Announcement VGC Classics PL - Format Discussion / Polling

VGC Classics PL interest!

  • I want to play!

    Votes: 33 80.5%

  • I want to manage!

    Votes: 3 7.3%

  • I want to watch

    Votes: 5 12.2%
  • Total voters
    41
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Sapphire

Sapphire

dOPMPPmPEpyPXBb0AfgujOjNXj61kcyy
is a Community Leader
VGC Leader
[oh right I need to get a logo for this now]​
With the popularity of current-gen team tours around the VGC Community, SmogonVGC is deciding to switch out VGC Winter League in exchange for VGC Classics PL, a team tour fully/primarily centralized around legacy formats. Currently I'm looking at:
  • 6 teams of 6/8 slots depending on interest
  • x1 VGC 22
  • x1 VGC 2019 Ultra (gentleman's to Sun/Moon)
  • x1 VGC 2018
  • x1 VGC 2017
  • x1 VGC 2015
  • x1 VGC 2013
  • x2 [unsure as of now]
I wouldn't really consider myself a Legacy VGC player myself so
please let me know what formats you would all find the most popular and enjoyable below!​

  • 100k draft with 8/11 min players depending on slot count
  • 2 managers per team. You can self-buy one playing manager for 20k
  • 2 points for win, 1 point for tie, 0 points for loss
  • Trades can happen but only before Week 1 begins
Proposed Schedule

Manager Signups: Aug 28 - Sep 3
Player Signups: Sep 4 - Sep 15
Draft: sometime Sep 16-17
Week 1: Sep 18 - Sep 24
Week 2: Sep 25 - Oct 1
Week 3: Oct 2 - Oct 8
Week 4: Oct 9 - Oct 15
Week 5: Oct 16 - Oct 22
Semis: Oct 23 - Nov 5
Playoffs: Nov 6 ->
Please let us know any ideas, concerns, proposals, thoughts for VGC Classics PL! Manager signups and Commencement thread will release on Aug 28 assuming everything is covered!
Live discussion happens in the SmogonVGC Discord
You can also DM me any ideas/concerns on Discord! (Eeveon7♪#6561)
 
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Rotation slots are pretty bad imo, we do them as a cope in PL but this tour has the room to give everything a slot. In my eyes, the following 4 formats should be considered locked into the tournament.

VGC 22

This one is very obvious I'd hope. Our most recent "oldgen format", and with the format being left off on a very optimized worlds I think there are at least 6 people who would be eager to revisit this one.

VGC 17, 18, 19

These three formats have been given a pretty good deal of prestige, in some way being included in every smogVGC tour besides VGC winter league last year. Everyone loves gen 7 and these formats will easily be the most in demand in the tournament.

Here are the other formats I would like to see included in the tour.

VGC 15

15 is a very fondly remembered format by a lot of the community's older members. It was a slot people (hi kaori) liked playing when it was included in Winter League 1, and is very storied and competitive.

VGC 13

This is very likely going to be a format populated by people curious about the meta as opposed to veterans, but I think 13 is really cool, probably the only super viable format we could include without a gimmick.

So in six slots this gives at least one format from the 4 most recent oldgens, and 6 of the 8 metas played at worlds in the past 10 years.

If we expand to eight slots, here are some slots I'd like to see

VGC 23 Series 1

Everyone talks about Series 1 like it was a tragedy, gone too soon but never forgotten. I think this is the only format I'd really care to include in this tour: didn't have a supermajor (IC/Worlds) in its format like the other 3 gen 9 metas, and having a gen 9 meta in the first place gives the tour some accessibility to new players.

VGC 14

One of the two missing worlds metas. 14 was also a format that saw a ton of optimization post worlds, but most of those games were played at unstreamed regionals in the fall of 2014. A mega format without 600 BST friends sounds pretty fun to work with.

And that would be my preferred lineup of 8. As for why I wouldn't want to see other formats...

VGC 16

We already have two GS Cup metas going by the above proposal, this one is easily the most hated and I can't name 6 people who would rather play this over either another gen 6 format or another GS cup.

VGC 20/21

Pretty fake formats imo since they never had a world championship and players cup just isn't worthy of the same respect. These formats were on rotation in VGCPL, that's plenty for this year imo.

BDSP/Spikemuth/Any other SWSH Series

Speaking of fake formats....

VGC 2012 and earlier

Technically 2012 does have resources from early nugget bridge, but 13 is just a cooler version of 12. Nothing older than that looks fun to play and has very little resources available.

Reg B/Reg C

Too fresh & had plenty of events to play.


I swear to god if the host team picks any obvious comanagers that are just trying to cheat the self buy system im gonna lose it. thanks eeveeon and co this tour looks very exciting :3
 
opinions from someone who will see classics pl as their personal super bowl and as someone whos managed and played in too many vgc team tours in their life:

- 6 teams 6 slots is great, although i think we could potentially get away with 8 slots if more ppl sign up than i personally expect, i think this is my proposed 6 slot format:
  • x1 VGC 22
  • x1 Gen 8 Rotating slot between S3, S5, S9
  • x1 VGC 19 Ultra
  • x1 VGC 18
  • x1 VGC 17
  • x1 "other" rotating slot (VGC 19 sun series, VGC 15, VGC 13)
- i think 22, 19, 18, and 17 all need to be included as dedicated slots. They are the last 4 worlds formats and I fully believe the gen 7 formats have a large enough interest base to warrant it. I'm not a fan of the gen 8 formats but I think they have a material player base and would be a good way to balance rosters so its not all just older players (that said i know nothing abt these formats and with full bias i would not include them if this was my tour but i think it makes sense). With these 5 and a few formats left I think a rotating slot of more niche formats makes sense. My picks are 19 sun series, 15, and 13. 15 and 13 have pretty fervent fanbases and are great choices to represent gen 6 and gen 5 imo (i had more fun prepping for and playing 15 for wwt finals this year than any other team tour set I've played in a long time). VGC 19 sun series may be an odd choice here (didn't have a worlds) but i think its a really unique representation of vgc gameplay since its only irl tournament format we've played since gen 5 with no gimmicky mechanic and there are more than enough sun series enthusiasts out there that teams will have no issue fielding someone once every 3 weeks (note: players should be allowed to agree to play moon series in this slot)

- if we get enough for 8 slots i think this is my look:
  • x1 VGC 22
  • x1 VGC 19 Ultra
  • x1 VGC 18
  • x1 VGC 17
  • x1 VGC 15
  • x1 VGC 13
  • x1 modern rotating slot Gen 8 S3, Gen 8 S5, Gen 8 S9
  • x1 old gen rotating slot VGC 19 sun series, VGC 16, VGC 14

edit: what does "2 managers per team, with 1 manager self buy for 20k" mean? can one or both managers play? was a bit confused by the wording
 
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I only really have an interest in playing Gen 6, so I'd like to advocate for, at minimum, one slot of some Gen 6 format. I really wanna play 2014 personally, but 2015 obviously has the most popularity. A 14/15/16 Bo3 slot could be really fun to cover all the Gen 6 formats, but if nothing else 15 should have its own slot.
 
I agree with zee's post about 2013 - I'm no veteran, but I'd sign up exclusively to play this format. I love BW DOU, and I'm dying for a chance to play 2013 in a competitive environment since I missed out. Even if I didn't get to play it, I'd still watch all the games because it's super cool. I think you could even generate a good bit of outside interest from the other BW DOU enjoyers too if you were somehow lacking for players for this slot.
 
Imo:
  • x1 VGC 22
  • x1 Gen 8 Series 7/9
  • x1 Gen 8 Series 5
  • x1 Gen 7 VGC 19 Ultra
  • x1 Gen 7 rotating slot between VGC 17, VGC 18,
  • x1 Gen 6 slot

or

  • x1 VGC 22
  • x1 Gen 8 Rotating slot between S5 and S9
  • x1 Gen 7 VGC 19 Ultra
  • x1 Gen 7 VGC 18
  • x1 Gen 7 VGC 17
  • x1 Gen 6 slot
 
RE: Gen 8
Do not forget about Series 1-4 please, those are the ones we had irl tours on. They are somewhat similar until they added DLC mons and stuff so something like Series 3 is a good pick (should clarifyif pre or post bank).
An entire slot dedicated to S12 is wack but fair since it lasted long.
The only real series post DLC are S5 S7 and S12.
 
Gonna pretty much echo Yuree Stephen's sentiment. VGC 22, 19U, 18, 17 are must includes.

I think 15 is probably the premier gen 6 format. I think personally its one of my favorite formats to play despite not going to events at that time. VGC16 is pretty much universally hated by people who didn't catch stockholm syndrome and 14 feels un-developed and volatile. I would strongly prefer a static 15 slot to a rotating gen 6 slot.

I know a lot of people stopped playing during COVID but I think its also worth revisiting those formats. Its basically a whole two years of VGC. Outside of exactly series 9 there's still room for development in some of them due to either our lack of understanding of dynamax (s3) or lack of time playing it and relatively small playerbase (s3, 5, 11). I think s11 is the worst format we've had since vgc16 and s3 and 5 are the two most fun dmax formats, but I know some people are also partial to s9. I think a rotating VGC20 slot with Series 3, 5, and 9 is a fantastic idea.

I haven't played VGC 13 but to me it falls under the unexplored category. I can appreciate the appeal of playing it even though its not something I've tried or would seek out. On a tangent, I'd love to see a big (swiss) VGC 13 tournament with prizing to generate interest and development in the format instead of a one-off 1 week slot where people dont have time or resources to commit to learning it. While VGC 13 and 14 seem to play very differently, I think they appeal to the same group of people and could be put into one rotating slot.

I think 8 slots is probably necessary and interest would increase given the opportunity to play people's favorite formats. I just named 7 formats, reducing that to 6 could be done in a couple ways. One way is cutting 13/14. The other is lumping 17 and 18 since I think there are very few people who played one and not the other.

And needless to say (sempra) we ditch vgc 16 that format blows.
 
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I think with six slots I’m a big proponent of 1x of 22, 19 (ultra but if people wanna gentlemen’s smth else that’s fine), 18, 17, 15, and 13 is pretty reasonable.

With 8 I’d do those 6 + 2 rotating of whatever seems to be the most popular option. Imo 23 S1 & Gen 8 (20/21) are the most accessible, and I think 11/12/14/16 are all either too hated or too obscure for most people signing up to play unless you manage to find several (12+) people that have been playing for over a decade now that will sign up (don’t think this is very likely).

also ck49 did you really just call Stephen, Yuree lmao
 
super biased, but I think all the gen 7 worlds formats are worth including as permanent slots. I would like to see 2014 (did I ever mention I like mawile) but 2015 has more precedent in these tours. additionally series 12 was the longest running gen 8 format and a worlds format, it definitely deserves a permanent slot in this tour. personally I would like to see some gen 5 representation however I understand if that is not realistic.

the only other gen 8 formats that even deserve consideration are the ones we played at live events like Dallas and Collinsville.

do not add bdsp or spikemuth :worrywhirl:
 
ck49 said:
Gonna pretty much echo Yuree Stephen's sentiment. VGC 22, 19U, 18, 17 are must includes.

I think 15 is probably the premier gen 6 format. I think personally its one of my favorite formats to play despite not going to events at that time. VGC16 is pretty much universally hated by people who didn't catch stockholm syndrome and 14 feels un-developed and volatile. I would strongly prefer a static 15 slot to a rotating gen 6 slot.

I know a lot of people stopped playing during COVID but I think its also worth revisiting those formats. Its basically a whole two years of VGC. Outside of exactly series 9 there's still room for development in some of them due to either our lack of understanding of dynamax (s3) or lack of time playing it and relatively small playerbase (s3, 5, 11). I think s11 is the worst format we've had since vgc16 and s3 and 5 are the two most fun dmax formats, but I know some people are also partial to s9. I think a rotating VGC20 slot with Series 3, 5, and 9 is a fantastic idea.

I haven't played VGC 13 but to me it falls under the unexplored category. I can appreciate the appeal of playing it even though its not something I've tried or would seek out. On a tangent, I'd love to see a big (swiss) VGC 13 tournament with prizing to generate interest and development in the format instead of a one-off 1 week slot where people dont have time or resources to commit to learning it. While VGC 13 and 14 seem to play very differently, I think they appeal to the same group of people and could be put into one rotating slot.

I think 8 slots is probably necessary and interest would increase given the opportunity to play people's favorite formats. I just named 7 formats, reducing that to 6 could be done in a couple ways. One way is cutting 13/14. The other is lumping 17 and 18 since I think there are very few people who played one and not the other.

And needless to say (sempra) we ditch vgc 16 that format blows.
Click to expand...

I think we're in a good agreement here. Love the point of including Gen 8 S3 in some capacity. Agreed that 15 feels like the preferred gen 6 format and if we do 8 slots i agree a static 15 slot makes more sense than forcing ppl to play 16. I'm also a bit on the outside for 13 but think its best pre 2015 format and probably the best gen 5 format if one cared about representing the older gens like that. I edited my post a bit for what i think 8 slots should look like after reading this and the above comments.
 
Dawg said:
btw can we just not include dynamax (this wasn't real pokemon)
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tyo said:
i agree with duckpond lets do all gen 8
  • x1 S12
  • x1 S10
  • x1 S9
  • x1 S5
  • x1 S3
  • x1 S1
:blobthumbsup:
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tyo S10 is fake Gen 8, S13 is where its at

On a more real note I'm officially bumping it up to 8 format slots for 6 teams! Also we won't be doing any rotation slots bc those especially suck in a 5 week regular season. Hopefully that helps with our discussion :)
 
ok for real if there's no rotation, i would want something like this

  • x1 Gen 8 S12
  • x1 Gen 8 S9
  • x1 Gen 8 S3
  • x1 VGC 17
  • x1 VGC 18
  • x1 VGC 19
  • x1 VGC 15
  • x1 VGC 13
a huge number of players who sign up for team tours and actually get drafted are really experienced in gen 8 and a lot have also started during then too. for me its a no brainer to have 3 slots dedicated to the generation with the biggest player base in team tournaments. i don't like the idea of including SV slots since accessibility to new players does not really matter when they would probably not get drafted anyway. 17/18/19 definitely have to be in and older formats than that I am indifferent but it seems like 15 and 13 are popular. i included S9 specifically because that format in particular had a lot of tournaments: players cup, victory road circuit, and japan nationals as well. people are definitely well versed in that format and its very popular among gen 8 enjoyers particularly among the asian player base since i know for a fact that national dex is the most popular format in japan. so in my ideal format list we would have regional dex/national dex/ and GS cup for gen 8
 
tyo said:
ok for real if there's no rotation, i would want something like this

  • x1 Gen 8 S12
  • x1 Gen 8 S9
  • x1 Gen 8 S3
  • x1 VGC 17
  • x1 VGC 18
  • x1 VGC 19
  • x1 VGC 15
  • x1 VGC 13
a huge number of players who sign up for team tours and actually get drafted are really experienced in gen 8 and a lot have also started during then too. for me its a no brainer to have 3 slots dedicated to the generation with the biggest player base in team tournaments. i don't like the idea of including SV slots since accessibility to new players does not really matter when they would probably not get drafted anyway. 17/18/19 definitely have to be in and older formats than that I am indifferent but it seems like 15 and 13 are popular. i included S9 specifically because that format in particular had a lot of tournaments: players cup, victory road circuit, and japan nationals as well. people are definitely well versed in that format and its very popular among gen 8 enjoyers particularly among the asian player base since i know for a fact that national dex is the most popular format in japan. so in my ideal format list we would have regional dex/national dex/ and GS cup for gen 8
Click to expand...

As much as I despise S9 and the entire 2021 year, this makes sense to me, I'd take this distribution.
 
I feel that by having set slots, formats that people are interested in will inevitably be left out. This tour is supposed to be an opportunity for people to play old formats they love, or try formats that they were not around for. For that reason, I think it is important to try and cover all the significant formats.

My suggestion is to rotate generations each week. When a generation is in rotation, all of its primary formats are given slots. Since there are 5 weeks, with 5 gens in the pool, you can rotate 2 generations each week and have each gen be played twice. It would look something like this:
Week 1: BW +XY
Week 2: XY + SM
Week 3: SM + SS
Week 4: SS + ??
Week 5: ?? + BW

This gives us 6 slots per week, but since it is currently proposed to be 8v8, you can give each team a 'choice' slot where they choose any legal format they would like. Under my proposed methodology, any given week would look like:
Week 2: XY + SM (rotation formats during said week)
XY VGC 2014
XY VGC 2015
XY VGC 2016
SM VGC 2017
SM VGC 2018
SM VGC 2019
<Team 1 Choice (any)>
<Team 2 Choice (any)>
This works out for playoffs too as picking advantage can be given to the higher seed, or if playoffs is 7v7 then high seed gets the 'choice' slot.

This allows for every major format to be played at least twice, and for popular formats to be played more often (through choice). It also accommodates people who are only interested in regional dex formats by giving them two slots to choose from per week (same with those primarily interested in national or restricted dex formats).

This needs 5 generations to work, and only 4 are obvious inclusions (BW, XY, SM, and SS). I would propose that SV is the 5th generation, with the slots being regs A, B, and C. These formats will likely see little-to-no serious play in the future and many have enjoyed them greatly. Legacy tours will focus on reg D as it was the worlds format, when regs A, B, and C were more relevant to most of the playerbase through the 2023 season. It would be nice to have easily accessible formats included in the tour for newer players who are joining looking to try stuff they missed out on, making the tour more inclusive and familiar to them while keeping the spirit of celebrating legacy VGC.

This formatting makes the most sense to me given that PL rotates in the most popular legacy formats. There are also other grassroots that run dedicated legacy slots. To me this best fits what 'Classics PL' aims to accomplish and gives it the most identity.
 
I think 16 is only something people will suggest playing as a meme tbh. Like in general it seems so uncompetitive I can't imagine anybody signing up to take a 16 slot ever. I also think rotation slots are less preferable to static ones so I'd prefer just dropping unpopular formats if anything, rather than scrambling to fit stuff like VGC16 and VGC14 for its own sake.
 
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