Victreebel (GP 2/2)

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
QC 3/3 (PK Gaming, Snunch, Chou Toshio)

GP 1/2 (Fatecrashers)

OK I know quite a few of you are thinking "WTF sun is terrible." And you know what, you may well be right. However, I think that few of you would deny that sun is at the very least powerful, threatening, even if you may be able to defeat it yourself. I would hope in addition whoever in QC is looking at this can comment on the viability of sun in general – I'd really rather not see someone wasting their time on shiftry, for example, only to have it rejected. Anyway, if this is approved, I will make it quite clear in the writeup that using a sun team is risky business.

To prove just how powerful Victreebel is in the sun, I'm going to give lots of calcs. Some of these might go into the analysis, at QCs discretion. 172/140+ +2 Life Orb Victreebel in the sun:

Weather Ball vs 252/0 Hitmontop : 106.6% - 125.7%
Weather Ball vs 252/0 Zapdos: 100% - 117.7%
HP Rock vs 252/0 Arcanine: 103.1% - 121.9% (Espeed comes nowhere near an OHKO on Vicreebel)
Leaf Blade vs 252/252+ +1 Chansey: 58% - 68.3%
Leaf Blade vs 252/252+ Milotic: 130.3% - 154.2%
HP Fire vs 252/0 Celebi (obviously Weather Ball OHKOes comfortably): 122.3% - 144.1%
HP Fire vs 252/252+ Roserade: 106.9% - 126.3%
Weather Ball vs 252/0 Mew: 87.4% - 103%
HP Rock vs 4/0 Victini: 96.5% - 114%
Leaf Blade vs 252/0 Empoleon (obviously Power Whip OHKOes comfortably): 92.2% - 108.9%
Power Whip vs 252/0 Deoxys-D: 89.1% - 105.6% (Most of the time deoxys will take an attack, do nothing and die)
Leaf Blade vs 252/0 Raikou : 101.6% - 119.5%
Weather Ball vs 252/252+ Registeel: 104.4% - 123.1%
Leaf Blade vs 4/0 Kingdra: 110.3% - 129.8%
Weather Ball vs 252/0 Nidoqueen: 104.9% - 123.7%
Weather Ball vs 252/0 Togekiss: 83.7% - 98.7% (OHKO with SR)

Some relevant calcs at +0:

Leaf Blade vs 4/0 Flygon: 61.8% - 72.8%
HP Fire vs 252/252+ Abomasnow: 103.1% - 121.9%
4/0 Mamoswine is OHKOed by HP Fire and Leaf Blade.

And if you max attack:

252+ Power Whip vs 4/0 Flygon: 96% - 113.6%
+2 252+ Power Whip vs 252/252+ +1 Chansey: 90.5% - 106.5%


Conclusion to calcs – basically at +2 in the Sun victreebel KOes every common Pokemon in UU. Those Pokemon that can kill victreebel (e.g Jolly Scarf Flygon, Mamoswine) first risk being OHKOed, or at least heavily damaged, on the switch.

[Overview]

<p>Victreebel is, and always has been, one of the most powerful sun sweepers in the game. It has probably the best mixed offensive spread of any Chlorophyll user, setting it apart from the likes of Sawsbuck, Shiftry, and Tangrowth. With access to the newly buffed Growth, excellent moves such as Power Whip and Weather Ball, and with the latest, most powerful Chlorophyll user, Venusaur, now in OU, Victreebel has become an even better choice for your UU sun team. However, as always, Victreebel is held back by its frailty, as well as by the fact that the aforementioned excellent moves are illegal together. On top of this, sun teams themselves are hardly reliable, with weather changers such as Abomasnow and Hippopotas messing them up, and competition from the arguably more powerful rain teams. However, don't let this make you think that Victreebel is not a threat—take Victreebel lightly and you could quickly find your team in tatters.</p>

[SET]
name: Mixed Sun Sweeper
move 1: Growth
move 2: Leaf Blade / Power Whip
move 3: Weather Ball / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Sludge Bomb / Sleep Powder
item: Life Orb
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Rash
evs: 172 Atk / 140 SpA / 196 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>After a Growth in the sun, Victreebel is almost unstoppable, hitting 578 Attack, 596 Special Attack, and 450 Speed. At this point, Victreebel will come out on top against virtually every Pokemon in UU. However, getting to this position is hardly easy—Victreebel is terribly frail, making it hard to set up a Growth, and 8 turns of sun can vanish surprisingly fast. Nonetheless, Victreebel has excellent coverage, better than that of almost any Chlorophyll Pokemon. Though Leaf Blade is the main STAB move, Weather Ball, which works out to be more powerful in the sun, is what really sets this apart, OHKOing common Pokemon such as 252/0 Hitmontop and Zapdos after a Growth. Sludge Bomb provides neutral coverage against Fire- and Flying-type opponents, including Arcanine and Victini, as well as Abomasnow; boosted by STAB, this also gives you a great special option outside of the sun. As for other options, you may run Power Whip over Leaf Blade; the increase in power is significant, but legality issues then plague Victreebel. Weather Ball, normally Victreebel's most powerful move, is illegal alongside Power Whip, forcing you to run Hidden Power Fire. However, you do gain advantage against some of Victreebel's checks; for example, with max Attack Victreebel can OHKO Jolly Scarf Flygon on the switch and OHKO Chansey after using Growth. In the fourth slot, Sleep Powder provides an excellent alternative if you are not already using sleep moves elsewhere on your team. It can potentially cripple a counter to Victreebel, while allowing it to set up a Growth uninhibited. It is worth remembering, however, that Tangrowth, though a lot slower, can probably use Power Whip / Hidden Power Fire / Sleep Powder to greater effect.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The spread on this set is fairly flexible; the Speed EVs let Victreebel outrun neutral +1 base 100 Speed Pokemon, as well as max Speed Choice Scarf Rotom-A, in the sun. The Attack and Special Attack EVs give a fairly even split between Victreebel's offensive stats. If you choose to use Power Whip, you probably want to capitalize more on Attack; for instance, if you maximize Victreebel's Attack, it can OHKO Flygon on the switch, and OHKO Chansey with a +2 Power Whip after Stealth Rock damage. If you want superior overall power though, stick with Leaf Blade and Weather Ball. The nature can also be changed; currently the nature lowers Special Defense largely because most priority moves are physical, but Victreebel can set up on Special Attacks better with a Mild nature if you prefer. You can also use a Naive or Hasty nature, allowing Victreebel to outrun +1 positive-natured base 100s, but the power drop is very noticeable. As far as alternative moves go, you might consider Hidden Power in the fourth slot; Hidden Power Rock hits Fire- and Flying-types super effectively, while Hidden Power Ice hits Dragon-types. However, these moves are weaker when super effective than a neutral Weather Ball, and only slightly more powerful than a neutral Sludge Bomb. Sunny Day is not recommended, as Victreebel is too frail to set it up.</p>

<p>When looking for teammates, sun support should be considered over everything else. Generally, bulky Pokemon carrying Heat Rock should be used; ideally they should also benefit somehow from the sun. Fire-types and other Chlorophyll Pokemon are obvious examples. Additionally, you should also be looking to aid Victreebel in setting up. Uxie, for example, can set up sun and then offer a free switch in and setup with Memento. Otherwise, Stealth Rock is important to Victreebel too, as it does have some issues with Fire- and Flying-type Pokemon, as well as Abomasnow. Uxie is an excellent user here too.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Victreebel is quite capable of running a pure physical or special set, utilizing Swords Dance or Growth, without the need to split EVs. However, even with the splitting of EVs Victreebel rarely falls short of a KO that it might otherwise achieve. The only advantage really is that Victreebel may invest somewhat in bulk, without a defense-lowering nature, to aid in setting up. As far as other move options go, there are a few; notably, there are several special Grass-type moves. SolarBeam is probably the best, offering excellent power – with Team Preview the rare Abomasnow and Hippopotas switch-ins can be predicted and dealt with. Energy Ball and Grass Knot will work out much weaker on average. On the physical side, Return and Sucker Punch provide the only notable coverage moves, Sucker Punch being somewhat effective but inconveniently illegal with Power Whip and Weather Ball. Victreebel also has a considerable support movepool that it cannot make use of due to its frailty, including Teeter Dance, Stun Spore, Knock Off, and Synthesis. Similarly, it could act as something of a sun supporter with Sunny Day and a Heat Rock, but altogether this is best left to bulkier Chlorophyll Pokemon such as Tangrowth and Exeggutor.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Countering Victreebel, though extremely difficult, is something you should rarely have to do. Victreebel relies on two things; the ability to use Growth once, and the weather being sunny. The latter can be circumvented with your own weather changer. If it does manage to use Growth, your options are few: Fire-types resist Victreebel's staple moves, but most of them will fall to Sludge Bomb or Hidden Power Rock after a Growth. Abomasnow is a decent check, as it can switch into Growth, Leaf Blade, or Weather Ball, changing the weather. This lets it outrun Victreebel if it has a Speed-boosting nature or a Choice Scarf, and OHKO with Blizzard. Otherwise, you should either be looking towards extremely bulky Pokemon or revenge killing. Pokemon such as Chansey, Deoxys-D, Dusclops, and Cresselia can all take a +2 hit, though most of them will do little back besides perhaps stalling out sun or paralysing Victreebel. Snorlax deserves mention in that it can take any move besides +2 Power Whip; however, it also fails to KO Victreebel in return. With regard to revenge killing, priority moves are a decent option; Ice Shard users such as Mamoswine and Weavile destroy Victreebel, and ExtremeSpeed users such as Arcanine can dent Victreebel considerably. Fast Choice Scarf users—positive base 90s and up—can revenge kill Victreebel, though many, including Flygon and Zapdos, will need a Fire-type move to OHKO outright.</p>
 

breh

強いだね
when you mention sun pokes, mention memento uxie. all of those really nice calcs start with +2 and memento is a perfect way to get it.

Also, realistically, nobody will switch mamoswine into victreebel; that's just really ballsy.

mention knock off in the last slot? you say it has chansey issues so why not fix them?
 

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
I'll mention Uxie, as well as the general idea that it encompasses.

I do not intend to mention mamoswine switching in in the analysis. I was just making that absolutely clear in the calcs, which are meant to be fairly exhaustive.

As for knock off, I can't see that working really. Victreebel puts a huge dent into Chansey as it is, leaving it about as crippled as it would be if hit by knock off. I'll add an OO mention.
 

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
Sorry to bump this, but it would be good If I could get some QC and write this before I have to go away for a few days.

I also fixed a couple of calcs (where the numbers were too low actually).

edit: thanks Snunch.
 

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
Thanks Chou.

And ok AG.

edit: written. Any opinion on whether some calcs should go in? If so, which ones?
 
For calcs Mention priority vs victreebel... Ie entei with choice band using extreme speed, or more imPortantly sucker punch from life orb honchkrow and ice shard from leftovers Mamoswine.

How much does sucker punch do to some threats? Like xatu whom can block sleep powder, resist leaf blade, and usually invests in special defense and can pack a light screen. It Using psychoschock or psychic can damage victreebel.
 

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
Farewell said:
Mention priority vs victrebel... Ie entei with choice band using extreme speed, or more imPortantly sucker punch from life orb honchkrow and ice shard from leftovers mamoswine.
If you had read Checks and Counters, you would have seen that I already mentioned priority, specifically Ice Shard and ExtremeSpeed. Also, CB Entei and leftovers Mamoswine do 73% max. Life Orb Mamoswine is way better anyway. I might be persuaded to mention Honchkrow, because it can take a +0 Leaf Blade, and threatens to OHKO with Brave Bird or Sucker Punch.

edit: In light of some calcs such as the above I may consider toning down my comments as to how frail Victreebel is. It is certainly passable.
 

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
Apologies for this: despite this already having been through QC and already having been written, I am strongly considering giving Sludge Bomb the primary slash, and relegating HP Rock to AC. STAB Sludge bomb has a cool 135 Base Power, only ever so slightly less than a super effective HP Rock. It does only slightly less, therefore, to the likes of Victini, Rotom-H, Altaria and Arcanine. It is only really likely to cost you if you get caught at +0 in the sun against Moltres or Charizard, without SR up. In return, you get an attack that does not conflict with HP Fire, and a powerful STAB Special attack that does not rely in any way on weather. This attack will also slam some unusual checks like Abomasnow, Emboar, Thick Fat Miltank, Alomomola, and Druddigon (and other pure dragons like eviolite shelgon lol) effectively. Do not forget that this move also packs a relevant, and fairly likely, added effect which may help break through a wall or something as well.

edit: oh and sorry for the double post.

edit2: OK Moo I'll make sure that I mention those things. Also I am in very little doubt myself now as to the superiority of Sludge Bomb; I just need the official go-ahead from a QC member.
 

Moo

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Sludge Bomb is pretty cool, and I don't think HP Rock is absolutely necessary, but give it a mention somewhere if you get rid of it for Sludge Bomb

No mention of Swords Dance? or Heat Rock + Sunny Day?
 

PK Gaming

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Oh absolutely change HP Rock to Sludge Bomb. Its 5BP weaker, but its a more reliable STAB move and you can smash opposing grass types outside of sun. Unless that 5bp comes with any extra KOs I don't think it should even get an AC mention period.
 

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
OK cool thanks again PK. I'll just change a few things and then it'll be ready for GP. I will leave HP Rock in AC because those KOs are at times marginal (some of the fire types have fairly flexible spreads so it might just matter).

If you were curious, the reason I put HP rock is because for some reason I thought Poison was NVE vs Fire. That's what comes from poison attacks being rare.

edit- this is ready for checks again.
 

Fatecrashers

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GP CHECK ONE



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[Overview]

<p>Victreebel is, and always has been, one of the most powerful sun sweepers in the game. It has probably the best mixed offensive spread of any Chlorophyll user, setting it apart from the competition, which includes Sawsbuck, Shiftry, and Tangrowth. With access to the newly buffed Growth, excellent moves such as Power Whip and Weather Ball, and with the latest, most powerful Chlorophyll user, Venusaur, in OU, Victreebel has become an even better choice for your UU sun team. However, as always, Victreebel is held back by its frailty, as well as by the fact that the aforementioned excellent moves are illegal together. On top of this, sun teams themselves are hardly reliable, with weather changers such as Abomasnow and Hippopotas messing them up, and with competition from the arguably more powerful rain teams to compete with. However, don't let this make you think that Victreebel is not a threat—take dealing with Victreebel lightly and you could quickly find your team in tatters.</p>

[SET]
name: Mixed Sun Sweeper
move 1: Growth
move 2: Leaf Blade / Power Whip
move 3: Weather Ball / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Sludge Bomb / Sleep Powder
item: Life Orb
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Rash
evs: 172 Atk / 140 SpA / 196 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>After a Growth in the sun, Victreebel is almost unstoppable, hitting 578 Attack, 596 Special Attack, and 450 Speed. At this point, Victreebel will come out on top against virtually every Pokemon in UU. However, getting to this position is hardly easy—Victreebel is terribly frail, making it hard to set up a Growth, and 8 turns of sun can vanish surprisingly fast. Nonetheless, Victreebel has excellent coverage, better than that of almost any Chlorophyll Pokemon. Though Leaf Blade is the main STAB move, Weather Ball, which works out to be more powerful in the sun, is what really sets this apart, OHKOing common Pokemon such as 252/0 Hitmontop and Zapdos after a Growth. Sludge Bomb provides neutral coverage against Fire- and Flying-type opponents, including Arcanine and Victini, and against Abomasnow, which is neutral to Weather Ball in hail. Boosted by STAB, this also gives you a great special option outside of the sun. As for other options, you may run Power Whip over Leaf Blade; the increase in power is significant, but it is legality issues that then plague Victreebel. Weather Ball, normally Victreebel's most powerful move, is illegal alongside Power Whip, forcing you to run Hidden Power Fire. Altogether, though, you do gain advantage against some of Victreebel's checks, such as Chansey and postive-natured Scarf Flygon, which is OHKOed on the switch if you maximise Victreebel's Attack. In the fourth slot, Sleep Powder provides an excellent alternative if you are not already using sleep moves elsewhere on your team. It can potentially cripple a counter to Victreebel, while allowing it to set up a Growth uninhibited. It is worth remembering, however, that Tangrowth, though a lot slower, can probably use Power Whip / Hidden Power Fire / Sleep Powder to greater effect.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The spread on this set is fairly flexible; at current, the Speed EVs let Victreebel outrun neutral +1 base 100s, as well as max Speed Scarf Rotom-A, in the sun. Otherwise they The Attack and Special Attack EVs provided give a fairly even split between Victreebel's offensive stats. If you choose to use Power Whip, you probably want to capitalize by focusing more on Attack; for instance, if you maximize Victreebel's Attack, it can OHKO Flygon on the switch, and OHKO Chansey with a +2 Power Whip after Stealth Rock damage. If you want superior overall power though, stick with Leaf Blade and Weather Ball. The nature can also be changed; currently the nature lowers Special Defense largely because most priority moves are physical, but Victreebel can set up on Special Attacks better with a Mild nature if you prefer. You can also use a Naive or Hasty nature, allowing Victreebel to outrun +1 positive-natured base 100s, but the power drop is very noticeable. As far as alternative moves go, you might consider Hidden Power in the fourth slot; Hidden Power Rock hits Fire- and Flying-types super effectively, and while Hidden Power Ice hits Dragon-types. However, these moves are weaker when super effective than a neutral Weather Ball, and only slightly more powerful than a neutral Sludge Bomb. Sunny Day is not recommended, since Victreebel is too frail to set it up.</p>

<p>When looking for teammates, sun support should be considered over everything else. Generally, bulky Pokemon carrying Heat Rock should be used; ideally they should also benefit somehow from the sun. Fire-types and other Chlorophyll Pokemon are obvious examples. Additionally, you should also be looking to aid Victreebel in setting up. Uxie, for example, can set up sun and then offer a free switch in and setup with Memento. Otherwise, Stealth Rock is important to Victreebel too, as it does have some issues with Fire- and Flying-type Pokemon, as well as Abomasnow. Uxie is an excellent user here too.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Victreebel is quite capable of running a pure physical or special set, utilizing Swords Dance or Growth, without the need to split EVs. However, even with the splitting of EVs Victreebel rarely falls short of a KO that it might otherwise achieve. The only advantage really is that Victreebel may invest somewhat in bulk, without a defense-lowering nature, to aid in setting up. As far as other move options go, there are a few; notably, there are several special Grass-type moves. SolarBeam is probably the best, offering excellent power – with Team Preview the rare Abomasnow and Hippopotas switch-ins can be predicted and dealt with. Energy Ball and Grass Knot will work out much weaker on average. On the physical side, Return and Sucker Punch provide the only notable coverage moves, Sucker Punch being somewhat effective but inconveniently illegal with Power Whip and Weather Ball. Victreebel also has a considerable support movepool that it is cannot make use of due to its frailty, including Teeter Dance, Stun Spore, Knock Off, and Synthesis. Similarly, it could act as something of a sun supporter with Sunny Day and a Heat Rock, but altogether this is best left to bulkier Chlorophyll Pokemon such as Tangrowth and Exeggutor.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Countering Victreebel, though extremely difficult, is something you should rarely have to do. Victreebel relies totally on sun, which can be removed by your own weather changer, and the ability to get a Growth in. If it does manage to do this, your options are few: Fire-types resist Victreebel's staple moves, but most of them will fall to Sludge Bomb or Hidden Power Rock after a Growth. Abomasnow is a decent check, as it can switch into Growth, Leaf Blade, or Weather Ball, changing the weather. This lets it outrun Victreebel if it has a Speed-boosting nature or a Choice Scarf, and OHKO with Blizzard. Otherwise, you should either be looking to extremely bulky Pokemon or revenge killing. Pokemon such as Chansey, Deoxys-D, Dusclops, and Cresselia can all take a +2 hit, though most of them will do little back besides perhaps stalling out sun or paralysing Victreebel. Snorlax deserves mention in that it can take any move besides +2 Power Whip; however, it also fails to KO Victreebel in return. With regard to revenge killing, priority moves are a decent option; Ice Shard users such as Mamoswine and Weavile destroy Victreebel, and ExtremeSpeed users such as Arcanine can dent Victreebel considerably. Fast Scarfers, positive base 90s and up, can revenge kill Victreebel, though many, including Flygon and Zapdos, will need a Fire-type move to OHKO outright.</p>v


 

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
Thanks Fate.

It seems like my spell-check wasn't working properly - I could swear I set it to US English.
 

Zystral

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[Overview]

<p>Victreebel iwas, and always has beenstill is, one of the most powerful sun sweepers in the game. It has probably the best mixed offensive spread of any Chlorophyll user, setting it apart from the competition, which includesthe likes of Sawsbuck, Shiftry, and Tangrowth. With access to the newly buffed Growth, excellent moves such as Power Whip and Weather Ball, and with the latest, most powerful Chlorophyll user, Venusaur, now in OU, Victreebel has become an even better choice for your UU sun team. However, as always, Victreebel is held back by its frailty, as well as by the fact that the aforementioned excellent moves are illegal together. On top of this, sun teams themselves are hardly reliable, with weather changers such as Abomasnow and Hippopotas messing them up, and with competition from the arguably more powerful rain teams. However, don't let this make you think that Victreebel is not a threat—take Victreebel lightly and you could quickly find your team in tatters.</p>

[SET]
name: Mixed Sun Sweeper
move 1: Growth
move 2: Leaf Blade / Power Whip
move 3: Weather Ball / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Sludge Bomb / Sleep Powder
item: Life Orb
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Rash
evs: 172 Atk / 140 SpA / 196 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>After a Growth in the sun, Victreebel is almost unstoppable, hitting 578 Attack, 596 Special Attack, and 450 Speed. At this point, Victreebel will come out on top against virtually every Pokemon in UU. However, getting to this position is hardly easy—Victreebel is terribly frail, making it hard to uset up a a single Growth, and 8 turns of sun can vanish surprisingly fast. Nonetheless, Victreebel has excellent coverage, better than that of almost any Chlorophyll Pokemon. Though Leaf Blade is the main STAB move, Weather Ball, which works out to be more powerful in the sun, is what really sets this apart, OHKOing common Pokemon such as 252/0 Hitmontop and Zapdos after a Growth. Sludge Bomb provides neutral coverage against Fire- and Flying-type opponents, including Arcanine and Victini, and againsts well as Abomasnow; boosted by STAB, this also gives you a great special option outside of the sun. As for other options, you may run Power Whip over Leaf Blade; the increase in power is significant, but it isthe legality issues that thenare what plague Victreebel. Weather Ball, normally Victreebel's most powerful move, is illegal alongside Power Whip, forcing you to run Hidden Power Fire. Altogether, thoughHowever, you do gain advantage against some of Victreebel's checks, such as Chansey and postive-natured Scarf Flygon, which is; both are OHKOed on the switch if you maximise Victreebel's Attack. In the fourth slot, Sleep Powder provides an excellent alternative if you are not already using sleep moves elsewhere on your team. It can potentially cripple a counter to Victreebel, while allowing it to set up a Growth uninhibited. It is worth remembering, however, that Tangrowth, though a lot slower, can probably use Power Whip / Hidden Power Fire / Sleep Powder to greater effect.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The spread on this set is fairly flexible; the Speed EVs let Victreebel outrun neutral +1 base 100s Speed Pokemon, as well as max Speed Choice Scarf Rotom-A, in the sun. The Attack and Special Attack EVs give a fairly even split between Victreebel's offensive stats. If you choose to use Power Whip, you probably want to capitalize more on Attack; for instance, if you maximize Victreebel's Attack, it can OHKO Flygon on the switch, and OHKO Chansey with a +2 Power Whip after Stealth Rock damage. If you want superior overall power though, stick with Leaf Blade and Weather Ball. The nature can also be changed; currently the nature lowers Special Defense largely because most priority moves are physical, but Victreebel can set up on Special Attacks better with a Mild nature if you prefer. You can also use a Naive or Hasty nature, allowing Victreebel to outrun +1 positive-natured base 100s, but the power drop is very noticeable. As far as alternative moves go, you might consider Hidden Power in the fourth slot; Hidden Power Rock hits Fire- and Flying-types super effectively, while Hidden Power Ice hits Dragon-types. However, these moves are weaker when super effective than a neutral Weather Ball, and only slightly more powerful than a neutral Sludge Bomb. Sunny Day is not recommended, sinceas Victreebel is too frail to set it up.</p>

<p>When looking for teammates, sun support should be considered over everything else. Generally, bulky Pokemon carrying Heat Rock should be used; ideally they should also benefit somehow from the sun. Fire-types and other Chlorophyll Pokemon are obvious examples. Additionally, you should also be looking to aid Victreebel in setting up. Uxie, for example, can set up sun and then offer a free switch in and setup with Memento. Otherwise, Stealth Rock is important to Victreebel too, as it does have some issues with Fire- and Flying-type Pokemon, as well as Abomasnow. Uxie is an excellent user here too.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Victreebel is quite capable of running a pure physical or special set, utilizing Swords Dance or Growth, without the need to split EVs. However, even with the splitting of EVs Victreebel rarely falls short of a KO that it might otherwise achieve. The only advantage really is that Victreebel may invest somewhat in bulk, without a defense-lowering nature, to aid in setting up. As far as other move options go, there are a few; notably, there are several special Grass-type moves. SolarBeam is probably the best, offering excellent power – with Team Preview the rare Abomasnow and Hippopotas switch-ins can be predicted and dealt with. Energy Ball and Grass Knot will work out much weaker on average. On the physical side, Return and Sucker Punch provide the only notable coverage moves, Sucker Punch being somewhat effective but inconveniently illegal with Power Whip and Weather Ball. Victreebel also has a considerable support movepool that it cannot make use of due to its frailty, including Teeter Dance, Stun Spore, Knock Off, and Synthesis. Similarly, it could act as something of a sun supporter with Sunny Day and a Heat Rock, but altogether this is best left to bulkier Chlorophyll Pokemon such as Tangrowth and Exeggutor.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Countering Victreebel, though extremely difficult, is something you should rarely have to do. Victreebel relies totally on sun, which can be removed by your own weather changer, and the ability to get a Growth inon two things; the ability to use Growth once, and the weather being sunny. The latter can be circumvented with your own weather changer. If it does manage to do thisuse Growth, your options are few: Fire-types resist Victreebel's staple moves, but most of them will fall to Sludge Bomb or Hidden Power Rock after a Growth. Abomasnow is a decent check, as it can switch into Growth, Leaf Blade, or Weather Ball, changing the weather. This lets it outrun Victreebel if it has a Speed-boosting nature or a Choice Scarf, and OHKO with Blizzard. Otherwise, you should either be looking towards extremely bulky Pokemon or revenge killing. Pokemon such as Chansey, Deoxys-D, Dusclops, and Cresselia can all take a +2 hit, though most of them will do little back besides perhaps stalling out sun or paralysing Victreebel. Snorlax deserves mention in that it can take any move besides +2 Power Whip; however, it also fails to KO Victreebel in return. With regard to revenge killing, priority moves are a decent option; Ice Shard users such as Mamoswine and Weavile destroy Victreebel, and ExtremeSpeed users such as Arcanine can dent Victreebel considerably. Fast Scarfers,Choice Scarf Users and positive base 90s and up, can revenge kill Victreebel, though many, including Flygon and Zapdos, will need a Fire-type move to OHKO outright.</p>
 

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
Thanks Zystral. I made most of those changes, and discussed the others on IRC.
 

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