Voting lists for old gens

pokemonisfun

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The recent thread here on old gen low tier voting thresholds gives me hope we are professionalizing our old gen tiering process. To continue that process, let me suggest:

All old gens that want to do a suspect decision must create a final voting list at least 1 week (7 full days) prior to voting.

Specifically:
  • Everyone in the voting list should be tagged so they are aware of the vote, when the list is finalized.
  • There does not need to be a Smogon/sitewide policy on what constitutes the list, but may I suggest that qualification means playing at least 3 (tournament) games and winning at least 1? We can't have ridiculously low standards like reaching round 2 of a tournament.
    • One sitewide policy I would support is having at least 2 live tour suspect tournaments to allow for qualification for each old gen low tier vote.
    • There should be a sitewide guideline (optional, not policy), of including several tournaments that most old gen low tiers have (Premier Leagues, Snake Drafts, Cups, and anything else).
    • I doubt there will be an issue of a too small list. But I suggest a minimum of 20 voters or maybe a more flexible number, like four times the number of the old gen low tier council.
  • If anyone on the list does not have a badge, they should be given permission to post in PR or the relevant thread (not sure how this moderation power works), without them needing to ask, just prior to them getting tagged.
  • This list must be approved by an old gen low tier council/leader. I am aware there is no old gen low tier council/leader for most or all old gen low tiers right now. I may make a separate thread to ask for this to further professionalize.
  • Creation of the voting list does not guarantee a vote, particularly if the newly tagged people are against changing the status quo/the vote.
 

pokemonisfun

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Just bumping this and tagging Finchinator and TonyFlygon because they expressed interest in how to make voting lists for old gens.

I would like this policy:
  • The voting list must be created at least 7 days prior to posting a voting thread
  • Everyone on the voting list must be tagged and given posting permissions in this forum without them asking
  • There is no site-wide policy on how to create the voting list. However, requirements mean having at least 3 games played and 1 win in the qualifying tournament
    • 3 games played should include activity wins, I don't think it's fair to deny someone reqs because one of their games was an activity win, they have minimal or sometimes no control over that.
  • Should there be a council made to create voting list criteria, the voting list must be at least 4x the size of the council in order to ensure the council can't just decide for themselves
  • Creation of a voting list does not guarantee a vote

This is only one aspect of old gen, low tier voting. There are still unresolved questions, some of which that do not have threads. I don't think we should discuss them in this thread; make a new thread if you want to discuss the following:
  • Who decides if there is an old gen, low tier council?
    • Who composes the council if there is one?
  • What is the voting threshold to change the status quo (Hogg or a policy admin should post a resolution in this thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/voting-threshold-for-past-gen-votes.3686591/)
  • Are we comfortable with letting any badged user create a thread to ask for an old gen, low tier suspect, as is currently the status quo? (I am comfortable with this for what it's worth)
  • If Lilburr or Saria happen to be on a voting list (for any vote, including current gen and OU), then should they be allowed to see the votes before they vote? As far as I'm aware, only they can see the vote right now. It might be useful to have a third or fourth moderator to moderate the blind voting forum if and when they qualify for a vote.
 

TonyFlygon

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Hey pokemonisfun, sorry for the late response. Your suggestions are about what I had in mind myself, except for the councils part. I don't believe we need any councils specifically catering to the various past gen lower tiers. I think a more effective way to go about it would be to have tier leadership, which would be the generation the lower tier falls under, be in charge. DPP leadership would handle a DPP UU suspect test, for example. If none of the DPP moderators are comfortable enough with DPP UU, to follow that same example, then they can ask someone like Donphantastic, esche or Tomahawk to oversee the process in their stead, or perhaps simply the person that started the discussion. I'd imagine that more often than not they'd be happy to run point, given that they're invested enough to spark the conversation in the first place. We can entrust tier leadership with either handling or adequately delegating this responsibility.

As for the criteria, I agree with you that we shouldn't lock them in down to the very details. We can however set up loose guidelines of what we expect to see in a voter list and its requirements, which is something Hogg and I will work on and hopefully announce in the near future alongside the voting thresholds. This should also eliminate the need of a council, as there would be a system in place to follow. Tier leadership can act as a quality check team to ensure no steps were skipped in preparing the voter list. We'll make sure to provide tier leaders with the necessary knowledge for this, too. Once we figure out the essential steps to take when holding a lower tier past gen suspect test, we can apply that knowledge across the board. Hogg and I intend to provide you with an update soon. Thank you for posting this thread.
 

pokemonisfun

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Hey pokemonisfun, sorry for the late response. Your suggestions are about what I had in mind myself, except for the councils part. I don't believe we need any councils specifically catering to the various past gen lower tiers. I think a more effective way to go about it would be to have tier leadership, which would be the generation the lower tier falls under, be in charge. DPP leadership would handle a DPP UU suspect test, for example. If none of the DPP moderators are comfortable enough with DPP UU, to follow that same example, then they can ask someone like Donphantastic, esche or Tomahawk to oversee the process in their stead, or perhaps simply the person that started the discussion. I'd imagine that more often than not they'd be happy to run point, given that they're invested enough to spark the conversation in the first place. We can entrust tier leadership with either handling or adequately delegating this responsibility.

As for the criteria, I agree with you that we shouldn't lock them in down to the very details. We can however set up loose guidelines of what we expect to see in a voter list and its requirements, which is something Hogg and I will work on and hopefully announce in the near future alongside the voting thresholds. This should also eliminate the need of a council, as there would be a system in place to follow. Tier leadership can act as a quality check team to ensure no steps were skipped in preparing the voter list. We'll make sure to provide tier leaders with the necessary knowledge for this, too. Once we figure out the essential steps to take when holding a lower tier past gen suspect test, we can apply that knowledge across the board. Hogg and I intend to provide you with an update soon. Thank you for posting this thread.
Thanks Tony for your thoughts.

Frankly I agree with the council part being unnecessary. I've never delved into the ROA part of our website so I didn't even know there was DPP/ADV/old gen leadership until a few months ago. I suppose using them first would be a reasonable place to start. I just included that council point because Christo posted about a potential council here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stall-in-sm-uu-was-sm-uu-blissey.3684458/page-2#post-8896244 so I thought it was something to put as a discussion point. Tagging in case I correctly interpreted his post and he wants to defend his idea.

It sounds like you're in the process of making a general guideline/standards to be followed for old gen non OU tiers (I realize I shouldn't call it low tier if Uber is included). Now that I think about it, I don't think there's a single thread that gives the guidelines for current gen non OU tier votes.
Purely as friendly advice, it might at least be a useful thought exercise to ask why we don't have one for CG when you're making one for old gens.

I'm not taking a position on if there should be one for CG (one obvious difference is voting lists are clearly simpler when you have to do a public vote/test) but I would guess thinking about the differences might make you think of things you didn't think of previously for old gen non OU tier standards.
 

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