what I have learned and why it helps me enjoy this format

Braverius

snowls
is a Past SPL Champion
hello friends

I wanted to take a moment in lieu of Swagger being banned and reflect on the reasons why I enjoy this format. No, this isn't passive-aggressively saying that I disagree; rather, I think it's good in a way but also that I don't think it was up there on the priority list when you take a look at the format and see what other issues it currently has. I also think Swagger was moderately healthy in this format because of other problems and that in an ideal world you shouldn't have those problems, but we still do. So I can't be upset about banning Swagger, but I feel like the things it dealt with are going to get a tick stronger and that's kind of terrifying.



I want to point out a few of the key things that healthier formats have here (at least imo) and what this one can do to replicate that. It's tricky with the power creep of megas, but I think with some testing it can be done.

1) Successful formats play rather slowly, but not too slowly

I don't think heavy stall is a good sign of a format, but I also don't think things like Talonflame and Azumarill being very common is a good sign of a format. Setup is good as well as stall-ish play, and there should be a counterbalance of both that ends up in a relatively enjoyable pace. Games in this format reasonably should last 16-24 turns given it's 6v6 and that's good because the timer is a friend in cases where you aren't getting spooky.

Are we close?: Sorta, but some games get run away with. Azumarill is a big problem and I would argue that Hoopa also speeds up games unnecessarily. Protecting and actually surviving neutral hits makes games take longer and both I would argue are incredibly important.

What can be done?: Suspecting Hoopa and maybe Belly Drum. Azumarill is interesting because it has one job and it's somewhat easy to tech for, but I think it poses an issue that I'll cover in the next bullet point. Hoopa can't really be fixed here and encourages nothing but breakneck play and constant problems in this regard. Setting up Trick Room takes a turn or two and maybe compensates, but it isn't necessarily competitive, tactical play as much as it is flowcharty play and I think it's pretty bad here.



2) Matchups should be encouraged to be as balanced as possible, and archetype diversity is generally a bad thing as a result.

Before you get a bug-type up your butt about me saying diversity isn't cool, let me
explain. The best way to have a stable, actually competitive format is to make an even matchup as possible as possible (ha!) at team preview. This typically means a slightly lower amount of wildly different archetypes. I'd argue that pace/ style of play and archetypes do sort of go hand-in-hand, but not as much as archetype diversity and format quality. Example: Diancie is a relatively healthy mega and interacts well with Kangaskhan. This format lends similar Pokemon options and similar pace/style of play options to teams featuring each of those megas, and that's pretty neat.

Are we close: In some ways yes, in other ways no. What is nice the amount of incredibly neutral, versatile Pokemon that can't take over a game but promote nothing but tactical play. Heatran, Landorus-T, Volcanion, Aegislash, Kyurem-B, Rotom-W, Cresselia, Hydreigon, and Keldeo are really healthy Pokemon for the format and serve as nothing but boons for it. None of them run away with games, and all of them can be reigned in but none of them can be "stopped" completely and that's pretty much exactly what you want out of your healthy Pokemon. However, things that start getting power-tipsy still exist in DOU and they define team archetypes a lot
more than the supplemental Pokemon listed above. Camerupt, Hoopa, Azumarill, even Charizard and Gardevoir sometimes (although not enough to justify any action) can get really game-swingy. It isn't the type of game swing that takes some intense skill and foresight to set up, either; it's straight up playing to matchup advantage. It's impossible to prepare adequately for everything listed there (plus the things I didn't mention), and one of them can take away a game and run with it.

This is basically a byproduct of 6v6, but also can probably be easily fixed. One of the most obnoxious things in this format is running onto the ladder, seeing a team with three Trick Room setters and a Camerupt, and having a team built to handle Trick Room in general but not for the entire goddamn game. It's a matchup gamble that the opponent takes rather than using a team that has any chance of competing during a game the majority of the time, and it's bad to encourage. The same type of thing goes for Azumarill; you're typically either really prepared or really aren't, and the consequences for you being not are devastating for you, and the consequences of you being really prepared are somewhat devastating for your opponent... until they don't bring Azumarill, which then turns the problem to you being slightly weaker than you need to be against the rest of the field. This is pretty clearly unhealthy, and it's because of the matchup problems. You can't afford soft answers to things like this, and making it a choice of matchup preparedness is a very clear sign that something is wrong with the format.

What can be done?: Carefully identifying the major perpetrators of this very problem and strongly considering suspect testing. I obviously don't think a Mega Camerupt suspect is worthwhile because the presence of three Trick Room users on a single team is the main issue here; moreover, multiple TR users on a team is a thing beyond shitty ladder teams, so it's worth a look. It's possible to prepare for, but given the vast range of options that are more reasonable to prepare for than a somewhat potential bad matchup, it's the odd one out in terms of format health and requires tools in order to stop adequately that you wouldn't use against basically anything else. Same goes for Azumarill, which makes shit like Discharge, Sludge Wave, and Haze Volcanion look good. And Roar! Which would only be used for both Azu and TR. And man, you know shit's getting raunchy when Roar sounds like a good tech for it.


3) There are competitively healthy moves and competitively healthy interaction and both deserve to be protected.

One of the coolest things about Doubles is the added layer of defense mechanism with double switching and protecting. There's a certain amount of instability about the many different opportunities for play that two Pokemon on the other side of the field pose compared to one, and having fail-safe ways of handling that instability balances the game really well. Moves like Protect and Substitute are really good ways to neutrally help here, and maneuvers like defensive switching are pinnacles of the game. The type chart should matter as much as reasonably possible, and the metagame should ideally be incredibly interactive to promote tactical play rather than mapped out, flowchart play (for an extreme example, see VGC 16 and how typing barely matters at all).

When a person calls that Landorus-T switch and Cresselia Ice Beams a Heatran and drops the scary flying cat in one fell swoop, it's fantastic. The opportunity cost was moderately low and the reward was pretty high, but in the end it was risk management on both sides and a relatively low-stakes play that created a pretty dynamic result. The only way that person had a chance for their play to work was if the opponent did exactly what they deemed to be a reasonable play. There wasn't a chance of it working if the opponent switched into, say, Rotom-W or Jirachi, and sometimes there are two or three viable switches.


Are we close?: In the case of something like Kangaskhan, Gardevoir, a +6 Azumarill, or Hoopa, you're usually getting slammed for 50% or more damage regardless of what you do. And in the case of Hoopa since it breaks your protection, this is especially true. There's no way to mitigate this by using Substitute in front of Kangaskhan or Hoopa or Gardevoir. You have to suck it up and take it and that typically really blows. It doesn't promote tactical play; you're able to spam a move and it's no-risk high-reward and you did nothing to earn that position other than using that Pokemon or strategy. It's one thing to set your Volcarona up to +3 and then hammer away with Heat Waves; it took /four turns/ for this to get going and the opponent had ample opportunity to do something about it. Kangaskhan, Gardevoir, Azumarill, and Hoopa give you either zero or one turn, and none of them have really strong techs. The strongest universal techs here, Amoonguss and Aegislash, are pretty much torn a new asshole by Hoopa.

What can be done?: While Kangaskhan and Gardevoir are sorta shitty because of what's mentioned here, and given that Kangaskhan does get some bad setup cheese and Gardevoir can sneak Trick Room on, neither are substantially problematic enough to do anything about, as they also have plenty of good things they bring to the table. Working on slightly enabling the things that stop them is a much better way to work. Aegislash, Amoonguss, Landorus-T, and Gengar are really solid soft checks to these two. And in the case of three of those things, Hoopa is a huge nuisance and definitely the easiest thing to pin the issues on. Azumarill doesn't particularly like Aegislash or Amoonguss, so it's not the worst thing ever here given the objective.


All in all, we should take a close look at Azumarill and maybe multiple users of the same strategy (Tailwind, Trick Room, etc), but I don't think they're really the only problem here and could very well be not that big of an issue. However, on every front, Hoopa is a problem and there isn't a very direct answer to the direct problem that functions super well in Trick Room other than the underachieving Mawile, and the indirect answers get punished pretty hard because of a 100 base power STAB move that breaks protection and has pretty few resistances.

I know there were a few people that gave me shit for hating Hoopa because I'm a neanderthal VGC player and obviously don't understand it, but I've actually used it pretty extensively and played enough in the format with it around. I thought it was really iffy for the format initially, and the more I play against it, the more generally unpleasant I find it. I just want to clarify my thoughts on the format and how I actually feel since I mostly have joke tangents and purposely passive-aggressive comments about things. There's substance to this one, though, and enough that I think it should be considered more strongly than it currently is for a suspect test.



Also in relation to the Swagger ban, it's kinda funny that Swagger is a decent answer to Azumarill and helps at times vs Hoopa. It's a dickhead way to beat dickhead Pokemon and I think removing it removes a strong option against things that probably KO you anyway most of the time that probably shouldn't be in the format to begin with, either.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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good read

I do just want to say btw before Hoopa-U came out there were lots of people, including council, pushing to quickban it. That vote was 4-5. Basically, it was something that just barely enough of us thought would be playable to give it a chance and if we needed to properly test it later we would... But since then it has turned out that most people do think it is a balanced Pokemon. It's not used all that much frankly and when it is, its w/l is roughly 1. It certainly doesn't dominate games in general, even if it does obviously have a large impact due to its ability to powerfully break protect and ignore subs.

Based on that close quickban vote, we certainly all expected that it would need a test someday. The only reason it hasn't is that 1) no one has demanded it and 2) stats don't really back up that it is broken.


edit: council vote post
 
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Checkmater

It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
is a Tiering Contributor
So I found this post a little difficult to fully understand but this is the gist I got... I don't want to get into my own thoughts before I make sure I fully understand yours and your points

The way I understand this is that you point out some issues that you'd like to see resolved in the current meta

Namely, the power of strong attackers that lack safe / easy counterplay (the list being Kangaskhan, Gardevoir, Azumarill, Hoopa-U) and that these threats encourage "flowcharty" (I like this phrase don't know if it's a word) play by simply being overwhelmingly powerful in too many situations.

In addition, it seems that you take issue in particular with forms of Speed Control (basically defining aspects of various archetypes) as being too difficult to prepare for or too various to be able to account of every kind (my takeaway from the example of 3 setters + MCamerupt), and that these various archetypes combined with Azumarill makes far-fetched options like Roar viable which shouldn't be happening.
 
On the topic of the swagger ban, something that most VGC players who have been playing the 2016 format (such as myself) have been resorting to is actually inaccurate sleep moves (the biggest one being hypnosis on bronzong [yes most people use gravity with it, but the goal of a blind hypnosis, as it's called, is an effective 60% chance to immobilize your opponent, compared to swaggers effective 45%]), which basically have the same effect as a swagger, if anything more likely to have that positive effect. Now I'm not the highest rated, and I don't play DOU as much as the next guy, but I do think techs like grass whistle instead of swagger on your whimsicott could replace the purpose of swagger itself for some people if they want to use it. Just a thought.
 

DragonWhale

It's not a misplay, it's RNG manipulation
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Personally a good format promotes as much player influence in the game as possible, and I think your points sum that thought nicely. It's what makes DOU my favorite Smogon tier, as most of the Pokemon inside have risks and benefits large enough to require skillful play while simultaneously providing counterplay for my opponent. I guess a large part of this has to do with the fact that it's doubles, as every turn has a lot more options compared to singles and therefore gives more opportunities to outplay the opponent. VGC16 is doubles too but there's a lot of problems there that limit player influence too much to make it a good format (like completely failing in regards to points 1 and 3 of your post).

Swagger was something that I feel removed too much player influence, and I'm glad it's gone from DOU. Of course there are a lot of other major moves like Rock Slide and Thunder Wave that have elements that are completely out of the players' control, but they do serve other purposes in the form of damage output and speed control respectively, and therefore have guaranteed tactical value. Sure it's a shame it removes an option that helps deal with +6 Azu and to a lesser extent Hoopa-U and PuP Kang, but I think the benefits outweigh the cost with this decision.

Regarding Azu, I'm inclined to agree with you that it is a problem. There's very limited counterplay compared to the insane benefits that this pokemon provides in a battle. Personally I thought the Jirachi suspect should've been Azumarill instead, as the argument "Jirachi makes Azumarill good" held far more truth the other way around. It works regardless of speed control, it's bulky enough to survive faster priority, and completely destroys many cores. Even the universal techs in Aegislash and Amoonguss get OHKOed by the recently more common Knock Off variants.

I think Hoopa-U is a bit less of a problem in comparison because it does have a lot more counterplay considering its frailty and lack of priority, but it's true that if the conditions are set right it will muscle through regardless of type advantages. However I think Azu should definitely be higher up on the priority list. It's even got people memeing to bring back ubers like Mega Salamence (granted I wasn't here personally to see how busted it was, but setting up boosts is definitely a lot easier in a 6v6 format compared to 4v4 looking at Azu and Kang) and Shaymin, which hints that a lot of people are of the opinion that Azumarill should be restrained somehow.
 
basically the reaction I expected but you're still disregarding the reasoning behind why VGC players have been using Hypnosis on Bronzong and other inaccurate sleep moves. It's effectively swagger in how its a chance to immobilize your opponent, but is more likely to do so as compared to swagger.
 

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