Wynaut

[Mekkah]

the_arctic_one, he is likely referring to Wobbuffet's personal style of playing: forking your opponent using Encore and Shadow Tag, then pretty much always being able to respond in the Wobbuffet's player's huge advantage with either free turns or a Counter/Mirror Coat for a quick KO. This pretty much requires little to no prediction to pull off.

I disagree that Wobby was banned just for that. It required his rather large durability to be able to pull it off effectively. I don't think you'll have an easy time finding many good OU Pokemon who aren't capable of downing Wynaut in 2 hits, with the exception of Blissey, which heavily reduces the "mindless" window Wobbuffet has (it can't switch into any attack now, and it needs to predict right instead of Encoring if it wants to Counter/Mirror Coat something that 2HKOs it).

 

[lilyhollow]

Wynaut isn't less mindless than Wobbuffet, it just has fewer situations in which it can be mindless. The argument seems similar to allowing, say, Horn Drill Rhyhorn, because it'll be used so rarely and ineffectively that we don't really care if it's doing the exact same thing we're trying to avoid by banning OHKOs in the first place.

That said, I guess I can't pretend that the community came to some sort of consensus that Wobbuffet was "100% solely banned for being 'mindless.'" I just don't think that usage statistics or player experience really reflected a "he's too good" position very well.

 

[the_artic_one]

CB Tyranitar isn't less mindless than Wobbuffet, it just has fewer situations in which it can be mindless.

Dugtrio isn't less mindless than Wobbuffet, it just has fewer situations in which it can be mindless.

Trapinch isn't less mindless than Wobbuffet, it just has fewer situations in which it can be mindless.

Magnezone isn't less mindless than Wobbuffet, it just has fewer situations in which it can be mindless.

 

[QibingZero]

None of those pokemon behave in the same fashion as Wobbuffet, though. The only difference in Wynaut and Wobbuffet is their stats, which is why comparing the two holds so much more weight.

So you predict incorrectly and get hit by an attack. Wynaut isn't getting OHKOed by any wall's attacks, and you have a much easier prediction on your hands for the next turn. They still can't switch out, and are pretty much forced into using that same attacking move. You can always come back in later if they dare to use a support move. You know, like when something like Hippowdon needs to Slack Off because it's doing it's job. The level of prediction required is not that high.

Also, Wynaut can still come in after a Choice user kills something and Counter it back for the KO. Obviously it's going to only be using either Counter or Mirror Coat, rather than both, but it's a small price to pay when you realize it's first priority will be to abuse it's Shadow Tag + Encore + Tickle abilities.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

The problem with Wynaut and Wobbuffet is that between Shadow Tag and Encore, you 100% know what your opponent is going to do next and can react accordingly. There's no prediction, no quick thinking, just Wynaut > Switch > Set up for free.

It's equally bad in UU, as it is capable of absolutely ravaging pretty much every major wall in UU. Think of it this way. Here is the list of major UU Walls that are slower than Max Speed Timid Wynaut with no Speed investment.

Steelix
Slowbro
Tangrowth
Slowking
Aggron
Regirock
Registeel
Regice
Hariyama
Muk
Spiritomb
Cradily
Weezing
Clefable

With every single one of these walls, Wynaut can come in. If the wall heals or stat ups or uses some other support move, Wynaut is free to Encore it and then set something up or Tickle or something. However, if the wall attacks, it can survive a hit, and then Destiny Bond. If the wall decides to kill it, then the wall goes with it. If it SRs or something, then all Wynaut has to do is Encore (and maybe Tickle) and go to something else, like a Trapinch, or something that needs time to set up, like an Ursaring. There is literally zero prediction required in this process, and there is no way to stop it or prepare for it. If you are carrying one of these Pokemon, you're going to lose it or let something get set up. It's that easy. This is exactly what Wobbuffet did in OU, and it is a proven broken strategy.

 

[lilyhollow]

All four of those pokemon are very different from Wobbuffet in function. Wynaut is literally just a less effective Wobbuffet that still does everything we had reason to take issue with Wobbuffet about (so apparently not for "being a generic trapper/revenge killer") in the first place.

edit: I'm slow

 

[the_artic_one]

I still fail to see how these two situations are different:

To use CBtar successfully I must come in on something slower than him that will die to pursuit on a turn where it's using a move that can't hurt CBtar and then use pursuit.

To use Wobbuffet successfully I must come in on something slower than him on a turn where it's using a move that can't hurt Wobuffet and then use encore.

There is no difference in the function, just in the number of viable targets due to the requirement of ttar's targets needing to die to pursuit (or not possess any moves that can threaten ttar) to be viable. It's the number of viable targets that makes wobba broken, not just his function.

If wynaut turns out to have a similar number of targets I say ban him. My issue is that, due to his lower durability, we can't really tell how many targets he'll actually have without testing him.

 

[Legacy Raider]

CB Tyranitar's Pursuit does not map out your opponent's next 8 moves for you.

 

[the_artic_one]

No, it just kills you in 1.

 

[EeveeTrainer]

Man, if you just switch Wynaut into Blissey/Hippowdon/whatever when it uses Softboiled/Wish/Slack Off and just Encore, you can force it to use all of its recovery PP by just sitting there. And as if forcing Blissey to use all of its recovery PP isn't enough, it can just go ahead and start Tickling while you're futilely using Softboiled and then switch to a Pursuit user... dead Blissey. Fuck Wynaut. (This strategy, discussed here by my favorite user, works no differently between Wobbuffet and Wynaut.)

Don't forget Focus Sash on Wynaut if Leftovers doesn't prove useful on something so frail. It's basically guaranteed a KO on a Choice user. Heck, it doesn't even need Focus Sash to stop some seriously deadly Choice users, like Scizor and its Bullet Punch or Heatran and its Earth Power/Hidden Power. Fuck Wynaut.

This Pokemon deserves to be banned from all tiers of competitive play. Its brokenness has nothing to do with its (admittedly crappy) stats. It doesn't need stats to break things, which it does so without any skill involved. Similar to BP teams, which I also attest take little to no skill to use (see Smogon Frontier rules), Wynaut is one of those dumb Pokemon strategies that allows your opponent to win while he's sitting back jerking off (or driving, lol, as Jump can attest, and there's little debate that Jump's CLS BT team is similarly "broken", but that's okay because the AI is dumb and implements an auto-Shadow Tag on itself).

Essentially, with regards to its significantly lower stats when compared to Wobbuffet, Wynaut is literally to the point at which (as Jump put it when speaking of his original Lopunny BT team) "the numbers don't even matter".

 

[ToF]

I agree with basically everything ET said. I think this argument comes down to the what we as a community define as "broken". The ease with which Wynaut (and Wobbuffet) can set up on a few defensive OU Pokemon is considered by me as "broken". Bringing in Wynaut on a move like Stealth Rock by a slow wall basically nets you a free kill, and with what work? If we are truly encouraging competitive Pokemon, a tactic as cheap as this should be banned, and since this tactic is all that Wynaut will do, a ban on the Pokemon itself.

 

[Bologo]

ET, part of me can't believe that you're arguing that Wobb and Wynaut should be banned from Ubers of all things, y'know, the place where no pokemon is banned (bar Arceus for completely different reasons). If you honestly think that Wynaut or Wobbuffet is fast or durable enough to set up on very much in ubers besides Blissey, you're sadly mistaken. Banning stuff is supposed to be a last resort, and it doesn't look as if Uber is in need of a last resort ban, and it probably will never be...

Now to answer the question presented by the OP and get back on topic, yes, we should definitely be allowing Wynaut in OU if we're allowing it in UU. It just makes absolutely no sense to test a pokemon in a lower tier but not even allow it in a higher tier.

 

[Aeolus]

I can't imagine a situation in which Wynaut should be tested in UU at this time. All "pokemon stuff" aside, it is an inefficient way of testing a potentially uber pokemon. I've asked Doug to remove it from the ladder. I also contacted RBG about it.

 

[DougJustDoug]

It's done. Wynaut is banned on both the Standard and UU ladders.

 

[Aeolus]

thanks