, while being higher on usage than TTar. TTar gets cucked by 3 of the 4 most used mons (Incineroar threatens TTar only if it runs Low Kick, though, which many of them do). Drop it to A.

I would probably argue Mega Metagross being dropped to A as well, just so that A+ is formed with "the top 4", which are all similar in a way that they are generally very easy to slap onto most teams. Mega Metagross isn't as slappable, and not to mention that it kinda gets wrecked by Incineroar. However, it is really powerful and scary mon, so keeping it as A+ is alright to me.

Agree on TTar, disagree on Metagross.

Metagross is easily the most splashable Mega and a ton of the meta revolves around beating it. It can, at worst, 2KO everything at A- or better except for p2 and Cress. It also has very good bulk. It's "counters" get 2ko'd and don't outspeed it. If you can make the right calls with metagross it's almost impossible to stop. It's pretty clearly in a tier above Char Y, Mence, and TTar.

 

[Marzbar]

Agree on TTar, disagree on Metagross.

Metagross is easily the most splashable Mega and a ton of the meta revolves around beating it. It can, at worst, 2KO everything at A- or better except for p2 and Cress. It also has very good bulk. It's "counters" get 2ko'd and don't outspeed it. If you can make the right calls with metagross it's almost impossible to stop. It's pretty clearly in a tier above Char Y, Mence, and TTar.

My thoughts also, for both mons in question.

 

[R-B-Y]

Agree on TTar, disagree on Metagross.

Metagross is easily the most splashable Mega and a ton of the meta revolves around beating it. It can, at worst, 2KO everything at A- or better except for p2 and Cress. It also has very good bulk. It's "counters" get 2ko'd and don't outspeed it. If you can make the right calls with metagross it's almost impossible to stop. It's pretty clearly in a tier above Char Y, Mence, and TTar.

Heck yes. M-meta is immune to intimidate, and it deals with fire types EASILY provided a bit of prior damage. Even incineroar, theoretically the most solid “counter” to mega meta, has to think to go up against a skilled mega meta user, otherwise a stomping tantrum suddenly ends half your hp switching in.
Throw psychic terrain in and landorus has a hard time too.

 

[Darkmalice]

Bisharp just won Latin America Internationals, and there was another Bisharp in top 8. Given its success following Incineroar's Intimidate, and the discussion points on it previously since it was removed from the viability ranking list (1-3 pages back), it needs to be reintroduced in the rankings. As opposed to before when I felt C+, I actually feel B rank is better for it, since the description and its success seems to fit it better. It's definitely doing better than all the Pokemon in B-.

Move Araquanid up to B+. It's been consistently doing well and is part of a very common pair with Porygon2 and very common team archetype usually consisting of Araq/Pory2/Incineroar/Koko/Gross/Bulu, with some variations in the Bulu slot. Araquanid fairs well against many relevant Pokemon, including both the two main Intimidate users.

Mega Ven has also seen success recently. I'd move it up to B rank. It's taking advantage of the bulkier metagame and the development of the Araq archetype, both as a replacement for Bulu and as a check to it. Plus B- rank is quite overcrowded, and its seen more success recently than the rest of B-.

 

[Serpens007]

Yep, we were wrong people, we were wrong about Bisharp

 

[20mtrebu]

Adding to this I think that Mega Scizor should get a spot in the viability rankings, we saw how well it did in the Latin American nationals and it is a good mon that works well with rain.

 

[Carbonific]

I agree with adding Mega Scizor; I meant to post about it earlier. In addition to its strength in rain, it also functions well with a Tapu Fini/Zapdos/Landorus-T core, as it aids defensive switch-ins through resistances to Ice- and Grass-type moves, and can more easily Swords Dance with assistance from Intimidate, Misty Terrain + Heal Pulse, Tailwind etc... B-/C+ feels about right for it. It requires a lot of support, but gives a lot back in return.

 

[Eisenherz]

Bisharp just won Latin America Internationals, and there was another Bisharp in top 2.

Just a small correction, there was another Bisharp in top 8, but it lost in quarterfinals, top 2 didn't have another.

I agree about ranking it, though!

I also think Araquanid should be B+, it's been doing consistently well at events ever since Intimiroar has been there.

 

[Darkmalice]

Agree with Mega Scizor.

I'm tempted for C+ currently. Mainly since it requires considerable support, which is particularly notable for a Pokemon that uses the mega slot and needs a free turn for Swords Dance before it can get going.

I don't think that TTar (and its mega) should be A+. It's a great mon obviously, but it really doesn't fit there with Lando-T / Incineroar / Koko / Fini, or "the top 4". It isnt really as meta defining as those. Lele, Cress etc. are all at A, while being higher on usage than TTar. TTar gets cucked by 3 of the 4 most used mons (Incineroar threatens TTar only if it runs Low Kick, though, which many of them do). Drop it to A.

I would probably argue Mega Metagross being dropped to A as well, just so that A+ is formed with "the top 4", which are all similar in a way that they are generally very easy to slap onto most teams. Mega Metagross isn't as slappable, and not to mention that it kinda gets wrecked by Incineroar. However, it is really powerful and scary mon, so keeping it as A+ is alright to me.

Also agreeing with a drop to Ttar and Mega Ttar. But not to A; I feel they belong in A-.

Ttar was at its Prime with the edu archetype, where it was most successful. That's been gradually fading away since Intimidate Incineroar's appearance. Incineroar fairs well against said archetype as it checks many of its members. Incineroar takes up some of Ttar's niches form being a slow bulky Dark-type. It can check Ghost-types more reliably than Ttar (immune to MGengar's WoW, resist's Aegislash Flash Cannon), and it checks TR better thanks to Fake Out and Knock Off for the two main TR users (Cress and Porygon2). It fairs better at checking the offensive Psychic-types (MGross and Lele - better to be weak against Stomping Trantum than IronHhead against MGross, and it's not weak to Moonblast). Incineroar has decreased Ttar's usefulness from weakening the edu archetype and also fulfilling many of Ttar's niches whilst being more splashable on teams and providing more general utility. Incineroar is also a Ttar check if it has Low Kick, and has been actually taking up Ttar's slot in the current metagame's edu teams.

Compared to the other pokemon in the A subranks, it seems to be performing on the lower end of the scale and doing worse than most of the Pokemon, even many of those in the A- rank.

 

[Darkmalice]

On second thoughts, I do feel Mega Scizor could be B- instead of C+. It's getting better success than the Pokemon in C+, and whilst it requires a team built around it, it puts in work, much like Kommo-O, and there is some team variety with using it. A Mega Scizor team with Arcanine and Dragonite just top cut Toronto.

Speaking of Toronto, I feel Braviary and Virizion should move to C+. They've top cut a few tournaments and a relevant. Braviary is an alternate but viable anti-Intimidate Pokemon to Milotic and Bisharp and fairs well against Incineroar. Virizion fits in well as a FWG core with Fini and Incineroar, serving the Grass-type role of Water-types including Fini (it has the speed and special bulk to get the upper hand against), and works well as a way to fit Fighting-type coverage into a team in a metagame that is hard to fit Fighting-types into. It's also a Grass-type that's makes Incineroar sweat.

Marowak-A should move down to C. Haven't seen it in a while and for good reason. It faces competition from Incineroar who provides similar Fire/Dark coverage to Fire/Ghost, but provides better general support and bulk, and performs much better outside of TR. As a Lightning Rod user, Raichu 1st and Togeradmu 2nd are outperforming it who are both in B-. Losing to Incineroar also sucks.

On that note, I'd move Raichu up to B. Has been surprisingly successful lately and the most successful Lightning Rod user. Tapu Koko is on the rise and is well-checked by Raichu. Being a faster Fake Out user than Incineroar is great.

Also can we have a viability rank update please? It's been over a month since the last one, and much has been discussed since. Happy for my recent posts to not be considered Pyritie if you want more discussion on them first.

 

[MQJinx]

Not nominating anything, but bringing up some Pokemon for discussion.

Gengar-Mega: Should it move up?

Nihilego: Should it move up?

Celesteela: Should it move down?

 

[Pyritie]

Also can we have a viability rank update please? It's been over a month since the last one, and much has been discussed since. Happy for my recent posts to not be considered Pyritie if you want more discussion on them first.

Sorry guys, I haven't had the time or interest to keep this thread updated recently. I'm currently in the process of seeing if it can be transferred to someone else without having to create a new thread.