I'm gonna put forward Steely Spirit. Perrserker, the sole owner of the ability, chooses to run Tough Claws over it despite the incredible boost it gives to its STAB moves. However, when combined with the 1.2x boost from our form changing item, the power we can dish out through our Steel moves can become extremely threatening (2x STAB * 1.5x Steely Spirit * 1.2x Item = 3.6 boost). This helps out our offensive ability significantly since Steel hits most viable pokemon in the tier neutrally or resisted.
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What If? - Alternate Timelines (AT #8 - Steel/Fighting Venomicon-E: Stats Submissions)
- Thread starter kenn
- Start date
damn I was gonna put forth Steely Spirit but Sceptic beat me to the punch pensive emoji
I also want to suggest Steelworker as an alternative - considering that we already get STAB on Steel-type moves it essentially acts as a counterpart/variant of Steely Spirit.
Two other Abilities I really like here are Stakeout and Guard Dog. Stakeout needs no introduction - it's a truly absurd ability stuck on early game shitmons that just don't have the offensive capability to utilize it. Guard Dog is an ability I bet a lot of people here don't even know exists, but one that I think has a lot of potential. The only two Pokemon with this ability are Mabosstiff (early game shitmon and has two way better Abilities in Intimidate and, ironically, the aforementioned Stakeout) and Okidogi (whose other Ability, Toxic Chain, is much, much better for it). It prevents opponents from forcing the Pokemon with the ability to switch and boosts Attack if Intimidated rather than lowering it. It's a really intriguing Ability that has a lot of potential for both punishing Intimidate and for setting up sweeps.
I also want to suggest Steelworker as an alternative - considering that we already get STAB on Steel-type moves it essentially acts as a counterpart/variant of Steely Spirit.
Two other Abilities I really like here are Stakeout and Guard Dog. Stakeout needs no introduction - it's a truly absurd ability stuck on early game shitmons that just don't have the offensive capability to utilize it. Guard Dog is an ability I bet a lot of people here don't even know exists, but one that I think has a lot of potential. The only two Pokemon with this ability are Mabosstiff (early game shitmon and has two way better Abilities in Intimidate and, ironically, the aforementioned Stakeout) and Okidogi (whose other Ability, Toxic Chain, is much, much better for it). It prevents opponents from forcing the Pokemon with the ability to switch and boosts Attack if Intimidated rather than lowering it. It's a really intriguing Ability that has a lot of potential for both punishing Intimidate and for setting up sweeps.
Steely Spirit/Steelworker
Steely Spirit/Steelworker
Steely Spirit/Steelworker
Rattled
yolo
yolo
Steely Spirit/Steelworker
Rattled
Steely Spirit/Steelworker
Okay so I gave this time in hopes the tie would be broken, but alas it is time we move on so I shall break the tie! With that, Steely Spirit/Steelworker is the winner!
Now onto defining moves...as we want AT Venomicon-P to be more defensive and AT Venomicon-E to be more offensive, just like their ST counterparts, we shall approach this stage with caution as we want to give each forme the chance to shine without making the other one OP so with that in mind, here are a few guiding questions to answer as you suggest potential moves that could define our stats!
Now onto defining moves...as we want AT Venomicon-P to be more defensive and AT Venomicon-E to be more offensive, just like their ST counterparts, we shall approach this stage with caution as we want to give each forme the chance to shine without making the other one OP so with that in mind, here are a few guiding questions to answer as you suggest potential moves that could define our stats!
This stage shall end in ~72 hours. Have fun!
This is actually perfect because it was one of the discussed typings in a concept I’m considering for CAP 36, so this is an excellent proving ground, and hopefully one that can become canon
There are 2 schools of thought. Either a decent attacker with typing to make up for defences, or a tank with priority moves to make up for speed. Steel/Fighting has some handy tools for both
Gigaton Hammer
Yep, I went there. This combination of typing and ability present us with the unique scenario of potentially delivering a ridiculously absurd amount of damage with minimal consideration for the attack stat. I’ve done the math weeks ago; it’s insane. I feel like I SHOULD mention GH, simply because the opportunity is there. It’s a huge damage move balanced by being a mid STAB and a move you can’t use twice in a row. There would obviously need to be more than that, but wow is that a nuclear option
Bullet Punch/Mach Punch
Vacuum Wave fits this as well. I’m just focusing on physical moves since that’s the majority of this combination. Bullet Punch essentially becomes 90 base power with Steelworker, AND has priority. Obviously a very diversely operating tool
There are 2 schools of thought. Either a decent attacker with typing to make up for defences, or a tank with priority moves to make up for speed. Steel/Fighting has some handy tools for both
Gigaton Hammer
Yep, I went there. This combination of typing and ability present us with the unique scenario of potentially delivering a ridiculously absurd amount of damage with minimal consideration for the attack stat. I’ve done the math weeks ago; it’s insane. I feel like I SHOULD mention GH, simply because the opportunity is there. It’s a huge damage move balanced by being a mid STAB and a move you can’t use twice in a row. There would obviously need to be more than that, but wow is that a nuclear option
Bullet Punch/Mach Punch
Vacuum Wave fits this as well. I’m just focusing on physical moves since that’s the majority of this combination. Bullet Punch essentially becomes 90 base power with Steelworker, AND has priority. Obviously a very diversely operating tool
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I’d like to discuss the (frankly obvious) Body Press. It has amazing synergy with WBB, and allows us to squeeze more out of the defense stat.
I’d also like to second Gigaton Hammer (low attack + BP + Gigaton = defensive behemoth), and to further balance this, to make it’s second form mainly a special attacker
Since moves would likely be shared between the two, i’d never want to see gigaton come off an attack stat higher than 90, ESPECIALLY with steely spirit
As for coverage, i still want this thing to be walled fairly well by ghosts, so no dark moves, but 60-80 BP Fire Coverage seems like it’d be nice to at least offensively check gholdengo, as well as iron crown (and other mons i likely missed)
It’s also fitting flavour wise, leaning into it’s “well baked body” - think about it like how gliscor gets a lot of poison moves, but isnt poison type.
I’d also like to second Gigaton Hammer (low attack + BP + Gigaton = defensive behemoth), and to further balance this, to make it’s second form mainly a special attacker
Since moves would likely be shared between the two, i’d never want to see gigaton come off an attack stat higher than 90, ESPECIALLY with steely spirit
As for coverage, i still want this thing to be walled fairly well by ghosts, so no dark moves, but 60-80 BP Fire Coverage seems like it’d be nice to at least offensively check gholdengo, as well as iron crown (and other mons i likely missed)
It’s also fitting flavour wise, leaning into it’s “well baked body” - think about it like how gliscor gets a lot of poison moves, but isnt poison type.
Physical focus seems like a no-brainer here, it provides the most synergy with our typing offensively as Fighting types have way more physical options than special ones.
Speaking of no-brainers, Body Press is an amazing stab option particularly for our more defensive form. It synergizes amazingly from potential defense boosts from Well Baked Body and allows AT Venom-P to bulk up and become threatening offensively at the same time. This can obviously be combined with Iron Defense or another form of defensive Setup.
Outside of that, I can imagine strong fighting options that can work between both forms, such as Close Combat and Drain Punch, with Drain Punch specifically providing longevity for both bulky and offensive roles.
I can also see this mon running strong Steel type stab such as Heavy Slam and Gyro Ball, in order to take advantage of the offensive ability of Steelworker/Steely Spirit.
It’s important to note that any move chosen would be shared between both forms. Despite this, I can see both these forms being incredibly setup heavy, one focused on defense boosted Body Presses and the other stacking multipliers with its Ability and Item boosting Steel type attacks. I think it’d be reasonable to include Iron Defense and Swords Dance.
I believe a lack of coverage can help balance a Pokemon with such synergistic STAB and abilities. I also think forgoing coverage allows for more of the power budget to be spent on stats.
Speaking of no-brainers, Body Press is an amazing stab option particularly for our more defensive form. It synergizes amazingly from potential defense boosts from Well Baked Body and allows AT Venom-P to bulk up and become threatening offensively at the same time. This can obviously be combined with Iron Defense or another form of defensive Setup.
Outside of that, I can imagine strong fighting options that can work between both forms, such as Close Combat and Drain Punch, with Drain Punch specifically providing longevity for both bulky and offensive roles.
I can also see this mon running strong Steel type stab such as Heavy Slam and Gyro Ball, in order to take advantage of the offensive ability of Steelworker/Steely Spirit.
It’s important to note that any move chosen would be shared between both forms. Despite this, I can see both these forms being incredibly setup heavy, one focused on defense boosted Body Presses and the other stacking multipliers with its Ability and Item boosting Steel type attacks. I think it’d be reasonable to include Iron Defense and Swords Dance.
I believe a lack of coverage can help balance a Pokemon with such synergistic STAB and abilities. I also think forgoing coverage allows for more of the power budget to be spent on stats.
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Curse + Body Press + Gyro Ball is goofy enough to work. It is similarly cohesive to the Coil + Gunk Shot interaction, and matches the direction this hypothetical has gone.
So I definitely think we have some solid choices here for defining moves. It seems to me that most are in agreement that we want both formes to lean physical (with a potential for Epilogue to be leaning special) while also having some form of defensively inclined setup via Iron Defense/Curse/Bulk Up, so without further ado it is time to reveal the defining moves!
Required: Steel STAB/s (Iron Head/Heavy Slam), Fighting STAB/s (Close Combat/Body Press), Iron Defense
Optional: Gigaton Hammer, Bulk Up, Bullet Punch, Curse, Gigaton Hammer, Gyro Ball, Swords Dance
Prologue BSR Limits:
Reminder that these will be for AT Venomicon-P's stats as we will be doing AT Venomicon-E's stats after voting on AT Venomicon-P's stats.
I will give ~96 hours to submit a stat spread! Can't wait to see what y'all bring to the table!
Required: Steel STAB/s (Iron Head/Heavy Slam), Fighting STAB/s (Close Combat/Body Press), Iron Defense
Optional: Gigaton Hammer, Bulk Up, Bullet Punch, Curse, Gigaton Hammer, Gyro Ball, Swords Dance
Prologue BSR Limits:
Penalties:
Reminder that these will be for AT Venomicon-P's stats as we will be doing AT Venomicon-E's stats after voting on AT Venomicon-P's stats.
I will give ~96 hours to submit a stat spread! Can't wait to see what y'all bring to the table!
85/110/125/70/85/40 (BST: 510)
PS: 72.41
SS: 56.37
PT: 129.87
ST: 93.88
BSR: 481.52
Defining Moves: Body Press, Gyro Ball, Drain Punch, Curse
Wulfanator sold me on Curse Gyro Ball, so I went full slow with this spread. This extremely slow speed allows Gyro Ball to consistent reach near 150 BP without risking the warping effects of Gigaton Hammer. With great physical bulk and solid special bulk, Body Press and Gyro Ball in combination can become deadly after 2 Curses, and Drain Punch provides necessary recovery. Well Baked Body adds additional bonuses to defense which all in all make this a terrifying defensive sweeper.
PS: 72.41
SS: 56.37
PT: 129.87
ST: 93.88
BSR: 481.52
Defining Moves: Body Press, Gyro Ball, Drain Punch, Curse
Wulfanator sold me on Curse Gyro Ball, so I went full slow with this spread. This extremely slow speed allows Gyro Ball to consistent reach near 150 BP without risking the warping effects of Gigaton Hammer. With great physical bulk and solid special bulk, Body Press and Gyro Ball in combination can become deadly after 2 Curses, and Drain Punch provides necessary recovery. Well Baked Body adds additional bonuses to defense which all in all make this a terrifying defensive sweeper.
0 SpA Equilibra Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 228-270 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Equilibra: 432-510 (105.8 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Cresceidon Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 84-100 (27 - 32.1%) -- 49.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Cresceidon: 218-257 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. +2 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 164-194 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Gyro Ball (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 327-385 (88.1 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Equilibra: 432-510 (105.8 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Cresceidon Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 84-100 (27 - 32.1%) -- 49.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Cresceidon: 218-257 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. +2 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 164-194 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Gyro Ball (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 327-385 (88.1 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
120/108/95/60/80/64 (BST: 527)
PS: 87.90
SS: 62.12
PT: 120.41
ST: 106.06
BSR: 519.46
Defining Moves: Body Press, Gigaton Hammer, Bullet Punch, Mach Punch
First time submitting a BSR and I am excited for it! This spread is designed with priority moves in mind, while also taking advantage of the base damage GH offers, and not necessarily needing to boost at all. Pretty much like that manhole cover NASA launched (look that up)
PS: 87.90
SS: 62.12
PT: 120.41
ST: 106.06
BSR: 519.46
Defining Moves: Body Press, Gigaton Hammer, Bullet Punch, Mach Punch
First time submitting a BSR and I am excited for it! This spread is designed with priority moves in mind, while also taking advantage of the base damage GH offers, and not necessarily needing to boost at all. Pretty much like that manhole cover NASA launched (look that up)
It has been a long minute for the stats stage to be open, but life had me busy and then sick so I am finally feeling better which means we can move this to voting!
85/110/125/70/85/40 (BST: 510) by Scepticskep
120/108/95/60/80/64 (BST: 527) by IronTemplar
Once this voting stage is over in 24 hours, we will move onto submitting stats for AT Venomicon-E! :)
85/110/125/70/85/40 (BST: 510) by Scepticskep
120/108/95/60/80/64 (BST: 527) by IronTemplar
Once this voting stage is over in 24 hours, we will move onto submitting stats for AT Venomicon-E! :)
85/110/125/70/85/40 (BST: 510) by Scepticskep
120/108/95/60/80/64 (BST: 527) by IronTemplar