What do you think is the best Pokémon game so far?

My top 6 Pokemon games in order are:

1. Platinum
2. BW2
3. HGSS
4. BW
5. Emerald
6. FRLG

6 is pretty firmly FRLG. 2-5 are a bit more fluid. But 1 has been for a while and probably always will be Platinum.

It just has great bones to it. It's first or second in the series in all the following categories which are important to me:

- Champion
- Elite Four
- Gym leaders
- Villains/story (just ahead of BW, which fumbled it at the end)
- Rival (behind FRLG)
- Post game facilities (behind BW2, ahead of Emerald for me)
- Starter trio
- Regional dex (behind BW2)
- Regional map
- Difficulty/level curve
- Battle mechanics (ahead of Gen 5, not a big fan of infinite TMs actually)
- Graphics/art style (behind HGSS)
- Score (behind HGSS)

This is obviously hugely subjective as far as what criteria to judge by and how to judge within said criteria. I think game speed and team building homogeny are pretty fair and valid issues with Platinum. But ultimately things I can make do with.

BW2 has a solid case addressing the aforementioned two issues and going pretty even with Platinum across the board. But I think the story and rival, conveniently dovetailed together, are very weak in comparison and ultimately give the edge to Platinum.
 
I've talked before about how IMO Gen 7 is excellently paced with a story encounter with a miniboss/big boss timed about every 15-20 minutes, but that may make the game feel restrictive to others.
I like a lot about SM and it could have been my favourite 3D Pokémon game, or even one of my favourite Pokémon games over all, if not for the way it delivers its story.

I like the story and characters, but it felt like the game slammed on the breaks every five minutes to pause for an unskippable cutscene. And I am not one to typically complain about cutscenes.

The early game was even worse, with unskippable tutorials on top of cutscenes.

Coupled with the fact that they released essentially the same game a year later and made me sit through it all again but with a lot of the narrative payoffs cut out to make room for Rainbow Rocket (which I did like) and the Ultra Team (or whatever they're called, which I didn't), and the thought of ever playing through a gen 7 game sounds excruciating to me.

Which is a shame. Maybe a modded version or remake could redeem it for me.
 
My top 6 Pokemon games in order are:

1. Platinum
2. BW2
3. HGSS
4. BW
5. Emerald
6. FRLG

6 is pretty firmly FRLG. 2-5 are a bit more fluid. But 1 has been for a while and probably always will be Platinum.

It just has great bones to it. It's first or second in the series in all the following categories which are important to me:

- Champion
- Elite Four
- Gym leaders
- Villains/story (just ahead of BW, which fumbled it at the end)
- Rival (behind FRLG)
- Post game facilities (behind BW2, ahead of Emerald for me)
- Starter trio
- Regional dex (behind BW2)
- Regional map
- Difficulty/level curve
- Battle mechanics (ahead of Gen 5, not a big fan of infinite TMs actually)
- Graphics/art style (behind HGSS)
- Score (behind HGSS)

This is obviously hugely subjective as far as what criteria to judge by and how to judge within said criteria. I think game speed and team building homogeny are pretty fair and valid issues with Platinum. But ultimately things I can make do with.

BW2 has a solid case addressing the aforementioned two issues and going pretty even with Platinum across the board. But I think the story and rival, conveniently dovetailed together, are very weak in comparison and ultimately give the edge to Platinum.
I'm gonna take this opportunity to be a Sinnoh hater but before I do that, your opinion is valid even if I disagree

Anywho time to Sinnoh Bash:

I think Cynthia is so boring and I do not get why people love her. She literally just has a strong team (imo not even the strongest in the series) and shows up like three times and is useless in the plot. I also think her design is boring she is just blonde woman, compare that to other characters like Leon, Iris, Diantha, Lance, etc.

- Elite Four
Tbh I don't even know if Sinnoh's elite 4 is even that popular to begin with but I think it's just okay, I don't really remember much of the E4s anyways

Gym leaders
I think some of the leaders are OK but a lot of them feel like the quintessential "run a counter to the type GG", with a lot of them feeling almost at like XY level of mediocre.
Roark, Gardenia, Candice and Volkner I'd say are really boring gyms, but honestly I swept almost all of them by clicking super effective move anyways

- Villains/story (just ahead of BW, which fumbled it at the end)
I don't see the vision on this one because Cyrus is just dumb. He's an r/im14andthisisdeep level villain, he's depressed and thinks the world sucks so end the world? Like, this is what I meant in my post by "Pokemon games will sound like they have themes and then do nothing with it", Cyrus I'd say is probably in the bottom 3 villains for the series, next to Rose/Archer or whatever the fuck the Gen 2 guy that no one cares about was called

- Rival (behind FRLG)
Barry is just annoying I don't get Sinnoh enjoyers on this one either tbh

- Starter trio
Honestly p good one no complaints

- Regional dex (behind BW2)
IMO Sinnoh has one of the worst regional dexes, the reason almost every singleplayer story team is the same is because the game peaks with its Pokemon selection and then literally nothing else is there.

1736570751071.png


This isn't like, a scientific list, but like when I look at the Sinnoh dex I see like 15 mons worth running that I can feasible do without cheat codes max, and I do not have the time to find cheat codes to unlock Spiritomb or whatever + that wasn't intended

- Regional map
I've never liked Sinnoh Region as a Region, I think it's really really bland

Like, I don't like the direction regions like Unova go either where you walk two loading zones and it goes from New York City to hardcore desert, but I prefer that over how Sinnoh feels like Kanto 3, with Johto being Kanto 2, 90% of it is grass routes with the same palettes and most of the same Pokemon

Mt Coronet is lame because caves in Pokemon are lame, they look boring, are monotonous, not fun, and this game has so many of them

- Difficulty/level curve
I'll never get this one bc IMO Sinnoh games are very easy, the only hard part is literally the end and that's only because they overlevel the shit out of the E4. I've done comparisons before but Sinnoh follows a level curve very similar to Kanto except that Kanto's E4 starts lower and ends lower, Sinnoh is higher on both ends

... That is, if you're playing DP. For Platinum, it's the opposite, and I think it's still pretty easy. The only hard part is that there are no grinding spots and that your team is likely homogenous and mid. Cynthia dies when she goes out into freezing temperature and it's mostly just a statcheck.

The rest of the game is easy as hell.

Rest are too subjective for me to Sinnoh Bash on, though I hate the DPP graphics (I think it's the worst looking game in the series)
 
I don't see the vision on this one because Cyrus is just dumb. He's an r/im14andthisisdeep level villain, he's depressed and thinks the world sucks so end the world? Like, this is what I meant in my post by "Pokemon games will sound like they have themes and then do nothing with it", Cyrus I'd say is probably in the bottom 3 villains for the series, next to Rose/Archer or whatever the fuck the Gen 2 guy that no one cares about was called
Cyrus is nicely illustrative of a problem I see in a lot of the villains in these games: He feels like he was designed for our world, rather than the fantasy world he actually inhabits. Nihilism and general misanthropy are things that I have serious philosophical objections to in the real world, but I also understand how someone living in our times could arrive at them. In Cyrus, these things are completely nonsensical because the world he's in is basically paradise outside of the problems caused by his evil team. With the notable exception of Pokémon death (which Cyrus never once brings up), nobody in the Pokémon world deals with major problems that can't be resolved with a shift in attitude. There's no major strife or war; there's no bigotry or hatred; there's no abuse of power by anyone who holds it; and there aren't any people that I can think of who can't fit into society due to elements out of their control. In the absence of these things, how does anybody come to think like Cyrus? The most we get is an NPC alluding to the idea that Cyrus never really fit in as a kid and preferred the company of machines to people; if true, he is literally the only person in the entire Sinnoh region who has had this experience. It just falls totally flat for me.

The Distortion World is cool, though.
 
I think the Pokedex made in this game is the best. Not competitively, that's for sure, but there are very few designs that I can say suck- in fact, the ones I can identify that I dislike are ones that the developers basically intended to be ugly lol.
Alola's dex is so good that even the ugly mons are awesome. I'm a Crabominable and Bruxish truther, now and always

IMO Sinnoh has one of the worst regional dexes, the reason almost every singleplayer story team is the same is because the game peaks with its Pokemon selection and then literally nothing else is there.

1736570751071.png


This isn't like, a scientific list, but like when I look at the Sinnoh dex I see like 15 mons worth running that I can feasible do without cheat codes max, and I do not have the time to find cheat codes to unlock Spiritomb or whatever + that wasn't intended
I think you're being a liiittle bit too harsh (I've used Hippowdon and Gengar, they're cool, also Leafeon and Glaceon should be swapped due to where their rocks are located) but your list highlights a pretty big issue: Staraptor and Luxray are great, but they're so great to the point of DPPt being possibly the only game in this series where your pool of catches essentially peaks on the first route. It's definitely the preferable extreme to being a bunch of fodder like BW1's intro, but I'd rather have neither.

Mt Coronet is lame because caves in Pokemon are lame, they look boring, are monotonous, not fun, and this game has so many of them
People complained about the Coronet Highlands not having enough caves and I just can't really agree or care all that much for this reason. Emphasizing the Mt. in Mt. Coronet lead to much better results, I think! Climbing is fun, and so is having actual encounter variety! Frankly I've come to think that anytime DPPt iconography, Pokemon included is directly re-used/referenced in Legends Arceus it almost always comes out significantly better for it but I'll save the elaboration on that for if/when I do the aforementioned Souring on Sinnoh
 
Tbh I don't even know if Sinnoh's elite 4 is even that popular to begin with but I think it's just okay, I don't really remember much of the E4s anyways

Well, by that point in the series, these were the Elite Fours we’d seen:

- Lorelei (Ice), Bruno (Fighting), Agatha (Ghost), Lance (Dragon)
- Will (Psychic), Koga (Poison), Bruno (Fighting), Karen (Dark)
- Sidney (Dark), Phoebe (Ghost), Glacia (Ice), Drake (Dragon)

So to see a lineup of Bug, Ground, Fire, and Psychic is pretty refreshing!

… unfortunately, Sinnoh is Wurmpleland so the Bug guy wastes two slots on Dustox and Beautifly, and Sinnoh’s Fire-type population is critically endangered, so Flint is basically a Fire-type Trainer in name only…

Cyrus is nicely illustrative of a problem I see in a lot of the villains in these games: He feels like he was designed for our world, rather than the fantasy world he actually inhabits. Nihilism and general misanthropy are things that I have serious philosophical objections to in the real world, but I also understand how someone living in our times could arrive at them. In Cyrus, these things are completely nonsensical because the world he's in is basically paradise outside of the problems caused by his evil team. With the notable exception of Pokémon death (which Cyrus never once brings up), nobody in the Pokémon world deals with major problems that can't be resolved with a shift in attitude. There's no major strife or war; there's no bigotry or hatred; there's no abuse of power by anyone who holds it; and there aren't any people that I can think of who can't fit into society due to elements out of their control. In the absence of these things, how does anybody come to think like Cyrus? The most we get is an NPC alluding to the idea that Cyrus never really fit in as a kid and preferred the company of machines to people; if true, he is literally the only person in the entire Sinnoh region who has had this experience. It just falls totally flat for me.

The Distortion World is cool, though.

The way I look at this sort of thing is, I don’t think the condition of the world is what really matters. For instance, I’d describe myself as a fairly pessimistic person with a battered spirit and very little hope for the future of humanity, and very few avenues to do anything to change that, all because of, as you said, the nature of the times we live in. Make of that what you will, but my point is… even though I think that way, I still don’t want to commit genocide against 99% of life on Earth. I don’t think that would be in any way a sane solution to the problems that I observe in the world.

I think that in order to be willing to resort to a measure as malevolent and reprehensible as genocide, something within you has to be thoroughly broken, to the point that I don’t really know of the condition of the world being more idyllic than ours would make much of a difference to the hypothetical genocidal person. They are fundamentally not reacting to the world around them in a rational way. Instead, they have some kind of impulse convincing them that unleashing unmitigated violence upon the world is the key to making it work as they would prefer. Genocide is exclusively the province of megalomaniacs.

So I don’t think Cyrus needs the world to actually be so dire and full of strife in order to reach his nihilistic conlclusion — I think that idea originates from his own mind, as a result of being brought up in an environment of isolation and neglect, and then he just reverse-engineers a justification for it via confirmation bias. In Platinum, Cynthia even sort of calls him out on this kind of thing, asking why he doesn’t just fuck off to some quiet little corner of the world and let everyone else get on with their business. And Cyrus doesn’t have a good answer for that; he just doubles down on his belief that the human spirit is incomplete and that by eliminating it, he’ll be freeing everyone from a burden. But that “burden” is not one that most other people experience in such a concentrated manner as Cyrus did, so he has no right to pursue such an action on their behalf. He’s really just projecting his own problems onto everyone else. (And Lysandre is somewhat similar to that as well.)

People complained about the Coronet Highlands not having enough caves and I just can't really agree or care all that much for this reason. Emphasizing the Mt. in Mt. Coronet lead to much better results, I think! Climbing is fun, and so is having actual encounter variety! Frankly I've come to think that anytime DPPt iconography, Pokemon included is directly re-used/referenced in Legends Arceus it almost always comes out significantly better for it but I'll save the elaboration on that for if/when I do the aforementioned Souring on Sinnoh

I mostly agree with this, although I will say that I enjoyed the original Mt. Coronet on the first go-around. The long, winding, maze-like structure made it feel very momentous and arduous, which I think is the right feeling for what is essentially you ascending Poké-Mount Olympus to get to the climax.
 
I don’t think there’s any problem with putting two excellent encounters on the first route. The problem is, your original two versions of the game had a worse selection of Pokemon. Which is going to make the issues seem worse than the are in the third.

Kids already had a hard enough time making a full squad, obv when you’re giving them two good Pokemon that look cool in the vrry beginning they will gravitate towards them.

Also Intim is a great introduction to abilities because you notice how the first Pokemon you fight does less damage if its a physical attacker but afterwards your Pokemon gets more fragile.

I’d say HGSS had worse availability, and you actually do end up with similar squads due to constraints with xp and resources.

Disagree with tier list entirely. The real problem with Plat is that the whole making Elite 4 go up by 2 levels every time is nonsensical because it either makes half your “end of game” bosses into a cakewalk, or, as the case may be, and often was in my limited experience, makes the last E4 member and Champion a gamble unless you do some grinding and strategizing. Ofc if you play on Switch and use items it’s easier I assume.

The other problem is that Sinnoh didn’t add enough new Pokemon. They royally flubbed the new-evolutions. Well, half of them worked, and the other never really took on. And ofc they also flubbed availability. Murkrow shouldve been everywhere, amongst others!!

The physical special split half worked. You made Azumarill better, but only at the end of the game unless you knew how to optimize move tutor.
 
People complained about the Coronet Highlands not having enough caves and I just can't really agree or care all that much for this reason. Emphasizing the Mt. in Mt. Coronet lead to much better results, I think! Climbing is fun, and so is having actual encounter variety! Frankly I've come to think that anytime DPPt iconography, Pokemon included is directly re-used/referenced in Legends Arceus it almost always comes out significantly better for it but I'll save the elaboration on that for if/when I do the aforementioned Souring on Sinnoh
To be fair, I'm actually a Caves Enjoyer in open-world games because I think they can have strengths there.

I thought Tears of the Kingdom did it well... until I saw my 20th cave, then it got boring, but one of my biggest PLA hopes was to have a cave system. In fact in my head I had this sort of "internal pitch" for a gameplay moment:

You're walking through the woods when you see a cave. You enter it, and continue to get lost within the many unique items and Pokemon, when you hear large footsteps from around the many corners.

You take a look around one with your camera, and you see one: An Alpha Garchomp lurking, is it searching for you? Or is it just wandering? Either way, it's heading straight towards you so you keep moving.

Another thing I felt is that Crown Tundra did caves right, and Scarlet/Violet also has some neat caves. So I think it is a disappointment that PLA, covering the Sinnoh region, didn't really do it justice... IMO

I don’t think there’s any problem with putting two excellent encounters on the first route. The problem is, your original two versions of the game had a worse selection of Pokemon. Which is going to make the issues seem worse than the are in the third.

Kids already had a hard enough time making a full squad, obv when you’re giving them two good Pokemon that look cool in the vrry beginning they will gravitate towards them.

Also Intim is a great introduction to abilities because you notice how the first Pokemon you fight does less damage if its a physical attacker but afterwards your Pokemon gets more fragile.

I’d say HGSS had worse availability, and you actually do end up with similar squads due to constraints with xp and resources.
The problem isn't that there's good Pokemon early on. USUM puts a Zorua in the first route. The problem is that unlike Alola, your team selection basically peaks here, with few other selections matching.

One big part of the Luxray/Staraptor lines I don't see people mention is that these lines take no additional effort in order to train up. In fact, Garchomp, too, has one of the lowest requirements of a pseudo, Level 48! That's why it's one of the only pseudo legends you'll commonly see in main playthroughs.

Staraptor and Luxray will practically be finished and evolve around the same times as your starter, and have good BSTs and likely Intimidate, so it feels more like the game is dropping an entire starter trio on you by Route 2.

I think you're being a liiittle bit too harsh (I've used Hippowdon and Gengar, they're cool, also Leafeon and Glaceon should be swapped due to where their rocks are located) but your list highlights a pretty big issue: Staraptor and Luxray are great, but they're so great to the point of DPPt being possibly the only game in this series where your pool of catches essentially peaks on the first route. It's definitely the preferable extreme to being a bunch of fodder like BW1's intro, but I'd rather have neither.
The reason I was being harsh on a lot of Pokemon is because of the above. Garchomp for instance is another Ground-Type with a better typing than Hippowdon, better stats, and the only advantage it has is that Gabite takes longer to fully evolve (basically about Victory Road), while Hippowdon will have better performance for the last few gyms.

But the later half of gyms is Steel Gym, Ice Gym and Electric Gym, two of which Gabite already can nearly solo and the third that neither want to be switched into.

So many Pokemon in this game are event / evolution stone / trade it's absud. Yeah, Gengar is a good Pokemon if you can get it (maybe, it's a TM hog - Ghost stab is pretty mediocre in Gen 4), but is it really worth training all of those up compared to the ones above?


Well, by that point in the series, these were the Elite Fours we’d seen:

- Lorelei (Ice), Bruno (Fighting), Agatha (Ghost), Lance (Dragon)
- Will (Psychic), Koga (Poison), Bruno (Fighting), Karen (Dark)
- Sidney (Dark), Phoebe (Ghost), Glacia (Ice), Drake (Dragon)

So to see a lineup of Bug, Ground, Fire, and Psychic is pretty refreshing!

… unfortunately, Sinnoh is Wurmpleland so the Bug guy wastes two slots on Dustox and Beautifly, and Sinnoh’s Fire-type population is critically endangered, so Flint is basically a Fire-type Trainer in name only…
I suppose from this perspective I can see why it'd be interesting, though I am personally a big fan of Hoenn's E4 personally, not just because of the teams which IMO are solid but because I think the character designs are better than most gens.

Like, gun to my head name the Johto/Sinnoh Elite 4, I'm dying that day. And Kanto I know because they've made me play the game and see them like 20 times lol

The way I look at this sort of thing is, I don’t think the condition of the world is what really matters. For instance, I’d describe myself as a fairly pessimistic person with a battered spirit and very little hope for the future of humanity, and very few avenues to do anything to change that, all because of, as you said, the nature of the times we live in. Make of that what you will, but my point is… even though I think that way, I still don’t want to commit genocide against 99% of life on Earth. I don’t think that would be in any way a sane solution to the problems that I observe in the world.

I think that in order to be willing to resort to a measure as malevolent and reprehensible as genocide, something within you has to be thoroughly broken, to the point that I don’t really know of the condition of the world being more idyllic than ours would make much of a difference to the hypothetical genocidal person. They are fundamentally not reacting to the world around them in a rational way. Instead, they have some kind of impulse convincing them that unleashing unmitigated violence upon the world is the key to making it work as they would prefer. Genocide is exclusively the province of megalomaniacs.

So I don’t think Cyrus needs the world to actually be so dire and full of strife in order to reach his nihilistic conlclusion — I think that idea originates from his own mind, as a result of being brought up in an environment of isolation and neglect, and then he just reverse-engineers a justification for it via confirmation bias. In Platinum, Cynthia even sort of calls him out on this kind of thing, asking why he doesn’t just fuck off to some quiet little corner of the world and let everyone else get on with their business. And Cyrus doesn’t have a good answer for that; he just doubles down on his belief that the human spirit is incomplete and that by eliminating it, he’ll be freeing everyone from a burden. But that “burden” is not one that most other people experience in such a concentrated manner as Cyrus did, so he has no right to pursue such an action on their behalf. He’s really just projecting his own problems onto everyone else. (And Lysandre is somewhat similar to that as well.)
My take on Cyrus is that he is probably the least believable villain in Pokemon history.

Giovanni: Money Power
Gen 2 Guy: I forgot his name but bring back Giovanni
Archie Maxie: Environmentalism but mistaken on Legendary Lore and bad solution to problem
Cyrus: Genocide because I think humanity sucks, because
Ghetsis: Power
Lysandre: Genocide because humanity sucks, but also because he wants to build a better future in his head. Basically narcissism
Lusamine: Trauma from (presumed) dead husband causes Mother to change a lot of her personality traits to the worse, almost manic, obsession with finding creatures that (presumed by her) killed her husband almost creating an apocalypse
Rose: Can we solve the climate crisis during the Super Bowl
Volo: Power
Rose/Turo: We want to let our childhood dream / fascination enter the world, even if at the cost of the local environment

Like Cyrus doesn't really have a core motivation outside that he is a broken person, but I'ma be honest that isn't actually interesting for a story. There are real world ideologies that are basically "let's all die", ie. antinatalism, but they have an actual reason (being that they believe life is non-consensual and that the pain is not worth it) (I don't agree with it, just explaining) but Cyrus literally doesn't have a reason.

Lysandre has a reason even if it's dumb, he believes that modern society is bad and wants to restart with his own Noah's Ark to have a world that is beautiful. Dumb, but has a reason. Cyrus is incomprehensible because there is no philosophy behind what he says that tracks with anything it's just gibberish lol
 
I like Cyrus more than most Pokemon villains… I’m not the biggest fan of “relatability” as a positive point in art, but I do relate to him.

I struggle with a superiority complex irl. I know I’m smart, and I see people around me make poor decisions and or possess dumb ideas, and I look down on them, while excusing my own poor decisions and dumb ideas.

For example, I had a friend who lived with his Grandma. She was madly in love with her ex-husband, who lived next door. This man, Mike, spent his time trying to catch the attention of a 22 year old girl a third of his age who worked in the same restaurant. This girl wanted nothing to do with him beyond using him as a babysitter. One time, Mike thought my friend had flirted with her, and didn’t speak to him for several months.

I did not respect Mike and slightly hated him. What I was ignoring there was my own fears of loneliness and being a pathetic lonely old man myself one day, crying over a girl not liking me, like I did when I was younger.

I have countless stories like this, of me being judgmental and sneering at other people and their lives and beliefs, while ignoring my own faults and insecurities. And they don’t make me want to destroy the world and make it a perfect one, but they also don’t not make me feel that way. I have to remind myself that it’s wrong, and that I need to take the rage and depression I feel and not take those out externally but calm and heal the negative feelings in my mind.
 
I'm gonna take this opportunity to be a Sinnoh hater but before I do that, your opinion is valid even if I disagree

Appreciate the response, I'll expand on what I can. I'll preface this by saying - I'm not a fan of the Sinnoh games, I'm a fan of Platinum very specifically. The original DP might be my least favorite game(s) in the series with a host of problems ranging from AI, to regional dex, to art style... just to name a few. Platinum improves these games in almost every conceivable way. But my least favorite thing about these games might be the fact that people often conflate DP and Platinum's issues, forcing us Platinum fans to fire fight DP's issues rather than focus on the objectively far superior game. It almost feels like the sterling reputation of Platinum is sullied by the mere existence of DP.

So focusing on Platinum:

Champion: I like Cynthia's character design because it emanates power and elegance with a perfect team to fit that bill. Garchomp is also an excellent Pokemon to spotlight as her ace. And while her team is challenging it's not unreasonably so given the plethora of tools Platinum has to offer.

Elite Four: Up till this point every Elite Four had at least one member with multiple Pokemon from the same evolution tree. While DP broke that mold, Platinum did so while keeping all Pokemon the same type which means a lot to me. And I don't like Unova's decision to restrict the initial matches to 4 Pokemon instead of 5. At this late stage of the games, 5 is absolutely warranted in my view.

Villains/story: Cyrus is an acquired taste it seems but as someone who has suffered from depression I can absolutely relate to him. To another poster's point regarding Pokemon being a near utopia therefore there's not a plausible reason to be depressed, I completely disagree. To me, depression is almost like a disease that could afflict anyone regardless of circumstance. And the trigger for that depression doesn't necessarily have to be explicitly explained through the game's dialogue. It can be, perhaps even preferably so, left up to the audience's interpretation. What makes Cyrus a villain is him choosing to cope with this disease through destructive means. Whereas Volkner (also from Sunnyshore) struggles with the same disease but is far more productive in how he chooses to cope. I also loved how Platinum interlaced Cyrus's plot driving motives with the legendary lore of Sinnoh. And Giratina in the Distortion World made for the best climax in the series for me.

Rival: Barry is the perfect friendly rival. He's quite strong with his final team being the strongest in the series till that point. And as the son of the head of the Battle Frontier there's a nice tie in there alluding to his potential. I also liked his character development learning patience to achieve better results after reflecting on his loss to Jupiter.

Regional dex: Staraptor and Luxray as staples are brought up a lot and I can't fully disagree. Staraptor especially since almost everyone has a Flier and it just stands so far above the competition. Crobat and Drifblim are decent but not in the same class, and removing Honchkrow was a mistake. Luxray though while good is not essential. There are other great options like Jolteon and Magnezone if you're willing to wait a bit. Across important types like Electric, Water, Fighting, Psychic, Ground, etc. there are probably no fewer than 3-4 viable options to mix and match with, which is plenty for me. So while yes many Sinnoh teams have Staraptor and Luxray due to their overall excellence, I don't agree that that speaks to the dearth of options across the rest of the dex generally.

Difficulty/level curve: Mars 1, Jupiter 1, Fantina, Wake, Cyrus 3, Lucian, and Cynthia are seven fights over the course of the game which I think are challenging but not unreasonably so. First three fights in the beginning of the game, last three in the end, and Wake roughly in the middle. And I find the challenge of traversing Sinnoh's treacherous terrain to be pretty fulfilling actually. Platinum's a game you need some planning for with respect to HMs and taking down specific bosses (Fantina and Cynthia especially). But again they give you a ton of tools to play with and I find the difficulty curve to be relatively smooth throughout without any crazy spikes.

Graphics/art style: I've come to appreciate Gen 5's over world graphics but their pixelated battle graphics still pale in comparison to Gen 4. Gen's 4 & 5 were the peak of pixel art in my opinion (though Crystal has aged tremendously well).

Again, this is all hugely subjective. At this point I can only see BW2 as a legitimate contender to dethrone Platinum for me. But the latter just nails it across so many key categories that make a great Pokemon game that I find it unlikely my opinion will change.
 
Appreciate the response, I'll expand on what I can. I'll preface this by saying - I'm not a fan of the Sinnoh games, I'm a fan of Platinum very specifically. The original DP might be my least favorite game(s) in the series with a host of problems ranging from AI, to regional dex, to art style... just to name a few. Platinum improves these games in almost every conceivable way. But my least favorite thing about these games might be the fact that people often conflate DP and Platinum's issues, forcing us Platinum fans to fire fight DP's issues rather than focus on the objectively far superior game. It almost feels like the sterling reputation of Platinum is sullied by the mere existence of DP.

So focusing on Platinum:

Champion: I like Cynthia's character design because it emanates power and elegance with a perfect team to fit that bill. Garchomp is also an excellent Pokemon to spotlight as her ace. And while her team is challenging it's not unreasonably so given the plethora of tools Platinum has to offer.

Elite Four: Up till this point every Elite Four had at least one member with multiple Pokemon from the same evolution tree. While DP broke that mold, Platinum did so while keeping all Pokemon the same type which means a lot to me. And I don't like Unova's decision to restrict the initial matches to 4 Pokemon instead of 5. At this late stage of the games, 5 is absolutely warranted in my view.

Villains/story: Cyrus is an acquired taste it seems but as someone who has suffered from depression I can absolutely relate to him. To another poster's point regarding Pokemon being a near utopia therefore there's not a plausible reason to be depressed, I completely disagree. To me, depression is almost like a disease that could afflict anyone regardless of circumstance. And the trigger for that depression doesn't necessarily have to be explicitly explained through the game's dialogue. It can be, perhaps even preferably so, left up to the audience's interpretation. What makes Cyrus a villain is him choosing to cope with this disease through destructive means. Whereas Volkner (also from Sunnyshore) struggles with the same disease but is far more productive in how he chooses to cope. I also loved how Platinum interlaced Cyrus's plot driving motives with the legendary lore of Sinnoh. And Giratina in the Distortion World made for the best climax in the series for me.

Rival: Barry is the perfect friendly rival. He's quite strong with his final team being the strongest in the series till that point. And as the son of the head of the Battle Frontier there's a nice tie in there alluding to his potential. I also liked his character development learning patience to achieve better results after reflecting on his loss to Jupiter.

Regional dex: Staraptor and Luxray as staples are brought up a lot and I can't fully disagree. Staraptor especially since almost everyone has a Flier and it just stands so far above the competition. Crobat and Drifblim are decent but not in the same class, and removing Honchkrow was a mistake. Luxray though while good is not essential. There are other great options like Jolteon and Magnezone if you're willing to wait a bit. Across important types like Electric, Water, Fighting, Psychic, Ground, etc. there are probably no fewer than 3-4 viable options to mix and match with, which is plenty for me. So while yes many Sinnoh teams have Staraptor and Luxray due to their overall excellence, I don't agree that that speaks to the dearth of options across the rest of the dex generally.

Difficulty/level curve: Mars 1, Jupiter 1, Fantina, Wake, Cyrus 3, Lucian, and Cynthia are seven fights over the course of the game which I think are challenging but not unreasonably so. First three fights in the beginning of the game, last three in the end, and Wake roughly in the middle. And I find the challenge of traversing Sinnoh's treacherous terrain to be pretty fulfilling actually. Platinum's a game you need some planning for with respect to HMs and taking down specific bosses (Fantina and Cynthia especially). But again they give you a ton of tools to play with and I find the difficulty curve to be relatively smooth throughout without any crazy spikes.

Graphics/art style: I've come to appreciate Gen 5's over world graphics but their pixelated battle graphics still pale in comparison to Gen 4. Gen's 4 & 5 were the peak of pixel art in my opinion (though Crystal has aged tremendously well).

Again, this is all hugely subjective. At this point I can only see BW2 as a legitimate contender to dethrone Platinum for me. But the latter just nails it across so many key categories that make a great Pokemon game that I find it unlikely my opinion will change.
I may disagree with you, but I appreciate this in-depth response, gives me a good look into the opinion. Thank you!
 
Villains/story: Cyrus is an acquired taste it seems but as someone who has suffered from depression I can absolutely relate to him. To another poster's point regarding Pokemon being a near utopia therefore there's not a plausible reason to be depressed, I completely disagree. To me, depression is almost like a disease that could afflict anyone regardless of circumstance. And the trigger for that depression doesn't necessarily have to be explicitly explained through the game's dialogue. It can be, perhaps even preferably so, left up to the audience's interpretation. What makes Cyrus a villain is him choosing to cope with this disease through destructive means. Whereas Volkner (also from Sunnyshore) struggles with the same disease but is far more productive in how he chooses to cope. I also loved how Platinum interlaced Cyrus's plot driving motives with the legendary lore of Sinnoh. And Giratina in the Distortion World made for the best climax in the series for me.
I suppose I can get behind this, though I'm not sure if I'd diagnose Cyrus in this way. At the end of the day, what kills him for me is that he spends most of his time on-screen making an argument that comes off as completely nonsensical given the context, but I can understand how his general airs would be relatable to someone who has struggled with depression/general antipathy.
 
I’ve been lurking around here for a while after I posted my tier list, and I want to talk about Black 2 & White 2 for a bit and explain why I still haven’t been convinced they’re the best. On my tier list I had these games in A Tier which is pretty good considering my nostalgia blinded brain only had one definitive S Tier. That being said, my biggest issue with these games comes from my own time growing up when Gen 5 was current.

Back then, I loved Gen 5 coming off of my introduction to the franchise and remember hating most of X & Y when those games came out. Nowadays it’s hard to find people who dislike Gen 5, specifically these sequels, as much as they did back then. The point I’m trying to make here is that, for me, a lot of the appeal of Unova for me came from liking something a lot of people didn’t like, much like how I enjoy spin-offs more than the core series much of the time. I’m all for underrated games getting the attention they deserve after so long, but the difference here is that now I think the Unova sequels are a bit overrated instead of underrated.

Let’s look at these games a bit closer. By this point it’s common knowledge that we got these instead of a third version “Pokémon Grey” or whatever, but a noticeable portion of the main story still feels like what you’d see in a third version, roughly from Castelia to Mistralton. The beginning and the end, as much as those parts of Unova remind me of Johto’s overreliance on Kanto, at least take the player to new locations. Across all three “parts” of this campaign, too, the addition of older Pokémon is both a good and a bad thing, taking away some of the novelty from the first games that came from having to familiarize yourself with the newer Pokémon. To be fair, I don’t have as many criticisms about Black 2 & White 2’s postgame as I do the main story, but between all four versions of Unova games, only one city is a postgame location in all of them, and there are still the more nitpicking absences of things like the Battle Frontier, various side activities, and so forth.

In my original post on this thread, I said that I’d rank HeartGold & SoulSilver as my favorites if I had to pick one (one that’s not Guardian Signs, anyway), and the reason I’m not as harsh on those as I am Black 2 & White 2 is because, for all of their issues that weren’t addressed from Gen 2, these games strike a fantastic balance between being a remake and being a sequel, carrying some novelty of their own in being the only games that are both. HeartGold & SoulSilver’s biggest strengths for me came from how they revitalized and really made the world feel alive in ways that go beyond just “is this a fundamentally good game?” HGSS and B2W2 have a lot in common, but the key difference are the improvements that were made as opposed to the changes that were just substituted for new content.
 
1736892274707.png


This is probably a weird chart to look at, so let me explain.

I think Game Freak has a very interesting - and also very difficult - job to do in that they have to make Pokemon games as both single-player RPGs and as multi-player competitive games, and have them operate using largely the same systems. Most of the posts in this thread are assessing these games purely as single-player RPGs - and that's not a bad thing, Orange Islands is the in-game section of the forums, after all - but I think Pokemon's multiplayer is also one of its most unique aspects and something that merits discussion as well in terms of "what's the best Pokemon game"? For that reason, I find the alignment chart more useful than the tier list, because it's hard to compare a game like Crystal and a game like Sword and Shield on one axis. I certainly enjoy one game more than the other, but they succeed in different areas, I think.

To clarify, when I refer to multiplayer I'm not just talking about the competitive metagame as experienced on Showdown. The games are the basis for these unofficial metagames, of course, but there's a lot more factors that go into it: accessibility, co-op features, things like that. So when I label Crystal (representing all of Gen 2) as a somewhat poor multiplayer experience, my take is not based on Snorlax being too good in Gen 2 OU or what have you, but rather that I think the Gen 2 games are lackluster in terms of their multiplayer features.

I should also probably mention that I'm not including Stadium 1 or 2 in my assessments of Gen 1 or 2. This is because I have not played them. Those minigames look really fun though

As for an explanation of each game, as brief as I can manage:

  • Gen 1 is a solid, competent RPG that laid the groundwork for Pokemon's formula. Good stuff. I wasn't sure how to rank the game's multiplayer, exactly, because this was downright revolutionary for its time but feels somewhat clunky in hindsight - but I think you'd have a fair argument that it should be higher up on this axis just for being the first to do it. I'm not sure how Pokemon compares to most other RPGs on the Game Boy from its era, but I think it's actually managed to stand the test of time fairly well and is still fun and worthwhile to experience today despite being fairly basic. While definitely not designed around competitive play, I think it's noteworthy that a competitive scene thrived around the game regardless - the game's systems just lend themselves really well to that. (FRLG side-bar: I don't think it improves much over the original games, and its rigid insistence on excluding Gen 2 and 3 content until the Sevii Islands quests is really lame. But it does benefit from Gen 3's improvements, and the Sevii Islands themselves are a great addition, so I think they're overall a better experience.)
  • Gen 2 rules as an RPG, but I think it's the weakest of the non-Legends games as a multiplayer experience by a longshot. Ultimately, it has a very different ethos in how it handles itself than every other game in the series in the franchise, and I think it ends up being a really fun and magical experience. Basically every single new 'mon in the game besides the starters requires you to engage with one of the new mechanics it implemented, and I think that rules! 20 years removed from this game I think it's very easy to nitpick at its flaws, and I don't think it's a bad thing at all that the series has moved away from some of Gen 2's decisions, but it's a game that very much rewards exploration, experimenting with the new mechanics, and taking things day-by-day, and I think there's merit to that. More than other game, the region of Johto has really stuck with me over time, and I think the way Gen 2 is designed as an RPG has a lot to do with that. (So does nostalgia.) I think the Battle Tower in Crystal is also a huge deal: this is the first time a mainline game has had a true post-game to it, and gives you a challenge to constantly work towards improving at. As for the multiplayer: Breeding is a huge step forward for incentivizing trading and making competitive more accessible, but every other choice these games make feels like a big step back. (HGSS side-bar: Gen 4 improvements + overall beneficial changes to the experience make it an improvement as an RPG, and of course a massive improvement in terms of multiplayer. I love following Pokemon + the Pokeathlon so much oh my god)
  • Hoenn is pretty cool. I don't think I feel as positively about it as most people do but it's still a fun region and a very good set of games. My opinion of it has actually improved over time (concurrent with how my feelings on HMs have improved over time, actually. More on that later) - Hoenn's eco and bio-diversity is really cool and captures that feeling of adventure really well. My big complaint about Gen 3's singleplayer is Team Aqua and Magma, marking the start of what I'll call the "evil team era" that lasts from Gens 3-6 - I think the evil teams are among the weakest parts of all these games. The introduction of Abilities is a massive deal on both the RPG and multiplayer fronts, and between better in-game teams and the introduction of the Battle Frontier I think that GF was getting a much better grasp on how to handle difficulty. Contests are also a huge deal for implementing some non-battling content - it's a huge breath of fresh air for both multiplayer and singleplayer. (ORAS side-bar: The removal of the Battle Frontier is evened out by the implementation of DexNav, Soaring, and general Gen 6 QoL stuff to create a singleplayer experience that is mostly equivalent in quality, different in practice for me. It's obviously a big improvement in multiplayer just because of Gen 6's changes, but not allowing Contests to be played online was idiotic.)
  • Gen 4 is a big fucking deal, because this gen introduced online functionality - it's a massive shift in how these games are experienced in terms of multiplayer. Beforehand, these games were designed with local play in mind - which is functional for the urban Japanese demographic that these games were targeting, but often difficult to utilize in places with lower population density. Online play changes the game completely. Introducing online battling and trading alone is enough to warrant a high score in the multiplayer category. The introduction of VGC during this time period also suggests greater emphasis being placed on the multiplayer experience by GF and TPC, whereas the games beforehand were single-player experiences first and multiplayer games second. Conversely, though, it highlights a major problem that we've seen but hasn't been too impactful yet: The process of getting competitive-ready 'mons is downright painful, and it makes the competitive scene borderline inaccessible unless you're willing to hack. Because of this, there exists an inherent tension between Gen 4 as a singleplayer game and as a multiplayer game, when the two elements should ideally be working in harmony. Also, it's moronic that contests weren't made available on online for these games. As for the singleplayer: Sinnoh in DP sucks, but Sinnoh in Platinum is fantastic. It's kind of incredible what Platinum did for this region. Team Galactic as a whole is the worst part of singleplayer regardless of DP or Platinum, but Platinum's climax in the Distortion World is so good that it almost justifies everything else. Johto still feels like the most fully-realized region to me, but Sinnoh is in 2nd place for me. (Don't ask about BDSP. I refuse to acknowledge those games.)
  • Gen 5 is one of my favorite generations, but I don't actually have much to say here. It's a unilateral improvement over Gen 4 in terms of multiplayer, of course - reusable TMs does a lot for competitive accessibility, and the Dream World was a cute little activity that could get you some neat benefits. The removal of the Battle Frontier hurts my soul, but otherwise the singleplayer experience is great. I think B2W2 is more fun to play than BW overall, but I think BW has the second-best narrative in the series, and I appreciate how it took steps to distance itself from the previously-Japan inspired regions and tries to define its own identity - something that B2W2 misses a bit. Gen 5 is part of the evil team era, but I think it actually manages to avoid most of the evil team pitfalls - they have a strong enough role in the story that I think their presence adds to the game rather than detracts from it.
  • X and Y are the weakest singleplayer RPGs up until this point. GF had a difficult task beforehand in translating Literally Every Single Pokemon into 3D, and I don't think it's a surprise that the singleplayer campaign suffers as a result. Kalos is a gorgeous region, but feels a bit shallow. There's a huge Pokedex which makes the collection aspect fun, but a paper-thin narrative and extremely dull boss battles make the singleplayer experience ring hollow in a way that none of the other games have felt so far. Every section with Team Flare is absolutely miserable and among the nadir of this series. I wanted to get that out of the way, because Gen 6 is the single biggest jump the series has made in terms of multiplayer after Gen 4, and I think it'll stay that way for a long time. The PSS is the sleekest interface this series has ever seen, the changes made to breeding made competitive so much more accessible, and overall it's just a great experience. I think X and Y has suffered the most out of any games from having the plug pulled on its online features - the experience feels strangely empty without them.
  • Gen 7 is the apex of this series. Sun and Moon feature the best narrative and character work, USUM has the best gameplay (both in terms of singleplayer and in competitive, imo), and the introduction of Bottle Caps finally completed the generations-long process of making competitive play accessible. I haven't really touched on graphics up until this point just because there's too much to go over as is, but I think Alola is also the best graphical work that GF has ever done, and really pushes the 3DS to its limits as a system. The evil team era officially ends here, with Team Skull not having a stupid doomsday plot and the story really revolving around Lillie as its emotional core rather than any apocalyptic stakes (well, save for Ultra Necrozma in USUM) - and that's massively to the game's benefit. idk what the hell GF was thinking with the Festival Plaza, though. That was a major step back. By all accounts it should have massively improved on Join Avenue, but it just feels halfbaked in practice. That's only my second biggest complaint, however: I think that the removal of HMs was a huge misstep, and that GF should have tried to compromise more on how HMs work in response to negative feedback rather than axe the feature altogether. No game handles your 'mons better as individual creatures thanks to how Refresh is woven into the game, but at the same time I think it takes a lot away from the singleplayer experience that you're not using your own Pokemon to traverse the world. My take on HMs probably warrants its own comment in another thread, so I'll leave it there.
  • I do not care for SWSH. They're by far the weakest singleplayer games in the series, imo, even after DLC. I'm actually really conflicted on how about how I feel about these games' online features, though. I tried really hard not to let my hatred of Dynamax influence my opinion on these games' multiplayer as a whole - Nature Mints and Ability Patches are big accessibility improvements, and Raids are a huge step forward in terms of co-op play that I think the series should continue to implement - but I think relegating the GTS to Home was a huge blow, and there's the unfortunate detail that I think Raids as implemented in this series so far are really, really really unfun. SWSH kinda completes the process of weaving in the singleplayer experience with the multiplayer experience, and I'd be delusional not to acknowledge that Raids are a highly popular and beloved feature, however.
  • LGPE are weird to assess here. I don't like the GO mechanics in a singleplayer game and I don't think it changes up the Kanto experience enough to justify its existence from that lens, but the introduction of co-op play in the overworld is a huge deal that warrants a high multiplayer ranking. I'll never play these games again, but that's just because they're not for me and that's alright.
  • PLA doesn't really have multiplayer, per se. Great singleplayer campaign. I probably shouldn't have included it here to begin with, but I think it's technically a mainline game? I don't know.
  • Oh, SV. I like Indigo Disc quite a lot, but I think the rest of the main campaign kinda blows, even if I do think it has a strong narrative. This game feels legitimately incomplete, and that really negatively hampers the experience for me. I hope that future games take the open world template and make massive improvements on it, because as it stands, Paldea just does not click for me. I still kinda hate raids, but I'd be remiss not to acknowledge the positive changes made to them here, and the implementation of co-op play ala LGPE is really cool and warrants praise. These games feel less like complete experiences in their own right and more like a sign of what's to come for this series - and that's simultaneously really positive in the long-term but also really damning about how I feel about the games themselves.
That was a lot of words, yet I still don't feel like I said even half of what I wanted to say. Instead of continuing, though, I'll just end this with a simple tier list of the mainline games without any further commentary or attempted analysis. The only criteria here is how much I do or don't like playing them - because that's honestly what matters most here.

1736893764636.png
 
View attachment 704750

This is probably a weird chart to look at, so let me explain.

I think Game Freak has a very interesting - and also very difficult - job to do in that they have to make Pokemon games as both single-player RPGs and as multi-player competitive games, and have them operate using largely the same systems. Most of the posts in this thread are assessing these games purely as single-player RPGs - and that's not a bad thing, Orange Islands is the in-game section of the forums, after all - but I think Pokemon's multiplayer is also one of its most unique aspects and something that merits discussion as well in terms of "what's the best Pokemon game"? For that reason, I find the alignment chart more useful than the tier list, because it's hard to compare a game like Crystal and a game like Sword and Shield on one axis. I certainly enjoy one game more than the other, but they succeed in different areas, I think.

To clarify, when I refer to multiplayer I'm not just talking about the competitive metagame as experienced on Showdown. The games are the basis for these unofficial metagames, of course, but there's a lot more factors that go into it: accessibility, co-op features, things like that. So when I label Crystal (representing all of Gen 2) as a somewhat poor multiplayer experience, my take is not based on Snorlax being too good in Gen 2 OU or what have you, but rather that I think the Gen 2 games are lackluster in terms of their multiplayer features.

I should also probably mention that I'm not including Stadium 1 or 2 in my assessments of Gen 1 or 2. This is because I have not played them. Those minigames look really fun though

As for an explanation of each game, as brief as I can manage:

  • Gen 1 is a solid, competent RPG that laid the groundwork for Pokemon's formula. Good stuff. I wasn't sure how to rank the game's multiplayer, exactly, because this was downright revolutionary for its time but feels somewhat clunky in hindsight - but I think you'd have a fair argument that it should be higher up on this axis just for being the first to do it. I'm not sure how Pokemon compares to most other RPGs on the Game Boy from its era, but I think it's actually managed to stand the test of time fairly well and is still fun and worthwhile to experience today despite being fairly basic. While definitely not designed around competitive play, I think it's noteworthy that a competitive scene thrived around the game regardless - the game's systems just lend themselves really well to that. (FRLG side-bar: I don't think it improves much over the original games, and its rigid insistence on excluding Gen 2 and 3 content until the Sevii Islands quests is really lame. But it does benefit from Gen 3's improvements, and the Sevii Islands themselves are a great addition, so I think they're overall a better experience.)
  • Gen 2 rules as an RPG, but I think it's the weakest of the non-Legends games as a multiplayer experience by a longshot. Ultimately, it has a very different ethos in how it handles itself than every other game in the series in the franchise, and I think it ends up being a really fun and magical experience. Basically every single new 'mon in the game besides the starters requires you to engage with one of the new mechanics it implemented, and I think that rules! 20 years removed from this game I think it's very easy to nitpick at its flaws, and I don't think it's a bad thing at all that the series has moved away from some of Gen 2's decisions, but it's a game that very much rewards exploration, experimenting with the new mechanics, and taking things day-by-day, and I think there's merit to that. More than other game, the region of Johto has really stuck with me over time, and I think the way Gen 2 is designed as an RPG has a lot to do with that. (So does nostalgia.) I think the Battle Tower in Crystal is also a huge deal: this is the first time a mainline game has had a true post-game to it, and gives you a challenge to constantly work towards improving at. As for the multiplayer: Breeding is a huge step forward for incentivizing trading and making competitive more accessible, but every other choice these games make feels like a big step back. (HGSS side-bar: Gen 4 improvements + overall beneficial changes to the experience make it an improvement as an RPG, and of course a massive improvement in terms of multiplayer. I love following Pokemon + the Pokeathlon so much oh my god)
  • Hoenn is pretty cool. I don't think I feel as positively about it as most people do but it's still a fun region and a very good set of games. My opinion of it has actually improved over time (concurrent with how my feelings on HMs have improved over time, actually. More on that later) - Hoenn's eco and bio-diversity is really cool and captures that feeling of adventure really well. My big complaint about Gen 3's singleplayer is Team Aqua and Magma, marking the start of what I'll call the "evil team era" that lasts from Gens 3-6 - I think the evil teams are among the weakest parts of all these games. The introduction of Abilities is a massive deal on both the RPG and multiplayer fronts, and between better in-game teams and the introduction of the Battle Frontier I think that GF was getting a much better grasp on how to handle difficulty. Contests are also a huge deal for implementing some non-battling content - it's a huge breath of fresh air for both multiplayer and singleplayer. (ORAS side-bar: The removal of the Battle Frontier is evened out by the implementation of DexNav, Soaring, and general Gen 6 QoL stuff to create a singleplayer experience that is mostly equivalent in quality, different in practice for me. It's obviously a big improvement in multiplayer just because of Gen 6's changes, but not allowing Contests to be played online was idiotic.)
  • Gen 4 is a big fucking deal, because this gen introduced online functionality - it's a massive shift in how these games are experienced in terms of multiplayer. Beforehand, these games were designed with local play in mind - which is functional for the urban Japanese demographic that these games were targeting, but often difficult to utilize in places with lower population density. Online play changes the game completely. Introducing online battling and trading alone is enough to warrant a high score in the multiplayer category. The introduction of VGC during this time period also suggests greater emphasis being placed on the multiplayer experience by GF and TPC, whereas the games beforehand were single-player experiences first and multiplayer games second. Conversely, though, it highlights a major problem that we've seen but hasn't been too impactful yet: The process of getting competitive-ready 'mons is downright painful, and it makes the competitive scene borderline inaccessible unless you're willing to hack. Because of this, there exists an inherent tension between Gen 4 as a singleplayer game and as a multiplayer game, when the two elements should ideally be working in harmony. Also, it's moronic that contests weren't made available on online for these games. As for the singleplayer: Sinnoh in DP sucks, but Sinnoh in Platinum is fantastic. It's kind of incredible what Platinum did for this region. Team Galactic as a whole is the worst part of singleplayer regardless of DP or Platinum, but Platinum's climax in the Distortion World is so good that it almost justifies everything else. Johto still feels like the most fully-realized region to me, but Sinnoh is in 2nd place for me. (Don't ask about BDSP. I refuse to acknowledge those games.)
  • Gen 5 is one of my favorite generations, but I don't actually have much to say here. It's a unilateral improvement over Gen 4 in terms of multiplayer, of course - reusable TMs does a lot for competitive accessibility, and the Dream World was a cute little activity that could get you some neat benefits. The removal of the Battle Frontier hurts my soul, but otherwise the singleplayer experience is great. I think B2W2 is more fun to play than BW overall, but I think BW has the second-best narrative in the series, and I appreciate how it took steps to distance itself from the previously-Japan inspired regions and tries to define its own identity - something that B2W2 misses a bit. Gen 5 is part of the evil team era, but I think it actually manages to avoid most of the evil team pitfalls - they have a strong enough role in the story that I think their presence adds to the game rather than detracts from it.
  • X and Y are the weakest singleplayer RPGs up until this point. GF had a difficult task beforehand in translating Literally Every Single Pokemon into 3D, and I don't think it's a surprise that the singleplayer campaign suffers as a result. Kalos is a gorgeous region, but feels a bit shallow. There's a huge Pokedex which makes the collection aspect fun, but a paper-thin narrative and extremely dull boss battles make the singleplayer experience ring hollow in a way that none of the other games have felt so far. Every section with Team Flare is absolutely miserable and among the nadir of this series. I wanted to get that out of the way, because Gen 6 is the single biggest jump the series has made in terms of multiplayer after Gen 4, and I think it'll stay that way for a long time. The PSS is the sleekest interface this series has ever seen, the changes made to breeding made competitive so much more accessible, and overall it's just a great experience. I think X and Y has suffered the most out of any games from having the plug pulled on its online features - the experience feels strangely empty without them.
  • Gen 7 is the apex of this series. Sun and Moon feature the best narrative and character work, USUM has the best gameplay (both in terms of singleplayer and in competitive, imo), and the introduction of Bottle Caps finally completed the generations-long process of making competitive play accessible. I haven't really touched on graphics up until this point just because there's too much to go over as is, but I think Alola is also the best graphical work that GF has ever done, and really pushes the 3DS to its limits as a system. The evil team era officially ends here, with Team Skull not having a stupid doomsday plot and the story really revolving around Lillie as its emotional core rather than any apocalyptic stakes (well, save for Ultra Necrozma in USUM) - and that's massively to the game's benefit. idk what the hell GF was thinking with the Festival Plaza, though. That was a major step back. By all accounts it should have massively improved on Join Avenue, but it just feels halfbaked in practice. That's only my second biggest complaint, however: I think that the removal of HMs was a huge misstep, and that GF should have tried to compromise more on how HMs work in response to negative feedback rather than axe the feature altogether. No game handles your 'mons better as individual creatures thanks to how Refresh is woven into the game, but at the same time I think it takes a lot away from the singleplayer experience that you're not using your own Pokemon to traverse the world. My take on HMs probably warrants its own comment in another thread, so I'll leave it there.
  • I do not care for SWSH. They're by far the weakest singleplayer games in the series, imo, even after DLC. I'm actually really conflicted on how about how I feel about these games' online features, though. I tried really hard not to let my hatred of Dynamax influence my opinion on these games' multiplayer as a whole - Nature Mints and Ability Patches are big accessibility improvements, and Raids are a huge step forward in terms of co-op play that I think the series should continue to implement - but I think relegating the GTS to Home was a huge blow, and there's the unfortunate detail that I think Raids as implemented in this series so far are really, really really unfun. SWSH kinda completes the process of weaving in the singleplayer experience with the multiplayer experience, and I'd be delusional not to acknowledge that Raids are a highly popular and beloved feature, however.
  • LGPE are weird to assess here. I don't like the GO mechanics in a singleplayer game and I don't think it changes up the Kanto experience enough to justify its existence from that lens, but the introduction of co-op play in the overworld is a huge deal that warrants a high multiplayer ranking. I'll never play these games again, but that's just because they're not for me and that's alright.
  • PLA doesn't really have multiplayer, per se. Great singleplayer campaign. I probably shouldn't have included it here to begin with, but I think it's technically a mainline game? I don't know.
  • Oh, SV. I like Indigo Disc quite a lot, but I think the rest of the main campaign kinda blows, even if I do think it has a strong narrative. This game feels legitimately incomplete, and that really negatively hampers the experience for me. I hope that future games take the open world template and make massive improvements on it, because as it stands, Paldea just does not click for me. I still kinda hate raids, but I'd be remiss not to acknowledge the positive changes made to them here, and the implementation of co-op play ala LGPE is really cool and warrants praise. These games feel less like complete experiences in their own right and more like a sign of what's to come for this series - and that's simultaneously really positive in the long-term but also really damning about how I feel about the games themselves.
That was a lot of words, yet I still don't feel like I said even half of what I wanted to say. Instead of continuing, though, I'll just end this with a simple tier list of the mainline games without any further commentary or attempted analysis. The only criteria here is how much I do or don't like playing them - because that's honestly what matters most here.

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My take on this chart

This isn't a reflection of quality because (I like Legends Arceus)
 
View attachment 704759

My take on this chart

This isn't a reflection of quality because (I like Legends Arceus)

In hindsight, I think I should have named my vertical axis "Good Singleplayer" and "Bad Singleplayer", since I meant to assess them less in terms of the genre and more in terms of how strong I thought the singleplayer experience with these games is. I'd be curious to hear why you think a game like PLA classifies as a poor RPG, though - same thing for Yellow.
 
In hindsight, I think I should have named my vertical axis "Good Singleplayer" and "Bad Singleplayer", since I meant to assess them less in terms of the genre and more in terms of how strong I thought the singleplayer experience with these games is. I'd be curious to hear why you think a game like PLA classifies as a poor RPG, though - same thing for Yellow.
I view Legends Arceus as more of a turn-based collectathon than an RPG.

In a way in my head I view catching new Pokemon for it like collecting Stars in I dunno, Mario 64, and then the gates for progress are the research points.

It's fun, but the turn-based combat, the action RPG elements, all of it is a backdrop to just Finishing Tasks and collecting things. Not that RPGs can't be about collecting things or finishing tasks, plenty of games (including other Pokemon games) have that as a part of their side content. But PLA feels to me, albeit arbitrarily one may argue, a Collectathon First, everything else is just dressing to it.

Pokemon Yellow IDK it's just, relatively to the rest of the series, a lot worse at promoting RPG stuff. To me story is a big part of the RPG experience and Yellow fails at it entirely imo, and the game doesn't really feel like it wants to immerse you as much as the later series does.
 
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