Wailord [0/3]

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pokemonisfun

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This is a revamp for Wailord, sorry if doing revamps for just finished analysis is causing any problems but we can look at this analysis objectively still? :]

[OVERVIEW]

  • Wailord is a unique bulky water that is most effective when employing a PP stalling strategy rarely seen in competitive play
  • It has just enough of a movepool and attacking power to use other sets such as Curse and special sets as well, although it is more or less outclassed in these roles by Pokemon like Carracosta and Simipour respectively
  • As a bulky water Wailord faces competition from Politoed which has better overall bulk and a Scald immunity
  • However unique doesn't necessarily mean good; Wailord's best set requires an enormous amount of support that typically only stall teams can provide
  • Additionally stall in general is a less reliable playstyle in the metagame due to the massive amount of threats
  • Luckily Wailord has just enough bulk, with its massive HP, and utility, by being able to counter certain stall breaking threats such as Duosion and Calm Mind Clefairy, to have merit on a stall team

[SET]
name: StallLord
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Aqua Ring
move 3: Protect
move 4: Scald
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Calm
evs: 252 Def / 4 SpA / 252 SpD


[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

  • Substitute allows Wailord to block status and scout switch ins while letting it also PP stall moves
  • Aqua Ring, while rarely seen in competitive play, gives Wailord recovery that can be abused with Protect and Substitute
  • Protect stalls for time giving Wailord free recovery while letting it also PP stall moves
  • Scald supplies Wailord with a decent amount of reliable power and can inflict burns which Wailord loves to abuse by stalling out

Set Details
========

  • The EVs maximize Wailord's overall bulk allowing it to set up on as much of the metagame as possible, including all resisted Choice moves such as Waterfall from Basculin
  • Pressure is a non negotiable ability as it allows Wailord to PP stall the majority of the metagame when set up, including for instance CM Clefairy.
  • Leftovers is similarly required because it lets Wailord create an endless combination of Substitute and Protect after Aqua Ring is set up, losing no net HP over time.
  • Bold nature is also viable although Calm is generally preferred as it allows Wailord to take Giga Drain from Roselia much better and various Thunderbolts (zeb?) and then set up a Substitute assuming Wailord is at full HP with Aqua Ring already.

Usage Tips
========

  • There are two main ways to use Wailord, as a generic bulky water to absorb resisted and weaker neutral hits, and as a nearly unbreakable PP stalling wall
  • The way you use it depends on the match up
  • If you notice you can easily set up Toxic Spikes without them being absorbed on impact by an opposing grounded Poison, that is an indicator you can use Wailord as a "win condition" late game
  • Status must be avoided if you plan to use Wailord like this as Wailord will be unable to make an unbreakable cycle if it loses HP every turn.
  • Be wary of Boomburst Chaot which can hit through Substitute and multi hit moves, especially Bullet Seed (does anything even use bullet seed?)
  • Don't be afraid to use Wailord's natural bulk to switch in on threats bulky waters normally wall such as Monferno, as long as you avoid their coverage moves

Team Options
========

  • Wailord requires support that generally only stall and semistall can provide if its to be used at its full potential as a PP staller
  • Toxic Spikes is almost mandatory to allow Wailord to stall out Pokemon such as Gogoat with Substitute and Protect more easily, saving PP. Two layers are often better than one if your opponent has a Pokemon with reliable recovery like Milk Drink Gogoat. Roselia and defensive Whirlipede are options as they have the bulk to set up multiple times in a game ad resist some of Wailord's weaknesses. (defensive whirlipede is um...okay?)
  • Entry hazard removal is useful for Wailord, especially as Toxic Spikes completely cripples Wailord and Stealth Rock and Spikes just make it harder for Wailord to set up. Rapid Spin users such as Avalugg are preferred to keep Wailord's own precious Toxic Spikes but Defog is more reliable in that it cannot be blocked and Wailord's own hazard users tend to be bulky enough to set up multiple times during a game. Drifblim can double as a passable spin blocker in addition to a Defogger. (defog user or defogger? i used drifblim in nu and it was okay on my stall but yeah different tier so is the mention okay?)
  • Cleric support is extremely helpful for Wailord, as it is on all stall teams, as it gives Wailord another chance to stall again if it gets inflicted by status such as from a surprise Toxic piloswine or an unfortunate Scald burn. Lickilicky has access to Heal Bell and compliments Wailord's typing by absorbing special Grass and Electric moves that Wailord generally tries to avoid. Roselia can do the same with Aromatherapy although she generally lacks the space in her sets to do so effectively. (mention clefairy?)
  • Toxic users, which are extremely common because of the move's almost universal distribution, help Wailord stall out more foes that would normally be immune to Toxic Spikes. For instance Gabite can use Toxic on many Defoggers that switch in on him which let Wailord stall them out more easily later in the game. Piloswine can do the same although it may not attract as many Defoggers.(everything gets toxic lol should i mention anything else?)

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

  • Toxic and Roar on the standard set would be nice but Wailord simply needs all four moves it already has to function. Toxic can be used over Scald though if Toxic Spikes support is neglected while Roar has some merit over Scald if Wailord is used with Spikes
  • Curse set (online one) gives Wailord a radically different function from the standard set although its slow, relatively weak and outclassed. Could get a nice surprise KO from Self-Destruct though and can avoid Scald burns with Water Veil
  • Special sets such as Choice Specs can abuse a relatively strong Water Spout and Hydro Pump (I think it gets this lol?) but again it is slow and outclassed by Floatzel for instance. Use Water Veil

Checks and Counters
===================
  • Roselia with Rest can stall out Wailord, set up as many hazards as she wishes, and absorb the Toxic Spikes that Wailord is generally paired with. However Synthesis variants of Roselia can be stalled out
  • Infiltrator Jumpluff can cause problems, easily 2HKOing Wailord with Seed Bomb and bypassing both Substitute and Toxic Spikes
  • Residual damage in the form of status as well as Leech Seed completely ruins Wailord's PP stalling strategy
  • Strong attackers such as Dodrio and Stoutland can stop Wailord from setting up although they cannot switch in
 
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MZ

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Not QC but I can help

Overview
This feels way more positive than it should be, and it mentions that wailord has merits on teams at all. It's an E rank, regardless of what I think of your set none of the language should say that it can be used
It really doesnt counter CM Clef because Encore is a good move to run on it

Set Details
Zebstrika works for Tbolt yes
Again change CM Clef to duosion which this actually beats, it's just a bit nicer since encore CM does exist

Usage Tips
I don't get how this works as a generic bulky water if it can only use scald really. It should only be used in the PP stall routine, as other bulky waters at least can do things other than use one water attack
Still way too positive about Wailord's actual performance, instead of saying "no tox spike remover = good wincon" change to "should be used when Tspikes are up for maximum effectiveness" or something
Nothing really uses bullet seed since torterra left
I don't get the last bullet, it's saying "you can switch a water type into a fire type unless they use grass/electric coverage moves" which should go without saying

Team Options
Mentioning setting 2 layers of spikes is more stuff for usage tips (i.e. wailord is most effective when 2 Tspikes are up)
No, defensive whirlipede is not ok. Only mention roselia as the other Tspikers don't fit on stall (frogadier, suicide whirlipede)
Same thing, don't mention Defog Drifblim. Pelipper and Vibrava are viable. Also mention Armaldo as a spinner over Avalugg because lugg has actually gotten pretty bad recently
I'd mention Grumpig if talking about heal bell and hypno if talking about wish pass (for examples other than licky). Rose doesn't need to be mentioned due to the aforementioned being a bad user of aromatherapy
Gabite and Piloswine are fine for mentions, although I'd honestly go with something that can use toxic better than gabite like grumpig
I think it's defog user but Defogger is ok also? but don't worry grammar isn't too important until the GP check and they can correct

Other options
Probably mention scarf spout (not good but is a thing and should be mentioned)
yes it gets hydro lol
You don't need to mention use water veil
Mention a regular defensive set with like toxic protect scald ice beam clear smog idrk but regular defensive should also get a mention

c&c
This is in the wrong format, use the analysis skeleton/look at how other people do it. This also won't get written up when the rest does after 2 checks, not sure if you know
Rest Roselia isn't relevant
Mention how at best it's outstalling one and a bit pokemon thanks to its own finite PP
Mention hazard removers because if it doesnt have toxic spikes up it's 100% useless (which is a conundrum because it is removal fodder itself but yeah)
Just go with "offensive pokemon" over strong attackers, they all just win if it switches in and it doesnt specifically have to be CB wallbreakers or whatever
 

pokemonisfun

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Thanks for the help
Overview
  • I know the other E ranks sound much more negative so I'll be fixing that if Wailord stays E rank but I felt very honest writing the overview and will try to get it in D rank in a viability ranking post, especially after reading the E rank it doesn't sound like Wailord at all because Wailord is viable in my opinion. I would even say Wailord is closer to C rank than E rank but should still be in D overall.
  • I think this beats even Encore Clefairy since Encore is pressured and only has 4 net uses total then. you come in as they cm, you aqua ring as they cm again, you protect the first encore so they are at 6 pp [prediction required], you sub as they encore your sub and are at 4 pp, you sub again (failed) and they break your sub, you sub again as they break it again and are at 87.5%% now....if you want a more detailed turn by turn I can give it but I'm pretty confident Wailord can beat Encore Clefairy which isn't standard in my experience anyways.
Set details
  • since clefairy and duosion are magic guard stallbreakers i really wanted to mention both
  • will do the zeb mention
usage tips
  • politoed was in my head when i think of a generic bulky water....politoed can use encore and perish song in addition to scald but thats about it and perish song is sort of equatable (is that a word?) to pressure stalling in my opinion since they have similar targets (last mon boostsers like duosion) with some differences of course. what i mean is to me the definition of a bulky water is a water type that can soak up various hits because waters have so few weaknesses and a few key resistances while spamming scald....wailord can do this nearly as well as Politoed WHILE AT THE SAME TIME threatening to "sweep" with the pp stalling idea
Team options
  • what do you think about mentioning both defogger and spinner because i'm fond of using both on a stall team
  • i'd like a little more input on defensive whirlipede before dismissing it since i used it last gen, if nobody gives me any input though ill try to test it out with wailord
  • ill mention pelipper and vibrava, no drifblim, and both avalugg and armaldo since i feel both spinners have their own distinct advantages
  • grumpig and hypno will get mentions for their support moves, completely forgot about those two
  • ill get rid of aromatherapy roselia mention
other options
  • ill mention scarf and hydro pump
  • shouldn't i mention water veil since its better for non pp stalling sets? are there legality issues im missing?
  • regular defensive sounds fine i'll probably mention a regular defensive set can better make use of roar/toxic
cc
  • ill change the format and thanks I didn't know I have to wait until 3/3 to write up this part
  • i mean rest roselia is worse than synthesis but eh...ill proabbly just mention even synthesis roselia causes big problems despite being stalled out in the end
  • in my experience there really isn't a usable "average" number of pokeon wailord can stall out. literally speaking yes there is a mean mathematical average after a large amount of games (probably yeah just over 1 in my games) but that number isn't really meaningful imo because some times you can stall 3+ (delicious choiced users are complete wailord bait) and other times they are going to have a hard counter they just switch in (rest rose!) and even if the other 5 mons are magikarps you won't be able to do anything with wailord
  • ill mention hazard removers and grounded poison but frankly its far from 100% useless even if it doesn't have hazards for reasons you should already know/that i outlined!
  • offensive pokemon can be checks fine but basically none of them can counter wailord...if they give wail a free turn on the switch then you set up aqua ring and you just need to be able to survive with +25% to set up a sub (easily done with wailord's good bulk) to begin the stall fest
i think i covered all your points and i'll edit them in later today/wait for qc for some other stuff i mentioned....thanks again.
 

MZ

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Oh hey look I'm QC now and started this so I'll finish my own am check. I'll just be going off of what I see, probably mentioning stuff twice but don't feel like checking everything to make sure I don't say things again

First of all, this has a lot of fluff which doesn't need to be here
  • Wailord is a unique bulky water that is most effective when employing a PP stalling strategy rarely seen in competitive play
This is just a good example of what isn't needed, both tag ons like "rarely seen in competitive play" and the bullet in general because it doesnt give any new/useful info. The other issue is the tone is still a bit positive, even if this goes up to D it's still by no means as good as described

  • It has just enough of a movepool and attacking power to use other sets such as Curse and special sets as well, although it is more or less outclassed in these roles by Pokemon like Carracosta and Simipour respectively
No, it doesnt. These sets aren't just outclassed, they're bad and don't need to be mentioned. Also my comp keeps doing this text change thing, just ignore it because idk wat do

Overview

Probably worth mentioning that Politoed isn't just a better bulky water but can also remove clef/duo like wail can with perish trap (or at least check with regular perish / encore), making it overall way better
Mention how its poor defenses and lack of useful resistances for the most part give it a hard time switching into common attackers, this is probably the biggest reason for it being bad
Also mention how it can only PP stall, it lacks any other utility and is extremely easy to simply wall thanks to its only fallback option being scald
Mention how it's pretty much fodder for most grass-types (rose spikes and takes zero, Jumpluff has infiltrator, gogoat can bulk up, even leafeon can SD BP or something I guess)
Your description of beating encore clef is too prediction reliant to be reliable so just take clef out

Moves
Again, no need for "aqua ring, a move rarely seen in competitive play" the fluff really doesnt add anything

Set Details
Reword "non-negotiable ability", it sounds like it's the only option when water veil is a legal ability. maybe "preferred" or something along those lines

Usage tips
Aforementioned there aren't really two ways to use it comment. You're either PP stalling or clicking scald which goes without saying and doesnt need mention. Politoed plays far differently because you aren't stuck with PP stall, it has multiple offensive and defensive possibilities and has different coverage moves and status moves to use like ice beam, HP electric, encore, perish song, etc
Aforementioned wincon wording
Infiltrator Jumpluff can be mentioned over bullet seed, basically same thing
I'd mention how wailord needs to be saved for the one specific threat it beats on opposing teams, if it wastes time PP stalling something else it'll run out of PP to beat duosion or whatever
Mention how wailord needs hazards to be effective, as otherwise good switches can make it very pressured to do it's job (going back and forth between roselia and

team options
Mention Pokemon capable of dealing with grass types esp rose (klang is probably the most applicable mon here)
Piloswine attracts the same amount of defoggers as gabite if not more (both attract pelipper, neither attract vibrava, but swanna is more likely to try switch in on a piloswine than gabite, plus wail can beat swanna if it has a sub up anyway)
About both spinner and a defogger, that's more of a personal preference so there's no reason to suggest using both in the analysis. And personally I don't see the need for both at all, especially when you've just forced yourself to always use Pelipper/vibrava and Armaldo/Avalugg/very rarely torkoal which is pretty limiting

other options
I only said don't mention water veil because it doesnt need mentioning. If you were doing a full set then you'd go through EVs and ability and stuff, but a quick mention in OO can be left at the first sentence of the bullet point
You don't need to say "the online one", we know and it'll get removed in gp anyway. This will replace it

checks and counters
At 2 QC checks you write up everything but c&c (and the set lol). c&c never gets written. check out other analyses being written right now or uploaded ones for an example, and use the analysis skeleton (link in the reservation OP) to fix the formatting
none of the offensive pokemon need to counter wailord, it's checks and counters. it's literally for the same reason you put it in in the first place
Maybe it's not 100% useless, but I still think toxic spike removers deserve a mention as they do make it waste a lot more PP and make it more difficult to be effective. Also, without hazards, people can switch around wailord as it goes for non attacking moves or between two mons that can recover off scald and pp stall it out
Mention rest users (not rose), they win the PP stall as long as they don't keep using sleep talk. This is mainly Klang but also Machoke and Zweilous (none others are really relevant)
Give another category to taunt / encore users for obvious reasons. Again not too sure how much you know about the overall meta but that looks something like Grumpig, Misdreavus, Simipour, Floatzel, Vigoroth for Taunt and Politoed and Clefairy for encore (for viable users that you could mention, not all are needed)

Do this and I'll look over again and stamp
 

WhiteDMist

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For the usage tips, you need to go over what Wailord can set up on. All you have there revolves mostly around Toxic Spikes. Illustrate the process of setting up this combo, and note what some of the best Pokemon to set up on are. As for C&C, yeah this section is the only one that you need to have written up in the bullet stage (it stays the same the whole process, and it's less work for you later on).
 

pokemonisfun

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Okay thanks WhiteDMist I'll fix that later when wailord's rank (it's going to be e or d I believe) is decided so I can do all my edits at once which will be easier for me. If you want me to do it sooner then just tell me please and I'll get it done...but I assume nobody else is stupid enough to want to do a wailord revamp anyways :]

Megazard I'll include most of your changes but I still would like to discuss a few of them (after the possible vr change), I'm quite certain you beat encore clefairy almost all the time but I'll have to do calcs...being able to beat the Magic guard stallbreakers (Ik they do more than that but ever since reuniclus last gen many players equate Magic guard=stallbreakers) is supposed to be a gigantic selling point.

Regardless I'll make the overview a bit more negative anyways, talk more about its opportunity cost (having a bulky water that can't switch into guys like rapidash if you want to have a good chance of pp stalling later really sucks). And again I'll make it very significantly more negative if it stays e ranked/unranked
 

MZ

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Yah about clef, the scenario is it CMs to +6 but then has to encore on not sub/protect. It's in wailord's favor, but seeing as clef can get around Wailord it'd be more simple to just use a different mon


Edit: it's conditional and encore is rare so yeah just use clef it's fine
 
Minor but Basculin is usually LO not choice, mention Floatzel as a choice Water type instead since it's the only particularly common one

Monferno 2HKOes Wailord with LO Close Combat so I'd mention something else instead

No, nothing uses Bullet Seed

Defensive Whirlipede and Drifblim are pretty terrible (Roselia is really the only bulky tspiker but there are other options for Defog and spinblocking)

Mention Grumpig as a Heal Bell user

Remove Curse from oo, also downplay choice sets a bit more

Roselia almost never runs Rest, also Stoutland doesn't mind switching in that much because it always carries Facade. also mention Ursaring for similar reasons.

1/3
 
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