Gen 3 Whiscash (NU Revamp) [GP 0/2]

Oglemi

red hot like pizza supper
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Secret Boss Mod
#1

http://www.smogon.com/rs/pokemon/whiscash

[Overview]

Whiscash faces some stiff competition for the role of bulky Water-type in the NU metagame. Its main competition, Wailord, sports similar defensive capabilities (in fact, they shake out to be almost identical) but also higher offensive stats and has access to two coveted moves in Roar and Self-Destruct. Whiscash, on the other hand, has what is possibly the best typing in the game and access to STAB Earthquake. However, despite just how good the Water/Ground typing is, the 4x weakness to Grass is what really lowers Whiscash's standing in the tier, as Grass is a popular coverage type on wallbreakers since there are many Pokemon that share Whiscash's unfortunate 4x weakness. If you can cover Whiscash's abhorration of the green stuff it'll pull its weight in any match.

[SET]
name: Physically Defensive
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Ice Beam / Rest
move 4: Protect / Sleep Talk
item: Leftovers
ability: Oblivious
nature: Relaxed
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

With maximum Defense investment, Whiscash is physcially bulky enough to avoid a 2HKO from Choice Band Pidgeot and Hitmonchan, giving it an immediate niche in the tier. Physically defensive Whiscash vies for a team slot with Relicanth and Wailord, but there are a couple of things that make Whiscash worth using over both. While Relicanth resists Normal- and Flying-type attacks, and Wailord is a better Fire-type check by being less susceptible to Grass-type attacks and has Roar, Whiscash has an easier time offensively beating back Hitmonchan, resists Rock and is immune to Electric, and more easily takes on special attackers like Pikachu and Haunter (assuming they lack Grass-type coverage). Earthquake and Ice Beam have very good coverage together, and Toxic cripples most of the Pokemon that aren't too threatened by both. If you have a cleric on your team or need Whiscash to have greater longevity, RestTalk is an option in the last slot and allows Whiscash to absorb status for the team, but this also makes Whiscash a bit more susceptible to dangerous attackers like Substitute Pidgeot.

[ADDITIONAL SET COMMENTS]

A more balanced EV spread can be used to turn Whiscash into a more of a blanket check and try to make the most of Whiscash's set of resistances. With a spread of 252 HP / 140 Def / 112 SpD and a Sassy nature, Whiscash is still physically bulky enough to avoid a 2HKO from Choice Band Murkrow's Drill Peck and specially bulky enough to just barely survive a Fire Blast followed by a Hidden Power Grass from maximum Special Attack Flareon. Surf and a Bold nature can be run over Earthquake, but STAB Earthquake is a major selling point to using Whiscash over its competition.

Spikes expose Whiscash to a number of 2HKOes it can normally avoid, such as against Choice Band Kingler, Piloswine, and Pidgeot, making Rapid Spin support from Hitmonchan highly valued to get the most out of Whiscash. In the same vein, Spikes support of your own will allow Whiscash to nab some KOes it can otherwise miss out on, such as a OHKO on Pupitar and a 2HKO on Choice Band Hitmonchan. Roselia is the best Spiker to pair with Whiscash as it completely covers Whiscash's Grass-type weakness and in return Whiscash deals with a large majority of the physical attackers that give Roselia trouble.

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Hidden Power Rock
move 3: Double-Edge
move 4: Surf
item: Choice Band
ability: Oblivious
nature: Naughty
evs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

This set is a far more offensive approach to Whiscash and really makes use of Whiscash's stellar typing and access to STAB Earthquake. Earthquake + Hidden Power Rock is amazing coverage, and Double-Edge and Surf round out the set almost perfectly. While Whiscash lags behind in power behind Piloswine and Graveler as a Choice Band user with STAB Earthquake, Whiscash makes up for it with its far better typing and ability to beat Hitmonchan and other threats such as Wailord and Dewgong one-on-one.

[ADDITIONAL SET COMMENTS]

Another big advantage that Whiscash has as a Choice Band user over its competition is its decent Speed stat, allowing it to allocate more EVs into its bulk. With just 44 Speed EVs, Whiscash outspeeds minimum Speed Chimecho and Flareon and everything below, including most other Choice Band users, giving it a leg up on slower defensive teams. Naughty is the nature chosen so as to not weaken Surf's power, and lowering Whiscash's Special Defense is of lesser consequence in the long run. If Surf doesn't suit your taste on this set, Hidden Power Bug or Hidden Power Ghost can be used instead, with Rock Slide then taking over Hidden Power Rock. Hidden Power Bug is Whiscash's best move for Bellossom and other Grass-types, while Hidden Power Ghost nails Haunter and Chimecho.

Spikes support is appreciated as this set is a bit unexpected and will inevitably force a lot of switches, thusly making it easier to nab some KOs Whiscash would otherwise miss out on. Roselia makes a naturally good partner to Whiscash as it covers its horrid Grass-type weakness. Flareon is also a stellar partner and can pass Wishes to Whiscash to keep it healthy over the match. Another offensive teammate to clean up, such as Dragon Dance Pupitar and Bulk Up Vigoroth, is needed to make use of the holes Whiscash is going to punch in the opponent's team.

[SET]
name: Substitute Stallbreaker
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Surf
move 4: Ice Beam / Toxic / Hidden Power Grass
item: Leftovers
ability: Oblivious
nature: Mild
evs: 172 HP / 148 Atk / 144 SpA / 44 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

This set merges Whiscash's offensive and defensive potential to mold it into a deadly stallbreaker when used correctly. Whiscash's typing is perfectly suited to counteract the most common stall and defensive archetypes in the tier, with only other bulky Water-types standing in Whiscash's way of total team decimation. With the moves and EV spread given, Whiscash can create 101 HP Substitutes, giving it a totally free set up against standard physically defensive Sableye, and proceed to cleanly 2HKO with Surf. Roselia, Flareon, and Mawile are all easily 2HKOed by Earthquake, and Substitute protects Whiscash from the former two's Grass-type attacks. The last slot is dedicated to how you want Whiscash to handle the opponent's bulky Water- or Grass-type. Toxic is the best all around choice for weakening Dewgong, Wailord, and Bellossom in the long run but is easily worked around if the opponent has a cleric or is RestTalk. Hidden Power Grass deals some decent chip damage to Wailord and especially other Whiscash and Relicanth. Ice Beam will absolutely shred Tangela and deals a decent chunk to offensive Bellossom, and Earthquake + Ice Beam has pretty stellar coverage in the tier.

[ADDITIONAL SET COMMENTS]

It's not recommended to deviate from the EV spread given as it is specifically tailored to achieve the KOes Whiscash needs. However, a different nature can be used depending on how you would like Whiscash to fair against other threats outside of defensive stall teams. This Whiscash set thrives on Spikes support to weaken the opponent's bulky Water-type and help Whiscash nab the KOes that it wants to. Roselia is the best option as it covers Whiscash's Grass-type weakness perfectly, although Glalie can be used as a teammate since this set fits well on the offensive teams that Glalie works best on. Pokemon that can lure in and eliminate the opponent's Water-type will also work wonders here, with a screen lure such as Piloswine and Metang or specially offensive Flareon making particularly good choices. Finally, Pokemon that work best with the opponent's stall core broken up are needed to make the most of this set. Late-game sweepers such as Huntail, Pidgeot, and Bellossom would be among the best choices.

[Other Options]

A fully specially defensive set is doable but ultimately strictly outclassed by Dewgong and Wailord due to Whiscash's unfortunate weakness to Grass-type attacks, which ultimately makes it an ineffective check to Fire- and Water-types that typically carry Hidden Power Grass. Rock Tomb and Icy Wind are interesting options considering Whiscash's middling Speed stat, potentially allowing it to tank an attack from, say, Haunter and finishing it off the following turn with Surf. Spark is a cool option that allows Whiscash to run Grass, Electric, and Ice coverage all in one moveset, something very few other Pokemon can accomplish in NU, but Whiscash's Special Attack is pretty lackluster to make the most of it.

[Checks and Counters]

Bellossom is probably the best overall switch-in to Whiscash as it resists Whiscash's STAB attacks, doesn't take too much from Ice Beam, and can easily OHKO Whiscash with its Grass-type STAB moves. Roselia and Tangela will also both easily KO Whiscash but need to be more careful around Earthquake and Ice Beam, respectively. Pelipper and other bulky Water-types will usually take a pittance from Whiscash's moves and can threaten back with Hidden Power Grass more than it can threaten them, but all will dislike getting hit by Toxic. Especially strong physical attackers will still break even maximum Defense Whiscash, such as Choice Band Flareon and Kingler. Finally, most anything else with a Grass-type attack, such as Haunter, Plusle, Venomoth, and Huntail, can consider themselves an effective check to Whiscash.
 
Last edited:

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
#3
I wrote this in my pastebin tier evaluation thingy, so I'm just gonna quote it rather than re-write it here!
Whiscash (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Oblivious
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Atk / 132 Def / 36 SAtk / 16 SDef / 44 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Surf
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Protect

Rest or Toxic could be fit if you want it.

Whiscash is a nice soft check to Birds, solid check to Plusle and Minun, and all-around solid Pokemon, well-suited for Balance teams, although it doesn't provide any specific team support or a win condition, and faces large competition from other Pokemon such as Piloswine and Relicanth. It also beats up on Arbok and Swalot somewhat nicely, Seviper less so due to its somewhat grand Special Attack stat which gives it more of a punch with Giga Drain than Arbok could ever hope to achieve.

(252+) Plusle Hidden Power Grass vs. Whiscash: 299-352 (70.5 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Whiscash Earthquake vs. (252/0) Minun: 285-336 (87.9 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes, 25% chance to OHKO without Spikes.
Whiscash Ice Beam vs. (4/0) Pidgeot: 154-182 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Choice Band Pidgeot Double-Edge vs. Whiscash: 212-250 (50 - 58.9%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, but much reduced when Protect is factored in. EVs can be taken from speed into defense to increase the resilience to these hits.

The Speed EVs outspeed 0 Speed base 65s (mainly Chimecho and Flareon), and EVs can be taken from Defense to increase the Speed, as suits the needs of the team. Note that if you run a Relaxed Nature, you require 32 Speed EVs to outspeed Min Speed base 55s (most notably, Relicanth and Swalot) - so often still running Brave may be optimal for your team.
 
#4
on the physically defensive set, I like eq > surf as your main stab so you can hit hitmonchan and other water-types harder. you can have it on second slash if you have a preference.

does spdef actually beat anything relevant nowadays? i guess it beats pika/plusle but you could say that about just max hp whiscash as is tbh. this seems oo-worthy to me.

same goes with specially offensive. is there any reason to use this over another specially offensive water type? it seems more like you're sacrificing some of whiscash's most noteworthy qualities to try and be a shittier huntail, seadra, or pelipper.
 

Oglemi

red hot like pizza supper
is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Secret Boss Mod
#5
Did some major reworking on this one as Whiscash's place as severely changed from where it was at the beginning of ADV NU lol. For example, I'm highly convinced inno's sub set is worth a full set just because it dicks over standard stall so hard. Anyway, looking for some input Disjunction Heysup Hogg Bughouse
 
#6
Is the extra speed worth it at all on the defensive set? You do miss out on a semi-important benchmark with impish
0- SpA Whiscash Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pidgeot: 132-156 (42.8 - 50.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Whiscash Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pidgeot: 147-174 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
In the situation pidge locks itself into aerial ace (or even the rare frustration), you could be risking crits and such throughout the course of a match. Kind of a minor point, but mons is all about minimizing risk so

I think the sub set should have ice beam slashed on it. Strong EQ + Ice move is a very difficult combination to get past since the tier's main ground resists are flyers and tang/bell (well, and chime, but you already have surf). Idk what HP Grass really hits that EQ doesn't, aside from other whiscash, but Ice Beam is for sure more important there. Haven't tried the set, but it sounds really strong so I agree with it getting a set.

Overall looks good, though. If I were to get really nitpicky, I'd say that continually comparing whiscash to other bulky waters isn't a fully apt comparison since its main niche is being the most versatile Pika counter in the tier, as it checks so much other stuff alongside it, but I respect the mentions since putting whiscash on a team makes it a bit more difficult to fit your water resist onto a team.
 

The Dutch Plumberjack

ace of wands
is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris an Administrator
Articles Co-Leader
#7
remove add / fix (comments); (AC=add comma; RC=remove comma; SC=semicolon)
GP 1/2
[Overview]

Whiscash faces some stiff competition for the role of bulky Water-type in the NU metagame. Its main competition, Wailord, sports similar defensive capabilities (in fact, they shake out to be almost identical) but also higher offensive stats and has access to two coveted moves in Roar and Self-Destruct. Whiscash, on the other hand, has what is possibly the best typing in the game and access to STAB Earthquake. However, despite just how good the Water / Ground (spacing) typing is, the 4x weakness to Grass is what really lowers Whiscash's standing in the tier, as Grass is a popular coverage type on wallbreakers, (AC) since there are many Pokemon that share Whiscash's unfortunate 4x weakness. If you can cover Whiscash's abhorration of the green stuff it'll pull its weight in any match.

[SET]
name: Physically Defensive
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Ice Beam / Rest
move 4: Protect / Sleep Talk
item: Leftovers
ability: Oblivious
nature: Relaxed
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

With maximum Defense investment, Whiscash is physcially bulky enough to avoid a 2HKO from Choice Band Pidgeot and Hitmonchan, giving it an immediate niche in the tier. Physically defensive Whiscash vies for a team slot with Relicanth and Wailord, but there are a couple of things that make Whiscash worth using over both. While Relicanth resists Normal- and Flying-type attacks (RC) and Wailord is a better Fire-type check by virtue of being less susceptible to Grass-type attacks and has Roar, Whiscash has an easier time offensively beating back Hitmonchan, resists Rock and is immune to Electric, and more easily takes on special attackers like Pikachu and Haunter (assuming they lack Grass-type coverage). Earthquake and Ice Beam have very good coverage together, and Toxic cripples most of the Pokemon that aren't too threatened by both. If you have a cleric on your team or need Whiscash to have greater longevity, RestTalk is an option in the last two slots and allows Whiscash to absorb status for the team, but this also makes Whiscash a bit more susceptible to dangerous attackers like Substitute Pidgeot.

[ADDITIONAL SET COMMENTS]

A more balanced EV spread can be used to turn Whiscash into a more of a blanket check and try to make the most of Whiscash's its set of resistances. With a spread of 252 HP / 140 Def / 112 SpD and a Sassy nature, Whiscash is still physically bulky enough to avoid a 2HKO from Choice Band Murkrow's Drill Peck and specially bulky enough to just barely survive a Fire Blast followed by a Hidden Power Grass from maximum Special Attack Flareon. Surf and a Bold nature can be run over Earthquake, but STAB Earthquake is a major selling point to using Whiscash over its competition.

Spikes expose Whiscash to a number of 2HKOes 2HKOs it can normally avoid, such as against Choice Band Kingler, Piloswine, and Pidgeot, making Rapid Spin support from Hitmonchan highly valued to get the most out of Whiscash. In the same vein, Spikes support of your own will allow Whiscash to nab some KOes KOs it can otherwise miss out on, such as a OHKO on Pupitar and a 2HKO on Choice Band Hitmonchan. Roselia is the best Spiker to pair with Whiscash, (AC) as it completely covers Whiscash's Grass-type weakness and in return Whiscash deals with a large majority of the physical attackers that give Roselia trouble.

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Hidden Power Rock
move 3: Double-Edge
move 4: Surf
item: Choice Band
ability: Oblivious
nature: Naughty
evs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

This set is a far more offensive approach to Whiscash and really makes use of Whiscash's stellar typing and access to STAB Earthquake. Earthquake + Hidden Power Rock is amazing coverage, and Double-Edge and Surf round out the set almost perfectly. While Whiscash lags behind in power behind Piloswine and Graveler as a Choice Band user with STAB Earthquake, Whiscash makes up for it with its far better typing and ability to beat Hitmonchan and other threats such as Wailord and Dewgong one-on-one.

[ADDITIONAL SET COMMENTS]

Another big advantage that Whiscash has as a Choice Band user over its competition is its decent Speed stat, allowing it to allocate more EVs into its bulk. With just 44 Speed EVs, Whiscash outspeeds minimum Speed Chimecho and Flareon and everything below, including most other Choice Band users, giving it a leg up on slower defensive teams. Naughty is the nature chosen so as to not weaken Surf's power, and lowering Whiscash's Special Defense is of lesser consequence in the long run. If Surf doesn't suit your taste on this set, Hidden Power Bug or Hidden Power Ghost can be used instead, with Rock Slide then taking over Hidden Power Rock's slot. Hidden Power Bug is Whiscash's best move for Bellossom and other Grass-types, while Hidden Power Ghost nails Haunter and Chimecho.

Spikes support is appreciated, (AC) as this set is a bit unexpected and will inevitably force a lot of switches, thusly thus making it easier to nab some KOs Whiscash would otherwise miss out on. Roselia makes a naturally good partner to Whiscash, (AC) as it covers its horrid Grass-type weakness. Flareon is also a stellar partner and can pass Wishes to Whiscash to keep it healthy over the match. Another offensive teammate to clean up, such as Dragon Dance Pupitar and Bulk Up Vigoroth, is needed to make use of the holes Whiscash is going to punch in the opponent's team.

[SET]
name: Substitute Stallbreaker
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Surf
move 4: Ice Beam / Toxic / Hidden Power Grass
item: Leftovers
ability: Oblivious
nature: Mild
evs: 172 HP / 148 Atk / 144 SpA / 44 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

This set merges Whiscash's offensive and defensive potential to mold it into a deadly stallbreaker when used correctly. Whiscash's typing is perfectly suited to counteract the most common stall and defensive archetypes in the tier, with only other bulky Water-types standing in Whiscash's way of total team decimation. With the moves and EV spread given, Whiscash can create 101 HP Substitutes, giving it a totally free set up setup against standard physically defensive Sableye (RC) and proceed to letting it cleanly 2HKO it with Surf. Roselia, Flareon, and Mawile are all easily 2HKOed by Earthquake, and Substitute protects Whiscash from the former two's Grass-type attacks. The last slot is dedicated to how you want Whiscash to handle the opponent's bulky Water- or Grass-type. Toxic is the best all-around (AH) choice for weakening Dewgong, Wailord, and Bellossom in the long run but is easily worked around if the opponent has a cleric or is RestTalk user. Hidden Power Grass deals some decent chip damage to Wailord and especially other Whiscash and Relicanth. Ice Beam will absolutely shred Tangela and deals a decent chunk to offensive Bellossom, and Earthquake + Ice Beam has pretty stellar coverage in the tier.

[ADDITIONAL SET COMMENTS]

It's not recommended to deviate from the EV spread given, (AC) as it is specifically tailored to achieve the KOes KOs Whiscash needs. However, a different nature can be used depending on how you would like Whiscash to fair fare against other threats outside of defensive stall teams. This Whiscash set thrives on Spikes support to weaken the opponent's bulky Water-type and help Whiscash nab the KOes KOs that it wants to. Roselia is the best option, (AC) as it covers Whiscash's Grass-type weakness perfectly, although Glalie can be used as a teammate since this set also fits well on the offensive teams that Glalie works best on. (or put a comma before since if you choose to keep this as is, not sure if this shortening is worth it) Pokemon that can lure in and eliminate the opponent's Water-type will also work wonders here, with a screen lure such as Piloswine and or Metang or and specially offensive Flareon making particularly good choices. Finally, Pokemon that work best with the opponent's stall core broken up are needed to make the most of this set. Late-game sweepers such as Huntail, Pidgeot, and Bellossom would be among the best choices.

[Other Options]

A fully specially defensive set is doable but ultimately strictly outclassed by Dewgong and Wailord due to Whiscash's unfortunate weakness to Grass-type attacks, which ultimately makes it an ineffective check to Fire- and Water-types that typically carry Hidden Power Grass. Rock Tomb and Icy Wind are interesting options considering Whiscash's middling Speed stat, potentially allowing it to tank an attack from, say, Haunter and finishing finish it off the following turn with Surf. Spark is a cool option that allows Whiscash to run Grass, Electric, and Ice coverage all in one moveset, something very few other Pokemon can accomplish in NU, but Whiscash's Special Attack is pretty lackluster to make the most of it.

[Checks and Counters]

Bellossom is probably the best overall switch-in to Whiscash, (AC) as it resists Whiscash's STAB attacks, doesn't take too much from Ice Beam, and can easily OHKO Whiscash with its Grass-type STAB moves. Roselia and Tangela will also both easily KO Whiscash but need to be more careful around Earthquake and Ice Beam, respectively. Pelipper and other bulky Water-types will usually take a pittance from Whiscash's moves and can threaten back with Hidden Power Grass more than it can threaten them, but all will dislike getting hit by Toxic. Especially strong physical attackers will still break even maximum Defense Whiscash, such as Choice Band Flareon and Kingler. Finally, most anything else with a Grass-type attack, such as Haunter, Plusle, Venomoth, and or Huntail, can consider themselves itself an effective check to Whiscash.
 

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