XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]

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haunter

Banned deucer.
#1
The OU Tiering Council, in the process of achieving a balanced and desirable metagame, has decided to suspect test the strategy known as full Baton Pass chains.

At the end of the testing period, qualified players will be asked to choose one of the following options:
  1. Do nothing and keep the metagame as it is;
  2. Forbid the use of the move Baton Pass on more than 3 Pokémon on the same team (complex ban);
  3. Ban the combination of the move Baton Pass in conjunction with the ability Magic Bounce and the ability Speed Boost (complex ban).

Rather than testing the move Baton Pass, that we believe has legit uses outside of full Baton Pass chains, we decided to suggest a complex ban in order to nerf the strategy.

Remember to abuse full Baton Pass chains as much as you can, in order to have an informed opinion on the topic.

Those who're interested into obtaining voting rights will be required to qualify on the OU (Suspect Test) ladder (which is being implemented right now), achieving a COIL rating of 2700 or more. However, do note that we reserve the right to change the requirements, according to the results of the first week of testing. The test will last approximately 2 weeks starting from when the ladder is up.

If you have any question regarding this suspect test, then feel free to private message one of: Aldaron, McMeghan, M Dragon, Nachos and myself. Don't ask questions in this thread.

After the overall positive experience of the last pre-suspect discussion thread, I'm going to post this thread in the general metagame discussion forum, to give everyone the opportunity to weigh in. However, if people start to flood the thread with dumb posts, I'll have to move it to Victory Road.

The same zero-tolerance policy applies here:
  1. Users who attempt to troll this thread will be immediately banned without any prior warning (this applies specifically to newly registered accounts);
  2. If you have no knowledge (or next to no knowledge) of the game at high level of play (be it the top of the ladder of official tournaments) then you're not supposed to post in this thread. I don't want to see one-liners or uninformed posts;
  3. You're required to make civil posts and accept criticism from those who disagree with you;
  4. You're absolutely not allowed to discuss or question the tiering process and its current implementation.
Good luck everybody.
 
#2
Ah, finally, baton pass.
Pretty much baton pass has a few hard counters; most of the time you'll know if you've already lost simply from team matchup. Is it healthy for the metagame? It's not too bad, but the bigger issue is that it makes playing the game rather boring. BP will always play the same way, and you're always going to fight BP the same way (assuming you have a way to deal with it).

If I make reqs, I'm gonna vote for: Forbid the use of the move Baton Pass on more than 3 Pokémon on the same team team (complex ban);

Why? Simply because I don't believe we should nerf espeon and scolipede directly. If you think about it, baton pass (the move) has nothing to do with magic bounce at all; it's only broken in full baton pass chains due to the nature of baton pass chains; by itself magic bounce + baton pass is perfectly fine. Espeon should keep its little niche as an anti-lead screens user that can escape pursuit.

Same with scolipede. Speed boost + baton pass is great, but it's by no means broken.

Letting espeon and scolipede keep their little niches is just a small detail that enriches the metagame just a little bit. Setting the limit of baton pass users to 3 Pokemon is a perfectly viable solution.
 
#3
Question about option 3.

Does this mean baton pass is only banned from your team if you have both a speed boost user AND a magic bouncer? Or does it mean baton pass is only banned on the pokemon with those abilities? Do you have to have both of them in your team for the ban to count or can you still not have baton pass if you only have one of them?
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
#4
Question about option 3.

Does this mean baton pass is only banned from your team if you have both a speed boost user AND a magic bouncer? Or does it mean baton pass is only banned on the pokemon with those abilities? Do you have to have both of them in your team for the ban to count or can you still not have baton pass if you only have one of them?
[11.49.07] <aldaron> you just arent allowed to make a team
[11.49.24] <aldaron> with pokemon who have speed bost and bp
[11.49.29] <aldaron> or magic bounce and bp
 
#7
I am thinking the 2nd option is most desirable. For the simple reason that the 3rd option negates using something like a lone Baton Pass Speed Boost Scolipede, a Baton Pass Magic Bounce Espeon to escape Pursuit. I don't think that is what you really want from the result of this ban. You want to tackle the chains, and you do that by limiting the number of Pokemon on a team that can have Baton Pass to 3.
 
#9
If I have the time to make reqs, I am definately voting for Option 2. As far as BP goes, it needs a minimum of 4 members to destroy the metagame so three was logically the best choice. As for anyone who still thinks BP isn't broken, try beating BP even if you have an effective "counter" (i.e. Taunt Thund-I BP Imprison Musharna). I guarantee you will either, with a ton of difficulty, beat it or you will end up getting wrecked and, through sheer frustration, forfeiting, though not before hurling some mother related insults.
 
#10
If I have the time to make reqs, I am definately voting for Option 2. As far as BP goes, it needs a minimum of 4 members to destroy the metagame so three was logically the best choice. As for anyone who still thinks BP isn't broken, try beating BP even if you have an effective "counter" (i.e. Taunt Thund-I BP Imprison Musharna). I guarantee you will either, with a ton of difficulty, beat it or you will end up getting wrecked and, through sheer frustration, forfeiting, though not before hurling some mother related insults.
Your team normally either matches up well against BP, or flat out loses - where does the 'beat it with a ton of difficulty' ever come in?
 
#11
Though I'm happy to see a ban for baton pass albeit a complex ban, at higher level elo i begin to see a pattern with heavy stall teams mega venu quaggy mandi chancey and a lot of baton pass teams and they are very hard to beat with a very standard all around balanced team, hyper offensive used to be my answer but atleast now there will be a curb to the brokenness that is baton pass teams
 
#12
  1. Forbid the use of the move Baton Pass on more than 3 Pokémon on the same team team (complex ban)

Pretty simple, do not ban stuff like BP Scolipede that have legitimate uses outside of the playstyle. I would have voted for number 3 if it meant banning Speed Boost, Magic Bounce AND BP instead of one of the two ability combos on the same team, but these were the options we were given.

I personally think BP in its essence is a legitmate playstyle and that a nerf, removing the parts the made it broken is sufficient to allow it to return and try to compete with the other viable OU playstyles. Option 2 will most likely kill it off but that's better than nerfing Scolipede, at least in my book.
 
#13
Your team normally either matches up well against BP, or flat out loses - where does the 'beat it with a ton of difficulty' ever come in?
There is no true "Counter" to BP. Even with something like Taunt Thund-I, you will still have difficulty beating the chain. You're not technically stopping BP with taunt/haze, just prolonging a long and frustrating battle.
 
#14
Hah, it's kind of amusing to me seeing us finally bring this to the table when it was clear to a (not small) group of players that this strategy was broken even in BW. I mean sure, fairies (Sylveon), Mega Scizor (and even Mega Mawile), and Scollipede > Ninjask make this strategy much more serious, but honestly the necessary tools to make the broken baton pass team work (Speed Boost and Espeon) are there in BW(2?), and have the same bad impact there.

The problem with BP is that it's a win condition so different from any other (and not so much about its actual effectiveness). Sure, it almost auto-loses to Prankster Taunt and has a really hard time overcoming Haze, but those two tools are both so niche that they're just not going to be seen frequently enough, and we can't expect players to carry them either. It doesn't matter what the actual win rate of BP teams are-- the problem is that they change the rules of the game in a way it's unreasonable to prepare for while also building for efficiency against other more typical teams (Stall and Heavy Offense are more alike than either is to full BP... as is dealing with them).

I won't be able to participate in the test, and I can't even promise my fellow mods I'll be helping a whole lot manage this thread due to personal obligations right now, but I'm pretty sure justice will be surved.

vote for option 2 guys
 
#15
There is no true "Counter" to BP. Even with something like Taunt Thund-I, you will still have difficulty beating the chain. You're not technically stopping BP with taunt/haze, just prolonging a long and frustrating battle.
We've had this discussion before. There's no true "Counter" to Offense or Stall or any other playstyle either. There doesn't need to be. As long as there are things which are very effective against them and greatly increase your ability to be able to beat them (which there are), then that's all you need. (And by the way, Shedinja actually is a true counter to standard BP teams. Yeah, it's mediocre against everything else but that's not the point. The point is, one does exist).

And, Haze can certainly be effective against BP, and does make you progress when done right. BP has to sacrifice a lot of HP from its members in order to get the boosts needed to be able to sweep. Simply hitting them hard and frequently to wear their members down, then Hazing away the precious boosts they have obtained means you have erased all the work they have done, but their pokemon are now all in a state of low health and with no defensive boosts to prevent them from being easily picked off from there.

Glad this suspect test is finally happening though, we need some closure on the matter.
 
#16
We've had this discussion before. There's no true "Counter" to Offense or Stall or any other playstyle either. There doesn't need to be. As long as there are things which are very effective against them and greatly increase your ability to be able to beat them (which there are), then that's all you need. (And by the way, Shedinja actually is a true counter to standard BP teams. Yeah, it's mediocre against everything else but that's not the point. The point is, one does exist).

And, Haze can certainly be effective against BP, and does make you progress when done right. BP has to sacrifice a lot of HP from its members in order to get the boosts needed to be able to sweep. Simply hitting them hard and frequently to wear their members down, then Hazing away the precious boosts they have obtained means you have erased all the work they have done, but their pokemon are now all in a state of low health and with no defensive boosts to prevent them from being easily picked off from there.

Glad this suspect test is finally happening though, we need some closure on the matter.
I almost treat BP as a kind of "Super Mon" with 6 abilities, 21 moveslots, and a gigantic movepool. On that line of thought, it is different from any other playstyle and should be treated as a pokemon, who do have checks and counters, rather than a playstyle, which does not. Also, like was mentioned countless times in the other forum, Haze and Prankster Taunt dont work well. Quag gets 2hko'd by Sylveon Hyper Voice and cannot take a stored power after the opponent has 6 boosts in any stat (Haze Greninja beats Espeon I guess but gets murdered by Sylv). It works in theory but in practice it doesn't. And don't you dare say "They can just switch out" because how the fuck are they supposed to stop the boosts if they cannot switch in and cannot take 2 hits.

And regarding Shedninja, shadow ball exists, last time I checked both Espeon and Sylveon learn it so no, Shedninja not a counter.
 
#17
I'm going to join the chorus supporting option 2. Forbid the use of the move Baton Pass on more than 3 Pokémon on the same team team (complex ban).

The philosophy of a ban like this (or any ban, really) is to be surgical in removing the harmful matter from the metagame while minimally affecting all possibilities that aren't harmful. Pokemon is a game that is more fun the more viable options there are in teambuilding, so the community should do everything it can not to throw out babies with uncompetitive bathwater. That's what we would be doing if we chose option 3.

I have used a Baton Pass Scolipede plenty without any boosting moves. It is supposed to either sweep with it's Life Orb or Pass speed to a teammate - especially a bulky wallbreaker. To be denied the option to use that set when it has nothing to do with full Baton Pass teams by itself would be terribly clumsy metagame management. While I do want to see Baton Pass teams nerfed, I would rather leave them be than have such an imprecise ban.

But option 2. does exactly what a ban is supposed to do. It precisely targets people using full BP teams. It is almost impossible that anyone who is trying to build a team with four Pokemon with Baton Pass is doing anything other than building a Baton Pass team. Therefore the ban will only affect the target problem while leaving other valid strategies entirely alone.

In summary: option 2. would be great. Option 1. I could live with. But option 3. should be avoided like the plague in my opinion.
 
#18
Baton Pass is a strategy that most people never prepare for or slap a phazer/Unaware user on their team and call it countered. Sometimes that is all it takes but it can be a pain in the ass to deal with when a competent player is wielding a BP team. It is the strategy I dislike the most when I get a glimpse of team preview because I already know exactly how things are going to play out and sometimes can't do anything to stop it. With that said, I would probably vote for the first option as it stands now, but may sway towards the second option if I feel full BP teams are too noncompetitive to handle. Priority moves have had a huge influence on the metagame so far in XY where as last gen it was about being super fast without priority moves. Scolipede is a nice new tool for BP teams but I don't think it was something that pushed Baton Pass over the edge.
 
#19
And so it begins. Again. Well, this is gonna be fun.
And while I'm not about to write an essay about which option I would choose if I made Reqs (I'm not the best battler), I do agree that BP needs to be nerfed in some way (Namely option 2) and that it's kinda broken (Not in the dice roll SwagPlay way, more like Blaziken Speed Boost shenanigans way)
And good god it took long enough. But it makes me wonder what new "Broken" strategy will rise from the ashes of Baton Pass and SwagPlay. It does make me wonder... (I'm also betting this thread is going to shit like the other Suspect Test threads, but I may be wrong is time, even if I've seen 2 new accounts post here at the same time. I'm not a elitist or anything but.... It seems off)
 
#20
I heard Baton Pass summed up quite well recently, I can't recall exactly where, but essentially it is a machine. Full BP teams basically run themselves, and while they do take more skill to use than, say, swagplay, it arguably removes the opponents ability to "outplay" the player using BP. This is different to any other "bad match up" because it takes the match up to the extreme. If I get reqs I'm looking at option B as the stand out choice. Should be an interesting test
 
#21
2. Forbid the use of the move Baton Pass on more than 3 Pokémon on the same team team (complex ban)
Personally, I feel BP shouldn't be banned completely. I feel a clause is necessary to help the metagame. And trust me, I have seen BP team after BP team, and I feel those people are just plain asshats. Some of them taunt there opponents (not saying names), saying that full BP teams are the best teams.
If this clause is put in, pokemon that are reliant on BPass can still stay somewhat viable (looking at you Espeon), while the metagame can be more balanced. I feel this clause can make a lot of people who actually use tactics OTHER than BP could be happier. This can also have BP users have half of their team for BPass, while the other half could be sweepers, making THEIR teams more balanced.
 
#22
Option 2:Forbid the use of the move Baton Pass on more than 3 Pokémon on the same team
This seems to be the best option since having a full baton chain isn't possible without more than three baton passers option 3 is also a good option but that eliminates small baton chains such as speed boost protect than pass which isn't broken in any way.In a nutshell option two nerfs the issue at hand and does not limit the use of baton pass completely as option three would essentially do, but as I play through the suspect play test I'll keep my eye out but most likely my opinion will stay the same since I have been dealing with baton pass a little bit before this suspect.
 
#23
  • Do nothing and keep the metagame as it is;

Well, this is a possibility. Baton Pass is, in my opinion, somewhat broken simply because of Scolipede and Espeon, who together can more or less do everything they need to (well, those 2 together are the most important)

  • Forbid the use of the move Baton Pass on more than 3 Pokémon on the same team (complex ban);

Even though this is a complex ban, it is the best solution as non full Baton Pass chains are not broken. When I get reqs, this is most likely what I will be voting for.

  • Ban the combination of the move Baton Pass in conjunction with the ability Magic Bounce and the ability Speed Boost (complex ban).

Ok, this was almost what I would have voted for, but Baton Pass has legitimate use on Espeon to escape Pursuit, and it is just not worth it to affect a viable strategy in this case, when there is a better solution.

I will give more thoughts later, but for now I would like to know the general consensus outside VR about the other use of Baton Pass, mainly escaping Pursuit.
 

SpaceBass

The world isnt one big liberal arts college campus
is a Battle Server Moderatoris a Contributor Alumnus
#24
Been using BP for a while, I don't think people appreciate just how hit and miss it is. A crit 90% of the time demolishes the chain, I refuse to counter taunt when I use BP as thats my counter and I don't want to be an ass.

I think it should be left as it is because I rarely encountered BP teams playing OU, when I did, I managed to stop it with no frustration or preparation. I only started using it to show someone what I was talking about. It's not a widespread enough problem. Prankster or mould breaker stop it completely. At leas thats what I've found.

I haven't got any replays of when I lose using BP but when I do I lose hard. Talonflame, Kelfki and sandstorm Excadrill are all things I've been countered by. I even got killed by a shadow sneak mega Banette earlier.

I'm starting to play the OU-ST ladder now so hopefully I can vote.
 
#25
Been using BP for a while, I don't think people appreciate just how hit and miss it is. A crit 90% of the time demolishes the chain, I refuse to counter taunt when I use BP as thats my counter and I don't want to be an ass.

I think it should be left as it is because I rarely encountered BP teams playing OU, when I did, I managed to stop it with no frustration or preparation. I only started using it to show someone what I was talking about. It's not a widespread enough problem. Prankster or mould breaker stop it completely. At leas thats what I've found.

I haven't got any replays of when I lose using BP but when I do I lose hard. Talonflame, Kelfki and sandstorm Excadrill are all things I've been countered by. I even got killed by a shadow sneak mega Banette earlier.

I'm starting to play the OU-ST ladder now so hopefully I can vote.
Ok

Was the team Scolipede/Espeon/Sylveon/Vaporeon/Smeargle/Mr.Mime or Zapdos? Because that shit is EVERYWHERE at the top of the ladder, and it takes A LOT of preparation to beat.(I'll give its overprepared for, but that just shows how unhealthy it is.) And a crit is LITERALLY the only way an unprepared team beats BP, its so fucking broken. I ask that you look at http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/genius-pass-standard-baton-pass-chain.3506272/ , it shows how you are SUPPOSED to build BP. Not going to bother laddering for reqs because I KNOW its going to be nerfed its so blatantly broken. it's so incredibly match up reliant, and thus halts the development of the metagame. Please, reconsider your option.
 
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