Why haven't we seriously considered banning Protean instead of Greninja

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Jumpman16

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I will make this brief because I'm on my phone (work blocks smogon), but it doesn't appear that there have been serious qualitative discussions around the banishment of the Ability Protean instead of the Pokémon Greninja. Please forgive me if I am ignorant of any such discussions (and summarily please link me to said discussions). In the meantime, I'm going to posit a few fact-based assumptions:

[15:17] <SmogIRC-537> !usage1337 greninja abilities
[15:17] <@TIBot> Protean 99.273% | Torrent 0.727%
1) We are not concerned with the 0.727% of users who use Torrent Greninja.

2) We, by extension, are only concerned with Protean Greninja.

3) Our prior banishment of Moody is representative precedent of our capacity—and, arguably, willingness—to ban Abilities and not Pokémon where possible.

4) Our prior banishment of Swift Swim + Drizzle is representative precedent of our capacity—and, arguably, willingness—to consider and implement complex bans where possible.

[15:34] <SmogIRC-180> !usage1337 greninja abilities ou
[15:34] <@TIBot> Protean 99.273% | Torrent 0.727%
[15:34] <SmogIRC-180>
!usage1337 kecleon abilities ou
[15:34] <@TIBot> Protean 95.527% | Color Change 4.473%
5) Any banishment of any other pokémon that have the Ability Protean from using said Ability could be evaluated separately.

[15:36] <SmogIRC-180> !usage1337 kecleon ou
[15:36] <@TIBot> Kecleon - #213 in OU | Usage: 0.03564% | Raw count: 10,702 | Weight: 0.000341423359145
6) Kecleon, currently #213 in OU usage and used in 1 of every 2,806 teams, is not a significant reason to not consider the banishment of the Ability Protean in the event that assumption 4) were not regarded as valid.

I implore whoever is currently running the OU Suspect Test, and any others persons of influence, to consider these assumptions carefully and offer his or her thoughts in this thread as soon as possible.
 

Oglemi

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Not a part of the current OU council but I was a part of the tiering philosophy conversation through most of BW. The main argument boils down to banning what is least restrictive. Precedent in this case being Blaziken. The major part that made Blaziken broken was Speed Boost (and subsequently its Mega Evolution, but still Speed Boost). The reason Blaziken itself was banned was because it was the least restrictive ban possible; banning Speed Boost restricts a few other Pokemon from being used to their full non-broken potential (Sharpedo mostly, but Yanmega/Ninjask/etc. as well). So it was clear that Blaziken + Speed Boost was the broken factor, but that creates a complex ban which are generally unwanted (a point that's still debated, but policy-wise was determined at the beginning of BW, especially during the Drizzle+Swift Swim ban, to be the most desirable). It's far easier while being the least restrictive to ban Blaziken on the whole despite Blaziken + Speed Boost and Blaziken + Blazikenite being what pushes it overboard.

Greninja is very similar to the Blaziken case in that banning Greninja on the whole is the least restrictive ban. Protean is what makes Greninja broken, but that is not the case for Kecleon and probably most other recipients of the ability in the future should there be any.

Moody was banned on the whole because it was broken on every Pokemon that received it (even arguably Bidoof, iirc makiri got to the top of the ladder with a Bidoof/Bibarel team). The same could be said of Sand Veil in BW, despite Sandslash and Cacturne not being used very often, it was very clear that Sand Veil was the broken (or uncompetitive, but that's mostly semantics in this regard) part of Garchomp and arguably broken on Gliscor as well.

You can read about some of the tiering philosophy in the past generation or so here though this centers mostly around moves, here which centers around Blaziken and Excadrill in BW, a little bit here on Moody though it focuses mostly on Moody in Ubers there might be some links to the discussion in regards to OU. There's been a few more in IS and I can find them if necessary but those are the easily found ones.
 

Dread Arceus

total cockhead
I think the reason we avoid complex bans in general is to be as close to cartridge as possible. Bans are intended to be necessary to keep the meta in check while keeping it is close to cartridge play as possible, so doing something like banning Protean over Greninja is sort of like "playing god" because we'd like Greninja to stay. It also makes you wonder why you wouldn't start banning broken abilities in lower tiers; why not ban Gale Wings from all tiers below OU, or Huge Power from all tiers below UU?
 

Jumpman16

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Not a part of the current OU council but I was a part of the tiering philosophy conversation through most of BW. The main argument boils down to banning what is least restrictive. Precedent in this case being Blaziken. The major part that made Blaziken broken was Speed Boost (and subsequently its Mega Evolution, but still Speed Boost). The reason Blaziken itself was banned was because it was the least restrictive ban possible; banning Speed Boost restricts a few other Pokemon from being used to their full non-broken potential (Sharpedo mostly, but Yanmega/Ninjask/etc. as well). So it was clear that Blaziken + Speed Boost was the broken factor, but that creates a complex ban which are generally unwanted (a point that's still debated, but policy-wise was determined at the beginning of BW, especially during the Drizzle+Swift Swim ban, to be the most desirable). It's far easier while being the least restrictive to ban Blaziken on the whole despite Blaziken + Speed Boost and Blaziken + Blazikenite being what pushes it overboard.

Greninja is very similar to the Blaziken case in that banning Greninja on the whole is the least restrictive ban. Protean is what makes Greninja broken, but that is not the case for Kecleon and probably most other recipients of the ability in the future should there be any.
I agree that he Blaziken example is applicable here, and we can likely agree that banning Blaziken was the "least restrictive" since it allowed 3-4 other pokemon to have their full, unbroken potential at their disposal. What I fail to grasp is how you or anyone else would feel that Protean falls in the same boat. We would be restricting roughly 10,023 usages of Kecleon (all its Protean usages) if we were to ban Protean. Do we really think that we would be restricting less than 10,023 usages of Torrent Greninja by banning Greninja and not just its possibly broken ability? I really, really doubt we think that, but I am honestly not even sure "we" considered it.

Moody was banned on the whole because it was broken on every Pokemon that received it (even arguably Bidoof, iirc makiri got to the top of the ladder with a Bidoof/Bibarel team). The same could be said of Sand Veil in BW, despite Sandslash and Cacturne not being used very often, it was very clear that Sand Veil was the broken (or uncompetitive, but that's mostly semantics in this regard) part of Garchomp and arguably broken on Gliscor as well.
I"m glad you mentioned Sandslash and Cacturne because they are equivalent to Kecleon in this scenario. I don't think Sand Veil is universally broken/uncompetitive, as you didn't mention Diglett or Sandshrew or any else that could have Sand Veil in BW. Please note that I'm not picking on you or even just being needlessly semantic, but one can't mention the merits of Bidoof in BW/XY OU without mentioning the merits of Sand Veil Sandshrew in OU as well. I don't think anyone could have proved Sand Veil Sandshrew or Diglett broken the way makiri did with Moody Bidoof, and this underlines that Sand Veil was a much messier issue (with "infinite" sand available back then) and many pokemon to consider (~18 pokemon had Sand Veil at their disposal). Only four pokemon have Protean at their disposal, and I doubt the 97 Speed Frogadier will have the same impact Greninja does (though who knows with Modest Scarf).

You can read about some of the tiering philosophy in the past generation or so here though this centers mostly around moves, here which centers around Blaziken and Excadrill in BW, a little bit here on Moody though it focuses mostly on Moody in Ubers there might be some links to the discussion in regards to OU. There's been a few more in IS and I can find them if necessary but those are the easily found ones.
To quote you from the "Suspecting Moves" thread:

The reason evasion and ohko moves have been Claused is because they were broken and ridiculously stupid on anything that got them. And the reason we banned Moody was because it was broken on anything that got it, even Bidoof. We didn't ban Speed Boost when Blaziken got it, we banned Blaziken...I'm not arguing against that Scald is annoying to face; Spore is too and Lava Plume, etc. But if we are going to stick with our philosophy of only banning what's broken we can't ban a move that isn't broken on every Pokemon that gets it. If we want to ban something to make a more enjoyable metagame on the other hand... then that opens up more possibilities.
This boils down to how "inconvenient" we think not-so-complex bans are. I think Speed Boost + Blaziken should have been the ban, because BW Blaze Blaziken has just as much merit as ORAS Torrent Greninja...yet "we" have (sometimes) restricted more than what is actually broken because it was inconvenient not to. Yet we didn't do this with Swift Swim + Drizzle. An a much, much less "complex" ban in Protean + Greninja is not even being considered for some reason, or even "Ban Protean". And we are going to potentially, if Greninja ends up getting banned, restrict the use of a perfectly viable competitive option in Torrent Greninja because of convenience and conveniently applied precedent? It just doesn't smell right to me.
 

kokoloko

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if the idea is to make bans to be as least restrictive as possible, then banning protean actually makes more sense given that torrent greninja would still be more useful than protean kecleon.

no to mention that shit would be yum in UU huehuehue
 

nyttyn

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Protean clearly isn't broken on all of its users. Greninja is not broken because it has access to Protean - it is broken because it has access to Protean in addition to everything else it has. Ergo, Greninja gets banned, because Greninja is what's broken, not Protean. That's it, if you start getting into "X + Y" individual bans you wind up with a incoherent clusterfuck of a banlist that's a pain to explain to new users and needlessly complicated for the sake of keeping favorites unbanned.

Christ, this is king's shield aegislash all over again.

Edit: Of course if Greninja doesn't get banned this is all moot anyways.
 

Oglemi

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if the idea is to make bans to be as least restrictive as possible, then banning protean actually makes more sense given that torrent greninja would still be more useful than protean kecleon.

no to mention that shit would be yum in UU huehuehue
By sheer numbers a Protean ban affects more Pokemon (Greninja/Frogadier in lower tiers/Kecleon) whereas a Greninja ban affects 1 Pokemon (Greninja). Or you could argue it affects 1 ability (Protean) to 1 Pokemon (Greninja), and weighing the importance that way, which is just another way of looking at it and where I can see the idea of it being less restrictive comes from.

Again, I'm not involved on the tiering side this gen so take what you will with a grain of salt since I'm not calling the shots but that's my understanding of the situation and logic.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
We're not banning Protean cause Protean itself isn't broken, much like Speed Boost itself isn't broken (in Blaziken's case). It's the combination of Protean, 122 base Speed, usable attacking stats and a massive learnset that makes Greninja extremely threatening (do note that I'm not sure myself that Greninja is "overpowered").

Banning Protean on just Greninja is also not on the table. We're not going to implement any complex ban in order to preserve one single Pokémon (that, anyway, would probably see next to no usage in OU without its hidden ability), not to mention the terrible precedent it would set in regards to our tiering policy.
 
At the risk of rehashing a few arguments that have already been presented in this thread, I'd like to present a couple of thoughts of my own because...well, just because.

On Aldaron's Proposal/the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban: As Aldaron made clear during the discussions at the time of the vote on this particular ban, DrizzleSwim was designed to be a one-time deal that was only enacted because of the sheer volume of the problem set before us at the time. The issue with Drizzle + Swift Swim encompassed more than just one Pokemon (as is the case with Greninja and Protean); it encompassed an entire playstyle and multiple Pokemon that were broken under it. We were stuck between a rock and a hard place because we had three simple ban options, each with a certain amount of unfortunate collateral damage that would occur as a result. Banning Drizzle would have eliminated an entire subset of Rain-based playstyles and could have very well led to an unbalance in the weather game, causing an increased need for bans regarding Sun (and possibly even Sand). Banning Swift Swim would have eliminated the possibility of non-Drizzle Swift Swim abuse (rare but viable). More importantly, it would have soft-banned several Pokemon that only had Swift Swim as an ability at the time (I believe Floatzel was one such case). The Pokemon in question may have not been very relevant in OU to begin with, but essentially banning Pokemon that have no reason to be banned goes against our ban philosophy. The third option would have been to ban the broken abusers, but there were already a pretty solid number of Swift Swim users that were considered to be broken. Doing so would have resulted in a pretty large number of Pokemon bans all focused around this one central breaking factor, not to mention the possibility of more broken Swift Swim users rising in usage that we may have not noticed before due to the competition among such Pokemon. Drizzle + Swift Swim was a drastic answer to a drastic situation that encompassed entire playstyles and left us with no simple solutions.

On a side note, there are actually quite a few BW players that think that we should have gone ahead and banned Drizzle early in the generation so as to save ourselves some trouble later into BW, so it might not be the best idea to use DrizzleSwim as an argument. Just a thought.

On the Sand Veil ban and collateral damage on lower tier Pokemon: Again, there is a major difference between banning Protean for Greninja's sake and banning Sand Veil during the BW2 era. The first major reason is that Sand Veil (and Snow Cloak by extension) were considered to be uncompetitive abilities due to the luck factor that they brought to the game. Not only that, but we also had a precedent for such a ban due to our current Evasion Clause. The clause was designed to prevent factors in games that would introduce too much a luck due to evasion manipulation, and Sand Veil and Snow Cloak, despite being a bit more situational, did fall into this category. Another factor involved in this decision was the numerous Pokemon that became a problem thanks to Sand Veil abuse. Garchomp was banned primarily because of how effectively it abused Sand Veil and used those misses to completely destroy teams, even if they had a pretty solid check or counter to it. Although it was the only one that was banned, it wasn't the only issue. Gliscor had gotten a lot of attention at the time because it was able to pull off a Garchomp-esque SubSD set that could abuse a single miss to sweep teams with its STAB Acrobatics and Earthquake. There were even stories of people using Cacturne successfully due to its ability to sweep if it got lucky enough under Sand. In addition, banning the abilities allowed us to release Garchomp from Ubers in the hope that it would be a positive contributor to the OU metagame. Now, I am NOT saying that the Sand Veil ban was all about getting Garchomp out of Ubers, as is a common misconception. I am saying, however, that it was a nice little perk to a ban that was mostly centered around the uncompetitive aspect of Sand Veil. Given the luck factor introduced by Sand Veil, the precedent we already had with Evasion Clause for banning evasion-based aspects of the game, the multiple Pokemon that were able to abuse that luck factor successfully (granted, some more so than others), and the minor but positive factor of having Garchomp back in OU, it was decided that the Sand Veil ban would be a wise decision.

As far as collateral damage goes, you have to remember that the Sand Veil ban didn't do too much to lower-tier Pokemon. All of them had other abilities that they could use, and Sand Veil itself was basically a blank ability in lower tier play due to the fact that there were no Sand Stream users and manual Sandstorm was a waste of time more often than not. In addition, unless I'm forgetting something, the only Pokemon that actually suffered from move illegalities with its alternate ability was Cacturne (the moves in question were Encore and Bullet Seed, if I'm not mistaken). However, even then, Cacturne still had viable alternatives to its lost moves (Substitute and Seed Bomb were the main ones brought up as replacements), so it wasn't a huge hit to its viability. Banning Protean, by contrast, would have a much more substantial impact on a certain lower-tier Pokemon: Kecleon. Once it got Protean and all the great tutor moves in ORAS, Kecleon actually turned out to be a pretty solid choice in lower tier play. Banning Protean would rob Kecleon of its main niche and would cause it to fall into the mediocrity that it suffered for the last few generations, as opposed to Cacturne, who just lost a couple of key moves. It would also destroy any chance that Frogadier would have of being viable at all in NU or lower (it's currently C Rank in NU and B Rank in PU). Of course, we must keep in mind that collateral damage involving Pokemon in lower tiers (much less Other Metagames like PU, even if it is a mere extension of our standard tiers) is an extremely minuscule concern when we're discussing OU policy and will generally mean virtually nothing except in extreme circumstances (i.e. unintentionally soft-banning several non-banworthy lower tier Pokemon had we implemented a Swift Swim ban in BW). However, in the event that you do want to discuss collateral damage, I'd say that a Protean ban would have a larger impact than the Sand Veil ban.

On Greninja and Protean: So where does that leave use with Greninja and Protean? When compared to these aforementioned bans, a Protean ban is nowhere near as necessary or justifiable. Unlike DrizzleSwim, a Protean ban would only concern a single Pokemon rather than entire playstyles, and the more simple and standard ban (just banning Greninja) has nowhere near as many negative side effects as the simple ban options did during the time of the DrizzleSwim test. The only real negative is the inability to use Greninja in OU, which is no different from many other OU Pokemon bans and is not high on our list of concerns. There are also several differences when compared to the Sand Veil ban. Unlike Sand Veil, Protean is not an inherently uncompetitive ability, a factor which we have always tried to limit as much as reasonably possible through our tiering decisions. It also does not have a precedent ban regarding its primary effect like we had with the Evasion Clause and Sand Veil. Moreover, Greninja is the only Protean user that is even a slight problem in the current metagame, whereas Sand Veil helped break Garchomp while causing other Pokemon to be problems at times (Gliscor, again, was the big one here). Lastly, even in the case of collateral damage for lower tier Pokemon (hardly a concern), it can be argued that a Protean ban would have a more significant effect on its lower-tier users than the Sand Veil ban did. A more comparable example would be Speed Boost + Blaziken, which has already been discussed in both this thread and many, many times elsewhere on this forum. The bottom line regarding that argument is that we have decided over and over that simple bans regarding Pokemon such as Blaziken and BW Excadrill are far more desirable than complex bans involving their powerful abilities due to the more simple nature of the bans and the can of worms that we would open up if we did implement such complex bans. The best decision to make in this case is to simply ban Greninja, and I don't think that past bans such as DrizzleSwim and Sand Veil are enough to justify a Protean ban.

On a side note, I'm kinda glad to have a chance to articulate my thoughts on ban precedents and complex bans (mainly regarding ideas like Drizzle + Swift Swim, Sand Veil / Snow Cloak, and Speed Boost + Blaziken), because I don't think I've ever done that here.
 

Jumpman16

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Banning Protean on just Greninja is also not on the table. We're not going to implement any complex ban in order to preserve one single Pokémon (that, anyway, would probably see next to no usage in OU without its hidden ability), not to mention the terrible precedent it would set in regards to our tiering policy.
If you are so sure that Greninja would have "next to no usage in OU without its hidden ability", then:

1) Doesn't it stand to reason that its ability and its ability alone is the overwhelming reason it is "extremely threatening"? And that the "122 base speed, usable attacking stats and a massive learnset" you also cited have "next to no" bearing on why Greninja would be banned? And;

2) Would this not also result in the most, and not least, restrictive change to OU, given that we would, in your estimation, be whittling down the usage of the #4 pokémon in OU from 825,283 usage down to "next to no usage"?
 

Syberia

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I'm all for banning "Protean + Greninja" and "Speed Boost + Blaziken" if that's what Smogon wants, as there's no real way to argue that it's not the least restrictive means to accomplish the goal. Of course the usual "slippery slope" argument that this opens the door to Mewtwo knowing only Confusion being allowed in OU, but I've never been a fan of that one and I'd really, really like to think Smogon has more common sense than that.
 
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jpw234

Catastrophic Event Specialist
It's not like the slippery slope is all that Farfetch'd. We already had a loud minority asking for a ban of King's Shield when Aegislash was tested. You can refer to common sense, but what's the common sense difference between banning Greninja + Protean and banning Aegislash + King's Shield? Both are close to unique to the pokemon, and are the most imporant part of the pokemon's utility. What's the difference between that and banning Darkrai + Dark Void? Both are signature moves that give the Pokemon a huge part of its viability. How about Shaymin-S and Air Slash? Not a signature move anymore, but it's run on every set and clearly the most broken part of the Pokemon. What about Genesect and U-Turn?

You can handwave about common sense if you want, but very few people have ever accused the community of being high in common sense.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
If you are so sure that Greninja would have "next to no usage in OU without its hidden ability", then:

1) Doesn't it stand to reason that its ability and its ability alone is the overwhelming reason it is "extremely threatening"? And that the "122 base speed, usable attacking stats and a massive learnset" you also cited have "next to no" bearing on why Greninja would be banned? And;

2) Would this not also result in the most, and not least, restrictive change to OU, given that we would, in your estimation, be whittling down the usage of the #4 pokémon in OU from 825,283 usage down to "next to no usage"?
I'm merely speculating on the "next to no usage" part. According to some players, Greninja might get some usage regardless of Protean, because of its access to Spikes and its high Speed. However, it doesn't really matter here. To answer your questions:
1) Protean is undoubtedly the main factor that may be pushing Greninja over the edge, however, Protean itself is not broken, nor uncompetitive. Kecleon is NU, after all. Again, think about Blaziken. Speed Boost is certainly not broken on Pokémon such as Sharpedo or Yanmega, however it immediately made Blaziken overpowered. It's rarely a single factor that makes a Pokémon overpowered. Usually it's a combination of more factors. I might mention countless examples here;
2) Why does it matter? The same drastic drop in usage has happened to many other PoKémon, the moment we've banned their mega stone.
 

Reverb

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Banning Protean sets a bad precedent, and we should not ban it for the same reason we did not ban King's Shield on Aegislash, or Spikes on Deoxys-D/S. It's convoluted--something that will confuse people; we want our decisions to be clear cut and easy to comprehend. As Haunter previously stated, the ability itself is not broken, so there is no reason to ban it outright. As far banning it in conjunction with Greninja, that creates yet another complicated rule. If you take this proposal to its logical end, you could justify allowing Arceus in OU provided it only holds Heavy Ball and runs no setup moves. It just isn't a desirable way to regulate the game. In sum, we want clear rules and a desirable metagame. Banning Protean is anathema to these objectives.
 

Jumpman16

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We "want" a bunch of things, among them being "least restrictive" changes. There is absolutely a reason to ban Protean outright, and that is to uphold the "least restrictive" metagame. The Drizzle + Swift Swim ban is already complicated and confusing to the layperson, and banning an ability with a pokemon is less confusing than this (even though I have proposed banning Protean outright because Kecleon is objectively a non-factor in OU).

The logical end of this proposal would not justify allowing some nerfed Arceus in OU, because Arceus has never been allowed in OU. Greninja has. Gunk Shot and Low Kick may be the straws that broke the camel's back, but no one is arguing that Protean isn't the reason it's a problem. Just like no one argued that Gengarite wasn't the problem and not Gengar itself, and we enjoy a desirable OU metagame with Gengar sitting at #22 (and both Lucario and Salamence in the top-100 with their Mega Stones banned).

"Protean is banned in OU" is a completely clear rule, and Greninja minus Protean is clearly a desirable metagame for some (namely, it would be difficult to argue that Torrent Greninja is part of an undesirable metagame). As Syberia said, common sense should dictate that allowing Arceus holding an Iron Ball would never fly, and here's why. First, please don't regard this as me thumping my chest or whatever, I hardly post anymore and am not interested in any kind of dickwaving or "look how big my dick used to be". With that out of the way, I ran pokemon policy for a generation, and I humbly think that, objectively and as far as floating policy suggestions are concerned, my reputation should precede me. And yet, I'm pretty sure "you all" aren't going to listen to me about Protean, which is fine. But why on earth would you be afraid of having your arm twisted by some future, less respected entity that would suggest something like Iron Ball, no-setup-move Arceus?

Finally, every time I see "slippery slope" I roll my eyes because despite it being an classic logical fallacy, it implies that our policy makers are too bowlegged to stand up straight and use common sense to make and uphold sound pokemon policy. I really wish people would stop appealing to that weak-minded way of thinking.
 

Lumari

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This discussion reminds me of a discussion in UU some time ago, during Victini's retest there was talk of just (re)banning V-create rather than Victini as a whole. In the end that didn't go through, mainly because a) the move in a vacuum isn't broken, b) Victini is far more complex than just V-create turning it from a shitmon into a brokemon, its enormous coverage also played a huge part, and c) the express purpose of the ban would be to nerf Victini, not remove a harmful game element in solely V-create

good post on the matter that articulates it way better than I can: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...l-next-scolipede.3516640/page-15#post-5766720
Just because V-Create is only usable on Victini and V-Create contributes to Victini being potentially broken does not mean that V-Create is the sole reason Victini is broken, nor does it mean that the solution is to eliminate it. There are several reasons why saying "it's a v-create ban, not a victini ban" is faulty.

1. The express purpose of the ban is not to eliminate the gameplay mechanic or playstyle created from the use of V-Create, but rather to nerf Victini to a point where it would be usable. The same argument of "it's a (move ban), not a Victini ban" could be applied to Blue Flare or Bolt Strike, as the only Pokemon who can use these moves in UU is Victini.

2. As its express purpose is to nerf Victini, it implies that banning V-Create is the optimal way to balance Victini, when this is not the case. There are numerous factors that lead to Victini's viability in the tier - it's the only offensive fire with a really great move to hit bulky waters, it gets U-turn, it has a great "support" move in Trick, it has the ability to go mixed...why do we single out V-Create and say that it's the sole factor that pushes Victini over the "edge" and makes it broken?

3. There is absolutely nothing about V-create that is uncompetitive. It's very easy to point to the high BP and freak out, but the entire fucking design of Victini revolves around using high - BP, mid-accuracy moves to transcend its mediocre offensive stats and deal massive damage. Just look at its two other signature moves - Bolt Strike provides a nearly 100% accurate, 130 BP move with no negative side effects and a paralysis chance just short of scald's burn chance. Blue flare is near the power of Overheat, with no negative side effects and a burn chance just short of scald. These are not your standard coverage / move options, and among these, V-Create really doesn't seem all too ridiculous anymore. It's high BP, yes, but it has crippling side effects. It's only slightly stronger than Darmanitan's Flare Blitz - and the comparison is actually quite appropriate, at first glance, "omg no 180 BP darm sux", but Darmanitan has sky-high attack. If Victini didn't have its high BP moves, it would be underwhelming as hell - look at Raikou (who's 115, not 100). All of the wallbreakers in the tier either have ridiculously high stats that allow them to break through teams with normal moves (Chandelure, Darmanitan) or rely on abilities, boosting moves, or high BP moves to bolster their middling stats and turn them into powerhouses (Darmanitan's coverage, Nidoking, Victini, Shaymin). V-Create is not out of place, and suggesting that its BP inherently makes it broken ignores the larger context.

TL;DR -

It's a Victini nerf. No two ways about that. Nothing about V-Create is out of place or uncompetitive, picking on it is arbitrary and ignores Victini's complexity, and the precedent that intentionally nerfing a specific pokemon sets is not desirable.
Anyway, most of those arguments also apply to Greninja. Protean isn't the only reason that Greninja is (for now still allegedly) broken, it's the combination of Protean+excellent Speed and good offensive stats+absurd coverage; the ability Protean isn't broken in itself (don't even have to resort to a hypothetical Protean Corsola for this; even, say, Protean Mega Pidgeot would be far from broken imo); and as for nerfing Greninja, I can't quote anyone on that but it is the vibe I'm getting. Not gonna delve too deeply into this because most has been said on the matter.

Even taking only abilities and simple bans on these into account, this isn't limited to Greninja. If Protean is banned because it's the main factor that pushes Greninja over the edge (i.e. constitutes a problem in the metagame) and has no other viable abusers (thus minimising collateral damage), would we then also have to ban Huge Power from UU and unban Diggersby? After all, Diggersby is the only viable Huge Power abuser available below OU, and I don't think there's any doubt that Huge Power is the main factor that pushes it over the edge. In the (hypothetical obviously) scenario that Dragalge were to prove broken in RU, would that constitute a ban on Adaptability rather than Dragalge? Again, Dragalge is balanced without its HA and there are no other viable abusers in RU and below. No slippery slope or anything here on my part because these scenarios are exactly analogous to Protean Greninja. And even then - banning Huge Power from UU and unbanning Diggersby, while at the same time leaving Crawdaunt banned rather than banning Adaptability - afaik Porygon-Z isn't gonna be broken anytime soon - does come off quite arbitrary on the surface at least. Both mons as a complete package are broken as hell, Diggersby just happened not to share the element that pushed it over the edge with any other mons.

You're right, nobody in their right mind would allow Arceus+Iron Ball in OU, and 'ban Protean' is a completely clear rule. What's not clear, however, is a banlist that consists of a) banned mons and formes (for all intents and purposes the Mega stone bans do come down to this), and b) abilities/moves (because this would be analogous to simple bans on King's Shield and V-create) solely banned for the express purpose of nerfing their (main) abusers because the circumstances happened to allow it (in addition to the few claused moves/abilities we already have). Imo banning Protean would not be because of the ability in a vacuum being inherently uncompetitive/broken or whatever you wanna call it but solely in order to nerf its main/only abuser, and it would make the tiering system unnecessarily convoluted
 
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We "want" a bunch of things, among them being "least restrictive" changes. There is absolutely a reason to ban Protean outright, and that is to uphold the "least restrictive" metagame. The Drizzle + Swift Swim ban is already complicated and confusing to the layperson, and banning an ability with a pokemon is less confusing than this (even though I have proposed banning Protean outright because Kecleon is objectively a non-factor in OU).
We aren't just interested in creating the least restrictive change possible. We're also interested in banning what actually needs to be banned. Protean alone is not broken, period. This should be obvious by the fact that Greninja is the only user of the ability that is even remotely banworthy right now. This is far, far different from Moody (which you mentioned in the OP), which allowed even crap users like Bidoof to completely destroy Ubers teams just by getting lucky enough. Greninja is the problem here, so we ban Greninja. We have never tried to create such rules to save other single Pokemon from bans, so why start with Greninja? Just because you think it's less restrictive? I mean, if you really want to split hairs, I'd argue that banning Protean would be even more restrictive, not less. Banning Protean would affect 4 Pokemon while banning Greninja would only affect 1, but whatever. The bottom line is that when a Pokemon is broken, we have always banned the Pokemon. Why is it so important that we change that policy now?

Finally, every time I see "slippery slope" I roll my eyes because despite it being an classic logical fallacy, it implies that our policy makers are too bowlegged to stand up straight and use common sense to make and uphold sound pokemon policy. I really wish people would stop appealing to that weak-minded way of thinking.
First, please don't start with this "weak-minded" crap. So many of these kinds of discussions turn into garbage largely because people start throwing around insults like "weak-minded" or "whiny babies," and I'd rather not see that happen here.

Second, this isn't just about slippery slopes, it's about setting dangerous precedents. No one seriously thinks that we're gonna start allowing silly stuff like Iron Ball Arceus with no STABs or whatever. However, as soon as you start getting into this mindset of, "How much do we have to neuter Pokemon X in order for it to be manageable in OU?", then there's nothing stopping you from trying to create other nerfs to allow other Pokemon in OU for the sake of being less restrictive. You have to realize that you're dealing with a community made of thousands of players, real human beings with their own biases and preferences. You can't play favorites with Greninja because I'm sure there are a ton of other players out there that loved using Genesect, Deoxys-S/D, etc. in OU and would love to create nerfs to have them back again. It could be banning the Pokemon with a certain abilities, certain moves, and I'm sure level caps could even be a possibility if you found someone who was able to articulate an argument for it well enough. The more of these bans you implement, the more complicated and messy our banlist gets, which makes it even harder for newer users to get used to our rules and learn the metagame. And in case you want to bring Moody up again as a precedent, this isn't just a ban on an ability that is universally broken or uncompetitive like Moody was. It's specifically an attempt to castrate Greninja in order to keep it from being banned, and once you start going down that hill, there will be no reason to just stop at Protean and Greninja.

I really think this discussion needs a lot more "Why?" and a lot less "Why not?" So many times when these sorts of discussions pop up (whether it's Protean, Speed Boost Blaziken, Sand Rush Excadrill, or whatever else), the people proposing the ban spend a lot of time trying to appeal to certain precedents and challenging the other side to offer counterarguments without first explaining why their proposed change is necessary. If you want to change the status quo, then the burden of proof is on you first to explain why we need this change. Just look at this thread; we've got plenty of arguments about precedent and slippery slopes, yet we have very little reasoning as to why a Protean ban is necessary in the first place rather than a straight Greninja ban. The only real point I've seen you make is that it's less restrictive, but as I've already explained, A) our bans are based on more than just what is least restrictive and B) it can be argued that banning Protean would actually be technically more restrictive than banning Greninja. Not that the difference is even that huge, because there's no guarantee that Greninja would even be relevant in OU without Protean. I want to see substantial reasoning as to why we need to change our ban stance. Is there a significant benefit to having Torrent Greninja in this metagame? What would it offer that the metagame currently needs? Contrarily, is there a significant drawback to losing Greninja as a whole? Is there some unique way that it contributes that is important to the health of the metagame and that we would miss with a simple ban? These are the kinds of questions you need to start answering before we even begin to start discussing slippery slopes, precedents, and whatever else. Because honestly, if the main reason to go with a Protean ban is just so that people can use Greninja in OU, then no, we don't need to change the purpose of our suspect test to appease fanboys that just want to use Greninja outside of Ubers.
 
I've always been in the camp of when one certain element of a pokemon is what so overwhelmingly makes it broken, the pokemon should be preserved if that broken element can be removed. I know I've shared this sentiment to Haunter before and I stand by it - I don't even see the reason why it needs to be a whole ban on Protean. Greninja with Protean = broken, ban "Greninja with the Protean ability". If the community is so flustered it can't figure out why Protean would be banned on Greninja but allowed on Kecleon in OU, then I think the community is just pretty stupid, and that's not to offend any specific user. But really, common sense is so important and we could remove a broken piece of OU without actually getting rid of a Pokemon.

And before people say "well why not get rid of Swords Dance on Garchomp", this is a method for fixing a Pokemon that community currently finds broken. We don't need to over complicate things. And as far as the "how about Sacred Fire on Ho-oh" argument, convince me why 1 certain move is what is broken about our current ubers. If you can actually convince me, then I'd suggest implementing a suspect test that follows suit (say King's Shield on Aegislash) but if you can't find something that pushes a Pokemon over the edge so drastically (such as Protean on Greninja for the quotes Jump already posted from Haunter), then there is no "slippery slope" or "ugly precedent". It's just allowing more options without being complicated. When you can say "Ho-oh has these stats with Regenerator, a ridiculous brave bird and recovery, etc." then you can't really pick just 1 thing to test.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
I was certainly in the majority anti-complex ban camp, but I think that kd24 makes some excellent points, to the extend that I now believe otherwise. The most prominent arguments against complex banning are 1) simplicity and 2) slippery slope (which is reasonable in this case. As far as simplicity goes, the community isn't that dumb. It is trivial to understand that Protean + Greninja is not legal, in a similar vein to understanding that Drizzle + Swift Swim is not legal. It is important to understand that these complex bans should occur if and only if the pokemon in question is undoubtedly made overpowered by the single move/ability/etc. in question. Greninja fits that case perfectly. Not only is it easy to remember that Greninja + Protean is illegal, it is also easy to understand why Protean is so superior to Torrent. This leads into the second argument as well. Slippery slope is not an issue if the restriction that a single characteristic is the undoubted force that makes the mon overpowered. Would Arceus be broken if it didn't have access to Extremespeed? Certainly. Would Ho-oh be broken without Sacred Fire? Yes. Would Genesect be broken without U-turn? Would Shaymin-S be broken without Seed Flare? It would certainly be nerfed, but Seed Flare was not the obvious sole breaking factor. Would Blaziken be broken without Speed Boost? Definitely not. Would Aegislash be broken without Kings Shield? Maybe, but that is where testing would come into play (via an attribute-less suspect ladder, if the attribute as opposed to the pokemon was up in the air). Realistically, these bans would not be too large an ordeal given that the vast majority of banned mons are exceptional in multiple facets. The obvious tests would be Aegislash and Darkrai if past bans were to be looked at with this policy, as Kings Shield is the obvious primary problem-area for Aegislash, while Darkrai is perhaps just a fantastic mon without Dark Void.

Arbitrary examples aside, the biggest argument, I think, for implementing complex bans is that the cost of making the ban list more "complicated" is less than the gain of allowing a pokemon with an obvious breaking factor back into the game.

As far as Aldaron's proposal goes, it was relatively unsuccessful, because Swift Swim was not the obvious breaking factor of rain. It was certainly a major factor, but it became clear that rain broke multiple other mons on top of Swift Swimmers. Greninja and Blaziken are obviously less complicated/easier to recognize a singular breaking factor than an entire playstyle (ie rain).
 
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Nix_Hex

Uangaana kasuttortunga!
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I've been an OU mod for quite some time now, well before BW2 came out. Ever since Blaziken was banned to ubers, I have had to put up with literally thousands of posts saying that we should unban Blaze Blaziken, pretending to disagree, deleting them under the guise of "I'm a Smogon OU moderator therefore I agree with all of the council's decisions and have to scold people who suggest this." I've had to explain to new users time after time that we don't do complex bans (except for Aldaron's proposal but that was a one time thing and somehow that makes sense!!!). Yet for some reason we treat our hypothetical new player-base like idiots and presume they can't comprehend "Greninja + Protean" or "Blaziken + Speed Boost" when these are the players clamoring to use those very Pokemon in the first place.

So which is it?
Are new players either
a) Stupid and unable to understand "complex" bans such as mon + ability / item / move?
b) Stupid fan boys who just want to use their favorites even if it means making "complex" bans such as mon + ability / item / move?
c) Not stupid at all, but eager to use their favorites while transitioning from casual fan to serious competitive player?

Notice that a and b contradict each other and yet are BOTH used by pompous Smogon fanatics when arguing about these things. Instead, I suggest we cater to group c, who can discover for themselves that Blaze Blaziken is unviable in OU and (hopefully) stop using it, letting it drop a few tiers by the time this generation is over. Let them discover for themselves that the lack of Protean is a serious nerf to Greninja and although it still has an amazing Speed tier and plenty of coverage, its attacking stats just aren't quite up to par. Maybe, some day, we can stop assuming new players to be brain dead morons who are unable to understand a few complex bans. And on the same token, how about we stop treating our council like they're stupid enough to let "ban Greninja + Protean" turn into "ban all Kyogre level 77 and over?" The OU council is a respectable group of players, and we have veto powers such as senior staff (and by that I mainly mean chaos) in case the council DOES make such a retarded decision.
 

jas61292

used substitute
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Obviously, as others have already said, it is pretty much never a single factor that breaks a Pokemon. It is the combination of multiple factors. In this case, it is not Protean that broke Greninja, but the combination of Protean and many other things. That obviously includes movepool, as many people will say it was not broken until it got Gunk Shot, but it is much more than that. Stats play a huge factor. If Greninja was slow it probably wouldn't be broken. Saying that Protean and Protean alone breaks Greninja is just blatant falsehood, as there are many other parts that, with their removal, would neuter Greninja just as much, if not more.

There are often individual factors that, without them, a broken Pokemon might not be broken. However, cherry-picking those factors does not make the factor the sole cause. As another example, King's Shield/Stance Change allowed Aegislash to change forms, and that contributed to it getting banned. But if its forms did not have such ridiculous stats in the first place, that wouldn't have mattered. It was the combination that did it, not the individual element.

Now, I've always hated complex bans, but there are ways that they can make sense. I definitely prefer the overcomplicated endless battle clause over something that bans a non-broken element for the sake of convenience. However, when it comes to actual Pokemon, moves, abilities and items, you need to look at the element in its entirety. And when you do so, 95% of the time, the broken element will be the Pokemon itself. A whole can be more than the sum of its parts, and, when it comes to the best Pokemon in the game, it usually is.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
The "there are many breaking factors" argument is being overstated. While understandable, it also ties back to the "common sense" argument. Just as how we can prevent slippery slope with common sense, we can realistically point out the obvious factor. It would be simpler if we set a restriction (ie. It must be the thing that best nerfs the mon to the point of it having no reasonable place in ubers, or something along those lines), but that can also be hard to define. It is my understanding that these bans are primarily to allow ou mons with a stellar trait (like speed boost) back into the lower tiers, or already-uber mons with a stellar trait (perhaps darkrai) back into OU. This guideline is somewhat a result of my personal view on the purpose of these complex bans (like drizzle-swim... Why ruin their chances as solid lower-tier mons).

Following this logic, Protean is the obvious factor here. Taking gunk shot away would nerf it, but not really. It would still be a top-tier ou mon, except it can no longer 1hko fairies. People had qualms with ninja pre-gunk shot anyway, and, to me, nerfing a mon a bit to keep it as a still-restrictive metagame presense is pointless and unnecesary. Taking away protean would grace lower tiers with a solid, fast mon, and OU would have another decent spiker.

Relevant argument from jumpman that provides perhaps the best explanation of "common sense" where a determining factor is concerned:
If you are so sure that Greninja would have "next to no usage in OU without its hidden ability", then:

1) Doesn't it stand to reason that its ability and its ability alone is the overwhelming reason it is "extremely threatening"? And that the "122 base speed, usable attacking stats and a massive learnset" you also cited have "next to no" bearing on why Greninja would be banned? And;
Blaziken is similar. you could restrict its stabs or something ridiculous like that, or just go with the obvious solution of removing speed boost.

Perhaps Aegislash would be a non-issue without shadowball? That is not an ideal nerf for obvious reasons as far as common sense goes.
 
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While understandable, it also ties back to the "common sense" argument. Just as how we can prevent slippery slope with common sense, we can realistically point out the obvious factor.
The problem with these "common sense" arguments is that "common sense" is such an ambiguous term that honestly means nothing. What exactly is common sense in this context? Where does it end? Where does it begin? What makes banning Protean Greninja more "common sense" than banning Gunk Shot Greninja, banning Speed Boost Blaziken more than banning Swords Dance / Baton Pass Blaziken, or whatever other examples someone might come up with? These arguments about certain hypothetical bans being stupid or against common sense are essentially meaningless because they're working on an assumption that the meanings of "common sense" and "stupidity" are universal, when in reality we have yet to actually define these parameters in this particular context.

Following this logic, Protean is the obvious factor here. Taking gunk shot away would nerf it, but not really. It would still be a top-tier ou mon, except it can no longer 1hko fairies. People had qualms with ninja pre-gunk shot anyway, and, to me, nerfing a mon a bit to keep it as a still-restrictive metagame presense is pointless and unnecesary. Taking away protean would grace lower tiers with a solid, fast mon, and OU would have another decent spiker.
This begs another question: why is it more desirable that we nerf a Pokemon as much as possible rather than as little as possible? How our bans affect lower tiers are of little to no concern when we decide OU policy. Rather, our OU policy decisions are designed based on their impact on the OU metagame. That said, would it not be better instead to make smaller changes so that a nerfed Pokemon could still be a major contributor to the metagame rather than making such a drastic change that the Pokemon would be far less relevant? Greninja without Gunk Shot might be much more manageable while still being a major contributor, while Greninja without Torrent might be lucky to find a niche as an OU (Toxic) Spiker. It isn't just limited to Greninja, either. Blaziken without Swords Dance would have nowhere near as much destructive power as it did before, but it might still have a shot at being a solid but not broken sweeper (you might have to ban Baton Pass as well, but that's another conversation). Meanwhile, Blaziken without Speed Boost would fall out of relevance in OU and would likely land in RU or lower. Why is it better to take the more drastic route with these nerfs rather than the smaller one (provided, of course, the Pokemon still isn't broken after the smaller change)? This sounds like another arbitrary rule just thrown out there for the sake of argument, and I honestly don't see why bigger nerfs are inherently more "right" than smaller ones.
 
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