YamiTheYin 's Cephalumin
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What If? - Alternate Timelines (AT Shox [Wall + No Recovery] - Concept Assessment!)
- Thread starter kenn
- Start date
Enci2 's Fusilodge
With a very close vote, Cephalumin is the winner so congratulations to the one and only YamiTheYin !
And with that we now can begin on the next AT! This one is gonna be a visit back to a semi-recent CAP in Ramnarok, but this time we will be exploring an entirely new concept in Defensive Transformation!
As a refresher, the concept in question is below:
And with that we now can begin on the next AT! This one is gonna be a visit back to a semi-recent CAP in Ramnarok, but this time we will be exploring an entirely new concept in Defensive Transformation!
As a refresher, the concept in question is below:
For the first time ever, we will be opening up this AT with a concept assessment like a normal process to discuss the direction we want to take with a defensive transformation. Answer the "Questions To Be Answered" section of the quoted post when discussing the direction you believe we should take with the defensive transformation. I will leave this open until ~Friday and we will go from there. Let's have some extreme fun!
Happy to be back in the AT
For this early assessment I think it's worth considering two facets. The first is how two types can compliment each other defensively. The second is how different types act defensively at switch-in versus on the field.
The first is the more straight-forward facet. A defensively-oriented Pokemon that can change its type will want to maximize it defensive profile. Although, because this Pokemon can change types dynamically from turn to turn, it's not solely having the most resistances. Minimizing and covering weaknesses across its two forms is equally viable. Defensive Tera types are a good framework to look at for inspiration.
The second facet is a bit more nuanced but is something brought up all the time in CAP proper. There are plenty of defensivly-strong types and they accomplish this in different ways. Maybe it's how they interact with entry hazards. Maybe it's how they resist common moves. Maybe it's their immunity to status conditions or certain move categories.
For this early assessment I think it's worth considering two facets. The first is how two types can compliment each other defensively. The second is how different types act defensively at switch-in versus on the field.
The first is the more straight-forward facet. A defensively-oriented Pokemon that can change its type will want to maximize it defensive profile. Although, because this Pokemon can change types dynamically from turn to turn, it's not solely having the most resistances. Minimizing and covering weaknesses across its two forms is equally viable. Defensive Tera types are a good framework to look at for inspiration.
The second facet is a bit more nuanced but is something brought up all the time in CAP proper. There are plenty of defensivly-strong types and they accomplish this in different ways. Maybe it's how they interact with entry hazards. Maybe it's how they resist common moves. Maybe it's their immunity to status conditions or certain move categories.
hi imakenosense here, present to (potentially) be present for this at the request of someone suggesting me to this part of CAP. time to dump.
I believe the success of a defensive transformation entirely depends on the typing. No one is going to see an Ice/Grass type and expect it to live a whole bunch of hits due to just how many weaknesses the type has, especially to common offensive types like Fighting and Fire. At the same time, Ice type tends to lean more offensively appealing due to how good Ice is offensively, but how pitiful it is on the flip side.
Making a Pokemon with its defensive capabilities in mind relies entirely on how it covers its weaknesses, more-so than stats alone.
For example: Bastiodon- the one Game Freak tried to sell us as THE Shield Pokemon, fails immensely at just that because of its typing; despite it having the defining defensive type in Steel, it being paired with Rock (among other glaring issues like no recovery and low HP) makes for a combination that, again, falls to common offensive types like Fighting and Ground. Its astounding Defense stats couldn't make up for how awful it fairs against offensive pressure.
You simply cannot make this Pokemon have a bad typing if the intent is to give it a defensive profile. Both typings (or in the case of monotype, the type in general) must accent its potential after its transformation.
Sometimes though, I wonder if being defensive also implies the ability to defend against utility by "shutting down" opposing moves like those that clear hazards, or glaring weaknesses that can be avoiding by transforming to not just resist, but become immune to it (EQ weakness -> EQ immunity via Levitate/Flying type). Maybe then, the focus isn't strictly stat-changing into defense, but leaning into "transforming" the Pokemon out of danger and into pseudo-defense.
Last thing I want to bring up is that, in some ways, we have a Pokemon that is the poster child of Defense/Offense transformations: Aegislash. The way we go about having it transform could decide how well it performs its role. Does this Pokemon use King's Shield to transform, or does it use the infamous Relic Song? If a defensive Pokemon uses an offensive move to go defensive, would that offensive move have a way to block it from activating, like Normal v Ghost to stop it from going defensive? By going the King's Shield route, our defensive Pokemon will always be able to switch into defense.
hope i did my spiel right first time kinda nervous teehee
I believe the success of a defensive transformation entirely depends on the typing. No one is going to see an Ice/Grass type and expect it to live a whole bunch of hits due to just how many weaknesses the type has, especially to common offensive types like Fighting and Fire. At the same time, Ice type tends to lean more offensively appealing due to how good Ice is offensively, but how pitiful it is on the flip side.
Making a Pokemon with its defensive capabilities in mind relies entirely on how it covers its weaknesses, more-so than stats alone.
For example: Bastiodon- the one Game Freak tried to sell us as THE Shield Pokemon, fails immensely at just that because of its typing; despite it having the defining defensive type in Steel, it being paired with Rock (among other glaring issues like no recovery and low HP) makes for a combination that, again, falls to common offensive types like Fighting and Ground. Its astounding Defense stats couldn't make up for how awful it fairs against offensive pressure.
You simply cannot make this Pokemon have a bad typing if the intent is to give it a defensive profile. Both typings (or in the case of monotype, the type in general) must accent its potential after its transformation.
Sometimes though, I wonder if being defensive also implies the ability to defend against utility by "shutting down" opposing moves like those that clear hazards, or glaring weaknesses that can be avoiding by transforming to not just resist, but become immune to it (EQ weakness -> EQ immunity via Levitate/Flying type). Maybe then, the focus isn't strictly stat-changing into defense, but leaning into "transforming" the Pokemon out of danger and into pseudo-defense.
Last thing I want to bring up is that, in some ways, we have a Pokemon that is the poster child of Defense/Offense transformations: Aegislash. The way we go about having it transform could decide how well it performs its role. Does this Pokemon use King's Shield to transform, or does it use the infamous Relic Song? If a defensive Pokemon uses an offensive move to go defensive, would that offensive move have a way to block it from activating, like Normal v Ghost to stop it from going defensive? By going the King's Shield route, our defensive Pokemon will always be able to switch into defense.
hope i did my spiel right first time kinda nervous teehee
Oh man we're out of containment free to concept assess again, let's concept assess so bad.
I think speed is a very important aspect of the defensive transformation. If the pokémon is transforming before it can be hit, it has the possibility to flip the matchup and take reduced or no damage/status from the predicted opponent's choice. This can possibly be done in two ways:
1. Two speedy formes
2. One speedy, one slow forme
Two slow formes are tougher to make work for this concept as you will always be transforming after the opponent has already completed their intended action, which we can assume in most cases is something detrimental to the current AT Ram forme.
Two speedy formes have interesting implications. It is entirely possible to have two offensive formes that "dance" between the two formes to obtain some different defensive benefit in each. There, the defensive transformation actually becomes an offensive tool by allowing the attacker to remain for longer and wreak more havoc in its extended lifetime. It's also possible to do a variant of Cresceidon's concept, where two fast defensive pokémon switch between some sort of bias (typing matchups, physical vs specially defensive) to better wall the pokémon in front of them. This proactive way is a bit prediction reliant, though, as you expect opponents to perform a certain action and transform in response to to this assumption. This leaves the door open for some safer midground plays (like Knock Off, status) against us, but these can be dealt with in our later stages if we go this route. Just something to keep in mind.
A speedier forme to a slow forme transformation works interestingly if the speedier forme is offensive, and the slow forme is significantly bulkier and/or has a stellar defensive typing (while still retaining the option to have high offensive stats). As with Aegislash, I imagine that only the bulkier forme will be taking hits most of the time, being a cushion for the speedier forme. But unlike Aegislash, which transforms through King's Shield, we are transforming through an attack. This makes the slow -> fast reactive transformation an "offensive" transformation, or something akin to a slow pivot. These paired defensive-offensive transformations seem very cool, although it does look at somewhat familiar territory. But I think we have enough to differentiate ourselves.
Something I am also interested in is making CAP Song an important and often used part of the kit, which this concept can possibly facilitate very nicely.
I think speed is a very important aspect of the defensive transformation. If the pokémon is transforming before it can be hit, it has the possibility to flip the matchup and take reduced or no damage/status from the predicted opponent's choice. This can possibly be done in two ways:
1. Two speedy formes
2. One speedy, one slow forme
Two slow formes are tougher to make work for this concept as you will always be transforming after the opponent has already completed their intended action, which we can assume in most cases is something detrimental to the current AT Ram forme.
Two speedy formes have interesting implications. It is entirely possible to have two offensive formes that "dance" between the two formes to obtain some different defensive benefit in each. There, the defensive transformation actually becomes an offensive tool by allowing the attacker to remain for longer and wreak more havoc in its extended lifetime. It's also possible to do a variant of Cresceidon's concept, where two fast defensive pokémon switch between some sort of bias (typing matchups, physical vs specially defensive) to better wall the pokémon in front of them. This proactive way is a bit prediction reliant, though, as you expect opponents to perform a certain action and transform in response to to this assumption. This leaves the door open for some safer midground plays (like Knock Off, status) against us, but these can be dealt with in our later stages if we go this route. Just something to keep in mind.
A speedier forme to a slow forme transformation works interestingly if the speedier forme is offensive, and the slow forme is significantly bulkier and/or has a stellar defensive typing (while still retaining the option to have high offensive stats). As with Aegislash, I imagine that only the bulkier forme will be taking hits most of the time, being a cushion for the speedier forme. But unlike Aegislash, which transforms through King's Shield, we are transforming through an attack. This makes the slow -> fast reactive transformation an "offensive" transformation, or something akin to a slow pivot. These paired defensive-offensive transformations seem very cool, although it does look at somewhat familiar territory. But I think we have enough to differentiate ourselves.
Something I am also interested in is making CAP Song an important and often used part of the kit, which this concept can possibly facilitate very nicely.
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I view this concept as one of two modes. We are either emulating switching to a defensive pivot by using CAP Song, or we are emulating using Tera by using CAP Song. If we're emulating switching to a defensive pivot using CAP song we are likely swapping between a fast forme that likely focuses on its offensive typing and a slower, bulkier forme that has excellent defensive typing. Going from say Steel/Dark to Steel/Flying is a limited version of this kinda approach.
The alternate is basically just using CAP song like a reusable tera, whereby both formes are fairly similar, fairly fast, and have a lot of mutual immunities. Think Fire/Ground to Fire/Flying. You're gonna want to ensure that you have excellent 3 move coverage across your three typings, and you're going to want to prioritize being really bloody fast over anything else here in both formes. I could see a world where both formes have the exact same stats for this approach.
After writing this I realized I am basically just restating Guingil's post.
The alternate is basically just using CAP song like a reusable tera, whereby both formes are fairly similar, fairly fast, and have a lot of mutual immunities. Think Fire/Ground to Fire/Flying. You're gonna want to ensure that you have excellent 3 move coverage across your three typings, and you're going to want to prioritize being really bloody fast over anything else here in both formes. I could see a world where both formes have the exact same stats for this approach.
After writing this I realized I am basically just restating Guingil's post.
Gonna answer these questions as Kenn suggested.
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In terms of approach, I think it's important for the base form to be fast for pretty much any build. If there's a designated defensive form meant to tank almost all hits, it should be the transformation form. Otherwise it's hard to say that transforming is serving a primarily defensive purpose. This might make switching in a little bit harder, but I think it's necessary for the concept to work. My favorite approach is just 2 mutually beneficial typings (note: not necessarily equally good defensive typings) that share the burden of tanking hits, ideally both fast, perhaps with different stat distributions as well.
It doesn't really imply anything in terms of role. It just says the transformation itself is used in an at least partially defensive manner. This is a pretty open-ended concept.
It can be quite useful for walling if that's the goal. A form change without shared weaknesses can be really difficult to break past, but it's very dependent on at least one form being fast. I'll discuss stats below.
It's very hard to make use of a defensive transformation if the form that is not meant to tank the hit is not faster than its opponent.
A synergistic typing pair is the best route, either coupled with significant stat changes or not. You can differentiate the forms using stats alone technically, but I'm skeptical. In Ram's process we discussed to death how a form that's locked behind a click is not as good as it looks on paper. For Ram that was most relevant to speed: Ram-Radiant may outspeed Dragapult, but it won't serve as your team's speed control because it's not active when you need it. For a defensive transformation, even if you use a faster CAP song to bolster the defensive stat that helps you in a given matchup, you have to imagine what else you could have been using that turn doing. Perhaps you could have clicked Iron Defense, which may achieve similar results. The benefits gained by a useful typing change are hard to replicate any other way so I think it's kind of a requirement here if we want to make the form change worth it.
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In terms of approach, I think it's important for the base form to be fast for pretty much any build. If there's a designated defensive form meant to tank almost all hits, it should be the transformation form. Otherwise it's hard to say that transforming is serving a primarily defensive purpose. This might make switching in a little bit harder, but I think it's necessary for the concept to work. My favorite approach is just 2 mutually beneficial typings (note: not necessarily equally good defensive typings) that share the burden of tanking hits, ideally both fast, perhaps with different stat distributions as well.
Pardon this being later than intended, was super busy with work and got sick :(
So it seems to me that most of us are in agreement that we need some sort of Speed in at least the base form of AT Ramnarok and maybe even maintaining or increasing that Speed once transformed. The base form's Speed will allow CAP Song to act as a way to gain the advantage of being transformed and gaining immunities or resists that the base form may appreciate. I think the 2 approaches mentioned by quz/guingil kinda solidify this approach where we have a "pseudo-Tera" to use or a "pseudo-pivot" support and allow that to be compressed in a team by way of CAP Song.
With all the info gathered, it is time we head into typing discussion. I highly recommend that anyone planning to suggest type combinations have solid reasoning as to why it would work but also what the type accomplishes for AT Ramnarok.
So it seems to me that most of us are in agreement that we need some sort of Speed in at least the base form of AT Ramnarok and maybe even maintaining or increasing that Speed once transformed. The base form's Speed will allow CAP Song to act as a way to gain the advantage of being transformed and gaining immunities or resists that the base form may appreciate. I think the 2 approaches mentioned by quz/guingil kinda solidify this approach where we have a "pseudo-Tera" to use or a "pseudo-pivot" support and allow that to be compressed in a team by way of CAP Song.
With all the info gathered, it is time we head into typing discussion. I highly recommend that anyone planning to suggest type combinations have solid reasoning as to why it would work but also what the type accomplishes for AT Ramnarok.
Building upon this need for speed, I'd like to suggest that we include one of the two types that can have paralysis immunity (Electric, Ground). This was a consideration for ST Ramnarok as well, which led to an electric immunity ability making it onto the slate (Lightning Rod, iirc?). Gaining this immunity upon transforming into our Pirouette forme against a TWave/Glare mon is another defensive benefit that we can tack on, on top of the type-change shenanigans viol and bass points out as a crucial defensive niche. It is also possible to have these types on Aria or both formes, but I'll let the advocates for those make the argument. With that said, I propose...
Flying/Water -> Flying/Ground
Ok, slapping two good combinations together is obviously good, but there is more to it trust me. The transform mutually addresses weaknesses: Aria's 4x weakness to Electric becomes an immunity, the Rock weakness a neutrality. Pirouette's weakness to Ice and Water become a neutrality and resistance, respectively. (Freeze Dry still kills us, darn you Kyurem broken mon)
Flying/Water is already great coverage for a speedier Aria, and Ground hits whatever resists that for supereffective damage. Flying has few competing moves and no immunities, while Water and Ground have great STAB options to blast opponents with. I could see this choosing either "pseudo-Tera" or "pseudo-Pivot", with how well rounded the combinations are, but I'm leaning more towards Terabecause who wants to see another bulky Ground/Flying type.
Flying/Water -> Flying/Ground
Ok, slapping two good combinations together is obviously good, but there is more to it trust me. The transform mutually addresses weaknesses: Aria's 4x weakness to Electric becomes an immunity, the Rock weakness a neutrality. Pirouette's weakness to Ice and Water become a neutrality and resistance, respectively. (Freeze Dry still kills us, darn you Kyurem broken mon)
Flying/Water is already great coverage for a speedier Aria, and Ground hits whatever resists that for supereffective damage. Flying has few competing moves and no immunities, while Water and Ground have great STAB options to blast opponents with. I could see this choosing either "pseudo-Tera" or "pseudo-Pivot", with how well rounded the combinations are, but I'm leaning more towards Tera
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Suggesting Fairy / Dragon -> Fairy / Steel.
Fairy/Dragon is a strong typing by itself, but it has weaknesses to Ice, Steel, Poison, and Fairy. With this typing change, Poison becomes an immunity, Fairy and Ice become resists, and Steel becomes a neutrality, which is one of the best palettes I've found for any typing pair. You can also transform to gain a poison (the status) immunity. In the reverse direction, Fairy/Steel's only weaknesses are Fire and Ground. Fire flips to a resist, while Ground becomes neutral.
Fairy as the shared typing isn't bad; it has no immunities that can block the transformation, and you can function reasonably well with a 75 BP fairy move. It's not far off of Dazzling Gleam. On the physical end it's easier, with Play Rough being kind of awful and Spirit Break being the same base power as CAP Fist.
There's a fair amount of offensive redundancy between our STABs, which I'd argue is kind of a good thing here for a couple reasons: All 3 STABs are walled by steels, and some of the meta's prominent fairies are not weak to Steel, which means we're rarely transforming for offensive reasons. The likelihood that we're running all 3 of our STAB types is vanishingly low, which gives room on our moveset for other coverage, utility, even doubling the Fairy STAB if needed, etc. All of this makes achieving concept via a primarily defensive transformation pretty easy.
These typings have good defensive synergy in both directions which makes me lean toward a "both mons fast" / dancing build, although I think slow pirouette form probably works fine too. Our base form could pretty easily lean physically defensive since it's coming in on things like Wellspring and Caribolt, while the pirouette form could maybe lean more SpDef.
While the pairing is pretty defensive, and the transformation itself is largely defensive, I think it's also possible to have one or both forms be primarily offensive via stats / movepool if we want. Fairy is a strong type offensively, we have access to high base power STAB moves like Draco, and it's not too hard to target resists with coverage.
Fairy/Dragon is a strong typing by itself, but it has weaknesses to Ice, Steel, Poison, and Fairy. With this typing change, Poison becomes an immunity, Fairy and Ice become resists, and Steel becomes a neutrality, which is one of the best palettes I've found for any typing pair. You can also transform to gain a poison (the status) immunity. In the reverse direction, Fairy/Steel's only weaknesses are Fire and Ground. Fire flips to a resist, while Ground becomes neutral.
Fairy as the shared typing isn't bad; it has no immunities that can block the transformation, and you can function reasonably well with a 75 BP fairy move. It's not far off of Dazzling Gleam. On the physical end it's easier, with Play Rough being kind of awful and Spirit Break being the same base power as CAP Fist.
There's a fair amount of offensive redundancy between our STABs, which I'd argue is kind of a good thing here for a couple reasons: All 3 STABs are walled by steels, and some of the meta's prominent fairies are not weak to Steel, which means we're rarely transforming for offensive reasons. The likelihood that we're running all 3 of our STAB types is vanishingly low, which gives room on our moveset for other coverage, utility, even doubling the Fairy STAB if needed, etc. All of this makes achieving concept via a primarily defensive transformation pretty easy.
These typings have good defensive synergy in both directions which makes me lean toward a "both mons fast" / dancing build, although I think slow pirouette form probably works fine too. Our base form could pretty easily lean physically defensive since it's coming in on things like Wellspring and Caribolt, while the pirouette form could maybe lean more SpDef.
While the pairing is pretty defensive, and the transformation itself is largely defensive, I think it's also possible to have one or both forms be primarily offensive via stats / movepool if we want. Fairy is a strong type offensively, we have access to high base power STAB moves like Draco, and it's not too hard to target resists with coverage.
Submitting Fairy/Steel <> Fairy/Bug
I hopefully don't need to extol to you the strengths of Fairy/Steel as a type combination. If I somehow did, Viol already did it for us both. I likewise won't linger on the appeals of Fairy as a shared typing here; it's also been addressed above. I will briefly mention -- given their respective offensive profile -- neither Steel nor Bug should be competing much for a STAB moveslot outside of U-turn. Instead I'd like to focus most of this post on the other type combination, which is sure to raise a few more eyebrows.
Fairy/Bug boasts a deceptively strong defensive profile belied by its only current holder. It features resistances to Bug, Ground, Grass, and Dark, a 4x resistance to Fighting, and an immunity to Dragon. While perhaps not a lot on paper, practically it's a resistance to U-turn, Earthquake, Knock Off, Close Combat, Body Press, and others. In total, it resists many of the most common physical moves in the meta.
The goal here is a 'mon that that switch it's defensive bias on the fly through, mostly, typing and stats. Fairy/Steel's impressive nine resistances and two immunities in turn cover some of the more common special move types like Poison, Dragon, Flying, and Ice. Steel and Bug likewise cancel out many of each other's weakness like Fighting, Ground, Rock, and Flying. Steel even allows for the Bug type form to get along without need for Heavy-duty Boots.
Obviously, the three typings together are severely walled by about any Fire type or Salt Cure Garganacl. That seems healthy and more than manageable to me. Either through our ability or moveslot choices or in the more abstract partners for team building.
I hopefully don't need to extol to you the strengths of Fairy/Steel as a type combination. If I somehow did, Viol already did it for us both. I likewise won't linger on the appeals of Fairy as a shared typing here; it's also been addressed above. I will briefly mention -- given their respective offensive profile -- neither Steel nor Bug should be competing much for a STAB moveslot outside of U-turn. Instead I'd like to focus most of this post on the other type combination, which is sure to raise a few more eyebrows.
Fairy/Bug boasts a deceptively strong defensive profile belied by its only current holder. It features resistances to Bug, Ground, Grass, and Dark, a 4x resistance to Fighting, and an immunity to Dragon. While perhaps not a lot on paper, practically it's a resistance to U-turn, Earthquake, Knock Off, Close Combat, Body Press, and others. In total, it resists many of the most common physical moves in the meta.
The goal here is a 'mon that that switch it's defensive bias on the fly through, mostly, typing and stats. Fairy/Steel's impressive nine resistances and two immunities in turn cover some of the more common special move types like Poison, Dragon, Flying, and Ice. Steel and Bug likewise cancel out many of each other's weakness like Fighting, Ground, Rock, and Flying. Steel even allows for the Bug type form to get along without need for Heavy-duty Boots.
Obviously, the three typings together are severely walled by about any Fire type or Salt Cure Garganacl. That seems healthy and more than manageable to me. Either through our ability or moveslot choices or in the more abstract partners for team building.
Dark / Poison -> Dark / Flying
Dark/Poison is an elite defensive typing, sporting a single 2x weakness to Ground, and having excellent resistances in Grass, Dark and Ghost. Dark/Flying maintains all three while flipping the singular weakness into an immunity. Dark/Flying does gain a couple significant weaknesses to Electric, Ice, and Fairy, so it may be necessary for the form to have some speed to switch back to Base, and Poison is capable of hitting the Fairy Pokemon in response.
Dark as the shared typing is useful: Dark is a spammable typing with no immunities, meaning the transformation cannot be blocked by the opponent. Dark/Poison as the base mitigates the stealth rock weakness of Dark/Flying, absorbs Toxic Spikes, and avoids poison status.
A main point of these typings is consistency. As a defensive mon in both forms, it's important that AT Ramnarok can consistently keep a defensive role, and this typing shares a lot of strong resistances as well as both being Dark types not weak to Fighting. This means that the primary purpose of transforming is to avoid the ground weakness in Base or poison/flying weaknesses in Aria, increasing AT Ramnarok's longevity for it to serve it's purpose on the team.
Dark/Poison is an elite defensive typing, sporting a single 2x weakness to Ground, and having excellent resistances in Grass, Dark and Ghost. Dark/Flying maintains all three while flipping the singular weakness into an immunity. Dark/Flying does gain a couple significant weaknesses to Electric, Ice, and Fairy, so it may be necessary for the form to have some speed to switch back to Base, and Poison is capable of hitting the Fairy Pokemon in response.
Dark as the shared typing is useful: Dark is a spammable typing with no immunities, meaning the transformation cannot be blocked by the opponent. Dark/Poison as the base mitigates the stealth rock weakness of Dark/Flying, absorbs Toxic Spikes, and avoids poison status.
A main point of these typings is consistency. As a defensive mon in both forms, it's important that AT Ramnarok can consistently keep a defensive role, and this typing shares a lot of strong resistances as well as both being Dark types not weak to Fighting. This means that the primary purpose of transforming is to avoid the ground weakness in Base or poison/flying weaknesses in Aria, increasing AT Ramnarok's longevity for it to serve it's purpose on the team.
Electric / Dark > Electric / Flying
Electric / Dark is a pretty fascinating type combination which doesn't get much attention because it's only available on Morpeko. It resists the dual STABs of Kingambit, Gholdengo, is able to soft-check the likes of Raging Bolt and Darkrai, and has the good neutral coverage to strike back in return. While it does have 4 weaknesses in Fighting / Ground / Bug and Fairy, switching to Electric / Flying outright turns the former 3 into resistances / immunities, and Fairy into a neutrality.
We already know what makes Electric / Flying great from Zapdos being in OU for forever, having a bunch of useful resistances, while only having 2 weaknesses to Rock / Ice, both of which are shred by going back into Electric / Dark when threatened.
The concept here is not necessarily 2 forms that collectively have a massive number of resistances, but a handful of high-value resistances in either form, that encourages us from switching from one form to the other. Electric being the common typing allows us to keep our speed against what would otherwise be threats of paralysis, and having the Dark > Flying transition also makes us a pretty resilient against Knock Off.
Electric / Dark is a pretty fascinating type combination which doesn't get much attention because it's only available on Morpeko. It resists the dual STABs of Kingambit, Gholdengo, is able to soft-check the likes of Raging Bolt and Darkrai, and has the good neutral coverage to strike back in return. While it does have 4 weaknesses in Fighting / Ground / Bug and Fairy, switching to Electric / Flying outright turns the former 3 into resistances / immunities, and Fairy into a neutrality.
We already know what makes Electric / Flying great from Zapdos being in OU for forever, having a bunch of useful resistances, while only having 2 weaknesses to Rock / Ice, both of which are shred by going back into Electric / Dark when threatened.
The concept here is not necessarily 2 forms that collectively have a massive number of resistances, but a handful of high-value resistances in either form, that encourages us from switching from one form to the other. Electric being the common typing allows us to keep our speed against what would otherwise be threats of paralysis, and having the Dark > Flying transition also makes us a pretty resilient against Knock Off.
Steel/Electric -> Steel/Flying
This typing is intended to support an "Offensive & fast -> Bulky & slow" design. Steel/Electric gives an inherent immunity to Paralysis, and the transformation into Steel/Flying, turns the 4x Ground weakness into an immunity, while also turning the Fighting weakness into a neutrality. Conversely, Steel/Flying could then transform back into Steel/Electric to gain resistances to Electric, Ice, and Rock, which would make a "slow pivot" CAP Song even more effective. The shared Steel type also comes with other perks, like a Poison immunity and Stealth Rock resistance.
Notably, compared to the previous Electric -> Flying sub, this typing's CAP Song isn't blocked by Ground-types, allowing it to threaten a transformation against Grounds that would otherwise easily switch in and force us out.
Additionally, this typing can be quite loose with its moveslots, as there's no incentive to run additional Steel STAB alongside CAP song, and Flying STAB is inconsistent to the point where it may be dropped, especially assuming lesser attacking stats on Pirouette.
This typing is intended to support an "Offensive & fast -> Bulky & slow" design. Steel/Electric gives an inherent immunity to Paralysis, and the transformation into Steel/Flying, turns the 4x Ground weakness into an immunity, while also turning the Fighting weakness into a neutrality. Conversely, Steel/Flying could then transform back into Steel/Electric to gain resistances to Electric, Ice, and Rock, which would make a "slow pivot" CAP Song even more effective. The shared Steel type also comes with other perks, like a Poison immunity and Stealth Rock resistance.
Notably, compared to the previous Electric -> Flying sub, this typing's CAP Song isn't blocked by Ground-types, allowing it to threaten a transformation against Grounds that would otherwise easily switch in and force us out.
Additionally, this typing can be quite loose with its moveslots, as there's no incentive to run additional Steel STAB alongside CAP song, and Flying STAB is inconsistent to the point where it may be dropped, especially assuming lesser attacking stats on Pirouette.
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Dark/Fire -> Dark/Ghost
3 emo types for the price of 1!
This typing is meant to support a swap from good matchups into common special attackers into good matchups into common physical attackers. Dark/Fire is weak to fighting, ground, rock, and water, 3 of which are primarily physically leaning, and the best special ground type in the tier, equilibra, loses to fire. Dark/Ghost is a more defensively oriented typing, with only one weakness in fairy, which notoriously is special leaning due to moonblast's superiority to play rough.
The types also have nice interactions with each other. Obviously, dark/fire's fighting weakness becomes an immunity upon transformation. Also, not only do they share no weaknesses, but they also share no resistances other than the psychic immunity, as Dark/Ghost is so removed from the type chart that its only resists/immunities are normal, poison, psychic, and fighting.
Offensively, Dark/Fire is pretty good, not because of any synergies between the types but just because dark and fire are both just decent offensively. Dark/Ghost, as the defensive transformation, is pretty bad offensively. Dark and Ghost have perfect overlap in their coverage leading to a lot of redundancy. Finally, dark as the primary type means the transformation is unblockable.
3 emo types for the price of 1!
This typing is meant to support a swap from good matchups into common special attackers into good matchups into common physical attackers. Dark/Fire is weak to fighting, ground, rock, and water, 3 of which are primarily physically leaning, and the best special ground type in the tier, equilibra, loses to fire. Dark/Ghost is a more defensively oriented typing, with only one weakness in fairy, which notoriously is special leaning due to moonblast's superiority to play rough.
The types also have nice interactions with each other. Obviously, dark/fire's fighting weakness becomes an immunity upon transformation. Also, not only do they share no weaknesses, but they also share no resistances other than the psychic immunity, as Dark/Ghost is so removed from the type chart that its only resists/immunities are normal, poison, psychic, and fighting.
Offensively, Dark/Fire is pretty good, not because of any synergies between the types but just because dark and fire are both just decent offensively. Dark/Ghost, as the defensive transformation, is pretty bad offensively. Dark and Ghost have perfect overlap in their coverage leading to a lot of redundancy. Finally, dark as the primary type means the transformation is unblockable.
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Okay sorry for the delay but it finally time to vote on these typings...I am also thinking about moving the voting to CAPcord AT tab to avoid clogging this thread if anyone has any objections to that lemme know in CAPcord/here
With that the slate is as follows:
Flying/Water --> Flying/Ground
Fairy/Dragon --> Fairy/Steel
Fairy/Steel --> Fairy/Bug
Dark/Poison --> Dark/Flying
Electric/Dark --> Electric/Flying
Steel/Electric --> Steel/Flying
Dark/Fire --> Dark/Ghost
As always, I will only vote in the event of a tie and voting will be open for about 24 hours! Reminder that it is a single BOLD vote!
With that the slate is as follows:
Flying/Water --> Flying/Ground
Fairy/Dragon --> Fairy/Steel
Fairy/Steel --> Fairy/Bug
Dark/Poison --> Dark/Flying
Electric/Dark --> Electric/Flying
Steel/Electric --> Steel/Flying
Dark/Fire --> Dark/Ghost
As always, I will only vote in the event of a tie and voting will be open for about 24 hours! Reminder that it is a single BOLD vote!
Steel/Electric --> Steel/Flying
Fairy/Dragon --> Fairy/Steel
Dark/Poison --> Dark/Flying
Dark/Fire --> Dark/Ghost
Steel/Electric --> Steel/Flying