"Worst Pokémon Ever"

I would legit prefer if Wurmple just evolved straight up into one of the two early get bugs without the cacoon phase. I know I know, it's gotta show the two stage evolution and all that, but I think if there's no actual inspiration or sth interesting for the Mon, then it shouldn't be created

Tbh I am still genuinely pissed about Incineroar. A fire/dark starter tiger after the great Torracat design and it looks like some wannabe wrestler furry... Nah. Like I think if Torracat stayed on all fours and still looked like a tiger, it could still have some wrestling gimmick in there. Could look great. I just hate how they blundered the cat...

Also, Zacian made me quit VGC. Loved the meta, but when I started leading with scarf Blacephalon and SD Groudon to OHKO Zacian with Heat Wave, I realized that there's just something deeply wrong with this Mon. Even the Primals and Mega Rayquayquay didn't spoil the meta as bad for me as that stupid dog did

Btw I love cats and dogs, I just don't like this specific cat and this specific dog
 
Having a shitty day at work today and I'm spending my lunch break venting about a 'mon I loathe, because I have my priorities figured out. Don't mind me!

Cinderace is such an odd little guy to look at, because to me it feels like it was clearly intended to be the next Charizard or Greninja and they failed spectacularly. Well, let me back up a bit - I think all of the starters since Gen 6 have tried to fill the same mold that Greninja (and, to a lesser extent, Delphox and Chesnaught) did, chasing its success and not finding much success in the process. They generally tend to be assigned some sort of human profession - and in Cinderace's case, it's a soccer player. So if all the starters replicate this generalized design philosophy, why do I take such issue with Cinderace in particular instead of, say, Incineroar?

On a gameplay function, they also wanted it to be a bigger and badder Greninja, too. Not only does it outright take Greninja's (and Kecleon's, lest we forget the poor guy) ability and renames it to suit itself, it has not one, but two signature moves - Pyro Ball as an absurdly powerful and abusable stab move, compared to the middling Snipe Shot and Drum Beating that its counterparts get, and Court Change, a new way to play around entry hazards. They also got rid of what little kept Protean Greninja in check - it has a notably higher Attack stat in exchange for just 3 points of Speed, and has a much wider range of coverage to work with, too. Compare this to the other starters, which generally tend to have much more distinct gameplay functions, even if they're weaker at it. Incineroar is definitely VGC's heel, but I truly can't think of a better way to go about that than being the most annoying pivot ever. Cinderace just hits you really hard and really fast, and I don't think it tells me anything meaningful about its personality or its 'profession' as a soccer player. Even if the focus on these professions seems to be an unpopular choice in the fandom, at least these 'mons generally tend to have gameplay that gives them a distinct flavor to reinforce those design choices. Cinderace is so dull that I'm feeling a little sleepy talking about it, so let's move on.

So that's the gameplay facet, the conclusion of which is subjective, but I think it's hard to deny that it bears a lot of similarities to a crème de la crème 'mon in the past, enough to get it banished to Ubers. But design is a much more subjective thing to discuss, even if the general fandom consensus (from what I've observed!) is that the gen 8 starters, Cinderace included, are kind of lame. Frankly I'm also not nearly articulate to point to specifics other than "I do not like this thing!" so I'll just post the creature.

1666039486594.png


The character arc it goes through with its evolutions is obvious - it starts as having high energy and potential in equal measure as a Scorbunny, undergoes its Rocky-esque training arc, hoodie and all, as a Raboot, and finally goes pro as a Cinderace. It's such an obvious character arc, in fact, that I think it strips the 'mon of personality entirely - it gives every member of the species the same journey, the same emotional growth, and turns it less into a member of a species and more of a character, for lack of better phrasing. There's always been humanoid and human-like Pokemon, and while I don't inherently object to them on principle (I like Mr. Mime but loathe Jynx, for example), I think they become intrusive at a point, and Cinderace crosses that threshold by leaps and bounds. To specifically point to design aspects that make me feel this way... I think the shorts and fur jersey (???) go a little past being cute touches and more, uh, indistinguishable from a fursuit.

I've been making a fair few Greninja comparisons, but where do I see the similarities to Charizard? Well, I don't - and that's the problem. Which might sound stupid, but bear with me - Charizard's popularity is, for the most part, organic. It's always been front-and-center in marketing, sure, and starters always have and always will receive special focus, but people naturally gravitated to Charizard for its cool design, your growth as a trainer alongside it, and for its prominence in the anime as Ash's ever-unreliable partner. Greninja got a huge boost from Smash, of course, but I'm also inclined to believe that its popularity is organic up until the point where someone drew Ash-Greninja and didn't immediately burn it. Cinderace wants to follow in this legacy - it wants the merch, the adoration of fans across the globe, the Smash invite - and in doing so doesn't do anything truly unique. It mimics what came before and puts its own little twist on it - the 'job', the Protean, the gameplay viability - but utterly fails to crave out its own identity. It will forever be in the shadow of other, more successful starters, because it never dared to do anything truly unique. I suppose that, in that sense, it's quite accurate to your average pro athlete!

Obviously I'm extremely biased, but I cannot think of another Pokemon that feels quite as cynical that Cinderace does, in every aspect of its design. I think it embodies the absolute worst of modern Pokemon design on pretty much every level, and I'm truly glad that it failed.
 
Having a shitty day at work today and I'm spending my lunch break venting about a 'mon I loathe, because I have my priorities figured out. Don't mind me!

Cinderace is such an odd little guy to look at, because to me it feels like it was clearly intended to be the next Charizard or Greninja and they failed spectacularly. Well, let me back up a bit - I think all of the starters since Gen 6 have tried to fill the same mold that Greninja (and, to a lesser extent, Delphox and Chesnaught) did, chasing its success and not finding much success in the process. They generally tend to be assigned some sort of human profession - and in Cinderace's case, it's a soccer player. So if all the starters replicate this generalized design philosophy, why do I take such issue with Cinderace in particular instead of, say, Incineroar?

On a gameplay function, they also wanted it to be a bigger and badder Greninja, too. Not only does it outright take Greninja's (and Kecleon's, lest we forget the poor guy) ability and renames it to suit itself, it has not one, but two signature moves - Pyro Ball as an absurdly powerful and abusable stab move, compared to the middling Snipe Shot and Drum Beating that its counterparts get, and Court Change, a new way to play around entry hazards. They also got rid of what little kept Protean Greninja in check - it has a notably higher Attack stat in exchange for just 3 points of Speed, and has a much wider range of coverage to work with, too. Compare this to the other starters, which generally tend to have much more distinct gameplay functions, even if they're weaker at it. Incineroar is definitely VGC's heel, but I truly can't think of a better way to go about that than being the most annoying pivot ever. Cinderace just hits you really hard and really fast, and I don't think it tells me anything meaningful about its personality or its 'profession' as a soccer player. Even if the focus on these professions seems to be an unpopular choice in the fandom, at least these 'mons generally tend to have gameplay that gives them a distinct flavor to reinforce those design choices. Cinderace is so dull that I'm feeling a little sleepy talking about it, so let's move on.

So that's the gameplay facet, the conclusion of which is subjective, but I think it's hard to deny that it bears a lot of similarities to a crème de la crème 'mon in the past, enough to get it banished to Ubers. But design is a much more subjective thing to discuss, even if the general fandom consensus (from what I've observed!) is that the gen 8 starters, Cinderace included, are kind of lame. Frankly I'm also not nearly articulate to point to specifics other than "I do not like this thing!" so I'll just post the creature.

View attachment 459312

The character arc it goes through with its evolutions is obvious - it starts as having high energy and potential in equal measure as a Scorbunny, undergoes its Rocky-esque training arc, hoodie and all, as a Raboot, and finally goes pro as a Cinderace. It's such an obvious character arc, in fact, that I think it strips the 'mon of personality entirely - it gives every member of the species the same journey, the same emotional growth, and turns it less into a member of a species and more of a character, for lack of better phrasing. There's always been humanoid and human-like Pokemon, and while I don't inherently object to them on principle (I like Mr. Mime but loathe Jynx, for example), I think they become intrusive at a point, and Cinderace crosses that threshold by leaps and bounds. To specifically point to design aspects that make me feel this way... I think the shorts and fur jersey (???) go a little past being cute touches and more, uh, indistinguishable from a fursuit.

I've been making a fair few Greninja comparisons, but where do I see the similarities to Charizard? Well, I don't - and that's the problem. Which might sound stupid, but bear with me - Charizard's popularity is, for the most part, organic. It's always been front-and-center in marketing, sure, and starters always have and always will receive special focus, but people naturally gravitated to Charizard for its cool design, your growth as a trainer alongside it, and for its prominence in the anime as Ash's ever-unreliable partner. Greninja got a huge boost from Smash, of course, but I'm also inclined to believe that its popularity is organic up until the point where someone drew Ash-Greninja and didn't immediately burn it. Cinderace wants to follow in this legacy - it wants the merch, the adoration of fans across the globe, the Smash invite - and in doing so doesn't do anything truly unique. It mimics what came before and puts its own little twist on it - the 'job', the Protean, the gameplay viability - but utterly fails to crave out its own identity. It will forever be in the shadow of other, more successful starters, because it never dared to do anything truly unique. I suppose that, in that sense, it's quite accurate to your average pro athlete!

Obviously I'm extremely biased, but I cannot think of another Pokemon that feels quite as cynical that Cinderace does, in every aspect of its design. I think it embodies the absolute worst of modern Pokemon design on pretty much every level, and I'm truly glad that it failed.
Don’t forget that Scorbunny was the Pokémon chosen to be Goh’s first partner in the anime. I don’t have the same antipathy towards Cinderace as you do (still prefer Intelleon and Rillaboom tho), but I can see the blatant shilling from a mile away.
 

Coronis

Impressively round
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Having a shitty day at work today and I'm spending my lunch break venting about a 'mon I loathe, because I have my priorities figured out. Don't mind me!

Cinderace is such an odd little guy to look at, because to me it feels like it was clearly intended to be the next Charizard or Greninja and they failed spectacularly. Well, let me back up a bit - I think all of the starters since Gen 6 have tried to fill the same mold that Greninja (and, to a lesser extent, Delphox and Chesnaught) did, chasing its success and not finding much success in the process. They generally tend to be assigned some sort of human profession - and in Cinderace's case, it's a soccer player. So if all the starters replicate this generalized design philosophy, why do I take such issue with Cinderace in particular instead of, say, Incineroar?

On a gameplay function, they also wanted it to be a bigger and badder Greninja, too. Not only does it outright take Greninja's (and Kecleon's, lest we forget the poor guy) ability and renames it to suit itself, it has not one, but two signature moves - Pyro Ball as an absurdly powerful and abusable stab move, compared to the middling Snipe Shot and Drum Beating that its counterparts get, and Court Change, a new way to play around entry hazards. They also got rid of what little kept Protean Greninja in check - it has a notably higher Attack stat in exchange for just 3 points of Speed, and has a much wider range of coverage to work with, too. Compare this to the other starters, which generally tend to have much more distinct gameplay functions, even if they're weaker at it. Incineroar is definitely VGC's heel, but I truly can't think of a better way to go about that than being the most annoying pivot ever. Cinderace just hits you really hard and really fast, and I don't think it tells me anything meaningful about its personality or its 'profession' as a soccer player. Even if the focus on these professions seems to be an unpopular choice in the fandom, at least these 'mons generally tend to have gameplay that gives them a distinct flavor to reinforce those design choices. Cinderace is so dull that I'm feeling a little sleepy talking about it, so let's move on.

So that's the gameplay facet, the conclusion of which is subjective, but I think it's hard to deny that it bears a lot of similarities to a crème de la crème 'mon in the past, enough to get it banished to Ubers. But design is a much more subjective thing to discuss, even if the general fandom consensus (from what I've observed!) is that the gen 8 starters, Cinderace included, are kind of lame. Frankly I'm also not nearly articulate to point to specifics other than "I do not like this thing!" so I'll just post the creature.

View attachment 459312

The character arc it goes through with its evolutions is obvious - it starts as having high energy and potential in equal measure as a Scorbunny, undergoes its Rocky-esque training arc, hoodie and all, as a Raboot, and finally goes pro as a Cinderace. It's such an obvious character arc, in fact, that I think it strips the 'mon of personality entirely - it gives every member of the species the same journey, the same emotional growth, and turns it less into a member of a species and more of a character, for lack of better phrasing. There's always been humanoid and human-like Pokemon, and while I don't inherently object to them on principle (I like Mr. Mime but loathe Jynx, for example), I think they become intrusive at a point, and Cinderace crosses that threshold by leaps and bounds. To specifically point to design aspects that make me feel this way... I think the shorts and fur jersey (???) go a little past being cute touches and more, uh, indistinguishable from a fursuit.

I've been making a fair few Greninja comparisons, but where do I see the similarities to Charizard? Well, I don't - and that's the problem. Which might sound stupid, but bear with me - Charizard's popularity is, for the most part, organic. It's always been front-and-center in marketing, sure, and starters always have and always will receive special focus, but people naturally gravitated to Charizard for its cool design, your growth as a trainer alongside it, and for its prominence in the anime as Ash's ever-unreliable partner. Greninja got a huge boost from Smash, of course, but I'm also inclined to believe that its popularity is organic up until the point where someone drew Ash-Greninja and didn't immediately burn it. Cinderace wants to follow in this legacy - it wants the merch, the adoration of fans across the globe, the Smash invite - and in doing so doesn't do anything truly unique. It mimics what came before and puts its own little twist on it - the 'job', the Protean, the gameplay viability - but utterly fails to crave out its own identity. It will forever be in the shadow of other, more successful starters, because it never dared to do anything truly unique. I suppose that, in that sense, it's quite accurate to your average pro athlete!

Obviously I'm extremely biased, but I cannot think of another Pokemon that feels quite as cynical that Cinderace does, in every aspect of its design. I think it embodies the absolute worst of modern Pokemon design on pretty much every level, and I'm truly glad that it failed.
How dare you loathe Jynx.
 
How dare you loathe Jynx.
Jynx is odd because I think some parts of the core concept are kinda interesting - taking the concept of gyaru fashion (specifically yamanba), and then mixing it with the yokai that the nickname for it came from, the yama-uba, is kinda neat. There's just two reasons I don't really like it, but they're two pretty big deal-breakers to me:

1. It's uncanny in how it looks to me. The hair, lips, 'dress' - all of it comes together to form something human, yet also not quite that. With other Pokemon that I find to be too humanoid for my tastes, such as Cinderace my beloathed, it's more that I think it looks lame and uninspired. There's some inspiration here, I just don't like it very much.

2. It's uh... well: I'm truly shocked that NoA at the time didn't see fit to censor it. I'm really not at all qualified to speak on Japan's cultural sensitives and nuances at all, much less during the late '90s, but I can say with some degree of confidence that Jynx's controversy in the west was inevitable and I find it bizarre that no adjustments were made accordingly. This is the same company that was constantly censoring games such as Castlevania and Legend of Zelda to remove even the vaguest hints of blood and religion, yet something that might be construed for blackface goes untouched? It just strikes me as a very odd choice to not do something about that.

To be clear, I don't think Jynx was intended to be blackface. While there's a separate (and wholly unfitting for this forum) discussion to be had about gyaru, blackface and Japan's history with race relations, looking at gyaru itself I truly think that Jynx was intended to blend a modern cultural phenomenon in Japan with its yokai origins as a Pokemon species, and that they simply weren't considering international audiences at the time - which is understandable, given the game's shoestring development. Again, I'm in no position to make moral judgments about people I've never met, but Jynx's conception doesn't inherently strike me as malicious in nature. Changing her face's color to purple from GSC onwards was absolutely the right call, but I don't think it's enough of an improvement to her design to justify its existence, you know? And come on guys, did you really have to bring in the Zwarte Piet comparison with the Christmas episode?

All of that to say, I think Jynx's past has made her a bit of an unfortunate relic, and even without that context I don't think I'd care for her design all that much regardless. That's not to say I think the design is flawed to its core - I think focusing more on the yokai aspects of Yama-uba, maybe through an evolution that looks more haggard, could accomplish this, but uh... somehow I don't think it's getting an evolution any time soon, you know?
 
It isn't as baffling as you think when you remember that, being the debut game, RBY was going off a lot of standard JRPG design conventions of the time. And what is one of those conventions? Why, replacing your old, outdated gear for better ones, of course! Make no mistake, Dodrio being Fearow but strictly better isn't a careless accident, it's their deliberate translation of this principle to Pokemon's environment. It manifests in other ways with other Pokemon, too. Remember Blue's Raticate? Its shifting out was meant to convey to the player "Psst, now's the time to replace some of those early-routers with stronger mons!". Of course, as time went on and more games were made this old-fashioned idea quickly could no longer jive with the "Every Pokemon is your unique and special buddy" principle all the marketing was enforcing, so cases like these would be phased out.


What makes this even more hilariously sad is that Fearow is the only one of those 3 that's actually IN the Alola dex! God damn man, they really hate this bird's guts, don't they?
Two months late to the Fearow conversation but an interesting thing about it is that Spearow is a weird case of an early-game mon: for the first two gens it's found in a side route that many people might miss out alongside mons that are definitely not intended to be early-game only, such as the Nidos in RBY and Geodude in GSC. However the game keeps telling you to replace it, between the Farfetch'd trade and Doduo being found in the same route as the Fly HM (and iirc in Yellow Gary actually drops Fearow just as his RB counterpart drops Raticate).
Still it's pretty good in-game being arguably the best partner for both Squirtle and Totodile and having enough power most ot the time with Drill Peck. The only fights where I felt it wasn't strong enough were against Lorelei's Jynx (which Double-Edge OHKOed) and Blue's Alakazam (due to the level difference, not sure Dodrio would've been much better). And it's one of the best mons in GSC, like was mentioned.

Speaking of outclassed mons:



Now I want to preface this by saying I don't think any gen I mon, with the possible exception of Seaking (and even that prolly has more redeeming qualities than Sunflora or Delcatty, which look like they were supposed to evolve but the idea was ultimately scrapped), is forgettable enough to be a candidate for worst Pokémon ever. Arbok is certainly memorable, considering it was Jessie's original partner in the anime and strong bosses such as Agatha and Rocket Executive Ariana used it.
So what's my problem with it? For starters, it's originally only found in Red. It doesn't learn many things by level up outside of Wrap and Glare but it does get a bunch of notable TMs, such as Dig, Body Slam, Rock Slide, and Earthquake (the latter being notable because so few non-Ground-types learned it at the time, with stuff like Dragonite, Gyarados or Pinsir lacking it). It even has a comparable Attack stat to Charizard so it's definitely not a bad user of the moves. So what's the deal? Well...

1.png
2.png

That's right, Nidoking is better in every single stat and also learns those moves outside of Dig, plus it's amazing special coverage. That alone wouldn't be a problem, but they also made Ekans available after Mt. Moon, meaning it's very feasible Red players could already have a Nidoking by the time they can catch it! So much for "Replace your early-game mons with better ones", huh? Again, Arbok is definitely not bad if you want to use it and even in the Elite Four it can do stuff such as OHKO Jynx or beat most of Agatha's mons (and also exploiting the glitch where the AI will use status moves thinking they're super effective against Lance's Dragons). But it definitely feels like this mon was designed to be outclassed.
In Gen II it does appear before the Nidos and also learns Sludge Bomb, giving it the honor of being one of the few mons to learn both it and EQ at the time (alongside Quagsire, Dugtrio, Mew and I guess Smeargle). Even then, it's only found at level 4 on the same route Qwilfish is available and the oft-forgotten pufferfish is also better in every stat sans SpAtk and SpDef. The mere suggestion of "Why not use Qwilfish instead?" should be a warning sign. I still used it in my most recent run and had fun, but that's mostly because I love Sludge Bomb since as a kid I never knew you could get the TM so early.

In following generations it got Intimidate, Gunk Shot + Coil, and even a +10 Attack buff (EDIT: which the Nidos also got!) that Fearow lacked but it still didn't seem enough before it ended up being Dexited and having to wait for its comeback while its counterpart and the other pure Poison-types got regional variants. It really feels like GF gave up on trying to save it.

Competitively it's never made much of an impact, being mostly NU or PU (it might be a nice CB Sludge Bomb user in ADV NU? I see it's B in the viability ranks). Perhaps its biggest point was at the height of Wrap spam in RBY OU since I guess its Glare + EQ combo could help against Gengar, but that's pretty much nonexistant at the time.

And finally, it's actually been rather uncommon ingame. Outside of being Red-only in gen I and being found in the wild in Silver and Crystal (Gold players can buy it at the Game Corner) and ditto for the remakes, it's only appeared in Route 14 as a Horde encounter in XY and Route 2 in USUM, so while not the rarest of things it's still a seldom sight for a mon that used to be important in the anime.

(Apologies for the long post! Again, I actually like it and don't claim it's the worst Pokémon, I'm just sad it's never got its big break. Also I was rereading the story on Jessie's Arbok and now I'm teary-eyed)
 
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Spidops has the lowest base stat total seen for a fully evolved mon in generations. The only weaker fully evolved mons are Shedinja, Kricketune, Dustox, Ledian, Butterfree, Beedrill and Beautifly.

You'll note there's no mon after Gen 4. That's because I thought Gamefreak was smart enough with their design not to completely doom a mon to oblivion the instant it was released. What the hell? It's a throwback in the worst way.
 
Spidops has the lowest base stat total seen for a fully evolved mon in generations. The only weaker fully evolved mons are Shedinja, Kricketune, Dustox, Ledian, Butterfree, Beedrill and Beautifly.

You'll note there's no mon after Gen 4. That's because I thought Gamefreak was smart enough with their design not to completely doom a mon to oblivion the instant it was released. What the hell? It's a throwback in the worst way.
The only newer fully evolved pokemon in its ballpark is Shiinotic (Spidops has 404, Shiinotic has 405), but at least Shiinotic has a more useful typing and support.

poor spidops is a defensive pure bug type. At least it has an interesting movepool...?
 
Usually when I pick a worst Pokemon, it ends up being something awful in terms of ingame use or competitive... but now I think this makes a much better choice for me:
Zacian (Heldenhafter Krieger)
Zacian (König des Schwertes)

Zamazenta is one of the blandest and most uncreative designs for a cover legendary I have seen. A dog with a sword... and his brother looks almost exactly like him without his shield. So when they don't hold their Sword and Shield, I don't know who is who unless I put the forms side by side and compare the colors.
Speaking of colors, they don't feel opposites to each others besides what object they are holding based on design. When I think of Legendary Pokemon opposing each other in theming and such I think of:
- Ho-Oh and Lugia (Sky vs Sea, Fire vs "Water", Colorful vs Colorless, Feathered Birb vs Naked Birb)
- Kyogre and Groudon (Leviathan vs Behemoth, Sea vs Land, Rainy weather vs Sunny weather, Water vs "Fire", Alpha vs OMEGA)
- Dialga and Palkia (blue vs pink, boys vs girls, time vs space, 4 legs vs 2 legs, Diamond vs Pearl)
- Zekrom and Reshiram (used to be 1 being, black vs white, ideal vs truth, darkness vs light, e-fuel vs diesel)
- Xerneas and Yveltal (live vs death, female vs male, blue vs red, X vs Y)
etc

The most you can get from the dogs is Sword vs Shield meaning Attack vs Defense. Doesn't sound that cool. Both also look less legendary to me than the legendary beasts. They are just dogs.
But the thing with ZAmazenta is that it is on a completely different level to his brother with an obvious broken ability. Both have the BST of Rayquaza in regular form but after getting their weapons they gain Arceus BST for the cost of an item slot.
BUT both also get an additional typing with STAB on top.
Why is the Sword Doggo the worst? Because it has a build in CHOICE BAND without the downsides. It gets in and a +1 attack... wtf. With this insane speed and attack stat they thought that is a good idea? Weren't Pokemon removed because of balance or some bullshit?
Even if they are meant not to be used in competitive (which they were), there was no competition except Eternatuz in the realm of broken Pokemon. Why did this dog get such an insane ability?
I want to remind you, Pokemon were removed from the game so this thing can be in it. Let that sink in. It is like removing Tyranatar from Gen 3 and replacing it with Luvdisc with 2 pallet swaps of it (which have their own shiny variation) because they didn't have enough space to add more sprites.

Yes, I don't like the other dog either. The one who has a shield on his face. Not looking up the name.
 
Spidops has the lowest base stat total seen for a fully evolved mon in generations. The only weaker fully evolved mons are Shedinja, Kricketune, Dustox, Ledian, Butterfree, Beedrill and Beautifly.

You'll note there's no mon after Gen 4. That's because I thought Gamefreak was smart enough with their design not to completely doom a mon to oblivion the instant it was released. What the hell? It's a throwback in the worst way.
I actually think Spidops is worse than Ledian.

I'm not saying Ledian is good because it isn't, but Ledian at least has a decent Speed it can use to get off Reflect / Light Screen before Greg the
Grim Reaper arrives. Spidops's marginally competent defenses are ruined by terrible base 60 HP. Spidops can't use the entry hazards it gets because lol base 35 Speed, which also makes Silk Trap (Protect clone with a Speed drop for contact users) pretty useless. Even in-game, Spidops's movepool is the stuff of Gen IV memes - Bug Bite right before evolution at level 14, then nothing until level 49 for freaking Skitter Smack. Yeehaw. It's not like Ledian is winning movepool awards either but it at least gets the screens relatively early. It can do something.

Spidops also makes no sense to create in the same gen we got Lokix, a Tinted Lens user so good it is seeing more play than GARCHOMP
right now. Ever since Gen V, Game Freak has made a conscious effort to make the Bug types not laughably bad. Leavanny, Crustle, Escavalier, Volcarona, Durant, Accelgor, Vivillon, Vikavolt, Orbeetle - even the lesser ones in that list at least make an effort to stand out.

It's a shame too because Spidops's design isn't that bad, and the shiny is nice. But seriously, the only good things about Spidops are the parody analyses people have already made for it in competitive:

Spidops - Dreadfury analysis (full of backhanded compliments)

Spidops - Spidops Expert analysis (probably one of the funniest ironic posts you will ever read)

But yes, Spidops is awful.
 
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Codraroll

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On the positive side, Game Freak seems to be opening the door for cross-generation evolutions again, and with its weak stats, Spidops is a good candidate to receive an upgrade in some future generation.

Then again, the same can be said about Ledian, which hasn't got diddly squat for more than twenty years.
 
On the positive side, Game Freak seems to be opening the door for cross-generation evolutions again, and with its weak stats, Spidops is a good candidate to receive an upgrade in some future generation.

Then again, the same can be said about Ledian, which hasn't got diddly squat for more than twenty years.
Maybe he will get a bone thrown at it at some point. I mean look at Delibird. It became a terminator and got revenge on anyone who made fun of him. Now it's banned from SV competitive.

I wish I had good editing skills or good at art to make some hilarious memes about that. But again that is no different than being a different "form" of an existing Pokemon.
 
Maybe he will get a bone thrown at it at some point. I mean look at Delibird. It became a terminator and got revenge on anyone who made fun of him. Now it's banned from SV competitive.

I wish I had good editing skills or good at art to make some hilarious memes about that. But again that is no different than being a different "form" of an existing Pokemon.
That's not technically Delibird from a Game mechanic standpoint though, Iron Bundle is a completely separate Pokemon from Delibird in the Pokedex.
 
On the positive side, Game Freak seems to be opening the door for cross-generation evolutions again, and with its weak stats, Spidops is a good candidate to receive an upgrade in some future generation.

Then again, the same can be said about Ledian, which hasn't got diddly squat for more than twenty years.
Annoyingly Ledian would have been perfect for a Mega Evolution in the same sort of vein as Beedrill, wherein stats are deducted to effectively give it more than +100 BP. Something like:

55
35 (+95)
50 (+25)
55 (-45)
110
85 (+20)

People always suggest an ability like Iron Fist to complement the array of punching moves Ledian gets, which would be good but I'd go one further and give it a unique and more overpowered ability that perhaps doubles the secondary effects of punching moves, or makes them hit multiple times if the Mega got more arms than the four it already has.

The opportunity for that's gone now, so a regional form which won't actually fix the original seems more likely. But maybe it'll get a straightforward third evolution. I can't believe there hasn't been a will to do this yet though, it's such a fun design and the possibilities with a ladybird design are boundless.
 

Pikachu315111

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That's not technically Delibird from a Game mechanic standpoint though, Iron Bundle is a completely separate Pokemon from Delibird in the Pokedex.
Going to make a post about it somewhere once I'm done with my (main) playthrough (which will be soon, I'm on the last story now), but Iron Bundle might as well be a future version of Delibird as far as lore is concern. Because, spoiler/teaser/tl;dr of my opinion on Paradox Pokemon: They feel poorly implemented with GF having NO IDEA what they wanted to do with the concept; am not a fan as it's a MASSIVE missed opportunity.

Annoyingly Ledian would have been perfect for a Mega Evolution in the same sort of vein as Beedrill, wherein stats are deducted to effectively give it more than +100 BP. Something like:

(...)

The opportunity for that's gone now, so a regional form which won't actually fix the original seems more likely. But maybe it'll get a straightforward third evolution. I can't believe there hasn't been a will to do this yet though, it's such a fun design and the possibilities with a ladybird design are boundless.
I still say they should just "bite the bullet" and make the Ledyba family a Physical version of the Cutiefly family:

Ledyba: 40/55/40/45/40/84//304
(Also make it evolve at Level 25)
Ledian: 60/95/70/55/60/124//464
(Another suggestion but probably wouldn't change much: make it a Bug/Fighting)

"But that'll completely change how Ledyba played in the past..."

No one cares. No. One. Cares. Ledyba family sucks. No one is going to be sad/angry you changed it from a Special punchingbag to usable in casual playthroughs.

And it would be a good exercise for GF too. They would be admitting they made a mistake, and then having done something to fix that mistake. GF seem allergic to admitting when they made mistakes, which they do a lot. That means, instead of doing something to address the mistake, they stomp their foot down and refuse to change anything.
 
Going to make a post about it somewhere once I'm done with my (main) playthrough (which will be soon, I'm on the last story now), but Iron Bundle might as well be a future version of Delibird as far as lore is concern. Because, spoiler/teaser/tl;dr of my opinion on Paradox Pokemon: They feel poorly implemented with GF having NO IDEA what they wanted to do with the concept; am not a fan as it's a MASSIVE missed opportunity.
Interestingly, Bundle specifically is mentioned as potentially playing into the "advanced precursor civilization" trope unlike the other Violet paradox mons. Having just checked the Scarlet ones, the closest I could find to a counterpart to this (appearing past-based but reportedly from the future) is that Slither Wing is the only one that refers to fossil-revival tech.
 

Codraroll

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(Another suggestion but probably wouldn't change much: make it a Bug/Fighting)
Ledian is partially based on Pulseman, a vaguely bug-resembling superhero by Game Freak. An evolution could be a good idea to lean more into that angle, giving it more of a superhero outfit, much better stats, and a new and unique typing: Bug/Normal. I think an insect-like superhero is among the few feasible design approaches that suit that particular typing.

Aaaanyway, trying to segue back into bad Pokémon, the topic of the thread after all. I think it's kind of interesting that Ledian is such a frequent contender of lists like these, while Ariados generally gets a pass despite having the same base stat total (until Gen VII, where Ariados gained +10 Special Defense). Don't get me wrong, Ariados still isn't good, but it's not the worst either. It's fascinating how much improvement can be gained from just a few small changes:
  • A more balanced stat distribution. Ariados doesn't have any great stats, but it doesn't make the mistake of dumping all the points into a defensive stat and Speed. Ledian is actually passably fast at base 85, and it has the same Sp. Def. as Snorlax and Slowking, but then there's no points left to put in the other stats. Sp. Def. alone doesn't make great bulk either, since its HP and Defense are the same as Eevee or Frillish, which aren't generally famed for their durability. Ledian thus gets little in return for its over-investment into one stat.
  • Actual offensive presence. Ariados is blessed with 90 Attack, but can also put its 60 Sp. Atk. to some use in a pinch (More on that in a bit). Those 90 Attack will be its main way of dealing damage, however, and it also has the means to use them. Ledian's strongest offensive stat is its paltry base 55 Sp. Atk. Its base Attack is 35, too weak to consider for any purpose. When Ariados moves, it can at least scrape the opponent. Ledian can barely make a dent in tin foil.
  • A movepool fit for purpose. Ariados is weak, awfully weak, but it has some tools to compensate. Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch to overcome its terrible Speed, dual 80 BP STAB moves, and a means to boost its stats using Swords Dance, Fell Stinger, or Agility. In-game, this might be enough to get you by. You can even run a Special set if you're so inclined. Strangely, it learns Psychic by level-up and gets a surprisingly diverse TM learnset including 90 BP moves off both its STABs. If you're doing some kind of weird challenge run where you can only use the Pokémon's weakest offensive stat, many Pokémon would perform worse than Ariados. And one of them is Ledian, whose offensive presence begins and ends with Air Slash and Bug Buzz, maybe U-Turn if you've got stronger teammates you'd rather want to take the fight (and chances are, you do). But as mentioned above, Ledian isn't an offensive Pokémon. It's not much better in defense, though. It can't inflict permanent status on the opponent or debuff their stats (except with Struggle Bug or, technically, Flash), so it has to do support, but it gives the opponent free time to do whatever it wants while Ledian sets up. Oh, and it can't heal itself except with Rest. Ledian's support options are generally limited to Baton Pass shenanigans, or setting up screens. It's clearly not the best 'mon for the role, since the process can be cleanly interrupted by a single physical strike, and chances are the opponent will benefit more from the setup turns than Ledian's team does. Besides ...
  • Ariados works somewhat in-game. The goal of the game is to reduce the HP of enemies to zero. You have to do this many, many times, so the most efficient approach is generally to wallop them with your strongest moves. Setting up boosts to win the battle takes an awful lot of time, during which your Pokémon will take all sorts of damage or status conditions. A defensive playstyle, while technically possible, just takes too long and requires too much healing after battles. Going straight for damaging moves pays off much easier. And here, the difference between Ariados and Ledian stands out the clearest. Your freshly caught Spinarak will be quite awful, having to rely on 20 BP moves off its weaker offensive stat until level 19, but at least it's not Ledyba which relies on Swift as its only tool until level 22 (Struggle Bug, 50 BP). Upon evolution, Ariados can use moves like Bug Bite and eventually Sucker Punch off the aforementioned 90 Attack. Ledian, at this point, will have to rely on Swift and Struggle Bug until level 38. It gets the screens and Safeguard and Baton Pass, but what for? In-game, they're just a waste. In competitive ... It's Ledian. You won't use it in competitive.
Two Pokémon, both crawling at the bottom of the barrel stat-wise, yet one works somewhat while the other really doesn't. I briefly considered comparing to Beautifly too, with its impressive Sp. Atk., passable Speed and imposing array of STAB moves, but Ariados and Ledian make the point well enough on their own. It highlights just how terrible Ledian is, when a Pokémon equally screwed in the stat department gets to work so much better in practice.
 
The only newer fully evolved pokemon in its ballpark is Shiinotic (Spidops has 404, Shiinotic has 405), but at least Shiinotic has a more useful typing and support.

poor spidops is a defensive pure bug type. At least it has an interesting movepool...?
I guess it's worth mentioning that it is one of three Pokemon in gen 9 right now to get Sticky Web and the only one to also learn Spikes / Toxic Spikes. It's bulkier than Kricketune and if Stakeout activates Spidops Leech Life has comparable damage output to Kingambit's Iron Head. Masquerain has better bulk and a good movepool but as far as the specific Spikes setting Sticky Webber Spidops has no rivals.

Is it good? No. But it isn't obsolete.
 

CTNC

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This is going to be a very unpopular opinion and I'm sure the reason I don't like it is what makes some people like it more, but I really don't like Dachsbun. It's cute and all, but its cry being realistic barking is not only odd for Pokemon but disturbing to me because I'm afraid of dogs. It's easy to not be afraid of dog Pokemon because they're not realistic enough to be afraid of, but hearing the *bark bark growl bark* makes Dachsbun way to real.
 

Codraroll

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This is going to be a very unpopular opinion and I'm sure the reason I don't like it is what makes some people like it more, but I really don't like Dachsbun. It's cute and all, but its cry being realistic barking is not only odd for Pokemon but disturbing to me because I'm afraid of dogs. It's easy to not be afraid of dog Pokemon because they're not realistic enough to be afraid of, but hearing the *bark bark growl bark* makes Dachsbun way to real.
Being an unrepentant dog hater myself, I was thinking of bringing up a Pokémon like this myself, but Dachsbun is not the worst one to me.

It's the Maschiff/Mabosstiff family.

Why oh why did anyone at Game Freak see the need to introduce three new two-stage dog families in the same generation? There's Fidough/Dachsbun, Greavard/Houndstone, and Maschiff/Mabosstiff, which all feature roughly the same base design and work roughly the same mechanically. They're single-typed Pokémon that evolve by level at 26/30/30 and have a BST of 477/488/505.

With three sets of dogs in the game, at least they should be distinct somehow. Two of them are. Fidough's bread theme is wonderfully unique, and Greavard takes the "the only good dog is a dead dog" thing to a whole new level. But Maschiff is just ... awfully generic. It's a quite basic mastiff design, its typing is quite bland (pure Dark), and its movepool is nothing to write home about. Sure, it has a unique ability, but it's very situational. Mabosstiff is essentially a physical Houndoom with no flavour. With two other dog families in the game, why add a third one if it's this generic?

My theory is that they needed a dog for the Arven plotline. But Dachsbun wouldn't have the same emotional impact ("Oh no, my pastry dog is hurt!"), and Houndstone is already dead. The writers wanted a Pokémon players could sympathize with, hence they made a dog that looks a lot like a real-life dog for that story, rather than some goofy design.

Also, Gen IX is slightly lacking in Dark-types. Okay, there are ten others beside the Maschiff family, but Maschiff is the only one that can evolve. So it's not entirely without a purpose.
 

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