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NOC Wikimafia, The Free Online Mafia [TOWN+BROIL WIN]
- Thread starter CaffeineBoost
- Start date
I'll make a better post about the M2H-Tommy-Hal situation I'm really trying to analyse it as I read through and not reactionarily spam bc it's complex enough to warrant that
But why did you ask about his take on both you and psy at the same time Hydro?
OK I caught up I'm gonna try and put thoughts out there.
Hal makes a lot of sense with regards to:
Where Hal doesn't make sense is:
I'm p sure I townread Hal and Litt, but I also feel like Litt is trying to get towncred via appeal to authority because his posts feel like they're coming from the top of the mafia information hierarchy. It's not particularly accessible to the newer players in this game and it's easy for them to have the following syllogism:
OM posting but remaining Switzerland on Hal vs Tommy is weird to me.
M2H feels super NAI my brain just is not coming up with a read on them at all.
Schiavato or whatever's spam feels performative.
I scumlean Hydro at the moment. People are saying his play is consistent with last game's, but Hydro has read every post in the last game (he liked all of them) and I think people are disregarding that fact. Psy in this game has a marked improvement from his performance last time either because he's coached this time or because he's reflected on last game and learned from it. I think it's the latter. Hydro's unwillingness to do that gives me the impression his objective this game is to appear town, not to be good town.
Everyone else feels neutral atm but Broil you seem cool.
Hal makes a lot of sense with regards to:
- Tommy's initial reasoning given for the modspew is not legitimate, I felt that as it was happening and was really confused why Caff mked. Hal's explanation makes a lot more sense, and I agree that that's difficult to notice as town, but is not an exclusively scum mentality
- Tommy posting that modspew in-thread is town-cred motivated because if town!Tommy actually thought that Caff hardspewed Whydon as town then he would discuss it with Caff privately. town!Tommy would only really bring up the modspew immediately for game integrity purposes. Tommy trying to get towncred from it, no less trying to pretend he's modspewed town himself (he isn't) feels incredibly scum motivated in a game with 4 second-time players and broil maybe being a first time player. Hal calling Tommy out for this precludes this from being S/S, I think.
- Tommy's push on M2H was incredibly performative. This is ongoing though, and is becoming slightly less performative if incredibly bad logic.
Where Hal doesn't make sense is:
- Tommy focussing on defending himself is scummy. Nothing else had happened besides the mk and succeeding push on Tommy by Hal.
- Tommy not providing reads on a wider range of players. See above point.
I'm p sure I townread Hal and Litt, but I also feel like Litt is trying to get towncred via appeal to authority because his posts feel like they're coming from the top of the mafia information hierarchy. It's not particularly accessible to the newer players in this game and it's easy for them to have the following syllogism:
- I don't really understand Litt's posts
- Litt's thoughts and analysis on the gamestate are really complex
- Litt is putting a lot of effort into trying to solve the game
- Solving the game is towny, so Litt is town
OM posting but remaining Switzerland on Hal vs Tommy is weird to me.
M2H feels super NAI my brain just is not coming up with a read on them at all.
Schiavato or whatever's spam feels performative.
I scumlean Hydro at the moment. People are saying his play is consistent with last game's, but Hydro has read every post in the last game (he liked all of them) and I think people are disregarding that fact. Psy in this game has a marked improvement from his performance last time either because he's coached this time or because he's reflected on last game and learned from it. I think it's the latter. Hydro's unwillingness to do that gives me the impression his objective this game is to appear town, not to be good town.
Everyone else feels neutral atm but Broil you seem cool.
#295 (?) is the case that is the focal point of the thread atm, but Litt advised me to read the whole thread for context and I think that was good advice.
is there a reason why hydro is a better vote than tommy in your opinion?
If Hal and Tommy are both town then if we focus on resolving it today, it's easy for mafia to push the other tomorrow, and then in D3 we're up shit's creek without a paddle due to over-centralised discussion.
The only thing I think about Hal/Tommy is that it isn't S/S. Whether it's T/S or T/T I'm undecided on, leaning toward the former but not confident enough to settle on that.
Psypsypsypsypsythe can you give a reads list?
I think you're either being good town or coached scum. A reads list is amazing either way lol
I think you're either being good town or coached scum. A reads list is amazing either way lol
I cant post my tier list cause I'm on mobile right now but I think I would say like
I was tring hydro but reading back over their posts I do kinda see what you're saying. the main ones that are weird to me tbh are 97 and 268. it feels like hydros trying to inquire about peoples reads on them like to course correct. what I wanna know is why hydro seemingly sides with tommy more than hal and outright said neither tommy nor hal should be voted here yet still has their vote on tommy
broil and clouds both had very good initial posts imo but I wanna see more before I solidly toweread them. more so from clouds than broil
tommy and hal I both feel very very mixed on since my gut feeling is that they both seem very genuine, but I think theyve each made decent points for why the others actions are scummy. I can see both of them as scum but more so tommy than hal
schiavetto, om, litt are together in the category of like mildly helpful low mid tier presences that I could see go either way. litt is unique from the other two in that hes a bit more pressuring which feels slightly more towny?
everyone else I literally do not know lol I liked your wall post celever and I dont really sr you for the initial post cause i just interpret it as you typing out stream of consciousness and then rereading immediately after like oops everything I just said is super weird. m2h I just dont know and I think I need to reread a bit for that
Went back to read Schia's (they're called Schia now) posts to confirm that they're performative (they are) and realised from it I forgot to talk about #208.
Yeah #208 is really anti-town I don't like it at all. Not because it's bad advice, but because it's self-awaredly WIFOM. The fact it's WIFOM isn't even the most anti-town thing about it, but rather that it was pointed out within the post that the advice is WIFOMy. It invalidates most nka this game because every conclusion can be hand-waved away as "just WIFOM", which technically is always true in any game, but after #208 it's inescapable.
In particular, the combination of #208 and Tommy saing at another point that "he always survives until lategame" rubs me the wrong way af. He advises people to question why someone has been kept alive, while talking about how he is always kept alive. It's a way of immunising himself from accusations of being kept around too long, and is therefore scum motivated.
Yeah #208 is really anti-town I don't like it at all. Not because it's bad advice, but because it's self-awaredly WIFOM. The fact it's WIFOM isn't even the most anti-town thing about it, but rather that it was pointed out within the post that the advice is WIFOMy. It invalidates most nka this game because every conclusion can be hand-waved away as "just WIFOM", which technically is always true in any game, but after #208 it's inescapable.
In particular, the combination of #208 and Tommy saing at another point that "he always survives until lategame" rubs me the wrong way af. He advises people to question why someone has been kept alive, while talking about how he is always kept alive. It's a way of immunising himself from accusations of being kept around too long, and is therefore scum motivated.
ftr I'm mixed on tommy and hal but I also agree that neither one of them is a particularly good vote today. I would rather see more people interact with the thread before pinpointing who to vote just personally
OK this feels super-not-coached I townread you
Thanks for entertaining me lol
sorry could someone give me like an informal explanation of what wifom means. I like looked it up on the mafia wiki glossary and I still didnt understand it
It literally stands for "wine in front of me", the term comes from this clip
Vote Litt eleven
So let’s say that idk, Hal flips town and Tommy is alive in LYLO
Town might scumread him because he should have died by now, why would he still be alive? But Tommy himself has said that he always survives until endgame as town, so meta-wise this is standard.
So should we townread him because he’s alive which is standard for his town game? Well no, because scum know that Tommy has said that that’s his meta, so they would kill him.
That’s WIFOM. The only people who know the answer are scum, and town Tommy if he’s town and isn’t included in scum
Town might scumread him because he should have died by now, why would he still be alive? But Tommy himself has said that he always survives until endgame as town, so meta-wise this is standard.
So should we townread him because he’s alive which is standard for his town game? Well no, because scum know that Tommy has said that that’s his meta, so they would kill him.
That’s WIFOM. The only people who know the answer are scum, and town Tommy if he’s town and isn’t included in scum
Hal hypothetically flipping town is actually irrelevant here I was thinking of how best to illustrate the concept and switched direction
Skimmed the thread (not at a computer nor a place to be reading heavily) but call this a gut read on Litt for now
Isolate Posts is next to Report but is Smogon-wide (most people don’t post much outside of a mafia thread during an ongoing game tho)