Wow dude why did you put the effort into making one of these...

[maddog]

So this would be my 3rd RMT here, and this one I actually need rated to help me wrtie my article. And before you bitch about BP teams, you have to realize how hard they are to play, espically in Platinum with Trick running around everywhere. Trick is one of the main reasons I had to revaluate Baton Pass this generation, because Trick is such a good way to stop my lead. And this team is hard as hell to play; its no longer ADV anymore. Team design is everything, which is what I need opinions on.

Lopunny (M) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Klutz
EVs: 252 HP/36 Def/216 Spd/6 SDef
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)

- Agility
- Baton Pass
- Magic Coat
- Switcheroo
---
Lopunny is an extremely good lead in this metagame. Because of Klutz, Lopunny doesn't care about items being Tricked on him. In fact, Lopunny can use Switcheroo to give threats like Tyranitar or Salamence a Flame Orb, which will slowly kill them and severly reduce the damage that they can do, even after several Dragon Dances. Magic Coat is one of the best options on a Baton Passer. With Magic Coat, Lopunny can deal with status users and Taunt users by hitting them with their own condition. Ultimately though, the goal is to get off an Agility and Baton Pass out of there.

Hypno (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 HP/112 Spd/146 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Psychic
---
Hypno is used as a Special wall in UU, and on this team he tanks Special hits with Calm Mind and Substitute. Hypno is my answer to Zapdos, Porygon-Z and Suicune; Calm Minding until I can set up a Substitute they cannot break. I can then Baton Pass out for another day. Psychic is used in the fourth slot as a STAB move that can break Substitutes on my opponents.
Some may want to use Mr. Mime in this spot as an addition protection to Roar users. Mr. Mime takes Special hits significantly worse though, which is why Hypno has this spot on my team.

Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP/130 Def/128 Spd
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Acid Armor
- Baton Pass
- Wish
- Substitute
---
Vaporeon serves several important functions for this team. Having a Wishpasser is extremely important on a team that cannot recover on their own, and Vaporeon is one of the only Pokemon that can do this well in OU, aside from Togekiss. Vaporeon also provides Defense Boosts to my team and it is my solution to Scizor and other strong physical sweepers. Additionally, after an Acid Armor, Machamp will struggle to break Vaporeon's Substitutes, effectively dealing with an otherwise extremely threatening Pokemon to my entire chain. If you use another Pokemon as a Defense Passer, feel free to use Surf or Ice Beam off of Vaporeon's great base 110 Special Attack.

Smeargle (M) @ Shed Shell
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 92 HP / 120 Def / 40 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Baton Pass
- Ingrain
- Spore
- Substitute
---
Stops phazing, and puts threats to sleep when I need it to. Nice and easy.

Gliscor (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 HP/98 Def/160 SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Baton Pass
---
Gliscor rounds off the team by passing Swords Dances to Lucario. Gliscor carries Taunt to stop phazers that like to switch into him, like Skarmory. Sub is the least necessary on Gliscor, but unlike Vaporeon and Hypno, Gliscor really needs to get in three boosts, and Substitute is invauble in this process. I recently added Sand Veil in order to abuse Substitute more, and to try and get a gab at Tyranitar.

Lucario (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 34 HP/252 Atk/224 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Crunch
- Bullet Punch
- Ice Punch
- Brick Break
---
And here comes the boom. Lucario is the only thing that can KO everything with +6 in just one attacking stat... incredible. Ice Punch takes care of Hippo, Brick Break takes care of screens so they don't get in my way, and hits everything, Crunch to round it off. Bullet Punch is to hate Gengar, Weavile and anything else that tries to outspeed me. As a note, if I fail for some reason to get +6 attack and only get +4, I still win anyways, as Hippo is KOed by Ice Punch still.


So there it is. BP: verison 18 (it took awhile). Please rate and suggest better EV spreads, different moves, and more importantly different Pokemon that would work in order to handle the threats of today. Thanks, maddog :naughty:

Old team members

(This is for my reference only, you don't have to pay attention to it if you don't want):

Ninjask replaced by Lopunny, Hypno replaced Gorebyss, and Vaporeon replaced Scizor.

Ninjask (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP/60 Atk/182 Def/16 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Baton Pass
- Substitute
- Protect
- X-Scissor
-----

Old lead. The first thing I wanted in my team was a lead that was virtually immune to Trick. And in the BP world, there are only two pokes that can accomplish this: Ninjask and Lopunny. Lopunny isn't actually a joke: Magic Coat stops Taunt and Status, Switcherooing Flame Orb stops DD leads I have so much trouble with, and it has good defensive stats (better than Starmie). But for this team, its the super bug, modified for my puporses. The EV spread helps me against those silly pritory attacks, and only takes around 75% from a Weavile's Ice Shard. Protect is actually key on this set: it makes sure I'm faster than all Trick users, so I can put up a Sub to stop Trick. And while Ninjask is much more vunerable to Taunt than Lopunny, at least it has X-Scizzor, which takes care of Azelf. Using Ninjask means I can reduce the speed EVs on the rest of my team, since I will have more than an Agility's worth.

Gorebyss (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 150 HP/108 Spd/252 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Amnesia
- Baton Pass
- Substitute
- Surf
---
What. Is. This.

Gorebyss is something I added onto my team after I tried my chain in Ubers. Amnesia passing (which is what my Mew does) is so nice for stopping those Special threats. Gorebyss is the best at doing that outside of Ubers. Its a perfect Heatran counter, and much like I did against Garchomp in D/P, it helps the rest of my team counter those Special threats that hit in such diverse ways. Gorebyss is what I pass to against Aerodatcyl leads, and it the Sub that I pass it doesn't break on the switch, your in for a world of (not) hurt.

Scizor (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP/130 Def/128 Spd
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Iron Defense
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Bullet Punch
---
Same old Scizor, different puporse. Of course, Scizor is the best at defense passing (tied with Vaporeon). But Scizor is unique, because... it is my Scizor counter. After Amnesia comes into play, I can bring it in on Boltbeamers and make them switch. Bullet Punch is great to have some pritiory and because not having Bullet Punch on Scizor is illegal in my state.

 

[Kid Icarus]

All that thought put in to make Ninjask lead proof, and yet...
TrickScarfing Alakazam outruns it, so maybe just a tad more speed EVs. Your Ninjask comes out as 360 speed, while Timid Zam blows past with 372. Although they're not quite as common as Gengar, still something to think about. Besides, I use Zam as my lead xD

After that, pretty nice team. It's all pretty stable looking. Good job

 

[maddog]

That's the magic behind Protect. I (almost) always Protect first turn, espically something that can Trick such as Alakazam. After the turn, Speed Boost activates and Ninjask blows way past with 540 Speed, which is good enough to beat everything.

 

[Kid Icarus]

That's the magic behind Protect. I (almost) always Protect first turn, espically something that can Trick such as Alakazam. After the turn, Speed Boost activates and Ninjask blows way past with 540 Speed, which is good enough to beat everything.

Remember, Alakazam still has that scarf. So after turn one, both Zam and Ninjask will have +1 Speed. So Zam still outruns it :)

 

[maddog]

but who takes the tricked item?

Substitute prevents Trick.

Remember, Alakazam still has that scarf. So after turn one, both Zam and Ninjask will have +1 Speed. So Zam still outruns it :)

Ah, ok, I thought it was weird that you had Scarf Zam is only 372 Speed lol. It might be worth it, but at the same time most people will believe I'm faster after a Protect, so they might switch out as opposed to trying to Trick again. It is defintely something to consider though; I'll have to put Ninjask's EV spread under more scurnity and see if I can be more precise on my numbers.

 

[NerfThePokeBattler]

Bullet Punch is great to have some pritiory and because not having Bullet Punch on Scizor is illegal in my state.

I don't quite get that, what do you mean by that? Other than that question, just like Gen Empoleon stated I will too, it's a solid team. These teams are created out of time and so many thoughts running through your mind. I love making teams such as these that can still manage through a whole new metagame and still have a fighting chance. For me, I think of Trick Room ideas. I use to love BP chain teams, but after D/P/P came out, most of my BP chain teams failed. Also, does Sub block out Taunt? Kind of forgetting that. As well as you said in the end, Lucario with +6 Atk is a beast that can knock out anything within it's way. That is just pure awesomeness. Lol I give it 'til tonight when people test this team out on Shoddy.

-Nerf.

 

[Muntz]

^^^ Sub doesn't block Taunt

 

[RaikouLover]

I can see this being dismantled quite easily, as your chain is way too long, only one pokemon has taunt to block phazers, and your entire team is dependent on Ninjask's giving them speed boosts (most people just switch to Scizor / Mamoswine to kill it before it passes, or just switch to their phazer to piss you off). Sure you can ingrain with Smeargle, but without a speed boost smeargle is just dead in the water.

 

[maddog]

Neft, I decided to use Bullet Punch on Scizor to beat some threats to BP, such as Taunt users. Other than, it is a solid STAB attack that can deal with stuff like Weavile, Abomasnow and other things that often I would rather just kill than have them stay alive and possibly ruin me if Ninjask needs to come back in.

I can see this being dismantled quite easily, as your chain is way too long, only one pokemon has taunt to block phazers, and your entire team is dependent on Ninjask's giving them speed boosts (most people just switch to Scizor / Mamoswine to kill it before it passes, or just switch to their phazer to piss you off). Sure you can ingrain with Smeargle, but without a speed boost smeargle is just dead in the water.

Of course my chain is 'way too long'. It's an entire chain that can support itself and when it is successful, I win no questions asked. Its vulability is just me making play mistakes, or flaws in team design. As for blocking phazers (I'll use Skarmory as an example), I do have a 1/3 chance to stop them. Taunt is one, and using Spore with Smeargle is another. I don't keep Smeargle in longer than necessary; I don't set up Ingrain unless I'm sure I can get out alive. The whole idea of my team is Ninjask giving Speed Boosts, so I don't see the problem. But what exactly are you suggesting? Your just pointing out problems (that I already have the ability to fix on my own team). Do you have any ideas?

 

[Deathproof]

The main problem is :

Turn 1 : Deathproof sends out his Skarmory
Turn 2 : Maddog's Ninjask uses Baton Pass, he switches to Smeargle.
Turn 2 : Deathproof's Skarmory uses Whirwind (Most of the times this is the part where you are pretty sure to say GAME OVER!)

Back in the old days I would Bp to something else then Smeargle in the hope I got Whirlwinded to him so i could spore,Ingrain and Bp to ninjask again. But now that we have Gliscor this problem is out of the way

This is the reason why a Rock Polish,Taunt,Roost,Stealth Rock Gliscor lead is better and Ninjask should be taken out.

Also put Brick break on Scizor because this stops Magnezone for ruinning the game

I like Protect/Surf/Substitute,Wish,Iron Defence,Baton Pass Vaporeon better over Gorebyss. This also leads to Scizor getting Sword Dance over Iron Defence.

Also Mr.Mime gives you better defence against moves like Roar and Perish Song.(Since they wont have any affect on him)

Ofcourse its nice to build it in your own style but in my opinion this is the strongest bp setup if you are going for results.

 

[maddog]

Turn 1 : Deathproof sends out his Skarmory
Turn 2 : Maddog's Ninjask uses Baton Pass, he switches to Smeargle.
Turn 2 : Deathproof's Skarmory uses Whirwind (Most of the times this is the part where you are pretty sure to say GAME OVER!)

Yes, I'm aware of that scenerio, and it does happen sometimes. If Skarm WWs, then if Smeargle or Gliscor come out, I can stop Skarm from doing that again, and pass to Smeargle as soon as he safely can come in. Also, I know that Scizor in perticular is invites Skarmory to come in, so alot of the times I'll scout for Skarmory by BPing to Smeargle instead of setting up Substitute or Iron Defense.

However, I think you underestimate the rezilance of BP teams. I can come off a WW/ Roar/ Taunt pretty well and set up again. I have won many games 2-0, which sounds extemely weird to be able to do, but it happens.

This is the reason why a Rock Polish,Taunt,Roost,Stealth Rock Gliscor lead is better and Ninjask should be taken out.

With Gliscor, I have the same problem I was having with other leads: Trick just destorys my entire team. Tricking my Agility Passer is pretty much good game, because without speed passing my team is really dead in the water. On my old team I use Zapdos as a lead, and Zapdos shares the same problem that Gliscor has. I try and choose which battles I can win with this team. I can beat an early game Taunt or phaze, but I lose to an early game Trick. No lead is perfect (except for Lopunny) and I knowingly chose one weakness over the other.

Also put Brick break on Scizor because this stops Magnezone for ruinning the game

I can Baton Pass out of Magnet Pull, so I don't need to kill Magnezone, I just need to wall it. Which ironically, is what Scizor does with HP Ice varients, and Gliscor takes out the others.

I like Protect/Surf/Substitute,Wish,Iron Defence,Baton Pass Vaporeon better over Gorebyss. This also leads to Scizor getting Sword Dance over Iron Defence.

I did use Vaporeon on my old team, but I replaced him with my new team. Without Gorebyss, I feel that I am pretty weak to some special attackers that can hit with so many types they would break my Baton Pass chain by themselves. Gorebyss is my 'experiement' to try and cover special attackers with better sucess, and so far it is working out pretty well. Just like Vaporeon, it hits really hard with a high base Speical attack Surf, which can deal massive damage to phazers and is overall a great STAB move.

Also Mr.Mime gives you better defence against moves like Roar and Perish Song.(Since they wont have any affect on him)

Now, if I were to replace Gorebyss with anything, it would probably be Mr. Mime or Hypno. Right now, I am leaning more towards trying out Hypno. I have been quoted as saying "hey use Mr. Mime on every BP team" which is what I did... until I replaced Mr. Mime with Celebi. I felt that Mr. Mime was really too weak to set up Calm Minds, and couldn't make a moveslot for either Substitute or Encore (I wanted both) because of a Taunt weakness. I found Celebi as being more sturdy, and I wouldn't lose as many battles to just being simply overpowered. Roar is losing popularity, and I can honestly say that in my experience with BP teams, I have never had to face Perish Song.

Of course its nice to build it in your own style but in my opinion this is the strongest bp setup if you are going for results.

Thanks alot. I actually have some ideas on a new team I can make based on some of the suggestions you gave me. I'm thinking Ninjask/ Hypno [CM + Taunt (maybe)]/ Smeargle/ Vaporeon [Defense+ Wish (maybe)]/ Gliscor [SD + Taunt]/ Lucario; which not only helps a huge DD Mence weak but might actually handle Special attackers better. I appriciate the really good feedback (and somebody forcing me to defend my choices) and I'll have to try out that team sometime :)

 

[Caelum]

Seriously what is wrong with you guys? Maddog is a good battler and is extremely skilled with Baton Pass chains (he wrote the BP article on-site, take a look at it!); if he says X isn't a problem what is the point of saying "X is a problem." The majority of successful offensive teams don't have direct ways of dealing with certain threats, they just work around it. Why should his BP team have to be different?

Also, this is obviously a very fun team to play with and there is no shame in that lol.

Anyway, I've spoken with you on shoddy about this team my BP brother so I don't have a ton of comments. However, I'm am going to say this is one the best (if not the best) pure Baton Pass Chains posted in the RMT board in quite some time (probably since Obi's lol).

I'm not going to suggest any member changes as I actually think you have an excellent combination of resistances. Just some nitpicks

Ninjask: Hey Maddog, you should write about those kick ass Ninjask EVs in the EV section of Ninjask. If you don't I'll do it lol. Whenever Klutz get implemented on Shoddy I'll be interested to see this team function with Lopunny.

Gorebyss: Use Mew NOOB. Have you considered Aqua Ring > Substitute? Ingrain + Aqua Ring + Leftovers will allow each of your team members to restore approximately 18% of their health per turn. I'd really consider it.

Smeargle: I'm really biased towards Spider Web > Substitute on Smeargle but I'm not going to push that on you, I'm sure you know the benefits / drawbacks of replacing Substitute with Spider Web so I won't lecture you on it. However, I am going to insist you change your EVs ASAP. Use the on site EVs (hey they are my EVs, I'm bias towards them .-.). 92 HP / 120 Def / 40 SpD / 252 Spe. That maximizes Smeargle's overall defenses assuming maximum Speed.

Gliscor: I'm curious about the Special Defense EVs on Gliscor (I 100% understand why you are running SpD, I'm just wondering what they do specifically).

Lucario: Is there something specific that Life Orb OHKOs that Muscle Band wouldn't?You are usually theoretically sitting at +6 Attack and with Muscle Band you are still guaranteed to OHKO max / max Hippowdon, Gyara etc. I suppose Life Orb could come in handy if you are only able to get off 2 Swords Dance or something but I wouldn't want LO to end your sweep early if Spikes have been set up and you were Whirlwinded into them prior to Ingrain being up or something. I suppose it doesn't matter.

Again, excellent Baton Pass Chain =D.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Oh I remember battling this tonight. Yeah Spider Web on Smeargle would help you immensely once someone switches their phazer out to not get spored.

Zapdos with Tbolt/HP Ice/Roost/Roar rips through this team though.

I'm kinda iffy about Crunch on Lucario. Assuming it does get +6 would it be able to beat Infernape using Vacuum Wave? Perhaps Extremespeed would work over Crunch.

Overall though this is a pretty amazing team.

 

[maddog]

Ninjask: Hey Maddog, you should write about those kick ass Ninjask EVs in the EV section of Ninjask. If you don't I'll do it lol. Whenever Klutz get implemented on Shoddy I'll be interested to see this team function with Lopunny.

Can do. I should really do that sometime,

Gorebyss: Use Mew NOOB. Have you considered Aqua Ring > Substitute? Ingrain + Aqua Ring + Leftovers will allow each of your team members to restore approximately 18% of their health per turn. I'd really consider it.

Actually, this is exactly what my Vaporeon does in ubers. I use Aqua Ring+ Leech Seed (Celebi)+ Leftovers and that's actually about 24% each turn. The main reason I run Substitute on Gorebyss is because most of the time, it is pretty frail and the best way I've found to get in two or so Amnesias is to put up a Sub after my opponent switches out their Heatran, and set up like that. Aqua Ring is definetely worth considering though, and I'll try it out sometime.

Smeargle: I'm really biased towards Spider Web > Substitute on Smeargle but I'm not going to push that on you, I'm sure you know the benefits / drawbacks of replacing Substitute with Spider Web so I won't lecture you on it. However, I am going to insist you change your EVs ASAP. Use the on site EVs (hey they are my EVs, I'm bias towards them .-.). 92 HP / 120 Def / 40 SpD / 252 Spe. That maximizes Smeargle's overall defenses assuming maximum Speed.

I used to use Spider Web and I loved it. There are only three problems with not using Substitute on Smeargle: 2 Turn Sleep, Machamp, and Pritory users. Basically, I found that in order to pull off a successful Spider Web+ Ingrain (if necessary), I would need to get up a Substitute and get it to Smeragle without the Sub breaking. I found that there would be times that I just needed to set up a Substitute on something, or somebody would get lucky and I'd lose, so I recently replaced Spider Web with Sub. Even though its more boring and Spider Web has won me the game many times, its more constitant.

As for the EVs, consider them changed.

Gliscor: I'm curious about the Special Defense EVs on Gliscor (I 100% understand why you are running SpD, I'm just wondering what they do specifically).

I haven't done that many calcuations with that specific spread, but from experience I believe that if I have 2 Amensia's in, LO Zap can't break my Sub. Other than that, I just recently changed my spread from having max defense+ HP to that, so once again I can get back to you.

Lucario: Is there something specific that Life Orb OHKOs that Muscle Band wouldn't?You are usually theoretically sitting at +6 Attack and with Muscle Band you are still guaranteed to OHKO max / max Hippowdon, Gyara etc. I suppose Life Orb could come in handy if you are only able to get off 2 Swords Dance or something but I wouldn't want LO to end your sweep early if Spikes have been set up and you were Whirlwinded into them prior to Ingrain being up or something. I suppose it doesn't matter.

Not with 6 SDs no. However, I've had many times that my chain was just about to fall apart and I decided "fuck i'm just going to go for it" and pass to Lucario. In those situtations, I really need LOs power. I've never had Lucario faint to LO damage, so I'm pretty good on keeping LO just for those situations.

Again, excellent Baton Pass Chain =D.

Thanks for your feedback dude. I can't wait for Lopunny either :)

Zapdos with Tbolt/HP Ice/Roost/Roar rips through this team though.

I'm kinda iffy about Crunch on Lucario. Assuming it does get +6 would it be able to beat Infernape using Vacuum Wave? Perhaps Extremespeed would work over Crunch.

Overall though this is a pretty amazing team.

Zapdos isn't too big of a deal from what I've seen. Too many people are caught up with 'the holy crap he gets heat wave' thing, and that set just doesn't see play anymore. That Zap set would be trouble though.

Crunch is mostly for Cresselia, Dusknoir, Heracross, and Rotom forms, which I wouldn't be able to kill without it.

 

[Kabuto Mushi]

This might be dumb question since you already addressed in in the OP, but can the ninjask take a choice banded Scizor BP? I would guess it can since it only takes 75 (really??) from an Ice Shard, but I've always found Weavile to be quite pathetic...

 

[maddog]

Since you mentioned it, I went ahead and ran some calculations for Ninjask.

Adamant 252 LO Scizor using Bullet Punch: 59.82% - 70.25%
Adamant 252 CB Scizor using Bullet Punch: 68.40% - 80.98%
Adamant 252 LO Mamoswine using Ice Shard: 79.14% - 93.87%
Adamant 252 CB Mamoswine using Ice Shard: 92.02% - 108.59%
Jolly 252 CB Weavile using Ice Shard: 77.91% - 92.64%


So yeah, to answer your question, my Ninjask can take a freaking beating lol.

 

[maddog]

I am still having a few problems with this team: mainly with DD Salamence and CB Tyranitar. I'm thinking that there are very few ways to stop these two, outside of Magnet Rise Mawile and and Flame Orb Lopunny. Any ideas on how I can take care of these? I'm thinking I might have to add some attacks to some different Pokemon in order to take care of them: such as Ice Beam Vaporeon or using Earthquake on Gliscor. However, this also introduces some problems with phazers such as Skarmory in order to deal with these threats. Can anybody think of a happy medium?

 

[Pombo]

2 Words: Weezing. Haze. Since you are a Physical BPer, weez wont be OHKOed. Only smeargle and gliscor can stop him, but not in the switch. And dont forget that the Weez population is growing.

Since you mentioned it, I went ahead and ran some calculations for Ninjask.

Adamant 252 LO Scizor using Bullet Punch: 59.82% - 70.25%
Adamant 252 CB Scizor using Bullet Punch: 68.40% - 80.98%
Adamant 252 LO Mamoswine using Ice Shard: 79.14% - 93.87%
Adamant 252 CB Mamoswine using Ice Shard: 92.02% - 108.59%
Jolly 252 CB Weavile using Ice Shard: 77.91% - 92.64%


So yeah, to answer your question, my Ninjask can take a freaking beating lol.

Scizor lead
turn 1: Protect
turn 2: He BP. He is CBed. In that case, you would need to baton pass right away, to your own scizor. But a scizor with +1 spd isnt great, and its hard to bring Nin back, so its not gonna be a simple game. ( You just gave me an idea....)

 

[reachzero]

I think this is about as good as a BP chain can get, really. It has all the usual risks and weaknesses that any chain does, but it seems solidly built. I disagree with the previous rater about being weak to Haze Weezing (or more to the point, about the relevance of this), since Weezing is rare in OU to begin with (the #63 pokemon is OU) and it has Haze only 28.5% of the time anyway. In other words, there were approximately 2,068 usages of Weezing with Haze, making it approximately as common in OU as Poliwrath and Lickylicky. In other words, I like your team as it is and would not change anything to deal with Haze Weezing.

 

[cim]

I am still having a few problems with this team: mainly with DD Salamence and CB Tyranitar. I'm thinking that there are very few ways to stop these two, outside of Magnet Rise Mawile and and Flame Orb Lopunny. Any ideas on how I can take care of these? I'm thinking I might have to add some attacks to some different Pokemon in order to take care of them: such as Ice Beam Vaporeon or using Earthquake on Gliscor. However, this also introduces some problems with phazers such as Skarmory in order to deal with these threats. Can anybody think of a happy medium?

For CBtar I always used Substitute to scout, then Passed to Gliscor, Scizor, or whatever Water type I happened to be running. With Bullet Punch Scizor you shouldn't have too many problems forcing it out of play.

DDmence though is a bitch and is totally annoying as hell. Gorebyss I guess could "beat" it with Ice Beam but it's still going to take something out if you're not careful... DDmence is one of the reasons I'm scared to do BP :(

 

[maddog]

2 Words: Weezing. Haze. Since you are a Physical BPer, weez wont be OHKOed. Only smeargle and gliscor can stop him, but not in the switch. And dont forget that the Weez population is growing.

Sorry dude, but if you suggesting Weezing (a UU poke that nobody uses in OU), I'm going to have a hard time taking you seriously. Yes Haze Weezing is hard, but its like Perish Song. It might happen one in every 100 games or so, and when the rare time happens, and I don't have the right poke out to stop it, I lose. Whatever.

Scizor lead
turn 1: Protect
turn 2: He BP. He is CBed. In that case, you would need to baton pass right away, to your own scizor. But a scizor with +1 spd isnt great, and its hard to bring Nin back, so its not gonna be a simple game. ( You just gave me an idea....)

Protect and Sub are pretty inchangable; against a Bronzong lead or something I will Sub 100% of the time. If Scizor comes in on a Sub, I protect turn 2, and then pass out. Plus, there is always the option of bringing Ninjask back in. And Scizor is also a pretty unpopular lead.

For CBtar I always used Substitute to scout, then Passed to Gliscor, Scizor, or whatever Water type I happened to be running. With Bullet Punch Scizor you shouldn't have too many problems forcing it out of play.

DDmence though is a bitch and is totally annoying as hell. Gorebyss I guess could "beat" it with Ice Beam but it's still going to take something out if you're not careful... DDmence is one of the reasons I'm scared to do BP :(

The problem with CB tar is that I often find myself scouting for misses with Stone Edge, as my BPers really can't deal with Tar pulling that shit. THe other option I sometimes go to is a really early Lucario pass, which has actually led me to some weird ass victories before. Scizor is pretty easily 2HKOed by Stone Edge and with that high crit rate I find it too risky (and often useless) to try and put up some Iron Defenses.

I have two ideas against DD mence. When Klutz is up and running, I can use Lopunny and burn the bitch. Ice Beam on Gorebyss might be the only real way to force it out all the way though =/

 

[scwizard]

I'm tempted to dismiss baton pass teams as a whole, but I remember at one point someone had a baton pass team pretty high up the shoddy ladder.

However I think the key to a successful baton pass team is to make it so that the pokemon aren't overly dependent on the baton pass chain.

I think this team is a perfect example of over dependence of baton passing. It's pretty impossible for you to win if the chain is somehow broken.

I would EV Scizor more offensively so he poses a threat as himself and isn't just another link in the chain.

Basically I think it's foolish to try to make a "baton pass team" and efforts are better focused into making "a team that uses baton pass"


EDIT: also taunt works through subs and screws you over.


RATE: C

 

[maddog]

I'm tempted to dismiss baton pass teams as a whole, but I remember at one point someone had a baton pass team pretty high up the shoddy ladder.

However I think the key to a successful baton pass team is to make it so that the pokemon aren't overly dependent on the baton pass chain.

I think this team is a perfect example of over dependence of baton passing. It's pretty impossible for you to win if the chain is somehow broken.

I would EV Scizor more offensively so he poses a threat as himself and isn't just another link in the chain.

Basically I think it's foolish to try to make a "baton pass team" and efforts are better focused into making "a team that uses baton pass"


EDIT: also taunt works through subs and screws you over.

www.smogon.com/dp/articles/baton_pass_chains

Maybe you should read this sometime, before you denounce my team so quickly. As I've said to other people, this chain is can take quite a huge amount of abuse, its not just "Oh, Roar/ WW kills you 100% of the time" or "Taunt screws you over". With some other teams, you can try and set up and maybe get a few kills, and still lose the game. The idea behind this is high risk high reward, if you want to think about it that way. If I get set up, I will win. It's that simple. Honestly half of the people are like "omg cheap bp team" and the other half are like "wow your stupid". I can assure you its neither and I really wish people would be able to suggest more than "your using the wrong team". If I was using the wrong team, I would have already changed it. If I go up against you and your using a team that isn't prepared to take this on, or I outpredict you like crazy (which happens most games), I can assure you that I can get you to change your mind about what you think is a useless team. And yes, I have used all kinds of different short BP chains, (Zapdos->Burn Orb Heracross, Gliscor->Rock Polish Metagross, Togekiss-> Deoxys-S when it was legal), and I enjoy the fact that this team is more consistent than those. Don't give me this bullshit. As for Scizor, which is the only actual suggestion you made, I won't change the EV spread to be more offensive because I need all the defense I can get against threats like Salamence and Tyranitar. Bullet Punch won't do the job against either of them no matter how many attack EVs I put in.

 

[Flying Machine]

You could change the nature on Scizor to Technician since you aren't using a Bug Move anyway. Nice team! :)

PS: Maybe change the item on Smeargle to Focus Sash. I was testing your team and found people forget to SR most often, and Sashes remain intact. Works nice, well done!

 

[Darkmalice]

5 Pokemon on your team have Substitute. Especially for a baton passing team in which Subs are passed, I consider this unnecessary. In place of Sub, Smeargle could have Spider Web, Scizor could have Roost and Gliscor can have Roost. Ninjask should definitely remain with Sub, and one other Sub should do the role of passing Subs fine (Gorebyss).

And why does Smeargle have Shed Shell? The only thing that traps it is Dugtrio, and Ninjask should easily be able to give him the speed needed to Baton Pass to Gliscor before Dugtrio attacks. I rather have Leftovers, a pinch berry or even Focus Band. (And if Ninjaks isn't around to give you enough speed, it's probably gg, with or without the Shed Shell, because Taunt will dominate your ass).

To solve the Ninjask death problem, you could have Agility instead of Bullet Punch on Scizor, as you won't be cutting pokemon's health down before Lucario comes into play, so Bullet Punch will have little use.