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What If? - Alternate Timelines (AT #8 - Steel/Fighting Venomicon: Epilogue Ability Discussion)
- Thread starter kenn
- Start date
Magic Guard
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Psychic Surge
Download
Magic Guard
Psychic Surge
I think Psychic Surge is the best option, but since I was the one to suggest it, my second choice would be Adaptability.
Download
Ending voting a tad early but the results are in and...
Psychic Surge is our winner!
With that we are going into the defining moves for AT Hemogoblin!
For reference, here are the ones that were for Sacred Timeline (which will now be known as ST for the future) Hemogoblin!
What moves may be considered too much? How much of our power budget do we wanna spend here? Do we wanna save the majority of that budget for stats despite us still being "bang average" going into the stats stage?
Feel free to answer this when suggesting defining moves for AT Hemo, but no requirement to do so! I do wanna see some good explanation as to why something like Lumina Crash would be warranted or if Expanding Force is a good or bad idea though should you suggest these moves (and this goes for all moves btw lol).
Submissions will end ~Friday September 13th! Have fun!
Psychic Surge is our winner!
Psychic Surge - ||||||||||| (11)
Magic Guard - ||||||| (7)
Multiscale - (0)
Speed Boost - (0)
Download - ||||||| (7)
Adaptability - || (2)
Soul-Heart - || (2)
Magic Guard - ||||||| (7)
Multiscale - (0)
Speed Boost - (0)
Download - ||||||| (7)
Adaptability - || (2)
Soul-Heart - || (2)
For reference, here are the ones that were for Sacred Timeline (which will now be known as ST for the future) Hemogoblin!
Obviously there is going to be a vast difference in these for AT Hemo from ST Hemo, but I wanna go into this stage with a couple questions:
What moves may be considered too much? How much of our power budget do we wanna spend here? Do we wanna save the majority of that budget for stats despite us still being "bang average" going into the stats stage?
Feel free to answer this when suggesting defining moves for AT Hemo, but no requirement to do so! I do wanna see some good explanation as to why something like Lumina Crash would be warranted or if Expanding Force is a good or bad idea though should you suggest these moves (and this goes for all moves btw lol).
Submissions will end ~Friday September 13th! Have fun!
Expanding Force is the obvious move to address, as it can get pretty absurd in Psychic Terrain, stacking its own multiplier on top of the terrain multiplier and then STAB on top of that. This can lead to some insane damage output, but given our bang average statline it almost certainly isn't too much, particularly since we can build stats around Expanding Force.
However, if we feel like Expanding Force is a bit too much, Terrain Pulse is a great option with slightly lower power than Expanding Force in Psychic Terrain and significantly lower power outside of it. This is worth considering, since nerfing our Special Attack to account for Expanding Force could damage our ability to use our Fire-type STAB effectively, unless we try to make a mixed attacking build work.
It's also worth talking about pivoting moves. As a terrain setter, it's probably in our best interest to have one of U-Turn/Volt Switch/Parting Shot. If we go for a more defensive or utility-oriented route, this will be absolutely essential and is possibly the easiest way to make AT Hemogoblin viable.
However, if we feel like Expanding Force is a bit too much, Terrain Pulse is a great option with slightly lower power than Expanding Force in Psychic Terrain and significantly lower power outside of it. This is worth considering, since nerfing our Special Attack to account for Expanding Force could damage our ability to use our Fire-type STAB effectively, unless we try to make a mixed attacking build work.
It's also worth talking about pivoting moves. As a terrain setter, it's probably in our best interest to have one of U-Turn/Volt Switch/Parting Shot. If we go for a more defensive or utility-oriented route, this will be absolutely essential and is possibly the easiest way to make AT Hemogoblin viable.
With Hemos process in mind, i have kinda soured on Interpretations of average stats allowing for extreme outliers. Vile and Bases spread really does encapsulate The average Stat perfectly, whereas Talonflame or Breloom, which have been cited as average, in my mind Just dont fulfill this requirement.
With that in mind and an ability which doesnt as easily circumvent stats as pixilate plus espeed did, i believe that moves IS The only place we have, to spend a significant amount of our Power Budget and i am of the opinion, that every ounce we can get out of our Stabs and possible boosting/utility/coverage is necessary to allow a truly average spread. I dont think any move is too much here, with maybe the exception of boosting moves that boost Speed and Special Attack, given the priority blocking that Psychic Terrain provides.
Notable non general options are Expanding Force, Photon Geyser, Armor Cannon, Eruption, Shift Gear, Tail Glow to Name a few very strong ones. I agree that pivoting might come in Handy If a Set Up Route IS Not desired as IT would allow for choice scarf and Team Support Sets. To me this also includes Healing Wish or Memento.
With that in mind and an ability which doesnt as easily circumvent stats as pixilate plus espeed did, i believe that moves IS The only place we have, to spend a significant amount of our Power Budget and i am of the opinion, that every ounce we can get out of our Stabs and possible boosting/utility/coverage is necessary to allow a truly average spread. I dont think any move is too much here, with maybe the exception of boosting moves that boost Speed and Special Attack, given the priority blocking that Psychic Terrain provides.
Notable non general options are Expanding Force, Photon Geyser, Armor Cannon, Eruption, Shift Gear, Tail Glow to Name a few very strong ones. I agree that pivoting might come in Handy If a Set Up Route IS Not desired as IT would allow for choice scarf and Team Support Sets. To me this also includes Healing Wish or Memento.
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I hadn't even thought about Torch Song before Kenn mentioned it, but I actually think that could be really cool. Expanding Force is the obvious build-around, but I think Torch Song and Expanding Force together would be absolutely busted. Thus, I would like to second sun_dew's idea of Terrain Pulse and then adding in Torch Song.
The reason I think this should be fine is because, with bad stats and a bad defensive typing, this Hemogoblin is not going to live much. Thus, instead of just using Torch Song repeatedly basically no matter what (*cough* Skeledirge *cough*), it should theoretically be able to predict a switch and get some chip, then follow up with another song or a terrain pulse.
Given that torch song+terrain pulse seems to be going for a special build, I'd rather not use U-Turn unless it's really getting overpowered and needs a nerf; I like both Parting Shot and Volt Switch, but personally I'd rather use Volt Switch.
The reason I think this should be fine is because, with bad stats and a bad defensive typing, this Hemogoblin is not going to live much. Thus, instead of just using Torch Song repeatedly basically no matter what (*cough* Skeledirge *cough*), it should theoretically be able to predict a switch and get some chip, then follow up with another song or a terrain pulse.
Given that torch song+terrain pulse seems to be going for a special build, I'd rather not use U-Turn unless it's really getting overpowered and needs a nerf; I like both Parting Shot and Volt Switch, but personally I'd rather use Volt Switch.
ooooooooh, it's cooking time 
I personally think that Special AT Hemo is a necessity. I mean, come on: if this thing is PsySurge, there is an extremely high chance it's a Special Attacker, right? This is why I set up two different routes for the silly little goober:
1.
Trick Room Setting Supporter
As we all know, Hemogoblin is slow. Not as slow as Hatterene, the queen of Trick Room, but still very slow. Wait... considerably slow? Mid stats? PsySurge setter?! This seems rather familiar, doesn't it? That's right, Indeedee-F! I could go on and on about the similarities between these two, but I think Hemogoblin would be more of a Singles TR setter than Indeedee-F, with access to Will-o-Wisp, hazards (Stealth Rock and Spikes), Recover, Volt Switch, and Knock Off, compared to Indeedee-F with Follow Me and Helping Hand.
2.
PsySurge Breaker/Sweeper
This is the part where I talk if we need Expanding Force. Well, it depends whether or not we have Torch Song on this thing. If yes, we use Terrain Pulse instead of EForce (as people before me have mentioned). If not, then yes, we can give AT Hemo Expanding Force. Give Hemo coverage in Thunderbolt/Thunder, Moonblast, and Scald, and this thing is ready to go!
I personally think that Special AT Hemo is a necessity. I mean, come on: if this thing is PsySurge, there is an extremely high chance it's a Special Attacker, right? This is why I set up two different routes for the silly little goober:
1.
As we all know, Hemogoblin is slow. Not as slow as Hatterene, the queen of Trick Room, but still very slow. Wait... considerably slow? Mid stats? PsySurge setter?! This seems rather familiar, doesn't it? That's right, Indeedee-F! I could go on and on about the similarities between these two, but I think Hemogoblin would be more of a Singles TR setter than Indeedee-F, with access to Will-o-Wisp, hazards (Stealth Rock and Spikes), Recover, Volt Switch, and Knock Off, compared to Indeedee-F with Follow Me and Helping Hand.
2.
This is the part where I talk if we need Expanding Force. Well, it depends whether or not we have Torch Song on this thing. If yes, we use Terrain Pulse instead of EForce (as people before me have mentioned). If not, then yes, we can give AT Hemo Expanding Force. Give Hemo coverage in Thunderbolt/Thunder, Moonblast, and Scald, and this thing is ready to go!
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Expanding Force is clearly a favorite, as the stacking of EForce boosting to 120 + Terrain Boost + STAB is already threatening enough to turn an average pokemon into a threat. However, if we do go with Expanding Force, it would most likely restrict us from giving other significant tools to seperate it from other EForce spammers like Indeedee and Armarouge. So I wanted to mention another move I think this AT CAP could utilize.
Torch Song was mentioned earlier, and I think this move is a good method of snowballing this mon from average to a strong special sweeper. In a similar vein, I'd like to propose Esper Wing as a potential option. Esper Wing is an 80 BP Psychic Move which boosts speed by one stage and has an increased crit rate. This move also assists in snowballing a mon into sweeper territory as it begins to outspeed every mon that comes out. This goes well with PsyTerrain blocking priority, preventing the speed boost from being shut down by a strong priority move like Sucker Punch or Aqua Jet. It's a reliable stab move, boosted by psyterrain, and has an increased crit rate, all of which can make up for this mon's lackluster offensive stats. I think a combination of Torch Song and Esper Wing can provide this CAP a unique snowballing playstyle, rather than relying on high BP moves.
Torch Song was mentioned earlier, and I think this move is a good method of snowballing this mon from average to a strong special sweeper. In a similar vein, I'd like to propose Esper Wing as a potential option. Esper Wing is an 80 BP Psychic Move which boosts speed by one stage and has an increased crit rate. This move also assists in snowballing a mon into sweeper territory as it begins to outspeed every mon that comes out. This goes well with PsyTerrain blocking priority, preventing the speed boost from being shut down by a strong priority move like Sucker Punch or Aqua Jet. It's a reliable stab move, boosted by psyterrain, and has an increased crit rate, all of which can make up for this mon's lackluster offensive stats. I think a combination of Torch Song and Esper Wing can provide this CAP a unique snowballing playstyle, rather than relying on high BP moves.
Expanding Force is absolutely the best move to consider. From my recent experience with it, I would say Esper Wing, essentially providing a special Flame Charge, with even greater benefit thanks to the power boost from Psychic Terrain, and the priority lock to shut off moves that would otherwise ignore speed
I think considering the options, Expanding Force is of course the go-to, but since we are discussing high powered options, I'll also throw in Eruption since considering Bang Average, it'll want high powered moves to make up for the middling stats. I also would suggest allowing Volt Switch as an option to get in and out of the field effectively.
Even though it has only been a couple of days, I think enough discussion has been had about AT Hemogoblin's Defining Moves, so with that here they are:
Required:
Psychic, Psyshock, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat
Terrain Pulse
At least one of: U-Turn or Volt Switch
Optional:
Armor Cannon
Eruption
Esper Wing
Expanding Force
Lumina Crash
Torch Song
Now as we move onto Stats, since most of us are leaning towards special, I have only included the Special Stat Limits from ST Hemo's process. I also figured to give an option similar to the Boomburst option in ST Hemo's process, but for Lumina Crash should one wanna submit a stat spread with that move in mind.
Required:
Psychic, Psyshock, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat
Terrain Pulse
At least one of: U-Turn or Volt Switch
Optional:
Armor Cannon
Eruption
Esper Wing
Expanding Force
Lumina Crash
Torch Song
Now as we move onto Stats, since most of us are leaning towards special, I have only included the Special Stat Limits from ST Hemo's process. I also figured to give an option similar to the Boomburst option in ST Hemo's process, but for Lumina Crash should one wanna submit a stat spread with that move in mind.
I am gonna allow stat subs for a good minute (because I know they take time and effort to fine tune) so I would say I'll give until just under a week and have us start voting on Monday September 16th.
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HP: 95
Atk: 60
Def: 90
SpA: 100
SpD: 85
Spe: 70
BST: 500
PS: 61.27
SS: 93.78
PT: 104.21
ST: 99.93
BSR: 497.55
This is an Esper Wing + Torch Song spread! Not sure if it actually would work in practice, but having two boosting attacking moves sounds like a fun time! I think the Speed and Special Attack are low enough where neither are too intimidating after only +1 but are in a good place to really get some work done at +2.
Atk: 60
Def: 90
SpA: 100
SpD: 85
Spe: 70
BST: 500
PS: 61.27
SS: 93.78
PT: 104.21
ST: 99.93
BSR: 497.55
This is an Esper Wing + Torch Song spread! Not sure if it actually would work in practice, but having two boosting attacking moves sounds like a fun time! I think the Speed and Special Attack are low enough where neither are too intimidating after only +1 but are in a good place to really get some work done at +2.
this a little harsh but
HP: 85
Attack: 20
Defense: 85
Special Attack: 80
Special Defense: 85
Speed: 15
BST: 375
BSR: 395
SS: 110
PS: 40
S: 30
PT: 110
ST: 105
This is a AT Hemo set with a really sucky BST, but the spread is pretty good. 85/85/85 bulk is something to be quite proud of. This spread is for a movepool with Volt Switch and everything except for Esper Wing, but it probably won't be needing it, because this thing also gets Trick Room, turning it from meh to destroyer of worlds.
HP: 85
Attack: 20
Defense: 85
Special Attack: 80
Special Defense: 85
Speed: 15
BST: 375
BSR: 395
SS: 110
PS: 40
S: 30
PT: 110
ST: 105
This is a AT Hemo set with a really sucky BST, but the spread is pretty good. 85/85/85 bulk is something to be quite proud of. This spread is for a movepool with Volt Switch and everything except for Esper Wing, but it probably won't be needing it, because this thing also gets Trick Room, turning it from meh to destroyer of worlds.
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