Which team would Dragonite > Salamence?

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What type of team would dragonite work more effectively than salamence in?
I was thinking a stall team with light-screen user as a support for mixmence (or maybe a dual screen poke like Cresselia).

Wouldn't that be better than MixMence?
I heard it somewhere that mixnite would work extremely well in that type of team.
Is this true?
 
yeah, personally i find that mixnite is better than mixmence. Especially if you have a team of mainly sp attackers as the 0hko on blissey can be very useful. The bulk aslo helps take thinks like heatrans dragon pulse. That really can give it an edge over salamence.

Support 'nite is also a good option. Ive tried the heal bell set in the analysis, and whilst i found it situational it was often a great help. Especially for balanced teams.
 
yeah, personally i find that mixnite is better than mixmence. Especially if you have a team of mainly sp attackers as the 0hko on blissey can be very useful. The bulk aslo helps take thinks like heatrans dragon pulse. That really can give it an edge over salamence.

Support 'nite is also a good option. Ive tried the heal bell set in the analysis, and whilst i found it situational it was often a great help. Especially for balanced teams.
One major thing I am concerned about is his mediocre, or rather, slow speed.
How will one be able to use him as a late-game sweeper if he is so slow? How should one go about playing the mixnite?
 
One major thing I am concerned about is his mediocre, or rather, slow speed.
How will one be able to use him as a late-game sweeper if he is so slow? How should one go about playing the mixnite?
If your trying to sweep then dragonite is outclassed. Dragonites appeal is in movepool, with super power to take down blissey and ttar aswell as tbolt for gyarados or roost which can take advantage of its higher defenses.

His main strength is decimating stallteams 2hko'ing everything in ou.
 

Erazor

✓ Just Doug It
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I love 'Nite, so I'll try to explain how to use him properly(IMO at least) -

First, look at all the ways in which Dragonite is better than 'Mence. We have MixNite, Support Nite, CBNite, and Bulky DDNite.

One major thing I am concerned about is his mediocre, or rather, slow speed.
How will one be able to use him as a late-game sweeper if he is so slow? How should one go about playing the mixnite?
For your question about how one uses Mixnite - use him as a Stall Breaker. Dragonite doesn't sweep, he breaks down walls for someone else to sweep. Having trouble with Stall? Nite 2HKOes every member of a stall team with a CB, and I think Mixnite does that as well. The main advantage of Mixnite over Mixmence is that crucial OHKO on Blissey, at the cost of a weaker Draco Meteor(but that move is broken anyway lol).

CBNite, again, literally punches holes in the opponent's team. His main advantage over Mence is the ability to beat Steel types without locking himself into a special move, by using Fire Punch.

Bulky DDNite, on the other hand, can be a fearsome sweeper. It usually goes mono attack, but even Dragon Claw hurts after a few DDs. The main thing differentiating him from Mence is that bulk and Light Screen.

RaikouLover made a great thread about Nite some time ago. Look at that(but don't necro it).
 
I think you are on the right track with looking at stall teams. I never prefer MixNite over MixMence, but with screen and heal bell support he has a knack for teamwork.

I also ran a set with HP and Def EV investment, and he was able to support the team by taking physical hits and Roosting off damage. With little to no SpA EVs he was using Flamethrower and TBolt to take out Scizor, Gyara, Metagross, Lucario, and Jirachi. May be a little gimmicky but it worked great for my team.
 
One major thing I am concerned about is his mediocre, or rather, slow speed.
How will one be able to use him as a late-game sweeper if he is so slow? How should one go about playing the mixnite?
Dragonite is pretty much as fast as Gyarados. You can sweep with him quite easily.

MixMence and MixNite do pretty much the same thing, you trade the ability to OHKO Blissey for a lot more Speed and bit more power. The only place I'd suggest MixNite over MixMence is if you're having Blissey problems, otherwise the greater Speed will usually be more helpful. MixNite doesn't perform better against stall teams, it performs better against Blissey. In fact, I don't think it can OHKO Hippowdon with Draco Meteor, while Salamence can. (Or at least has a better chance to).

Choice Band Salamence and Choice Band Dragonite are pretty similiar, so I'd always choose the one with more Speed (but I prefer Flygon). They both can 2HKO the whole metagame. Dragonite has Fire Punch, while Salamence has Fire Blast. This only further shows that Dragonite is bulkier than Mence because it doesn't need to lower one if its defenses with a Naughty nature. Though, most Ice Beams will OHKO both of them.

On a balanced team however, Support Dragonite is surely superior to any Salamence set (lol FatMence). Salamence doesn't even have Heal Bell or Light Screen so quite obviously, I'd use Dragonite on a balanced team in need of some status healing and special sponging.
 
Erazor, Salamence gets Fire Fang, which is only 10BP weaker than Fire Punch...

@Choice Band

252Atk/6Def/252Spe
Adamant nature
~Outrage
~Fire Fang
~Earthquake/Brick Break
~Stone Edge/Dragon Claw/Aerial Ace

Don't use Aqua Tail on Salamence-anything Salamence attempts to cover with it gets hit alot harder by Hydro Pump, so use Hydro Pump insted.

@Choice Band
252Atk/6Def/252Spe
Adamant nature
~Outrage
~Fire Punch
~Superpower
~Ice Punch/Stone Edge/Dragon Claw

Dragon+Fire is the usual Dragon-type coverage, Superpower complements by OHKOing the likes of Heatran and Blissey, and either of the last slot options pair well with the Fighting-type Superpower.

Dragonite can also sweep very well, if only...
@Life Orb

84Atk/220SpA/206Spe
Lonely nature
~Agility
~Draco Meteor
~Outrage
~Fire Blast

I even use a gimmick Choice Scarf set...
@Choice Scarf

112Atk/158SpA/240Spe
Lonely nature
~Outrage
~Fire Blast
~Superpower
~Blizzard
 
Erazor, Salamence gets Fire Fang, which is only 10BP weaker then Fire Punch...
But that base power difference is needed in order to get the crucial 2HKO on Skarmory with a Choice Band. Dragonite has it guaranteed with Stealth Rock, which Salamence doesn't.

Salamence: 607 Atk vs 416 Def & 334 HP (65 Base Power): 136 - 162 (40.72% - 48.50%)

Dragonite: 604 Atk vs 416 Def & 334 HP (75 Base Power): 158 - 186 (47.31% - 55.69%)

This way, you don't have to use stuff like Fire Blast and as such don't have to split EVs.
 
I used on an old team a MixMence, it was very good, outsped most Pokemon it came up against and packed a punch too. You are correct in thinking it should go with a stall team, that would benefit it.
 
A team with some twave support can help out dragonite since its not the fastest thing around, he gets revenge killed easily at times due to his slow speed. But something like wishbliss seems to be able to take on a mixmence without brick break and once they are locked on outrage to try and take you it makes it easy to come in with a steel type and finish it off and save your blissey.

Mixmence just gets more power and speed so he's generally a better option but dragonite gets the ability to rape blissey. depending on how much of a problem she is you should go with sally if she's not too much and dragonite if thats a problem for you.
 
But that base power difference is needed in order to get the crucial 2HKO on Skarmory with a Choice Band. Dragonite has it guaranteed with Stealth Rock, which Salamence doesn't.

Salamence: 607 Atk vs 416 Def & 334 HP (65 Base Power): 136 - 162 (40.72% - 48.50%)

Dragonite: 604 Atk vs 416 Def & 334 HP (75 Base Power): 158 - 186 (47.31% - 55.69%)

This way, you don't have to use stuff like Fire Blast and as such don't have to split EVs.
how does the nite have 604 attack?
 
how does the nite have 604 attack?
CB. 403 x 1.5 = 604.5, but since pokemon rounds down, 604. Salamence has 405 attack, which x1.5, rounds down to 607. However, the analysis uses a spread of 248 Atk / 8 SpA / 252 Spe, which equates to the same attack as Dragonite.
 

SlottedPig

sem feio
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Three most commonly used Salamence / Dragonite sets:
Salamence @ Life Orb
~Draco Meteor
~Earthquake
~Fire Blast
~Outrage
84 ATK / 216 SpA / 208 Spe
(Mild or Naiive)

VS:

Dragonite @ Life Orb
~Draco Meteor
~Superpower
~Fire Blast
~Thunderbolt / Roost
112 Atk / 200 SpA / 196 Spe
(Rash)
(Salamence is used with max Speed sometimes, out of ATK)

Each have their perks. Dragonite is better at wall-breaking, and Salamence is better at general attacking with this set. Why?:

1) Dragonite gets Superpower to OHKO Blissey. This is a major point, since Salamence needs to use the combo of Draco Meteor + Outrage to KO it - so Salamence will be locked in and easily KOd by a Steel type. Smaller points are that Dragonite's Superpower OHKOs Heatran and Tyranitar.

2) Salamence's base SpA is higher than Dragonites. Salamence can hit most switch-ins harder with Draco Meteor than Dragonite.

3) Dragonite learns Thunderbolt, which is easily better than Salamence's Hydro Pump. Thunderbolt maims bulky Waters, mainly Suicune (Thunderbolt + Draco Meteor KOs, although watch out for Offensive Cune outspeednig and KOing with Ice Beam), whereas Salamence would have to resort to Draco Meteor + Outrage (see #1). Roost is listed as an option beside it, but with Life Orb eating up your HP and a -SpD nature you will rarely have time to use it.

4) Salamence's Speed; Salamence is far less easily revenge killed.

Salamence is often paired up with Infernape, for they two alone can crack open every wall in OU if they use the correct move while still proving a sweeping threat on their own. Both usually die incredibly fast, so there's safety in numbers.

On the other hand, Dragonite can usually do that alone while being much less of a threat than Salamence (nearly equal ATK, Dragonite has lower SpA, Dragonite has lower Spe).

Really, it depends if you want wall-breakers who can stand a chance against hyperoffensive teams, or a wall-breaker with more flexibility with your team.

[Dragonite is entirely outclassed by Salamence using a Dragon Dance all-out set, so I won't list that. Fire Punch alone is your main selling point.]

[The last set, Bulky DDNite, is entirely done by RaikouLover in his Dragonite discussion thread :).]

Set: Bulky DD Dragonite
Dragonite (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 224 HP/88 Atk/196 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Roost

Now, this set yields the following stats:

379 / 358 / 226 / 212 / 236 / 245

I really have to prove my point on this one, because Salamence can run a similar set. Now, the concept of Bulky DD Salamence is that it can double as a sweeper and sort of defensive wall with an obligation of countering Lucario via Intimidate. Since Dragonite has to run a Jolly nature to have a shot at duplicating that, just remove him of that resonsibility and call this a straight up sweeper. The main benefit of this set is that it IS bulkier than Salamence. Intimidate is only active factor making Salamence seem bulkier than Dragonite at times. However, since this set is designed on setting up 2 Dragon Dances in the late-game (which is not hard by any stretch of the imagination), speed becomes a non issue, and Dragonite's higher natural physical bulk leaves him less susceptible to revenge kills by Scizor, and higher special bulk makes setting up on special attackers a viable tactic. Having played both Bulky DD Dragonite and Bulky DD Salamence extensively, I found that they both have their perks but if the objective is setting up a sweep, Dragonite actually does so because it no longer has that walling responsiblity, and has natural bulk after it nabs the first kill.

This is not outclassed by Salamence. Why?
If Salamence uses a Jolly nature to counter Lucario, it loses the attack power. However, if it were to attempt to duplicate this Dragonite's attack and defenses starting with defense, it would have to run this EV spread:

192 HP / 120 Def / 160 SpD / 36 Spe

This yields the following stats:

379 / 336 / 226 / 230 / 236 / 245

Reaches the same stats, but loses 22 points in attack! Starting from attack, it would look like this:

192 HP / 88 Atk / 120 Def / 80 SpD / 36 Spe

Yields:

379 / 358 / 226 / 230 / 216 / 245

Loses 20 points of Special Defense. So, give this set a try!
 
Yeah I am thinking about using Bulky DDNite.
With good supports (thinking of magnezone and cresselia or any LS supporter), I would even go as far as saying that Bulky DDNite is "better" than DDMence. Well, even if it isn't, I for one really care abou personal preference XD.
Thanks btw
 

obi

formerly david stone
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I think you're all leaving off the singular best reason to use Dragonite on your team:

You already have Salamence on your team and want to double up on Dragon attacks to try and at least sweep with one of them.
 
I think you're all leaving off the singular best reason to use Dragonite on your team:

You already have Salamence on your team and want to double up on Dragon attacks to try and at least sweep with one of them.
Youre right, thats the only time ive used dragonite since plat.
 
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