VGC15 General Metagame Discussion

[ethan06]

I have Volc on my main VGC lineup and I'm finding it really fantastic, actually. Bug and Fire, as attacking types, have a couple of common resistances but it's nonetheless got fantastic neutral coverage in this meta, giving you a solid option for Kangaskhan (forcing it to burn itself with Rage Powder is the most satisfying thing), Bisharp, Amoonguss, Aegislash, Cresselia... it has a good matchup against pretty much everything except for Rock Slide spam, which can be fixed in a fairly straightforward way with Wide Guard. Of course, it's frail as hell, very Heatran weak and pretty much requires Focus Sash in order to avoid going down straight away to a super-effective move, but the amount of support it can provide with a combination of offensive pressure and redirection mindgames is really impressive imo. Not for every team but it's a great pick for most that need a Fire-type. Best played with Heat Wave and Bug Buzz.

 

[nightwolf]

(forcing it to burn itself with Rage Powder is the most satisfying thing)

THIS is the biggest thing I dislike about your whole post. If you're using rage powder for the sake of keeping m-kang in check then why not use amoongus who has much more bulk and doesn't need support to be good?

 

[Heliosan]

THIS is the biggest thing I dislike about your whole post. If you're using rage powder for the sake of keeping m-kang in check then why not use amoongus who has much more bulk and doesn't need support to be good?

Amoonguss doesn't really carry the offensive presence that Volcarona has. It's a choice you have to make in terms of whether to have a more offensive support option or a fully dedicated support option. It works on different teams. I think Amoonguss does fit on more teams than Volcarona does for a Rage Powder option, but I wouldn't say that for every team out there.

 

[megacrazyhand]

THIS is the biggest thing I dislike about your whole post. If you're using rage powder for the sake of keeping m-kang in check then why not use amoongus who has much more bulk and doesn't need support to be good?

I know I'm not timely on this, but the poster you are quoting does point out that it also helps keep Bisharp, Amoongus, Aegislash and Cress in check while providing offensive pressure. It's not entiely accurate to say that he is using Rage Powder solely to keep M-Kang in check, just that its satisfying to force the burn hax on it.

That said, to add to the conversation, I have yet to use Volcarona but what I notice while facing it is that Tran can keep it in check easily. If you can get around Tran it should be able to poke a hole in the opponent's team.

 

[nightwolf]

Too many moaning about an ACCIDENTAL OVERSIGHT so my calcs were removed

 

[DaAwesomeDude1]

Correct me if i'm wrong but what i believe that Heliosan said was that one reason to use Volcarona over Amoonguss on certain teams is for its offensive presence, not that Volcarona is better than Amoonguss because Amoonguss doesn't have offensive presence. Also relying on your partner to do all the damage while Amoonguss sits there and Rage Powders isn't the best plan considering that even though it is bulky, it will get worn out by the next turn and you're pretty much putting yourself at a 1v2 situation (also double targeting moves). Plus, just because a pokemon has offensive presence doesn't mean it shouldn't carry support moves like Rage Powder (that'd be like not running spore on Breloom cause its solely an attacker). Just a little nickpick on those calcs, Amoonguss usually carries Sitrus Berry in terms of recovery (lefties/black sludge is usually a backup item if you've already used your sitrus) and Bisharp is usually running Life Orb and knock off as well. Also Talonflames usually carry Life Orb/CB as the item so:
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 229-273 (103.6 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sorry for playing Devil's Advocate lol

 

[nightwolf]

Correct me if i'm wrong but what i believe that Heliosan said was that one reason to use Volcarona over Amoonguss on certain teams is for its offensive presence, not that Volcarona is better than Amoonguss because Amoonguss doesn't have offensive presence. Also relying on your partner to do all the damage while Amoonguss sits there and Rage Powders isn't the best plan considering that even though it is bulky, it will get worn out by the next turn and you're pretty much putting yourself at a 1v2 situation (also double targeting moves).

Plenty of people have made the 3 attackers 1 support team work perfectly well with the support doing negligent damage. Just look at Sejun Parks team, the only "serious" damage move pachirisu had was super fang that did 50% of a mon's current hp. it's only other move was nuzzle with an awe inspiring 10 base damage. He used follow me and nuzzle more than he did using super fang while letting garchomp do his thing.

just because a pokemon has offensive presence doesn't mean it shouldn't carry support moves like Rage Powder (that'd be like not running spore on Breloom cause its solely an attacker).

Just because a pokemon has support type moves in its move pool doesn't mean it should carry said support moves though. I think very few pokemon really carry support moves on offensive sets, talonflame with quick guard/tailwind is one of them.

 

[DaAwesomeDude1]

Plenty of people have made the 3 attackers 1 support team work perfectly well with the support doing negligent damage. Just look at Sejun Parks team, the only "serious" damage move pachirisu had was super fang that did 50% of a mon's current hp. it's only other move was nuzzle with an awe inspiring 10 base damage. He used follow me and nuzzle more than he did using super fang while letting garchomp do his thing.

Just because a pokemon has support type moves in its move pool doesn't mean it should carry said support moves though. I think very few pokemon really carry support moves on offensive sets, talonflame with wideguard/tailwind is one of them.

Regarding the first statement, i never said that having a full supporter was bad, i was saying spamming Rage Powder while your teammate does all the damage was bad. Part of the reason why I think Pachi did so well was because no one knew what it did, iirc it might've topped a regional at one point but i don't remember which. Plus Sejun didn't spam Follow Me while Gyarados attacked. Regarding your second statement, yes while i do agree with it, Volcarona SHOULD run support moves even if its bulk isn't the best. Offensive supporters are a thing and most of the time, you only need to buy one turn with redirection not constantly rely on it redirecting moves. Flame Body in conjunction with Rage Powder gives it a chance to cripple physical attackers. Fire/Bug is also a pretty decent offensive typing allowing it to check many steel types as well as pokemon like Hydreigon and Cress. Fire is also one of the better defensive typings this year cause it resists fairy, ice and steel types. What i'm trying to say is that, they both are good options for support on a team, Volcarona is just a bit more niche; not that one is better than the other.

EDIT: sorry another nitpick but Talon gets QUICK guard not wide guard. (Wide Guard talon would be so good HNGGG)

 

[nightwolf]

EDIT: sorry another nitpick but Talon gets QUICK guard not wide guard. (Wide Guard talon would be so good HNGGG)

e.e that was posted while half awake. i fixed, though if that pleases you mister "nitpicker"

 

[DaAwesomeDude1]

e.e that was posted while half awake. i fixed, though if that pleases you mister "nitpicker"

Habit from the CT room lol :^)

 

[Synral]

252+ Atk Leftovers Defiant Bisharp Night Slash vs. 252 HP/184 Def Leftovers Effect Spore Amoonguss: 67 - 81 (30.3 - 36.7%) -- 57.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers
252+ Atk Leftovers Defiant Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP/184 Def Leftovers Effect Spore Amoonguss: 78 - 93 (35.3 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers

night slash is used on 0.3% of bisharp in battle spot doubles
leftovers is in the 'other' category of items which comprise 0.5% of bisharps (61.3% of bisharps run life orb, and 33.1% run focus sash, you aren't seeing leftovers)

black/sludge leftovers also only comprise a whopping 16% of amoonguss, the primary item being the rocky helmet, used by 67.3% of them

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 101-121 (45.7 - 54.7%) -- 50.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 122-146 (55.2 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

amoonguss can live one attack from bisharp, but it's a -very- shaky check

 

[nightwolf]

night slash is used on 0.3% of bisharp in battle spot doubles
leftovers is in the 'other' category of items which comprise 0.5% of bisharps (61.3% of bisharps run life orb, and 33.1% run focus sash, you aren't seeing leftovers)

black/sludge leftovers also only comprise a whopping 16% of amoonguss, the primary item being the rocky helmet, used by 67.3% of them

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 101-121 (45.7 - 54.7%) -- 50.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 122-146 (55.2 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

amoonguss can live one attack from bisharp, but it's a -very- shaky check

The item was an accidental oversight, SUE ME. -_- and yeah, lets just accept battle spot as the end all be all of validating arguments, "derp, this is used by less than 1% of battle spot doubles so nobody is going to run it and thus your calc is incorrect"

 

[Mymble]

Amoongus doesn't really need the offensive presence that volvarona offers, it's a support mon that lets the partner do the damage while it soaks up the damage that was intended for it. And if you're using volcarona for damage then there shouldn't even be a reason on carrying rage powder as it isn't bulky enough to be double focused.


Except that amoongus can "keep" bisharp, aegislash, and the absolute power house that is cress in check.

252+ Atk Leftovers Defiant Bisharp Night Slash vs. 252 HP/184 Def Leftovers Effect Spore Amoonguss: 67 - 81 (30.3 - 36.7%) -- 57.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers
252+ Atk Leftovers Defiant Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP/184 Def Leftovers Effect Spore Amoonguss: 78 - 93 (35.3 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers

252+ SpAtk Leftovers Stance Change Aegislash-B Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP/72+ SpDef Leftovers Effect Spore Amoonguss: 84 - 100 (38 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers
252+ SpAtk Leftovers Stance Change Aegislash-B Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP/72+ SpDef Leftovers Effect Spore Amoonguss: 84 - 100 (38 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers
4 Atk Leftovers Stance Change Aegislash-B Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP/184 Def Leftovers Effect Spore Amoonguss: 25 - 30 (11.3 - 13.6%) -- 59.7% chance to 8HKO after Leftovers
4 Atk Leftovers Stance Change Aegislash-B Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP/184 Def Leftovers Effect Spore Amoonguss: 34 - 42 (15.4 - 19%) -- 92.3% chance to 6HKO after Leftovers

44 SpAtk Levitate Cresselia Icy Wind vs. 252 HP/72+ SpDef Leftovers Effect Spore Amoonguss: 36 - 44 (16.3 - 19.9%) -- 100% chance to 6HKO after Leftovers
44 SpAtk Levitate Cresselia Psyshock vs. 252 HP/184 Def Leftovers Effect Spore Amoonguss: 84 - 98 (38 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers

Also one REALLY big thing you might want to consider as well would be how well amoongus takes hits from talonflame over volcarona

252+ Atk Flame Body Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP/184 Def Effect Spore Amoonguss: 176 - 210 (79.6 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Flame Body Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP/136+ Def Flame Body Volcarona: 176 - 210 (92.1 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

(above is a spread used for bulky quiver dance sets)

Leftovers on Bisharp makes zero sense, I don't say this to be rude, it's just that Bisharp doesn't have the bulk to make Leftovers a worthwhile investment. It will die in like two neutral hits regardless, Focus Sash guarantees it an attack, Life Orb boosts its power. Night Slash is garbage compared to Knock Off, Knock Off removes important single use items like berries and is also stronger, so...

252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 180 Def Amoonguss: 229-273 (103.6 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Amoonguss can't take hits from Talonflame. Volcarona has no business having anything to do with Talonflame it can't hit it offensively, and amoonguss can't do much either. Having either of these Pokemon in on Talonflame is pretty dire. Having less than 50% chance to live a BB from full is so ridiculous a situation to bank on it isn't worth listing. Amoonguss absolutely can not check Aegislash, Cresselia, or Bisharp being able to take hits is meaning less when you can't do shit back. In a 1v1 situation Amoonguss loses to all three, creating a 2v2 situation isn't ideal is it can be created to biased to either of our arguments. Just as a side note claiming amoonguss doesn't need and offensive presence is only half true, if it weren't for STAB Grass-type coverage Amoonguss would lose a lot of usage because it wouldn't be able to check Water-types or rain nearly as well. Amoonguss in a lot of match-ups isn't going to bring anything offensive to the table, but it can in important ways for certain match-ups. Volcarona is far more niche in its use of Rage Powder, it has got decent special bulk and Flame Body isn't reliable but useful. Volcarona is used for its offensive presence as well as being able to redirect important hits, even if that means being a martyr.

An argument shouldn't be based around usage stats, as better sets aren't always the most used ones, but here the most used sets are being used that way for a reason.

tl;dr: Volcarona is more niche than amoonguss, but has a serious offensive presence that lets it better check certain Pokemon. Also Leftovers and Night Slash are bad on Bisharp; LO, Focus Sash, and Knock Off all actually serve a purpose worth running them for.

 

[nightwolf]

Leftovers on Bisharp makes zero sense, I don't say this to be rude, it's just that Bisharp doesn't have the bulk to make Leftovers a worthwhile investment. It will die in like two neutral hits regardless, Focus Sash guarantees it an attack, Life Orb boosts its power. Night Slash is garbage compared to Knock Off, Knock Off removes important single use items like berries and is also stronger, so...

tl;dr:... Also Leftovers and Night Slash are bad on Bisharp; LO, Focus Sash, and Knock Off all actually serve a purpose worth running them for

See above statement as to why it says leftovers. Get off my damn back with "blah blah blah leftovers bisharp makes zero sense blah blah blah." And I used nightslash as that's a move suggested on the VGC build on the strategy dex.

 

[Mymble]

See above statement as to why it says leftovers. Get off my damn back with "blah blah blah leftovers bisharp makes zero sense blah blah blah." And I used nightslash as that's a move suggested on the VGC build on the strategy dex.

Knock Off is legal now, it didn't used to be.

 

[Synral]

battle spot is generally more representative of what you would see in a tournament than showdown is; I'm not saying that no bisharp in the history of time will ever run lefties in VGC, but its statistically unlikely and life orb, sash, lum berry, and dread plate are all just better options

also smogons strategy Dex for VGC really is lacking, but that's neither here nor there

 

[DaAwesomeDude1]

Not to be rude or anything and i didn't mean to start this argument but the reason why I am so nitpicky over the calcs was because that was the entire basis of your argument. Your calcs were your evidence and missing an important item/move like Life Orb and Knock Off is very crucial as those moves boost attacks and can make a huge difference. I understand that mistakes happen but i don't want someone who is just getting into VGC to see those calcs and think that lefties night slash bisharp is good. Again sorry if i came off as rude and i didn't mean to start this argument. And yeah the smogon calculator has quite a few spreads/moves that aren't updated so it isn't too reliable.

 

[nightwolf]

Knock Off is legal now, it didn't used to be.

I never said it wasn't legal, All I said was that night slash is one of the suggested moves in the '14 VGC set.

I'm not saying that no bisharp in the history of time will ever run lefties in VGC, but its statistically unlikely and life orb, sash, lum berry, and dread plate are all just better options

Wasn't really arguing FOR the use of leftovers, as I've two times already and probably will keep on saying until people gtfo my calc ACCIDENTALLY having leftovers. What I was arguing was that because less than 0.3% of bisharps on doubles has night slash doesn't mean that it won't show up at all. someone might run it over swords dance (which is a very distinct possibility as people annoyingly keep bringing up it's fraility when talking about my ACCIDENTAL use of leftovers on my calcs)

 

[Chipndip]

I never said it wasn't legal, All I said was that night slash is one of the suggested moves in the '14 VGC set.


Wasn't really arguing FOR the use of leftovers, as I've two times already and probably will keep on saying until people gtfo my calc ACCIDENTALLY having leftovers. What I was arguing was that because less than 0.3% of bisharps on doubles has night slash doesn't mean that it won't show up at all. someone might run it over swords dance (which is a very distinct possibility as people annoyingly keep bringing up it's fraility when talking about my ACCIDENTAL use of leftovers on my calcs)

The reason why it's in the VGC 14 set is because Knock Off wasn't legal. 2 Knock Off attempts vs. 2 Night Slash attempts, and Knock Off does more damage every time since its first hit has a 50% boost, while Night Slash only has 5 base power over a non-boosted Knock Off.

Side note: Just drop the lefties thing. If you screwed up, you did, but that's basically it. No need to harp on it and bring it back up. Also, Sword Dance is a very rare move as well. Most Bisharp (including my own) run Sucker, Knock Off, Iron Head, Protect. Only thing I did different myself was use Black Glasses.

 

[nightwolf]

Side note: Just drop the lefties thing. If you screwed up, you did, but that's basically it. No need to harp on it and bring it back up.

UH.................................. I'm not the one that's harping on it, look at the comments above, I'm having to explain it every single time that it was set that way by accident and every time someone keeps saying "why do you have leftovers when ___________ is so much better?"

I'd love to move on from it but people want to talk about it

 

[Laurel]

Contrary Serperior and Sheer Force Gatr in Rain? Anyone think these will be relevant.

 

[nightwolf]

Contrary Serperior and Sheer Force Gatr in Rain? Anyone think these will be relevant.

Depends on serperior but I do think Gatr will get picked up by players in need of a physical attacker

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 108 HP/104 Def Intimidate Landorus-T: 177 - 213 (99.4 - 119.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

That's the minimum investment lando-t needs to not be a guaranteed OHKO

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Contrary Serperior and Sheer Force Gatr in Rain? Anyone think these will be relevant.

Serperior, probably not. Its just too weak initially, and takes a long time to set up. Its also spamming the worst offensive type in the game with Leaf Storm. About the only thing I'd use it for is Glare+Swagger spam and a Role Play Mega Latias partner or something that can be actually scary with Contrary. Talonflame's just going to shit on it anyway, along with every Flying/Fire/Steel/Poison/Bug/Grass type in VGC. So yeah, offensively, Serperior is kind of a joke. Supportively, it might be worth a damn just to spam Glare, and a Role Play/Skill Swap potential.

'Gatr on the other hand, offers some very serious power and doesn't eat a Mega slot or require any setup really. Speed's a bit awkward but the natural physical bulk, priority, power, usable movepool, and pure Water typing don't leave a whole lot to desire. If I wasn't such a Drought maniac I'd give my favorite starter ever his own team. Its a good physical attacker that's worth considering, though it is quite vulnerable to WoW/Intimidate.

Typhlosion, though, seems iffy. Obviously, Scarf+FF+STAB Eruption hurts - add in Sun and you'd better pray you have Wide Guard and Heatran. On the other hand, most WoW users (Rotom-W, Arcanine, Talonflame) pose quite a threat to Typhlosion, and it does have a rather pitiful movepool beyond Eruption. It's something to consider though, even if it needs quite a bit of support.

Meganium is an awesome healer and cleric, one of the very few things to get Heal Pulse + reliable recovery + Aromatherapy/Heal Bell, and is actually one of the better picks for that role, but Leaf Guard really does absolutely fucking nothing for it, just like every other pokemon to get the ability, so I don't see that becoming relevant. Add in the handicap of pure Grass typing, second only to Ice in terms of sheer weaknesses and minimal benefits, and our poor healy dinosaur is still as derp as ever ._.

 

[Synral]

speaking of newly released pokemon with their HAs, choice band tyrantrum's head smash 2KOs cresselia of all things; and while it isn't particularly fast, it does outspeed bisharp by a point without having to go jolly

what are everyone's thoughts on the big dino?

 

[leremyju]

Hehe then I'll use jolly Bisharp to outspeed your tyrantrum. Anyways, Tyrantrum would be very cool to try out in a tailwind team to fix its average speed. Rock STAB is decently good to spam, and it has coverage like fire fang, superpower, and earthquake