Metagame Views From The Council

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While I would not like to see my beloved Kingambit or Gholdengo (eventually) go, I am in favor of expediting the banning process currently, either with a joint suspect (which I think we did in XY, but I don't remember) or by employing more quickbans. I do believe the meta is in a very match-up fishy state (perhaps the most match-up fishy its been the entire generation) and think the removal of a few outliers such as Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, possibly Roaring Moon, possibly Volcarona, and possibly Ogerpon-Wellspring would be a good start in improving the meta's state. Most of the aforementioned Pokemon are arguably absurd regardless of Tera, barring Volcarona and maybe Raging Bolt.
For me personally, I would not quickban anything aside from Gouging Fire (absolutely bonkers mon in sun), Ogerpon-Wellspring (which is currently being suppressed by Archaludon and either shits on slower teams or forces a defensive Tera), and Roaring Moon as they put a stranglehold on building due to their outrageous breaking power that requires minimal support.
 
For me personally, I would not quickban anything aside from Gouging Fire (absolutely bonkers mon in sun), Ogerpon-Wellspring (which is currently being suppressed by Archaludon and either shits on slower teams or forces a defensive Tera), and Roaring Moon as they put a stranglehold on building due to their outrageous breaking power that requires minimal support.
I don't think Gouging Fire is that clean cut compared to say Moon as Gouging Fire has far more offensive counterplay thanks to needing a few turns to get going and or relying on band in sun
 
I don't think Gouging Fire is that clean cut compared to say Moon as Gouging Fire has far more offensive counterplay thanks to needing a few turns to get going and or relying on band in sun
If Sun were nerfed (either with Heat Rock or Drought ban) then Gouging Fire would be a healthy presence, but as it is currently, this mon's power under sun is just too absurd and has very little real counterplay barring changing the weather. Helmet Lando-T isn't even a real check since its getting OHKO'd by raging fury, which doesn't make contact so its not even dealing helmet chip.
 
If Sun were nerfed (either with Heat Rock or Drought ban) then Gouging Fire would be a healthy presence, but as it is currently, this mon's power under sun is just too absurd and has very little real counterplay barring changing the weather. Helmet Lando-T isn't even a real check since its getting OHKO'd by raging fury, which doesn't make contact so its not even dealing helmet chip.
Technically tusk is an answer if proto speed, but honestly sun has been kinda nuts all gen so honestly I think a drought/heat rock suspect should be considered
 

Drifting

in my glo stance smokin' dope
is a Tiering Contributor
Hello, I wanted to actually write a proper post to the council (though I’m on my phone getting lunch so forgive the sloppiness) regarding a topic I think is what the tier needs.

Booster Energy getting a suspect tested as a banned item á la Soul Dew in older gens.

I’ve brought it up in discord before to some ppl on council but never really had a proper dialogue which is what I’m looking for here

:gouging-fire: :raging-bolt: :walking-wake: :iron-crown: :iron-boulder: :iron-valiant: :roaring-moon: :iron-moth: :great-tusk: (Tera Poison Bulk Up)

These pokemon (and perhaps others I’m forgetting) all are, or were for a long time, extremely volatile, potent sweepers that very often are impossible to wall or can set-up off one opportunity and win on the spot, mostly thanks to Booster Energy. Personally, in tournaments I’ve done well in like WCOP and OUPL (and even ones like SCL where I dropped the ball), these pokemon have felt completely overwhelming at times due to the huge stat boost they receive without Choice item drawbacks, and the one time nature of these items has imo incentivised and trended the tier towards all-out offensive gameplans. (SV being an especially offensive tier I’m sure is a take most would agree with, albeit Tera is another major reason).

It really stood out to me how the three pokemon Finch named as suspect targets in the main discussion thread, Moon, Gouging and Bolt, are all abusers of this one item, but I would go a step further and say that a lot of pokemon more under-the-radar, such as Valiant and Wake apply way too much offensive pressure and versatility thanks to Booster and have honestly been broken since they’ve been in the tier. I would say Booster abusers are like, 75% of the “problem pokemon” people complain about in this tier.

I know people might say “but DRIFTING, not EVERY pokemon is broken with Booster”, and sure it’s not exactly exerting a lot of pressure on meme pokemon like Scream Tail, but we didn’t let Gothita being shit stop us from banning Shadow Tag. We have to look at the bulk of relevant pokemon in OU usage actually abusing this item, and it’s clear to me at least that it’s seriously worth consideration.

Come on, this is an item that turns honest defensive GOATs like Tusk into brainless set-up cheese trying to 6-0 asap just like basically every other Booster mon. I think so many Pokemon would become actually honest and the tier would be more stable in general without this thing, not a doubt in my mind. It is also far easier than the like, 10 bans njnp mentioned we’d need to achieve similar stability otherwise.

I don’t know what this would mean for Pokemon like Flutter Mane or Iron Bundle by the way. I’m sure they’re still way too insane but it’d be up for the council to decide.

I would love to hear the thoughts of the council, and sorry for any formatting cringe, gotta do what I gotta do for a steak sandwich.
 
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I don't think Gouging Fire is that clean cut compared to say Moon as Gouging Fire has far more offensive counterplay thanks to needing a few turns to get going and or relying on band in sun
Relying on Choice Band shouldn't disqualify Gouging Fire from being a quickbannable threat. Even Tera Fire Choice Band with Protosynthesis Speed 1-or 2 shots pretty much everything on offense aside from Walking Wake and opposing Gouging Fire.

Here are some calcs for relevant Fire-resists on offense in OU:

168 Atk Choice Band Tera Fire Gouging Fire Flare Blitz/Raging Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Boulder in Sun: 304-358 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
168 Atk Choice Band Tera Fire Gouging Fire Flare Blitz/Raging Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon in Sun: 334-394 (95.1 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
168 Atk Choice Band Tera Fire Gouging Fire Flare Blitz/Raging Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite in Sun: 131-155 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after breaking Multiscale
168 Atk Choice Band Tera Fire Gouging Fire Flare Blitz/Raging Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Glimmora in Sun: 275-324 (89.5 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
168 Atk Choice Band Tera Fire Gouging Fire Flare Blitz/Raging Fury vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt in Sun: 265-312 (65.1 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
168 Atk Choice Band Tera Fire Gouging Fire Flare Blitz/Raging Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Sun: 321-378 (101.2 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
168 Atk Choice Band Tera Fire Gouging Fire Flare Blitz/Raging Fury vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace in Sun: 321-378 (89.9 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
168 Atk Choice Band Tera Fire Gouging Fire Flare Blitz/Raging Fury vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake in Sun: 136-161 (39.7 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
168 Atk Choice Band Tera Fire Gouging Fire Flare Blitz/Raging Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gouging Fire in Sun: 107-126 (30.4 - 35.8%) -- 41.2% chance to 3HKO
 
Hello, I wanted to actually write a proper post to the council (though I’m on my phone getting lunch so forgive the sloppiness) regarding a topic I think is what the tier needs.

Booster Energy getting a suspect tested as a banned item á la Soul Dew in older gens.

I’ve brought it up in discord before to some ppl on council but never really had a proper dialogue which is what I’m looking for here

:gouging-fire: :raging-bolt: :walking-wake: :iron-crown: :iron-boulder: :iron-valiant: :roaring-moon: :iron-moth: :great-tusk: (Tera Poison Bulk Up)

These pokemon all are, or were for a long time, extremely volatile, potent sweepers that very often are impossible to wall or can set-up off one opportunity and win on the spot, mostly thanks to Booster Energy. Personally, in tournaments I’ve done well in like WCOP and OUPL (and even ones like SCL where I dropped the ball), these pokemon have felt completely overwhelming at times due to the huge stat boost they receive without Choice item drawbacks, and the one time nature of these items has imo incentivised and trended the tier towards all-out offensive gameplans. (SV being an especially offensive tier I’m sure is a take most would agree with, albeit Tera is another major reason).

It really stood out to me how the three pokemon Finch named as suspect targets in the main discussion thread, Moon, Gouging and Bolt, are all abusers of this one item, but I would go a step further and say that a lot of pokemon more under-the-radar, such as Valiant and Wake apply way too much offensive pressure and versatility thanks to Booster and have honestly been broken since they’ve been in the tier. I would say Booster abusers are like, 85% of the “problem pokemon” people complain about in this tier.

I know people might say “but DRIFTING, not EVERY pokemon is broken with Booster”, and sure it’s not exactly exerting a lot of pressure on meme pokemon like Scream Tail, but we didn’t let Gothita being shit stop us from banning Shadow Tag. We have to look at the bulk of relevant pokemon in OU usage actually abusing this item, and it’s clear to me at least that it’s seriously worth consideration.

Come on, this is an item that turns honest defensive GOATs like Tusk into brainless set-up cheese trying to 6-0 asap just like basically every other Booster mon. I think so many Pokemon would become actually honest and the tier would be more stable in general without this thing, not a doubt in my mind.

I would love to hear the thoughts of the council, and sorry for any formatting cringe, gotta do what I gotta do for a steak sandwich.
I personally think booster is fine mainly due to the fact it's a item slot that does sometimes have opportunity cost, sun and it's interaction with protosynthesis and how obnoxiously powerful it makes stuff tusk, wake, bolt, gouging fire, etc; is more pressing at the moment since you can have an item if using weather, I think suspecting both is a good idea

I also think tera should stay on the surveys, as I have heard that people are open to it once enough things go.
 
wanted to preface the post by applauding council for their handling of the gen and their consistent transparency through the generation.

I’m of the opinion by now that banning tera would’ve been a disastrous mistake turning one of the most interesting (at minimum, unique) gens into another boring slamming my weavile into corv gking static generation(this time with gliscor let’s go!). I’m glad to see that taking tera off the table is no longer a real part of the discussion. I also do agree that we need to tier aggressively around tera.

To me the biggest determinant of this gen of what makes something banworthy is builder stress. In a vacuum, SV has both incredible defensive tools (clod dirge dozo are leagues better than previous unaware users for example) and the ability to finesse pretty much any mon offensively especially with tera granting resists/supereffective coverage. Between these these two you can make the argument that licherally nothing is broken but I don’t think it’s super wise to unban Ho-oh because wow man just run alomomola on every team or run knock abundant ho and it sucks.

If you start viewing mons from a builder perspective it’s clear why so many people are frustrated with the gen. Volcarona is consistently countered by Unaware Clodsire and Unaware CM Clef, both of which only function on fat. Toxic GKing, offensive waters, Dirge, etc. can all have the mu easily flipped by Sub/Tera Steel/Ground and it’s not healthy to a metagame to say just outplay it or don’t run into that set. Roaring Moon makes double physical offensive cores incredibly cancerous to account for as after one of the three pokemon (skarm dozo corv kinda) that swap in and win get knocked they are much worse into the Gambit or Waterpon or Gouging or whatever that comes in after. Yes it is possible to rk roaring through means such as Scarf Darkrai, Weavile, priority (importantly Gambit Sucker after forced Tera Flying, etc.) you have to account in the builder that the majority of these rk methods require chip and it’s unlikely a reasonable trade down (esp considering these rk methods let in other cannons like Prim Volc Gambit etc.)

This post is rambly and despite its issues SV is genuinely my favorite gen of OU but there is clear room for improvement. I would begin by seriously considering a quickban for the previously banned mons freed at the start of dlc2 and from there being more aggressive with quickbans in general (I think kyurem was a fine suspect but arch is an incredibly negative presence with immediate and clear poor metagame impact in spl.) This meta is already really awesome and diverse but I would hate to see improvement stifled by “The Industry Will Not Ban Any Pokemon Because We Run HO Every Game Np”

p.s. banning weather rocks or booster is jokes. target abusers before the mechanic lol
 
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wanted to preface the post by applauding council for their handling of the gen and their consistent transparency through the generation.

I’m of the opinion by now that banning tera would’ve been a disastrous mistake turning one of the most interesting (at minimum, unique) gens into another boring slamming my weavile into corv gking static generation(this time with gliscor let’s go!). I’m glad to see that taking tera off the table is no longer a real part of the discussion. I also do agree that we need to tier aggressively around tera.

To me the biggest determinant of this gen of what makes something banworthy is builder stress. In a vacuum, SV has both incredible defensive tools (clod dirge dozo are leagues better than previous unaware users for example) and the ability to finesse pretty much any mon offensively especially with tera granting resists/supereffective coverage. Between these these two you can make the argument that licherally nothing is broken but I don’t think it’s super wise to unban Ho-oh because wow man just run alomomola on every team or run knock abundant ho and it sucks.

If you start viewing mons from a builder perspective it’s clear why so many people are frustrated with the gen. Volcarona is consistently countered by Unaware Clodsire and Unaware CM Clef, both of which only function on fat. Toxic GKing, offensive waters, Dirge, etc. can all have the mu easily flipped by Sub/Tera Steel/Ground and it’s not healthy to a metagame to say just outplay it or don’t run into that set. Roaring Moon makes double physical offensive cores incredibly cancerous to account for as after one of the three pokemon (skarm dozo corv kinda) that swap in and win get knocked they are much worse into the Gambit or Waterpon or Gouging or whatever that comes in after. Yes it is possible to rk roaring through means such as Scarf Darkrai, Weavile, priority (importantly Gambit Sucker after forced Tera Flying, etc.) you have to account in the builder that the majority of these rk methods require chip and it’s unlikely a reasonable trade down (esp considering these rk methods let in other cannons like Prim Volc Gambit etc.)

This post is rambly and despite its issues SV is genuinely my favorite gen of OU but there is clear room for improvement. I would begin by seriously considering a quickban for the previously banned mons freed at the start of dlc2 and from there being more aggressive with quickbans in general (I think kyurem was a fine suspect but arch is an incredibly negative presence with immediate and clear poor metagame impact in spl.) This meta is already really awesome and diverse but I would hate to see improvement stifled by “The Agency Will Not Ban Any Pokemon Because We Run HO Every Game Np”

p.s. banning weather rocks or booster is jokes. target abusers before the mechanic lol
This is my problem with some those who are pro tera, you don't know that gen 9 would end up like SS. Chances are if tera were to go the power level would go down a bit but the meta would likely still favor HO. Point being, banning tera wouldn't necessarily turn the meta into a fatter one, it would probably help those balance teams work better though. Point being, keeping tera because you don't want the tier to be like gen 8 isn't really something that holds up, as you sometimes cannot predict how a meta will develop over time without it. Also, from those I spoke to the majority want action on broken pokemon before tera is looked at again which is why people don't want a tera ban right now specifically or any sort of action at the moment from what I can tell.

Also I would agree to target abusers first, but there are so many that are or could potentially be problematic that it's worth considering
 
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I’ve been pondering making a post for about a week now. With real life getting in the way and honestly figuring out what approach I wanted to take with this post…it has taken me a while but we’re finally here. It has been rather frustrating to see some opinions/takes in recent weeks as we find ourselves in a metagame state that was very much avoidable. I have concluded that we as a player base have to face some realities.

Firstly, I need some of the player base to stop being opposed to bans of any kind. If you feel the metagame is in a fine state and nothing needs to change, you have the right to that opinion. That does not change the reality that a large portion of the player base finds this metagame untenable, which has been the case for most of this chaotic metagame. So, being that the general view is a good amount of Pokemon are problematic and you do not want the council to take matters into their hands, the reality needs to set in that more Pokemon will be banned, and that’s the only way to have a quality metagame.

I understand the prospect of banning even more Pokemon after having already binned 20+ is too much for certain players but realities have to be faced. This is arguably the most power crept Metagame and terastalization has only enlarged that. We currently have a metagame where a lot of matchups are decided turn 1 and that is very unhealthy. I feel the prospect of keeping Pokemon like Kyurem certainly doesn’t aid in the development of the Metagame.

"Yeah, now, well, the thing about the old days: they the old days" - Slim Charles from The Wire

The chance to remove terastalization seems to have passed. It is time for some of the player base to face that reality. With barely 1/4th of the qualified player base supporting the outright removal of terastalization, the chances of that changing are Slim to none. With that being the case though we need to remove all of the excessive abusers of tera to make it as palatable as possible. The prospect that we keep tera and allow Pokemon like Archaludon, Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, Roaring Moon, Volcarona, or even Kingambit to remain in the tier is laughable. Let’s remind ourselves that this mechanic and these power crept Pokemon are made with the mindset of doubles gameplay. If you want to keep Terastalization, I need us as a player base to come to the understanding that we have to remove the most absurd abusers of the mechanic for it to be palatable.

If we’re to shape OU into a proper tier that stands the test of time with the power creep that game freak has bestowed upon us. I feel you can make the strong case we have to witness an additional 10 bans to have a stable state. Now now, I know 10 is a large number, btw Welcome to SV OU if you find that stunning. What I find stunning is the fact only 1/4th of the qualified player base right now supports the outright removal of terastalization while we load into unwindable matchups. I’m not personally pro the removal of terastalization but if you feel it is a balanced mechanic that deserves to stay then you must realize that your favorite Pokemon can not stay.
I feel like while I do agree that we need more bans, I am questioning whether we should restrict the mechanics of things moreso to stop them potentially becoming banworthy. This is not about banning tera or booster (mons that are broken with booster are broken without booster), this is moreso stuff like weather. I feel like this gen, multiple mons have been borderline broken and have been pushed over the edge with some mechanics. For example, gouging fire and walking wake would be alright in a heat rock-less metagame I believe.
However, if this does not come to fruition, then I am more than happy to just ban the mons. We should make sure to ban something if it is broken and I do not believe that letting something stay unbanned because people think "the mechanic is broken, not the mons" is right. We can come back later and review it and not let the metagame suffer because of people's different views.
The biggest contributors to this negative metagame right now are rain (obviously), kyurem, roaring moon and potentially raging bolt/volcarona/kingambit. I do not believe something like waterpon to be broken, and gouging fire is alright in my eyes, though that opinion could change if sun becomes broken.
If we can get rid of these threats, then I believe the metagame could become one of the best, we saw in early DLC2 where multiple unique strategies/mons could be used to great success, but first off we have to ban rain and see where it goes.
 
This is my problem with some those who are pro tera, you don't know that gen 9 would end up like SS. Chances are if tera were to go the power level would go down a bit but the meta would likely still favor HO. Point being, banning tera wouldn't necessarily turn the meta into a fatter one, it would probably help those balance teams work better though. Point being, keeping tera because you don't want the tier to be like gen 8 isn't really something that holds up, as you sometimes cannot predict how a meta will develop over time without it. Also, from those I spoke to the majority want action on broken pokemon before tera is looked at again which is why people don't want a tera ban right now specifically or any sort of action at the moment from what I can tell.

Also I would agree to target abusers first, but there are so many that are or could potentially be problematic that it's worth considering
I don’t want to ban tera fundamentally because it’s not a broken mechanic. The majority of banned mons would remain banned without it with exceptions like Regieleki being a small portion of abusers but that’s also just a pointless hypothetical as there are drastically more pokemon not broken by the mechanic than pokemon broken by it. Tera types on all mons are generally well known and there are numerous ways to avoid playing a 50/50 guess (tossing material, forcing setup mons that don’t care what tera is clicked on them, encore, status, unaware mons, defensively terag, etc.) The majority of games you see lost to suprise tera are preventable after the tera have been clicked, I have fumbled around this in tour games but still think it’s a player issue that is improved by experience lol.

In general banning the mechanic before individual abusers is bad because you hamper legitimate metagame presences to preserve a negative one but also in the case of weather rocks/booster it just makes no sense lol. Rain has one problematic abuser, sun has like 0.5 problematic users, and booster breaks like roaring moon woo. This is just a clear cut case of way more negative than positive effect when there is an incredibly clean solution of banning the individual users.
 

658Greninja

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Hello, I wanted to actually write a proper post to the council (though I’m on my phone getting lunch so forgive the sloppiness) regarding a topic I think is what the tier needs.

Booster Energy getting a suspect tested as a banned item á la Soul Dew in older gens.

I’ve brought it up in discord before to some ppl on council but never really had a proper dialogue which is what I’m looking for here

:gouging-fire: :raging-bolt: :walking-wake: :iron-crown: :iron-boulder: :iron-valiant: :roaring-moon: :iron-moth: :great-tusk: (Tera Poison Bulk Up)

These pokemon (and perhaps others I’m forgetting) all are, or were for a long time, extremely volatile, potent sweepers that very often are impossible to wall or can set-up off one opportunity and win on the spot, mostly thanks to Booster Energy. Personally, in tournaments I’ve done well in like WCOP and OUPL (and even ones like SCL where I dropped the ball), these pokemon have felt completely overwhelming at times due to the huge stat boost they receive without Choice item drawbacks, and the one time nature of these items has imo incentivised and trended the tier towards all-out offensive gameplans. (SV being an especially offensive tier I’m sure is a take most would agree with, albeit Tera is another major reason).

It really stood out to me how the three pokemon Finch named as suspect targets in the main discussion thread, Moon, Gouging and Bolt, are all abusers of this one item, but I would go a step further and say that a lot of pokemon more under-the-radar, such as Valiant and Wake apply way too much offensive pressure and versatility thanks to Booster and have honestly been broken since they’ve been in the tier. I would say Booster abusers are like, 85% of the “problem pokemon” people complain about in this tier.
Banning Booster would make def Moon balanced, but I don’t think anything is actually broken with Tera. The fact Booster is only a one-time boost rather than being permanent like pre-nerf Intrepid Sword is enough of a balance for such positives.

I’ve already talked about Raging Bolt many times so I won’t comment on it, but G-Fire’s dominance is lesso cause of Booster and moreso cause of the variety of sets and EV spreads it could run, and you wouldn’t know which one it is in team preview. DD Three Attacks, DD + Morning Sun, DD + Breaking Swipe, etc.

Valiant you could probably make a case for it, but Valiant is more just really good than broken atm. Boulder actually dropped in usage after the initial hype. Reliant on Tera to sweep and vulnerable to most common priority moves. This wasn’t mentioned but Treads also frequently uses Booster but only uses it for the lead mu, not to outright cheese games. I’ve legit never found an argument for Tera Poison Booster Tusk being broken. Moth lives and dies to coverage while wanting Substitute for Gambit Sucker Punch. I don’t see it breaking the tier, in fact it and also Iron Crown aren’t even OU. Crown in particular has had a terrible run in SPL. It requires more support than other sweepers and is more reliant on Tera. Booster Wake outside of Sun I’ve legit never seen since Home. A Walking Wake outside of the Sun is a non-issue.

No matter how much it is brought up, I do not see the argument to suspect it.
 
I’ve been pondering making a post for about a week now. With real life getting in the way and honestly figuring out what approach I wanted to take with this post…it has taken me a while but we’re finally here. It has been rather frustrating to see some opinions/takes in recent weeks as we find ourselves in a metagame state that was very much avoidable. I have concluded that we as a player base have to face some realities.

Firstly, I need some of the player base to stop being opposed to bans of any kind. If you feel the metagame is in a fine state and nothing needs to change, you have the right to that opinion. That does not change the reality that a large portion of the player base finds this metagame untenable, which has been the case for most of this chaotic metagame. So, being that the general view is a good amount of Pokemon are problematic and you do not want the council to take matters into their hands, the reality needs to set in that more Pokemon will be banned, and that’s the only way to have a quality metagame.

I understand the prospect of banning even more Pokemon after having already binned 20+ is too much for certain players but realities have to be faced. This is arguably the most power crept Metagame and terastalization has only enlarged that. We currently have a metagame where a lot of matchups are decided turn 1 and that is very unhealthy. I feel the prospect of keeping Pokemon like Kyurem certainly doesn’t aid in the development of the Metagame.

"Yeah, now, well, the thing about the old days: they the old days" - Slim Charles from The Wire

The chance to remove terastalization seems to have passed. It is time for some of the player base to face that reality. With barely 1/4th of the qualified player base supporting the outright removal of terastalization, the chances of that changing are Slim to none. With that being the case though we need to remove all of the excessive abusers of tera to make it as palatable as possible. The prospect that we keep tera and allow Pokemon like Archaludon, Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, Roaring Moon, Volcarona, or even Kingambit to remain in the tier is laughable. Let’s remind ourselves that this mechanic and these power crept Pokemon are made with the mindset of doubles gameplay. If you want to keep Terastalization, I need us as a player base to come to the understanding that we have to remove the most absurd abusers of the mechanic for it to be palatable.

If we’re to shape OU into a proper tier that stands the test of time with the power creep that game freak has bestowed upon us. I feel you can make the strong case we have to witness an additional 10 bans to have a stable state. Now now, I know 10 is a large number, btw Welcome to SV OU if you find that stunning. What I find stunning is the fact only 1/4th of the qualified player base right now supports the outright removal of terastalization while we load into unwindable matchups. I’m not personally pro the removal of terastalization but if you feel it is a balanced mechanic that deserves to stay then you must realize that your favorite Pokemon can not stay.
For starters, I am in agreement that the metagame needs some bans to improve both the competitiveness and enjoyment of SV OU. On one hand, DLC2 has provided so many new Pokemon to build with to the point where teambuilding diversity is at the highest it's been this generation; on the other, the "turn 1" win feeling when entering ladder or tour matches is a bit too real, particularly weather teams. Fire/Neck/Wake Sun and Archaludon rain are just very difficult to play around, and and the margin for error is very slim. Some does need to be fixed.

I think the current suspect testing + community survey combo is fine because it's a good balance between OU Council authority in driving metagame development and community involvement; however, currently it seems like the entire playerbase (both qualified and casual) are deadlocked in the middle when it comes to identifying broken threats, and that reflects on the suspect tests (I take anything below 3.8 / 5 on those as apathetic).

The one flaw of suspect tests is that it doesn't help players make a fully informed decision prior to voting. As it stands, players just climb up ladder, hit the required mark, then submit a vote that's partially informed by word-of-mouth discussion, back-and-forth forum posts, or preconceived bias. Frankly speaking, it's a bit difficult to be certain if removing a given Pokemon from the metagame will make the meta more enjoyable and competitive without testing it first. Even big public policy bills are (mostly) predicated on peer-reviewed research. My theory is that we'd see a higher ban rate on problematic Pokemon if we ran a 2-ladder suspect: one with the Pokemon, the other without. The latter ladder would give players an environment to see if banning a suspected Pokemon makes the game more:
  1. enjoyable
  2. competitive
It's definitely more work to get two reqs than one, but I think lowering the reqs for both would balance out the effort. My guess is that the ladder without the suspected Pokemon will be the tougher req since you're trying to hit GXE on a mostly new metagame. The details can be hammered out, but I think a double-ladder suspect would best remove preconceived biases from the voting process (mostly to prevent deadlocks like this Kyurem suspect or the pre-DLC Kingambit suspect from happening again).
 

ausma

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I believe the needle needs to be moved in some significant way, given the state of the tier.

While many people believe it to be pretty fun and balanced by broken v. broken to a point where nothing should happen, I believe that such a concept is far more tantalizing on paper than in practice. The tier is not in a sustainable state, and it's evident by how reactive it is, and the consequences of that reactivity. The metagame is incessantly changing; teams have to find new ways to respond to adapting threats, and in doing so, compromising themselves against other things. Normally this is a good thing, but in my eyes, metagames that grow this fast and have so many centralizing trends to respond to will often enter a state of oversaturation, leading to teams having to make concessions, and a more matchup oriented teambuilding experience that can be unreasonably difficult (if not impossible) to prepare for any stable threatlist with. This is the inherent problem with broken checking broken; at some point, you enter a vortex of reactive adaptations that force very exploitable weak points, and can situationally cause games to boil down to one or two key turns because of the degree of raw threat factor there is to prepare for and play against. There's a reason Stall has become so popular, because it's really the only way to contain as much as possible while keeping your options open. But even then, it isn't enough sometimes. Sure, the tier can be fun when you get the right matchups, but more often than not you will lose to polarizing threats you literally did not have the ability to prepare for without compromising yourself in other respects, or enter matchups that feel (and often can be) stacked against you.

Removing Archaludon would be a great step forward, but that doesn't remove Sun from the equation, nor does it address the copious amount of other threats in the tier that can't reasonably be prepped for in a vacuum. Pokemon like Galarian Slowking, Ting-Lu, and Great Tusk are obscenely good blanket checks to many things, but at the end of the day their utility is not all-encompassing. Galarian Slowking is extremely resilient, which makes it a potent check to Walking Wake and Kyurem. However, being weak to Knock Off (thus making it a free click) is a horrendous Achilles' Heel given the vitality of HDB to stabilize teams into hazard stack structures, and Steel-/Ground-types are very problematic for it and often not easy for it to respond to. Great Tusk and Ting-Lu are very potent defensively, but their lack of recovery does leave them prone to being overwhelmed through the barrage that is Gouging Fire, Roaring Moon, Kingambit, and more, while also being exploitable by Pokemon like Volcarona depending on your moveset. Going with these Pokemon is almost always a good choice, but being railroaded into using them to contain Pokemon that they only loosely check while preserving team synergy can often take even more control out of your hands and lead to devastating gamestates that are often unavoidable.

Regarding Tera:

Many people have attributed this level of polarity to Tera, since it's a consistent factor behind the potency of offensive behemoths, but I really don't think Tera is the issue here. If anything I've found that Tera actually grants some semblance of stability by giving teams costless failsafes into specific weakpoints, and there is a heavy element of skill involved with knowing when to use your Tera and how to play around your opponent's. Though quite obviously defensive Tera isn't enough- Tera is just as lucrative for offensive threats, and while defensive type shifting is a big element behind that, I also believe that Tera Blast is a very undersold element of offensive Tera that can outright remove checks or make them incapable of functioning through the element of surprise and coverage inflation respectively.

I am still very much so a fan of removing Tera Blast; even if it doesn't seem like it changes very much in a vacuum, I do believe it does contribute to a stupid amount of variance that compositions have at their disposal and generates more polarity by inflating movepools to an asinine extent. Kingambit, Dragonite, Volcarona, Raging Bolt, Kyurem, Dragapult, Serperior; the list goes on, because giving offensive Pokemon the ability to beat checks with unreasonable consistency and little leverage to play around only makes the current state of the metagame more difficult to navigate by adding even more matchup-oriented elements. This is honestly a huge reason why Tera Blast is worth removing to me even if it doesn't seem all too great of a target on paper. Reducing the threat level by keeping some Pokemon's matchup pool consistent can help us navigate more polarizing Pokemon like Volcarona more consistently, at least a little bit.

Regarding "Broken" Pokemon:

From my experience, the most egregious Pokemon to navigate have been Kyurem, Archaludon, Volcarona, and Raging Bolt in that order. Honorable mentions to Roaring Moon and Kingambit.

:kyurem::archaludon:

I am pretty disappointed to see Kyurem stay since I don't really think it offers anything that we don't already have, and it feels the most unreasonable to check while also being the easiest to enable. More reasoning here. Archaludon is being suspect tested, and I've already explained my stance the best I can here. Hopefully it leaves!

:volcarona:
I just... don't think it is a healthy presence, so long as Tera Blast is around. I think it is the most egregious example of the potential Tera Blast has to utterly ravage Pokemon that it shouldn't, and it benefits from every aspect of the mechanic in nearly every way. It has some neat qualities defensively, but what it offers to the tier doesn't outweigh what pressure it lays on battle dynamics. I feel as though it is a really hard Pokemon to truly stop and consistently play around, even if you maneuver around it well and have some prep in the teambuilder. The variance of Tera, its moveslots, and the constant variable of Flame Body make it very difficult for teams to navigate around in the mid-to-late game when its cards are not fully out. Volcarona would be an easy save with Tera Blast in the bin, but as long as the move is around, Volcarona has a lot of variance involved with it, usually in favor of the user. I'm not super sure if I would call it conventionally broken per se, but I do think it is uncompetitive in its current state.

:raging-bolt:
Raging Bolt is a pretty silly Pokemon. While it's a less egregious variant of Archaludon as a Dragon-type wallbreaker with shiny Electric-type moves, with some priority to boot for offense, it's also a nightmare to check without dedicated Special walls that also have the ability to pressure it in return or outlast it, essentially being just Clodsire, Ting-Lu, and Blissey. Most other Pokemon collapse to its dual STAB combination. In essence, it is a very anti-offense Pokemon, but is harder to get value out of against more reinforced teams that often feature Pokemon like Ting-Lu, Gliscor, and Clodsire anyway. Granted, I do think its priority is more reasonable to check than Kingambit's, seeing as Ground-types are reliable revenge killing options (barring Tera). The bulk and access to Calm Mind make it a trade artist (that can sometimes just clean thanks to Thunderclap) that is difficult to break past without making some sacrifices or maneuvering around it correctly with Pokemon like Iron Treads or Galarian Slowking and positioning a Ground-type. It's possible that reduced polarity may make it more reasonable to answer as the metagame begins transitioning into a more stable state, especially given the nature of its priority move, but I struggle to see how the needle would move to favor its presence in the long run without some level of uncomfortable teambuilder oppression, especially once Clodsire stops feeling as necessary.

I can elaborate more on my thoughts regarding the laundry list of centralizing threats later, but for the sake of not making this post a massive snooze-fest, I agree with njnp that action needs to be taken with bans in order to begin moving toward stability.

Regarding Booster Energy

I read earlier the idea of addressing Booster Energy, which is an interesting proposition that I'm extremely curious about. There is tiering precedent of banning overwhelming elements that aren't as good on other things, which... yeah? Baton Pass on a Jigglypuff isn't going to break the world, but was used broadly enough to be considered fundamentally problematic. Booster Energy isn't quite comparable to Baton Pass, but its effect is extremely felt in the tier.

it's the immediacy of Booster Energy that is really striking. Having a 1.5x Speed boost on entry with no drawback is often game-defining, and makes it easier for more offensive structures featuring Pokemon like Roaring Moon, Iron Valiant, or Iron Boulder to force you out and find opportunities to exert pressure. Booster Energy is a massive reason the tier is as fast as it is, and why priority, your own Booster Energy users, and fast Choice Scarf users have essentially become mandatory for most structures. Offense boosts can be very strong too; Roaring Moon and Raging Bolt gain very notable powerups, with the former having the perfect move to take advantage of it, and Raging Bolt having powerful priority. Offensive Booster Energy is a nice tool for Gouging Fire too, making it so it doesn't have to Dragon Dance as much to enter into a stable cleaning position. I would argue it is not quite as influential as the Speed boost, but its best users make deadly use of it.

On paper, removing it seems actually quite relieving, seeing as many users (like Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, and Sandy Shocks) live and die on the ability to outpace most of the metagame. However in practice I struggle to really extrapolate how the metagame would really reply to it, to a point where I'm skeptical of how worth it it actually is over just banning the stupid stuff, which is more feasible to extrapolate comparatively.

___

Hopefully this provides some food for thought. Bear in mind that these aren't binding opinions and may change pretty quickly as we continue to discuss our approach!
 
Regarding Booster Energy

I read earlier the idea of addressing Booster Energy, which is an interesting proposition that I'm extremely curious about. There is tiering precedent of banning overwhelming elements that aren't as good on other things, which... yeah? Baton Pass on a Jigglypuff isn't going to break the world, but was used broadly enough to be considered fundamentally problematic. Booster Energy isn't quite comparable to Baton Pass, but its effect is extremely felt in the tier.

it's the immediacy of Booster Energy that is really striking. Having a 1.5x Speed boost on entry with no drawback is often game-defining, and makes it easier for more offensive structures featuring Pokemon like Roaring Moon, Iron Valiant, or Iron Boulder to force you out and find opportunities to exert pressure. Booster Energy is a massive reason the tier is as fast as it is, and why priority, your own Booster Energy users, and fast Choice Scarf users have essentially become mandatory for most structures. Offense boosts can be very strong too; Roaring Moon and Raging Bolt gain very notable powerups, with the former having the perfect move to take advantage of it, and Raging Bolt having powerful priority. Offensive Booster Energy is a nice tool for Gouging Fire too, making it so it doesn't have to Dragon Dance as much to enter into a stable cleaning position. I would argue it is not quite as influential as the Speed boost, but its best users make deadly use of it.

On paper, removing it seems actually quite relieving, seeing as many users (like Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, and Sandy Shocks) live and die on the ability to outpace most of the metagame. However in practice I struggle to really extrapolate how the metagame would really reply to it, to a point where I'm skeptical of how worth it it actually is over just banning the stupid stuff, which is more feasible to extrapolate comparatively.
Regarding Booster Energy, I feel like its removal could potentially be problematic, as booster speed valiant and boulder are the ultimate revenge killers because only a very few select mons that can run choice scarf (or Deoxys Speed existing) can outrun it. Boost sweepers have always been problematic and this gives us a way to outspeed them even if they get a boost. Also, the only mon that I can even see being non-problematic with the removal of booster is potentially roaring moon, but even then it could still be broken. I feel it would take away a large part in the revenge killing department as these mons can no longer outspeed the boosted metagame to revenge kill.
Also, use assault vest on sandy shocks with tera water. Suprisingly good at taking hits and can tera to beat certain rain threats.
 
Well, the polarization of opinions and the lack of 60% consensus on basically everything has stagnated, but finding out some facts can help make things better.
Terastal apparently isn't going away. Counters are no longer counters, free coverage and free extra defensive synergy too.
I would also like to propose abandoning the idea of banning Tera Blast, treating this attack as an isolated case is a mistake, it is part of the Terastal mechanic even though it can be removed, we would be making a mistake and setting a precedent of mischaracterizing the mechanic. If we are really going to embrace it, let it come with all its drawbacks along with it. We've already seen how mischaracterizing a mechanic can be useful in the short term, but in the long term it just becomes a different problem. (Glad not seen you again Baton Pass.)
That said, Volcarona lovers forgive me, but this matchupmoth needs to go ASAP. Kingambit, a strong but totally ok Pokémon WITHOUT Terastal, needs to be revisited, not as a priority.

Regarding priorities, I see that some players have problems banning a Pokémon that they know is problematic, but is not their top 1 priority. Can we rethink this mentality?
If you can remove the 2nd or 3rd most problematic thing in the game before the 1st, why not do it?

Today I'm not going to talk about 60% x 50%, but if someone wants to add that to how easy/difficult/time-consuming/laborious it is to get requirements, quality x player base x council PoV, Kokoloko or whatever, it's time to rethink the mode of approach appears to be now.

Booster Energy; Except when we use Digglet in Dugtrio's suspect test in gen 6. We always opt for the best options. There are broken Paradox anyway, ok or bad Paradox, but there are those where BE pushes against the wall, shall we consider taking out Valiant, Fire, Bolt, Moon, Wave, Boulder to preserve an item? We just made some progress with Sleep (I didn't see anyone else complaining about Darkrai) in a "radical" way. Gen 9 is unique in so many ways, it needs more individual approach.

I don't remember Rain being called problematic before Archaludon and Bolt, nor Sun (except FirePon) before GFire.

Kyurem needs to be reconsidered as a last priority (if we have time); This thing continues to adapt, now I see mixed DD with some random Tera surprising everyone.

No, I haven't forgotten you, Gholdengo. You make the meta orbit around you and limit the build. Force the use of HO before the field is all dirty or force the use of 5/6 boots on defensive teams. You have a great typing, a broken ability, and a scary movepool.
 
Regarding Terablast ban, is there proof that Terablast is inherently broken and make a lot of mediocre pokemon super good? Volcarona is the best abuser of the mechanic, for sure, but most other pokemon aren't as broken with it, and many don't even want to run it. If Terablast was broken like Last respects or uncompetitive like baton pass, I could see it, but it being broken on a few pokemon when hundreds of pokemon can use it, seems like a stretch to me. Not to mention, Terablast is core to terastal phenomenon, as it exists to give STAB to the Pokemon's new typing by design. If preserving generation gimmick is so important, isn't it imperative to keep it intact as is? Since it's never getting banned in this gen. Otherwise we will be having a neutered version of generational mechanic, cherry picked to be acceptable.

Anyways, I won't really mind if tera blast is banned (even though I don't find it problematic for vast majority), but to me it doesn't solve any of the issue that comes with tera. All I want to say, it will be mistake to assume the meta will get much better if Terablast is gone, as it's just applying band aid to bullet wound. If Volcarona is a problem, I see much more merit in suspect testing Volcarona for ban.
 
Won,t even discuss the Tera thing.

Booster Energy Ban however its a good idea for. It severely nerfs Boulder, who while will still remain a very good Mon, becomes more predictable and more susceptible to Revenge Kill from Pult, Weavile, Darkrai and weather sweepers.
Iron Valiant remains extremely dangerous with Specs and Band, but at least nerfs the boosting sets.
Defense boosting + Tera Gouging Fire becomes worse too, despite still having Grassy Seed as a viable option.
Rain Raging Bolt will now have to actually either predict with Specs or hit less harder. Sun Bolt still looks broken though.
Acro Roaring Moon will need Grassy Seed too, so won,t have that immediate Acrobatics power.
Iron Moth, Iron Jugulis, Iron Treads and Iron Clown lose some viability as a side effect, but they will still be decent Mons.

Overall, nerfing 5 potentially broken Mons (also Wake, but Booster Wake in my opinion is pretty bad to begin with) sounds like a good change, especially if we want to try to preserve said Mons in OU instead of banning them.
 
I really really really am still vehemently opposed to the concept of banning Booster Energy. I maintain that the only Pokémon it arguably “breaks” is Roaring Moon; you can’t convince me that Raging Bolt and Gouging Fire are theoretically broken with Booster Energy but fine without it given that they run other items more frequently than they do Booster Energy. If those two end up being banned, then I believe that will be the case regardless of whether or not Booster Energy would be banned too. Valiant is an actively healthy meta presence at the moment and Iron Boulder isn’t remotely close to broken. I’d really just rather focus on targeting the most egregiously broken Pokémon one by one until the metagame is less oversaturated with too many threats to account in the builder.
Overall, nerfing 5 potentially broken Mons (also Wake, but Booster Wake in my opinion is pretty bad to begin with) sounds like a good change, especially if we want to try to preserve said Mons in OU instead of banning them.
Banning an entire item in an attempt to nerf certain Pokémon on the off-chance that it might make them balanced enough to keep around is imo a really terrible way to approach tiering. I would only accept this line of reasoning if all 5 of these Pokémon were unquestionably broken and it was specifically due to Booster Energy, not because they’re 570-590 BST behemoths with crazy typings, stat distribution, and movepools.
 
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Finchinator

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I think we need to tier aggressively with a pace that isn’t rushed, but does acknowledge that the metagame needs action before it is close to balanced. Plenty of people can (and will) argue the specifics of what that will entail, and I’ll be all ears. But ultimately, there’s a lot of work to be done and we should be on top of it in the coming weeks/months.
 
Banning an entire item in an attempt to nerf certain Pokémon on the off-chance that it might make them balanced enough to keep around is imo a really terrible way to approach tiering. I would only accept this line of reasoning if all 5 of these Pokémon were unquestionably broken and it was specifically due to Booster Energy, not because they’re 570-590 BST behemoths with crazy typings, stat distribution, and movepools.
Its what literally has been done in DPP, BW, ORAS and SM with Soul Dew. Latias in DPP and Latios in BW remained as controversial Mons even despite that, so there is a good enough of a precedent.
 
Considering Tera is out of the question I don't mind aggressive tiering methods to try to fix the meta (won't happen imo with Tera in it) and make it at least bearable.

I'm against the bans of weather rocks, light clay and booster energy as I only find a few users to be problematic and I would rather ban specific Pokemon than makes all of these playstyles as bad as trick room.

I've played quite a lot recently and in my opinion the following pokemon are the most broken in that order : Raging Bolt, Kingambit, Roaring Moon and probably Gouging Fire when Archaludon gets banned and rain sees less uses.

I know I'm in the minority but I wouldn't mind H-Samurott being banned too as I absolutely hate Ceaseless Edge haha.
 

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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A disorganised thought I have about Booster Energy that I feel is important to consider is that it allows for natural speed control options for offense that are extremely difficult to come by otherwise. There are a few exceptionally fast Pokemon that are already very difficult to account for like Dragapult, Roaring Moon, and Iron Boulder; the latter two are nerfed by a lack of Booster Energy for sure, but in other ways they become harder to deal with; you can't use Boulder to help against Moon, or Valiant to help against a Booster-burned Boulder, and neither can help against Dragapult anymore. This also applies to stuff like Weavile and Meowscarada in particular.

Fully aware that the goal of a Booster ban is to weaken explosive offense but I'm not really sure that'd end up being the case in practice. A prime reason for Valiant to run Booster Energy is really just so that it doesn't lose to other Booster Energy mons; Choice Scarf has been a pretty awful item for a while now in a hazard-centric metagame and there are very few mons that naturally outspeed it as is. Of course this opens up Cinderace, Weavile, Dragapult etc. as more reliable counterplay but that can't really be said for like, Iron Boulder, and a number of the ones that don't boost Speed like Raging Bolt / Gouging Fire are honestly better off using other items half the time anyway.

Idk stream of consciousness and not something I've fully thought through yet but I don't think booster is something worth considering I think? I could probably be convinced but it doesn't seem like the move to me.
 
While i believe booster energy should stay and isn’t broken itself and heavily disagree with ausma’s take on raging bolt
i do believe one of the best users of booster energy has its disgusting claws holding our the metagame in its grip because its so commonly used and wins the game upon switching into a pokemon that doesn’t completely shut down its chances at sweeping on the stop
IMG_2595.jpeg

roaring moon has been a huge amount of trouble for us with its tera flying acrobatics set which has few reliable checks, let alone counters
its solid bulk and high speed lets it survive common revenge killing and tera flying is amazing at reversing counterplay and gaining a free set up turn
along with making acrobatics a free ko button
i actually contribute its high usage and how is it is to use as the biggest set back to teambuilding we have in the tier, its so easy to use
 

Finchinator

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I think the appropriate tiering practice would be to look into a couple of Pokemon like Roaring Moon or Raging Bolt (can argue Gouging Fire as well) up front. If they’re all deemed problematic and other things still are, then we can reevaluate and potentially unban a few things that benefitted if we act on Booster Energy. I don’t think it will get all the way to that point, but no point basing it all off of theory anyway.

We are at a point where we have all generation to optimize everything, but there is some immediacy being felt for fixing the problems right in front of us, so this caters to all of that.
 
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