Last week, an interesting discussion happened in DOUcord, talking about why Tiers 1 and 2 of the VR are the way they are. Tier 1 features only the genies and Volcanion, while Mega Gengar and Mega Kangaskhan reside at a lower rank. To the outsider, this may seem weird—
why are two of the format's best attackers and buildarounds not ranked to be the very pinnacle of the metagame? However, I'll talk about here why this particular ranking actually is quite sensible and reflects how the metagame works.
Note that these are all generally my takes on the metagame, you can disagree.
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On the Two-Fold Utility Landorus-T / Thundurus / Volcanion (LTV)
First point that needs to be established:
Landorus-T, Thundurus, and Volcanion are all very powerful Pokemon in a vacuum, and for XY DOU's standards, their individual kits alone would merit them DOU-level usage without considering specific metagame match-ups. To give a quick rundown:
Landorus-T is a strong attacker with a relatively balanced defensive profile. Packing 145 base Attack and STAB Earthquake, it's able to output high damage very efficiently. Meanwhile, its Ground / Flying defensive typing gives it two handy immunities to Electric and Ground, as well as a Fighting resistance. Most importantly, it has Intimidate access, an obviously powerful ability that lets it carry a team's matchup against opposing physical attackers. Landorus-T in general excels at being a pivot, using its Earthquakes to pressure and slowly break down the opposing team, while leveraging its bulk, typing, and Intimidate to mitigate the damage of physical foes.
On top of an interesting stat spread that lends it great versatility, Thundurus also notably has Prankster Thunder Wave. Prankster Thunder Wave is fundamentally strong as it effectively prevents almost any faster attack from being a real threat. It also even has a base 125 Special Attack stat, which lets its Thunderbolt deal good damage while uninvested. It being a utility Pokemon with Prankster allows it to run fully defensive spreads while still being effective, giving it surprising tenacity despite its frail 79 / 70 / 80 spread. It also just has great offensive base stats, with a stellar 111 base Speed, to run effectively run offensive sets and subvert expectations. (It also has a Defiant set, but in the context of talking about Thundurus being a Tier 1 Pokemon, this doesn't matter.)
When it comes to looking at bulky special attackers, more than their offensive abilities it's their defensive utility which make or break their viability. Its Water / Fire typing—fortunately for Volcanion, its profile is stellar on both ends. Fire / Water defensive typing gives it valuable resistances to Fire, Ice, Steel, and Fairy, while its ability Water Absorb even gives it an additional immunity to Water-type attacks. Offensively, a Fire / Water STAB combination is also generally quite strong due to great neutral and super effective coverage (though walled by Dragon); Heat Wave makes Volcanion be great at breaking down the opposing team, while Steam Eruption is obviously such a busted move because it's basically Hydro Pump with a significant burn chance in a Generation where chip damage from burn actually matters. All of this without even mention its base stats as well; its 80 / 120 physical bulk lets it stomach one EQ and most users are punished by Steam Eruption, and base 130 Special Attack is just obviously fantastic for an attacking role.
Of course, the very concept of metagaming prevents us from looking at individual Pokemon in a vacuum—as certain Pokemon / teams / team archetypes are established to be strong, the viability of certain Pokemon then fluctuate in accordance to their match-ups. This is what make Landorus-T, Thundurus, and Volcanion the Tier 1 Pokemon that they are—
not only are LTV already fundamentally powerful, metagame-shaping Pokemon individually, they also interact in a way that makes them very convenient answers to themselves. I'll be giving a quick rundown on this as well; in
Mirror Dynamics below, I'll be talking about how each individual Pokemon interact with each other in the LTV mirror.
| Pokemon | Pokemon | General Mirror Dynamics |
|---|
| Landorus-T | Landorus-T | One of the best answers to physical Ground-types is, unsurprsingly, a Flying-type with Intimidate, and that's what Landorus-T is. Often, the mirror matchup becomes a staring contest for both parties, especially in the lead position where pleasantries are exchanged with Intimidating looks. Outside of the lead, the match-up becomes about being in position to Intimidate the opposing Landorus-T. Rocky Helmet sets can typically get ahead in the mirror momentarily as these sets can set Stealth Rocks in the mirror and can punish a U-turn, but they also tend to be less consistent versus the broader metagame so it often goes minus for its team later on. |
| Landorus-T | Thundurus | As a Ground-type, Landorus-T is a Thunder Wave-immunity. Assault Vest sets in particular are often super comfortable, especially in the early-game, as they can typically take an HP Ice and deal much more back with Stone Edge. Later into the game, though, Thundurus comes up better as Landorus-T is often then in range of HP Ice lethal, after supposedly doing its duties as a pivot. It's generally neutral either way, with both Pokemon essentially neutralizing each other. This is not counting the Defiant set, of course, but that's not the set that makes Thundurus Tier 1. |
| Landorus-T | Volcanion | Landorus-T is a Ground-type, and Ground is super effective against Fire. However, Volcanion is VERY physically bulky even while uninvested, and Landorus-T really would NOT want to take a Steam Eruption. It's an even trade when both are healthy if Landorus-T is AV, and better for Landorus-T after chip on both sides, purely because it's faster. Volcanion also generally comes off great if a teammate Landorus-T comes onto the field for Intimidate, as opposing -1 defensive Landorus-T should only deal around 42% with EQ to Volcanion, more or less.
Volcanion having this dynamic is particularly one reason why Heatran fell off; Heatran needs Shuca Berry to be any comfortable doing this (i.e. won't have an actual difference-making item like AV / Safety Goggles), and it also lacks any real punish after the fact as it only has a meager Heat Wave to hit back with. |
| Thundurus | Thundurus | As an Electric-type, Thundurus is a Thunder Wave immunity, and as Thundurus is also often just a bulky specially defensive set, they often come into each other. It's literally a staring contest. A Thundurus running Toxic does come off the best in the mirror, but that's dark technology (it's real, but the average person someone can ask an XY team from will likely not have any teams with Toxic Thundurus) |
| Thundurus | Volcanion | Volcanion versus Thundurus is actually the only blatantly losing matchup within the LTV mirror dynamic—however, if we're to compare the match-up to Thundurus with the Pokemon Volcanion usurped in Heatran, it's actually relatively fine overall? An AV Volcanion takes around 46% from a Modest 0 SpA Thundurus, while Heatran (not AV) takes around 41%. "bUt mEmoRic, oNe hAs AV aNd tHe oThEr dOeSn'T!!1", to which I respond, there is no world where Heatran can run an AV in XY with its set of weaknesses (particularly to Fighting and Water). Plus, this is a comparison between the two at their most practical.
Volcanion is also just harder for Thundurus to switch into / deal with on the field, purely because Steam Eruption is that strong of a move. And, if taking the engagement against Thundurus with Volcanion is not the preferred route, it's also really easy to just switch out into Landorus-T lol; Hidden Power Ice for the switch only gets clicked by psychopaths in neutral positions, mostly because there is a very real threat of Volcanion just staying in anyway to Steam. |
| Volcanion | Volcanion | With a 4x resistance to Fire and Water Absorb, Volcanion is the best thing to switch into itself. The AV Volcanion mirror is often a lot about trying to get better value out of your own compared to the other guy's; thus, knowing who you should have next to your Volcanion is important. You'll feel at best in positions where you can click Steam Eruption; clicking EP is something that you want to avoid because it's generally low value, unless specifically targeting Volcanion matters for a desired wincon, of course. In AV vs Non-AV matchups, the non-AV set loses, of course... unless it's a Sub set with Lefties, in which case the match-up gets sussy for the AV player for not having Protect and they probably deserve to lose at that point. Running SubLefties Volcanion in this metagame is kinda impossible though, so it's whatevs. |
As can be seen above, LTV by themselves can comprise a team's match-up into opposing LTV quite well. We can conclude, then, that players often opt into using LTV to get the best of both worlds, because
they simultaneously get to reap the benefits of having the best Pokemon in the format while also having answers to the best Pokemon in the format on the opposing team.
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Viability Rankings Tiers: The Numbers and Dynamics
Perhaps if we look at the other Oldgen VRs, we'll genuinely struggle to find a set of top Tiered Pokemon that are a cut above the rest because of this two-fold usefulness. The only one that comes close is ADV's Latias / Metagross / Gengar, but I digress; in the ADV metagame, all of these are strong and are at the same time answers to each other, with the dynamics of having HP Fire on Latias forcing players to make the decision to opt into certain lines as early as the teambuilder. Still, Gengar's place in this trio is disputable, as while it does check Metagross a bit with Fire Punch, it also just has a somewhat unfavored match-up into Latias, and overall it comes off as more of a joker card in the ADV metagame thanks to its immunities and coverage rather than an undeniably powerful Pokemon in its own right.
Going back to XY though, Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Gengar are also fundamentally strong Pokemon in a vacuum. The way they are designed, they basically dictate how the game is approached by a player; a Mega Gengar team tends to play in a slower, more trappy style as they aim to leverage Shadow Tag to force bad trades for the opponent, while a Mega Kangaskhan team tends to use their Mega Kangaskhan as the tip of the proverbial spear, using it either to break with its powerful Parental Bond Seismic Toss while its massive bulk for an attacker with that kind of power makes most trades unfair. However, what they lack is the utility in being a check to a massive swathe of Pokemon while being still fundamentally powerful individual threats in the way that Landorus-T, Thundurus, and Volcanion are; they're strong, sure, but they're not typically usable in the same reactive way that LTV can be.
Above are the cumulative usage stats from the recent DPL IX, which features arguably the most tryhard approach to XY DOU teambuilding among any other tour. Yes, that is indeed a
19% gap between Thundurus and Amoonguss—there is a very noticeable divide here, with the only the >50% usage Pokemon being the only ones in current Tier 1. Of course, one of the biggest differences between regular Pokemon and Mega Evolutions are that you can use regular Pokemon (e.g. LTV) on any team, while Megas basically are mutually exclusive with each other for a teamslot, so we can't immediately conclude that Mega Gengar and Mega Kangaskhan are not Tier 1 through these hard numbers. Indeed, Mega Gengar and Mega Kangaskhan were even Tier 1 not too long ago—but there are very real reasons for why they're Tier 2 now, and it can be seen very much in how XY is played at the moment:
- As mentioned, Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Gengar lack the utility of being convenient checks to fundamentally strong Pokemon in the meta, or do not do it to the degree that LTV does.
- People have genuinely gotten better at dealing with Mega Gengar and Mega Kangaskhan. I'm being serious when I say this, because Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Gengar are genuinely broken Pokemon, and dealing with them tends to be really hard. However, the metagame tends to be quite prepared for them now, and everyone typically also knows their lines into them. We're at a point where the ideal ways to deal with the two Megas are quite established, and while they are undeniably powerful, the fact that they don't have the same utility as LTV while being so targeted makes them T2 at most, for now.
- We all already know about Rocky Helmet Amoonguss for Mega Kangaskhan, but a lot of recent developments in the metagame happened with these Megas in mind. AV Conkeldurr is a Mega Kangaskhan counter that MGar itself can't do a dent to; Landorus-T and Volcanion running AV is particularly motivated by the improved Mega Gengar match-up; and MGar + Ferrothorn teams being more real is motivated MGar teams having a suspicious match-up into Crunch Mega Kangaskhan, and if the Ferro is SpDef with Shed Shell (which it can afford) it also gets around be favorable into enemy Mega Gengar. Even a much more recent development, Deoxys-S, is good primarily because of its interesting dynamics with the two; Rocky Helmet means Mega Kangaskhan will feel really bad hitting it, and it's faster than Mega Gengar and can generally OHKO it with Psycho Boost.
- Noticeably, there is actually one more Pokemon, a non-Mega, that's targeted in the same way: Amoonguss, which people run Safety Goggles for. Spore really is just that strong, innit? This is more of a fun observation than anything, but it does give more context to its position as the 4th most used Pokemon in XY DOU,
- Why isn't SM, a Gen with Mega Evoltions, as Mega Evolution-centric? Two reasons: stronger items, and stronger Pokemon. The existence of Z-moves and 50% berries mean there's more power spread out throughout a team, and SM also generally features much more broken Pokemon (Tapus, Inciniroar, Kartana, Kommo-o). Mega Evolutions don't define teambuilding as much when the rest of the team is genuinely up to par with it, rather than being a smudge below in power.
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LTV and the XY DOU Metagame: A Survey
As we've established, LTV is a cut above the rest, and essentially everywhere. We can essentially think of using LTV to compliment teambuilding as a
default approach to the metagame; you're not doing anything exciting, but you're approaching games in a way that generally covers your bases because of the core's synergies with each other and their dynamics with most opposing teams.
However, as much as LTV is everywhere, of course not every team will use it as a core; some only bring two, some even just one. There are two good reasons as to why LTV basically isn't everywhere:
- As strong as the core is, it's still not a monolith. A lot of what makes LTV good is how it goes neutral in the mirror; players can actively decide that going neutral isn't enough, and devise ways to break down the typical meta core. This is fundamental to metagame development, the idea that players will actively try to beat whatever it is that's established to be good. They will try to use specific sets and Pokemon that targets them, and often this comes at the cost of teamslots that would otherwise belong to LTV.
- Some team compositions simply don't work with the entirety of LTV lol.
Indeed, even as I've hyped up LTV to be as strong as they are now, it can't actually fit onto every teamstyle. Not every team in XY DOU is MGar / MKang + LTV + two other goons; there are actually other variations and other viable archetypes out there that can go toe-to-toe with the upper tiers when built properly. In addition, going back to the first point above, not every MGar / MKang player wants to roll up with LTV every game.
Below, I'll giving a short overview of the various archetypes in the metagame, showing various examples of teams choosing to (not) opt into using LTV and trying explain the possible rationale for doing so.
(All teams are public in some form, if not in pastes then through replays. If you want 'em, go find em.)
Mega Kangaskhan variants
- Sample by zee
- Sample by tenzai
- W4 talkingtree vs Grandmascookin, DPL IX
Teams 1 and 2 are actually the two Mega Kangaskhan sample teams, and one notably has the entirety of LTV and the other without. Team 1 is basically the most default approach you can take when playing XY; this is a comp that has lasted the test of time because of how fundamentally solid the team is. The team essentially leverage the ability of LTV to neutralize most match-ups, while Mega Kangaskhan and Amoonguss are there to make space for a CM Sylveon win. Team 3 shows a different, relative less standard flavor of LTV MKang, instead taking a more aggressive approach with Kyurem-B being a good XY DOU Pokemon purely because of how it can eviscerate opposing LTVs. Due to a lack of a dedicated wincon with no CM Sylveon in tow, LTV here instead can be played more aggressively, especially considering Deoxys-A offers immense pressure and Kyurem-B itself is a more threatening pivot than Amoonguss.
Team 2, meanwhile, takes a much more aggressive approach to XY DOU; eschewing the defensive play LTV offers, it instead opts to give opposing teams no space to breath. Even then, opposing LTV is still answered if you look at the team's individual match-ups; Keldeo capably marks Volcanion and Landorus-T, while Deoxys-A and Ferrothorn match up to Thundurus in their respective ways, for example. Mega Kangaskhan still takes the same role as a space-creating tanky beatstick, but the overall build is more about being more punishing to switch into and winning trades through the raw power and coverage which LTV doesn't necessarily provide.
Mega Gengar variants
- Sample by zee
- Sample by Memoric
- W5 Memoric vs zee, DPL IX
- W1 KyleCole vs yuichi, DPL IX
Teams 1 and 2 are the default MGar approaches, with different slot 2s and 3s. Both teams use LTV to have a good neutral game against most teams, with their pivoty nature also just generally working well with Shadow Tag. The difference in 2s and 3s really does boil down to a playstyle thing, with TerraCott allowing for more explosiveness, while Conkeldurr / Ferrothorn being more about making sure every trade taken is a winning one. Team 3 is a variant that uses Gastrodon to be better into opposing LTV, with the Gastrodon even boasting significant Defense investment to be better into Landorus-T. Diancie makes up for the attacking role that Volcanion usually has by spamming Diamond Storm.
Team 4 is a more ballsy variant which even eschews Landorus-T and Prankster TWave altogether. Heatran is a more aggressive Fire-type which, compared to Volcanion, is also worse into LTV. Thundurus-T is here because it beats Thundurus capably, at the cost of not having Prankster TWave;
I even wrote a whole DPL IX Oldtech about it. Scrafty provides Intimidate much like Landorus-T, though it trades a lot of what makes Lando-T good (the spread EQ and the Ground immunity) to be able to provide Fake Out. The team is overall worse into opposing Landorus-T due to dropping their own Landorus-T, but the apparent idea is to leverage TeraCott + Mega Gengar in order to essentially make up for it.
Mega Manectric variants
- Sample by stax
- W4 SingleThunder vs Yellow Paint, DPL IX
Mega Manectric teams tend to not run the entirety of LTV, obviously because Mega Manectric is already an Electric-type in the team composition and stacking Electrics tends to be no bueno. That aside, Team 1 then essentially has the Mega Manectric version of LTV, with Mega Manectric / Volcanion / Landorus-T; Prankster Thunder Wave's best target has always been Mega Gengar and then Mega Salamence, both of which are still checked by Mega Manectric. The other three slots, though, are then about not losing to Deoxys-A and Landorus-T, two threats that Prankster Thundurus typically checks. The stax sample answers this through the use of CB Genesect / BoltBeam Porygon2, with the Sylveon there as a wincon that leverages the team's double Intimidate.
Team 2 follows a similar style, still having Sylveon for a MMane comp. However, it instead employs a more CM Sylveon-centric, trappy playstyle, with Gothitelle and Conkeldurr there to generate picks on key Steels (Ferrothorn, Bisharp) and Volcanions. The team is actually overall worse into Landorus-T and Deoxys-A as a result, having less pieces that can directly answer the two. I don't necessarily like the team but what it's trying to do is apparent.
Mega Gardevoir variants
- Sample by Memoric
- W4 Memoric vs Mako, DPL IX
- W3 Shadowmonstr7, ORASPL (Arcticblast support)
When it comes to Mega Gardevoir comps, you are more likely to find the double redirection + CM variants running around as it's generally more consistent and has the better track record. The team structure for it is also incredibly easy to decpiher: CM Mega Gardevoir / Two Redirectors / LTV Defensive Backbone. Two redirectors are there in order to virtually guarantee Mega Gardevoir has the required space to win the game, and the LTV defensive backbone (or parts of it) is essentially the best anyone can get with regards to a tried-and-true defensive backbone with a reliable ability to go neutral even in the worst case scenario. Team 2's variations are basically about having Blastoise over Togekiss for a different set of weaknesses and resistances (better into Bisharp and Volcanion, for example), with Hydreigon over Volcanion there to not stack Water-types. It's running Fire Blast, so it can still check Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor for Mega Gardevoir as needed.
Mega Gardevoir Tailwind has seen use, though! Mega Gardevoir is still powerful unboosted, and this team aims to leverage that by aiming to give it the Speed advantage. LTV still has strong offensive utility between Landorus-T's spread EQs, Volcanion's STABs, and Thundurus's great neutral coverage, so even in a more offensive-inclined variant, they're still chosen for being great offensive pieces in their own right in addition to already being stellar defensive answers.
Mega Salamence variants
- Memoric, various tournaments
- W6 talkingtree vs Mako, DPL IX
- W2 GrandmasCookin vs Mako, DPL IX
- W2 Mako vs GrandmasCookin, DPL IX
Mega Salamence has notable synergy with Earthquake-spamming Ground-types, its reintroduction to the metgame filling a void that Mega Charizard Y now seems wholly inadequate for. In particular, its Dragon-typing makes it great at covering the Ground-type teammate's weakness to Water-type attacks, such as Steam Eruption, and it's good at matching Volcanion in general. Thus, it makes sense that Landorus-T and Excadrill shine as particularly ideal teammates. Slot 3 is generally Thundurus, though Togekiss is here instead on Team 4 to instead aim to more actively make space for Excadrill. The presence of Mega Salamence, itself also a great check to Landorus-T, means that Thundurus will not be as missed as it often is. Slot 4 is for the Fire-type / Fairy resistance of the comp, with only Team 4 aiming to go with Heatran to make space for the Gastrodon. 3 out of 4 teams notably feature a Dark-type; of course, the two Tyranitars are there to enable Excadrill, but even Team 1 has a Bisharp. This slot, while a bit of a wildcard, is generally there to have a better match-up into Mega Gengar, which Mega Salamence has to be wary of due to Shadow Tag easily enabling picks through Mega Salamence's 4x weakness to Ice. Last slot features 3 of 4 Conkeldurr, and this is mostly to match Mega Kangaskhan as Mega Salamence actually can't use its massive stats against it (due to Seismic Toss) and thus itself only has losing trades. Team 4 has Gastrodon to further provide Water-type hate, though the fact that the team is so lacking into Mega Kangaskhan as a result makes the team feel dubious.
Mega Swampert / Rain variants
- Sample by EVERYONE!!!
- W5 Mako vs Yellow Paint, DPL IX
Let's make this immediately clear: Mega Swampert is the sole reason to use rain in XY DOU. As for why, it's because it's a physical attacker that Landorus-T can't easily switch into, it's an HO attacker that can't be Prankster Thunder Waved, and it beats Volcanion with Earthquake—in short, it has the ability to favorably pressure if not beat LTV all by itself. That, and also the fact that Kingdra is really REALLY bad in XY DOU, because you can't Muddy Water spam in a metagame where Volcanion is the kingpin.
Now that's out of the way, rain as an archetype doesn't use Landorus-T because they already have Mega Swampert to check Landorus-T. It also doesn't run Volcanion, because it's a Fire-type lol. Among LTV, rain only actually runs Thundurus, as not only is Prankster Thunder Wave still great utility, rain also enables a more offensive approach with Thundurus by providing Thunder 100% accuracy. Slots 3 and 4 are the obligatory Politoed and Ludicolo; Ludicolo is generally more favored over Kingdra because of its access to Fake Out and its better match-up into Volcanion (not being a Fairy weakness and being a Grass-type for Amoonguss helps, too). Slot 5 features the strong priority attacker, the kind that can also break down specific threats with high-powered attacks to keep the ball rolling. Lastly, slot 6 is essentially the utility slot, with the sample opting to go into oonga-boonga HO, while Team 2 instead opts for Gothitelle, which has better synergy with Genesect and provides additional utility in being an actual relatively bulky piece in an HO team that can also potentially Taunt opposing Amoonguss as needed.
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Closing
If you read the whole thing, good job I guess! As I've established, LTV is quite the ubiquitous presence in the modern XY DOU metagame. As much as there are other viable alternatives out there, LTV really is the old reliable of the XY metagame; the pairing of Genies has been viable since time immemorial, while Volcanion's reign of terror also shows no signs of losing steam anytime soon. As strong as wincon buildarounds Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Gengar are as individual Pokemon, they also don't have the same level of utility that the pieces of LTV offer to teams, which make them a Tier below for most.
What are your thoughts on this? Anything you disagree with, or want to add to? Is there anything that we're missing that can contest LTV's place in the metagame? Hopefully we'll get to see new builds and ideas that rise to the challenge this Homefield (and if not, in DPL). There is even already a metagame shakeup currently underway, after all!
To see the new updated VR with these changes in effect, please see the second post on this thread!
so I knew I had to cook hard in XY to make up for it......
bad timing I suppose... It's nice vs 
is very cringe. Which SMB tried to do here 
)
