yeah I posted this before I knew.
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Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
X&Y LITTLE CUP VICTIM OF THE WEEK (Week 5, SD Gligar) (SEE POST 207)
- Thread starter Electrolyte
- Start date
Sturdy cannon Magnemite
Magnemite @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 40 Def / 232 SAtk / 236 Spd
Timid Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Substitute
232 SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (Sneasel): 24-30 (109.09 - 136.36%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And, as long as rocks and spikes aren't out, or you switch in to Ice Punch with Spikes, you are guaranteed the OHKO. This is hugely supported by Skill Link Rapid Spin Shellder, getting the foe out and unprotected.
Magnemite @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 40 Def / 232 SAtk / 236 Spd
Timid Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Substitute
232 SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (Sneasel): 24-30 (109.09 - 136.36%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And, as long as rocks and spikes aren't out, or you switch in to Ice Punch with Spikes, you are guaranteed the OHKO. This is hugely supported by Skill Link Rapid Spin Shellder, getting the foe out and unprotected.
Alright, I'm closing this thread tomorrow, so be sure to get your sets in if you haven't already! Also keep in mind that discussions about Sneasel are permitted and encouraged until when I close Voting near the mid-end of this week and put up a different Victim, so don't be afraid to voice your opinion!
Right now, I'm going to be mainstream and say that Goddess Briyella's Snubbull set is probably the best answer to Sneasel so far with Growlithe coming in close second. Although they both solidly handle Sneasel in their own ways, I like Briyella's Snubbull the best because itis so fucking annoying is a very solid Pokemon defensively. Snubbull can easily tank a Knock Off and Ice Punch (though it will be damaged to the point where it can't really do anything else for the rest of the match) but OHKO with Play Rough. The cool thing about Snubbull is that it retains the focus of countering Sneasel but doesn't sacrifice other important aspects- such as offensive presence, momentum, and coverage- in order to do so, making it a great contender for this week's poll. Snubbull's Play Rough hits pretty hard and is certain to ward off any physical based attackers in fright of -Atk, and Thunder Wave also makes Snubbull really hard to switch into. Not only does it counter Sneasel adequately, it also doesn't have to sacrifice offensive presence in the process.
Following along those lines, unitard's Growlithe is also a great answer. It is even more reliable at countering Sneasel than Snubbull (except when Stealth Rock is up) and can easily threaten it out. Plus, it can recover off the damage, helping it last longer so it can continuously and reliably deal with Sneasel when necessary, which is extremely important since Sneasel is a very fluid Pokemon that tends to switch in and out a lot. Growlithe doesn't drop offensive power either; Flare Blitz hits like a truck and goes relatively unresisted in the Little Cup tier, making it a very prominent attacker. Will-o-Wisp is also a great move to cripple not only Sneasel if it is foolish enough to stay in but also anything that is going to try to switch into Growlithe, such as the physical Rock- and Ground-types that are common in the tier. Switching Growlithe into Sneasel doesn't take much thought, won't have much consequence, reliably deals with the threat, and grabs momentum in the process. Very nice submission.
Remember, we're looking for Pokemon that can both reliably counter the Victim as well as hold its ground in the metagame either offensively or defensively against other common threats besides the Victim. The better the submissions are at those two things, the more likely they will get voted for!
Right now, I'm going to be mainstream and say that Goddess Briyella's Snubbull set is probably the best answer to Sneasel so far with Growlithe coming in close second. Although they both solidly handle Sneasel in their own ways, I like Briyella's Snubbull the best because it
Following along those lines, unitard's Growlithe is also a great answer. It is even more reliable at countering Sneasel than Snubbull (except when Stealth Rock is up) and can easily threaten it out. Plus, it can recover off the damage, helping it last longer so it can continuously and reliably deal with Sneasel when necessary, which is extremely important since Sneasel is a very fluid Pokemon that tends to switch in and out a lot. Growlithe doesn't drop offensive power either; Flare Blitz hits like a truck and goes relatively unresisted in the Little Cup tier, making it a very prominent attacker. Will-o-Wisp is also a great move to cripple not only Sneasel if it is foolish enough to stay in but also anything that is going to try to switch into Growlithe, such as the physical Rock- and Ground-types that are common in the tier. Switching Growlithe into Sneasel doesn't take much thought, won't have much consequence, reliably deals with the threat, and grabs momentum in the process. Very nice submission.
Remember, we're looking for Pokemon that can both reliably counter the Victim as well as hold its ground in the metagame either offensively or defensively against other common threats besides the Victim. The better the submissions are at those two things, the more likely they will get voted for!
@ bold: sure thing.
My main issue with Snubble is that to be an effective counter, it needs to be at full health all of the time and it can't recover HP. This means if you want to use it to counter Sneasel, you can't use it for anything else. Chances are, you will need to use it for something else, and Sneasel can just finish Snubble off. Another problem with Snubble is that it's simply a means of delaying Sneasel's sweep rather than taking advantage of its presence or fully making Sneasel useless while he's alive. Knock Off and switching out is not something that Sneasel users are unfamiliar with, you get rid of their item and then 2HKO them next switch-in. Snubble isn't exactly weak, but it isn't exactly strong enough to justify using it over other Pokemon who can counter Sneasel more effectively and still have other utilities.
Growlithe is simply not an effective counter with Stealth Rock up. It's longevity due to recovery and it's Flare Blitz make it a great Pokemon and check, but not a counter.
The only Pokemon who can take the hits and recover off the damage done are those bulky fighting-types with Drain Punch, of which Timburr is the strongest. And as a bonus, priority helps them check in a pinch.
Ok, time for voting!
Here's how this is going to work. Each of you will vote for 1 Pokemon and 1 Pokemon only, and post it as a comment in this thread in clear, bolded letters. You may not vote for yourself. You may not change your vote. Discussion is allowed and encouraged!
Here are your options:
Expulso's Choice Scarf Sneasel
Heysup's Eviolite Timburr
leingodf8's Makuhita
Pen Ink's Shellos
unitard's Growlithe
Corkscrew's Bulky Croagunk
Swan Songs's Eviolite Ponyta
Goddess Briyella's Snubbull
BadPandaPancham's Stunky
Raseri's Pancham
Ssin's Choice Scarf Larvesta
copycatcat's Magnemite
Click on the Pokemon links to view the post. Each vote will equal one point, and the submission with the most points at the end will win the voting round with ties broken by me. The user that submitted the winning post will receive +0.5 voting points to every single future vote they cast.
Good luck everybody! Be sure to get your votes in before the end of the week!
Here's how this is going to work. Each of you will vote for 1 Pokemon and 1 Pokemon only, and post it as a comment in this thread in clear, bolded letters. You may not vote for yourself. You may not change your vote. Discussion is allowed and encouraged!
Here are your options:
Expulso's Choice Scarf Sneasel
Heysup's Eviolite Timburr
leingodf8's Makuhita
Pen Ink's Shellos
unitard's Growlithe
Corkscrew's Bulky Croagunk
Swan Songs's Eviolite Ponyta
Goddess Briyella's Snubbull
BadPandaPancham's Stunky
Raseri's Pancham
Ssin's Choice Scarf Larvesta
copycatcat's Magnemite
Click on the Pokemon links to view the post. Each vote will equal one point, and the submission with the most points at the end will win the voting round with ties broken by me. The user that submitted the winning post will receive +0.5 voting points to every single future vote they cast.
Good luck everybody! Be sure to get your votes in before the end of the week!
Goddess Briyella
Banned deucer.
My vote is for Corkscrew's Croagunk set. It deals with the given Sneasel set similarly to the way Heysup's Timburr set does, but Croagunk has an added resistance to Brick Break, giving it more room to switch in on a resist. Croagunk is also the only Fighting type in LC that is not weak to the new Fairy type and can actually use its STAB to hit Fairy types super-effectively without sacrificing its offensive Fighting-type presence. I feel this makes Croagunk a very unique answer to Sneasel and also gives it an edge in the XY Little Cup metagame that other Fighting-types do not possess.
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I think that there are quite a few decent options here, as most bulky fire and fighting types make for good Sneasel switch-ins (although rocks aren't very fun for the fire types to switch into). But the one that stands out to me as the only true *counter* is Heysup's Timburr. Many of the other mons actually can't switch in on the wrong move (Ponyta, Croagunk, Larvesta, Shellos etc.) and are therefore really only checks to Sneasel, not that they are bad choices, as Sneasel is a hell of a lot easier to check than it is to counter. However if I needed a Sneasel counter, I would choose Timburr, as it can switch into any move and regain health with drain punch, or pick it off with mach punch. And Timburr is a great pokemon in LC anyways, so it is definitely a top contender for this thread.
Seeing as I've been using this guy to great effect for a long time I'm probably a fair bit biased but I'm going to have to go for Heysups's Timburr for my vote. Great stats, semi reliable recovery, powerful priority and the ever wornderful guts have made it an all star counter while still being a very solid pokemon in the meta game. While it cant beat fairies like crogunk can, it gains the ability to hold its own against the likes of bulky missy, growlithe, and ponyta with guts and better bulk. I'd probably say its a close draw between crogunk and snubull for second place though.
Very skeptical of some of the sets as they really aren't practical. Like Heysup said, Snubbull needs to be at 100%, and after it is done with Sneseal, it is pretty much just death fodder.
Croagunk can't switch in on Sneseal...
236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Croagunk: (40.38 - 51.92%) -- 30.47% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Knock Off: 25 - 30.76%
236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Croagunk: (61.53 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Vaccuum Wave only does 72.72% to Sneseal, sooooo Croagunk can only revenge it.
Choice Scarf Sneseal completely loses if it switches in on Brick Break? Or even if it gets hit with Knock Off you have to rely on a speed tie to beat it
Shellos is 2HKO'd by Knock Off:
236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 228 HP / 212 Def+ Eviolite Shellos: 12-16 (44.44 - 59.25%) -- 68.36% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
As stated in the "freed pokemon" thread, Growlithe can be 2HKO'd with Stealth Rock.
Ponyta flat out dies to two Knock Offs, or even any move + Knock Off, or just one Knock Off if stealth rock is in play.
Stunky also flat out loses also:
236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 188 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Stunky: 9-13 (36 - 52%) -- 88.67% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Knock Off: 24 - 32%
236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 188 HP / 160+ Def Stunky: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Even if you switch in on a Knock Off, it gets killed.
The Pancham set posted loses if it switches into Knock Off, as it is killed by Ice Punch after losing its item
Again, Larvesta loses if it switches into Knock Off. Also Ice Punch + Stealth Rock + A following Ice Shard KOs it as well.
The Magnemite loses if there is stealth rock up.
Timburr can switch in, but only if it is max HP max defense, and only once or twice tops.
Makuhita survives any combination of moves, but it can be left with as low as 20% health so it can't do too much else.
Sooo none of them are really perfect but Timburr probably fairs the best.
Croagunk can't switch in on Sneseal...
236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Croagunk: (40.38 - 51.92%) -- 30.47% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Knock Off: 25 - 30.76%
236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Croagunk: (61.53 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Vaccuum Wave only does 72.72% to Sneseal, sooooo Croagunk can only revenge it.
Choice Scarf Sneseal completely loses if it switches in on Brick Break? Or even if it gets hit with Knock Off you have to rely on a speed tie to beat it
Shellos is 2HKO'd by Knock Off:
236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 228 HP / 212 Def+ Eviolite Shellos: 12-16 (44.44 - 59.25%) -- 68.36% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
As stated in the "freed pokemon" thread, Growlithe can be 2HKO'd with Stealth Rock.
Ponyta flat out dies to two Knock Offs, or even any move + Knock Off, or just one Knock Off if stealth rock is in play.
Stunky also flat out loses also:
236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 188 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Stunky: 9-13 (36 - 52%) -- 88.67% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Knock Off: 24 - 32%
236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 188 HP / 160+ Def Stunky: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Even if you switch in on a Knock Off, it gets killed.
The Pancham set posted loses if it switches into Knock Off, as it is killed by Ice Punch after losing its item
Again, Larvesta loses if it switches into Knock Off. Also Ice Punch + Stealth Rock + A following Ice Shard KOs it as well.
The Magnemite loses if there is stealth rock up.
Timburr can switch in, but only if it is max HP max defense, and only once or twice tops.
Makuhita survives any combination of moves, but it can be left with as low as 20% health so it can't do too much else.
Sooo none of them are really perfect but Timburr probably fairs the best.
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Sums everything up pretty well for me, but I can't vote for myself so I'll go with leingodf8's Makuhita since it actually counters it unlike the others....even though it's like a worse Timburr :P.
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not when they switch in Gligar, which allows you to heal a massive 1HP damage!
my choice goes to Briyella's Snubbul because it provides amazing utility for a team with Thunder Wave and is very bulky etc etc ice punch nails gligar etc etc
I'm voting for Heysup's Timburr simply because of the fact that it isn't a counter that is aimed towards sneasel only, as it is really just the average timburr that you find on many LC teams. This means that you have an extra teamslot which is fantastic. Timburr also has ice punch which can deal with any gligar that try switching in to a drain punch. As Heysup said, the enemy sneasel has some choices when it encounters a Timburr.
Trainer A brings back another pokemon and sends out Timburr, sneasel gets a free ice punch/knock off/brick break
The only choice it has after this is to ice shard or switch because otherwise it will get whooped by mach punch. Really the worst case scenario is that sneasel uses knock off, however, if you make a safe switch after one of your pokes have died to sneasel then this can be avoided.
Trainer A brings back another pokemon and sends out Timburr, sneasel gets a free ice punch/knock off/brick break
The only choice it has after this is to ice shard or switch because otherwise it will get whooped by mach punch. Really the worst case scenario is that sneasel uses knock off, however, if you make a safe switch after one of your pokes have died to sneasel then this can be avoided.
yah
This is a tough one but...I am deciding between Goddess Briyella's Snubbull or Heysup's Timburr...
I guess I will have to say Heysup's Timburr on this one..
I guess I will have to say Heysup's Timburr on this one..
Got to have to vote for Heysup's timburr, I do like Pen Ink's shellos too though.
Heysup's timburr
Easily deals with sneasel, switch to gligar would be extremely predictable so you could double switch to your sneasel/scarfchou etc.
Easily deals with sneasel, switch to gligar would be extremely predictable so you could double switch to your sneasel/scarfchou etc.
That doesn't solve the problem though. Sneasel can just switch in again, hit Timburr once more, and it can't recover with Gilgar around. The whole point why Timburr isn't perfect ( or rather, a durable counter) is that it NEEDS to Drain Punch to get back health or it just dies to repeated hits. There is a lot of risk going for an Ice Punch (if you even have it, and even then if you are max HP max defense gilgar won't take that much).
So on paper, yes Timburr is a good answer to Sneasel. In practice though, you need a lot more than just packing Timburr to beat Sneasel.
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First, read the opening, even if this isn't a submission, only one entry/set is allowed. :/
Secondly, a few days ago I messaged Electrolyte with pretty much this same set x)
Heysup's Timburr.That's a perfect counter.
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It seems this is nothing more than a formality at this point, so I'll go with Makuhita for its creativity (but Timburr is really the most practical option given Makuhita's struggles against everything else).
Shouting, I agree with you that Drain Punch's unreliability makes Timburr less than ideal, but I think you're slightly exaggerating how much of a problem that is. Because of Sneasel's frailty, weakness to SR, and LO recoil, you don't have to keep forcing it out indefinitely (I don't usually find I need to force it out more than twice). It isn't like Mienfoo which can effortlessly switch in and out all game. Also, Gligar (even with max defenses) isn't foolproof as a repeated switch-in to Timburr, since Timburr has Knock Off (and, of course, Ice Punch once Eviolite is gone).
You're right that you can't slap Timburr on your team and then brainlessly throw it in against Sneasel and Drain Punch away. But with smart play, it can force Sneasel out at least a couple of times and shift momentum in your favor.
Shouting, I agree with you that Drain Punch's unreliability makes Timburr less than ideal, but I think you're slightly exaggerating how much of a problem that is. Because of Sneasel's frailty, weakness to SR, and LO recoil, you don't have to keep forcing it out indefinitely (I don't usually find I need to force it out more than twice). It isn't like Mienfoo which can effortlessly switch in and out all game. Also, Gligar (even with max defenses) isn't foolproof as a repeated switch-in to Timburr, since Timburr has Knock Off (and, of course, Ice Punch once Eviolite is gone).
You're right that you can't slap Timburr on your team and then brainlessly throw it in against Sneasel and Drain Punch away. But with smart play, it can force Sneasel out at least a couple of times and shift momentum in your favor.
Sneasel IS the definition of a hit-and-run threat, so it definitely will come in once, throw out two attacks, and then switch out, rinse and repeat. Every time something is weakened or just dies.
Okay, you want to use Knock Off on incoming Gilgar and flat out lose to Sneasel if it stays in? The fact of the matter is, you have a lot to risk going for anything that isn't Drain Punch on your first switch in. If you're wrong, you just lost your Sneasel "counter" Also, Knock off means that Gilgar can just cause even more damage with a boosted Acrobatics.
36+ Atk Timburr Ice Punch vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 12-16 (46.15 - 61.53%) -- 12.11% chance to 2HKO
That is not going to get you far at all, especially when Gilgar is carrying roost.
Sneasel isn't that frail either, it can survive Bullet Punch from Meditite and a Vaccum Wave from Croagunk. It might not be the bulkiest thing on earth, but it's not Carvanha.
Okay, you want to use Knock Off on incoming Gilgar and flat out lose to Sneasel if it stays in? The fact of the matter is, you have a lot to risk going for anything that isn't Drain Punch on your first switch in. If you're wrong, you just lost your Sneasel "counter" Also, Knock off means that Gilgar can just cause even more damage with a boosted Acrobatics.
36+ Atk Timburr Ice Punch vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 12-16 (46.15 - 61.53%) -- 12.11% chance to 2HKO
That is not going to get you far at all, especially when Gilgar is carrying roost.
Sneasel isn't that frail either, it can survive Bullet Punch from Meditite and a Vaccum Wave from Croagunk. It might not be the bulkiest thing on earth, but it's not Carvanha.