Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

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Nominating Darmanitan for C+/B-

Alright, Darmanitan has terrible defenses, above average HP, average speed (Good enough for wall breaking), but holy shit 140 base atk combined with Sheer Force affecting it's base 120 move, attach Life Orb / Choice Band for more damage and you can 2HKO everything that resists.

Darm's Flare Blitz: 120 x 1.3 x 1.5 : 234 base move coming off base 140 Atk

Victini's V-Create: 180 x 1.5 : 270 base move coming off base 100 atk

Who wins?

Let the calcs for the talking:

Choice Scarf Jolly:

252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 308-366 (92.2 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 282-332 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And V-Create > Flare Blitz in recoil, I'd rather take so much recoil (which actually takes it pretty well w/ base 105 HP) than lose, Speed, Defense, AND Special Defense, which is literally hit-and-run, but Darmanitan doesn't care, it'll die from recoil, but at least gives you minimum 1 death.

And the following is actually pretty interesting:

252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 357-421 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 348-411 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Hit harder than Kyurem-B's Adamant outrage with a Jolly Nature? Check! Have the same speed as it? Check! Not be locked if you are running non-choice? Check! Have as much bulk as Kyurem-B? hell no. Have much better coverage? Check!

Darmanitan is vulnerable to all kinds of hazards, which sucks, and to add to it, Darmanitan will die to an Adamant CB Talonflame's BB

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 379-447 (107.9 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But it still has a 87.5% chance of surviving a Life Orb Jolly BB, which is honestly the most common. It does die to Aqua Jet, but at least, it does resist Bullet Punch. It does not die to Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack, NOR Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch.

Scarf Darmanitan is also a check (not a counter) for a lot of pokemons: Charizard Y, Mega Luc, Genesect, Ferrothorn (can check), Forretress (can check), Excadrill, Mega Pinsir, Aegislash, Thundurus, Landorus, Scizor & Mega, Mega Mawile, Bisharp, and all of stuff.

I also want to know one single pokemon that can switch in on CB Darmanitan other than Slowking.

Darmanitan 2HKO-es the following (Without a boosting item & a jolly nature): Chansey, Specially defensive Mandibuzz (Physically defensive gets 2HKOed if SR are up or you have LO/CB or Adamant Nature) , Skarmory (OHKO if sturdy is not intact), Tangrowth (OHKO w/ Rocks/LO/CB/Adamant nature), Umbreon: the physical walls of OU.




Darminatan also gets Rock Slide, great addition to Sheer Force, U-Turn always keeps momentum, and finally EQ or Superpower for coverage.

Darmanitan does have a problem with priority, speed, hazards, and Slowking, it also lacks priority and is not that versatile, on the bright side it is immune to burn, but it isn't that great. Darmanitan also needs support from Defog/RS, to walls for switches (if you are locked b/c of choice item), and other things such as a Slowking murderer.

Darmanitan is a Slow, pretty frail, nuke, but emphasis on nuke, big one. And for those reasons, I'm nominating it for C+/B- (Personally the latter)
 
In an effort to change the topic, I would like to present Weavile to the discussion as it is not currently ranked while having an OU analysis. I do not know much of it other than it receiving Icicle Crash this generation and said move being incompatible with Knock Off.

So without me rambling bout a Pokémon I don't know much about, I'll leave the discussion up to yall.
 
In an effort to change the topic, I would like to present Weavile to the discussion as it is not currently ranked while having an OU analysis. I do not know much of it other than it receiving Icicle Crash this generation and said move being incompatible with Knock Off.

So without me rambling bout a Pokémon I don't know much about, I'll leave the discussion up to yall.
It's frailty leaves a lot to be desired. However, it does have I believe 120/125 in attack and speed making it very fast, and with low sweep, ice shard, knock, and a coverage or more powerful STAB attack it can pull its weight. It could be the answer to fairy types as well as dragons, but it fails to defeat any fairy 1 v 1 so... Less dragons = less need for the dragon slayer
 
It's frailty leaves a lot to be desired. However, it does have I believe 120/125 in attack and speed making it very fast, and with low sweep, ice shard, knock, and a coverage or more powerful STAB attack it can pull its weight. It could be the answer to fairy types as well as dragons, but it fails to defeat any fairy 1 v 1 so... Less dragons = less need for the dragon slayer
Its not the perfect discussion but the best I could think of without reposting my Crobat idea for the third time (XD). Needed something to get distracted.
 
Nominating Darmanitan for C+/B-

Alright, Darmanitan has terrible defenses, above average HP, average speed (Good enough for wall breaking), but holy shit 140 base atk combined with Sheer Force affecting it's base 120 move, attach Life Orb / Choice Band for more damage and you can 2HKO everything that resists.

Darm's Flare Blitz: 120 x 1.3 x 1.5 : 234 base move coming off base 140 Atk

Victini's V-Create: 180 x 1.5 : 270 base move coming off base 100 atk

Who wins?

Let the calcs for the talking:

Choice Scarf Jolly:

252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 308-366 (92.2 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 282-332 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And V-Create > Flare Blitz in recoil, I'd rather take so much recoil (which actually takes it pretty well w/ base 105 HP) than lose, Speed, Defense, AND Special Defense, which is literally hit-and-run, but Darmanitan doesn't care, it'll die from recoil, but at least gives you minimum 1 death.

And the following is actually pretty interesting:

252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 357-421 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 348-411 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Hit harder than Kyurem-B's Adamant outrage with a Jolly Nature? Check! Have the same speed as it? Check! Not be locked if you are running non-choice? Check! Have as much bulk as Kyurem-B? hell no. Have much better coverage? Check!

Darmanitan is vulnerable to all kinds of hazards, which sucks, and to add to it, Darmanitan will die to an Adamant CB Talonflame's BB

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 379-447 (107.9 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But it still has a 87.5% chance of surviving a Life Orb Jolly BB, which is honestly the most common. It does die to Aqua Jet, but at least, it does resist Bullet Punch. It does not die to Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack, NOR Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch.

Scarf Darmanitan is also a check (not a counter) for a lot of pokemons: Charizard Y, Mega Luc, Genesect, Ferrothorn (can check), Forretress (can check), Excadrill, Mega Pinsir, Aegislash, Thundurus, Landorus, Scizor & Mega, Mega Mawile, Bisharp, and all of stuff.

I also want to know one single pokemon that can switch in on CB Darmanitan other than Slowking.

Darmanitan 2HKO-es the following (Without a boosting item & a jolly nature): Chansey, Specially defensive Mandibuzz (Physically defensive gets 2HKOed if SR are up or you have LO/CB or Adamant Nature) , Skarmory (OHKO if sturdy is not intact), Tangrowth (OHKO w/ Rocks/LO/CB/Adamant nature), Umbreon: the physical walls of OU.




Darminatan also gets Rock Slide, great addition to Sheer Force, U-Turn always keeps momentum, and finally EQ or Superpower for coverage.

Darmanitan does have a problem with priority, speed, hazards, and Slowking, it also lacks priority and is not that versatile, on the bright side it is immune to burn, but it isn't that great. Darmanitan also needs support from Defog/RS, to walls for switches (if you are locked b/c of choice item), and other things such as a Slowking murderer.

Darmanitan is a Slow, pretty frail, nuke, but emphasis on nuke, big one. And for those reasons, I'm nominating it for C+/B- (Personally the latter)
Why do my posts always end up on bottom page.
 
Neither Crawdaunt nor Mega Abomasnow belong in C-rank. Neither need a special amount of support to be effective in OU and their flaws are not crippling. Both belong in the middle of the B rank.

Crawdaunt is very often a win condition as its powerful Aqua Jet does a great job at late-game cleaning, and its other moves wallbreak most of the defensive metagame, which practically ensures an important role for it in any match you end up in. It is not eclipsed by Azumarill, as was - I think - demonstrated in its thread on this forum so I would refer anyone to that extended debate. Its ability to carry out the two roles I mentioned so consistently makes it very out of place in its current rank of C+.

Mega Abomasnow's unique offensive STAB combo and extensive movepool and mixed offensive stats mean that virtually nothing in the tier can safely switch into it if all viable possibilities are taken into account. That same typing might seem like a crippling flaw due to its many weaknesses but resistance to water, electric, grass, and ground provide a surprising number of opportunities and its bulk allows it to take neutral hits in stride. Plus it has the pleasure of switching into Spores, Sleep Powders, and Leech Seeds for free. The only support it really depends on is Defog/RS but that is true of some of the top threats in the tier as well.
 
I know we had at least discussed this think once before and decided B- or C ranking (too long ago) for just the availability of Sun Nuking gone but he is still one of the best Flare Blitz users in game (May be stronger than Char, but lacks the recovery and speed to abuse it as well as he does).

252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 172-204 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Course that is probably one of the best (in my opinion, the best) walls in the OU tier. Not being able to 2HKO that thing isn't that bad but he comes damn close with scarf. Course I only mention him because ya forgot the mighty Hippo. :D

He has many a great coverage moves, but his only draw back, is that he is often, predictable as a Choice set is almost guaranteed. He is a lot stronger than he has any right to be, but he does so with big goofy grin on his face. What more is there to ask of a B- to C rank pokemon?
 

Srn

The Monstrous Bird of New England
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Ok guys for fucks sake, you can't nominate pokes to be blacklisted. But seeing as how all everyone does is bring donphan up and hate on it, it will probably be blacklisted anyways, even though I fail to see how excadrill comepletly outclassed it. But I digress

Anyone use much kyurem black lately? I'm thinking its a solid A+ or EVEN S. Literally everything has been going good for kyub this gen. Fighting types are no longer the dominant force and the metagame has slowed down comepletly. And kyurem does one job better than almost any poke in the game. Breaking stall. Unlike crobat, who stops stall almost elegantly, kyurem black literally decks stall in the face with a hammer. The fairies hardly have effected kyurem besides gardevoir and sylveon, and I think the fact that a mon that single handily counters a quickly becoming common playstyle is a huge merit, and it honestly doesn't require that much team support in the first place
[/quote]

I am definitely sticking up as many thumbs as I can to this post. Honestly, I find myself sticking a kyu-b where I used to stick on a rotom-w on my teams these days, and it works miracles. It breaks through rotom-w/lando-t and venutran cores like butter. The only thing on stall teams that even stops this thing is chansey, and I remember, once I had to rely on his 101 hp subs to outstall the few seismic tosses and toxics that chansey had left to open up a volcorona sweep to win a 132 turn long battle. Kyu-b is outright amazing I swear. With max speed and a positive nature you can nuke lucario with an earth power before mega-evo (not gonna be relevant anymore but w/e) and hit up mega garchomp with an ice beam, among many, many other pokemon. It's just a great poke that has everything except for the existence of pixilate hyper voice going for it this gen.

if thats true, how do u explain donphans high usage? I somewhat doubt that its mere popularity like in charizards case during the last 5 gens...
Donphan is popular because it fills in so many holes made from bad teambuilding. It covers the role of hazards control, possible phazer, priority, it just has a great amount of utility. All these tools give inexperienced players the illusion that donphan is a great pokemon, and they find themselves sticking on teams because it frees up teamslots. Donphan's wide array of utility just straight up frees teamslots. That's why it was so popular.

His physical bulk gives him plenty of opportunitys to set sr or spin. Honestly he can switch in on almost every physical threat take the hit and do what he wants afterwards. He doesnt need any speed. As long as u dont try to spin on keldeo without sturdy ready u can be pretty sure that he will get his job done.
LOL

Honestly he can switch in on almost every physical threat take the hit and do what he wants afterwards.
That's gold right there

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 177-208 (46 - 54.1%) -- 4.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 225-265 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 180-214 (46.8 - 55.7%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 380-447 (98.9 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 306-360 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

He doesn't have any form of recovery either.

Thats kinda ironic. That exacdrill lacks donphans bulk is fine because "he is not meant to be a bulky spinner". Did it never cross ur mind that donphan is not meant to be an offensive spinner and therefore cant be outclassed by excadrill? Its the exact same argument.
That whole discussion here leaves me with the impression that most ppl here think every spinner has to be an offensive one and that there is nothing else.
You know what's the problem here? Offensive spinners are better. There is no defensive spinner out there with reliable recovery (I consider starmie offensive). The meta is offensive and when you can threaten something out and spin on the switch, you're much better off then taking 40% or so just to get rid of hazards once. It's not that we think there's nothing else, it's that for hazards control you either go with
1) Offensive Defogger (Latios, offensive zapdos)
2) Defensive Defogger (mandibuzz, scizor, defensive zapdos, latias)
3) Offensive Spinner (excadrill, rarely starmie, and mega blastoise)

Defensive defoggers have reliable recovery, better bulk, better typing, and are overall more reliable than defensive spinners like donphan and forretress.

Ur totaly right, as an offensive spinner, excadrill outclasses donphan by far. But as a (physicaly)defensive spinner its donphan who outclasses excadrill by far. So depending of what kind of spinner u want u should go for one or the other. I guess most ppl prefer offensiv spinners for their teams but that doesnt mean that every spinner needs to be an offensive one.
The point about spin blockers is true, donphan cant do much against the more defensive ones like trev and ghourgeist. But lets be blunt here, how many of them are u facing when laddering? Personally i have seen like ~3 trevs and 0 ghourgeist so far and the usage statistics say pretty much the same. So those two arent realy an issue to donphans viability. If they were widely used they would limit donphans viability alot, but they arent.
In the rare scenario that we encounter these things, excadrill beats them anyway, so we're good.
It's also good to note that excadrill beats rotom-w. Donphan doesn't. At all.

By putting an air balloon exca sacrifices dmg/recovery just to patch up his crippling weakness. Donphan doesnt have to do that an can use lefties for much needed recovery. Since water, grass and ice are special 90% of the time there would be no point in giving him an item to remove those weaknesses because, i cant stretch that point enough, donphan isnt supposed to take special hits. So no, putting on an assault vest is certainly not the best thing to do especially because u cant use rocks with it and with that ur losing one of the main reasons to use donphan in the first place. If i just want spin i would rather go for tentacruel of mega blastoise or one of the countless defog users.
But patching up that weakness is HUGE! Excadrill has a 135 base attack so he really doesn't need a life orb, and if you wanted the defensive route AV is usually better.
"Donphan doesn't have to do that an can use lefties for much needed recovery." How is this making donphan look good again?
For a defensive spinner not being able to take any special hits what so ever is pretty bad. It's not supposed to, sure, but its a defensive pokemon that folds to very powerful physical hits regardless and has no good healing source.

The point with skarm and defog users in general is, at least for me, that i dont want to remove my own hazards and i dont want to give bisharp free boosts so they are out of the question for me and i assume that there are alot of ppl out there who think the same way. If skarm got rapidspin i guess i would use him over donphan, but he doesnt.
Bisharp can get past donphan with a combo of knock off+Iron head when life orbed with only 30% prior damage anyway, not at all tough to inflict.
And your donphan isn't getting any healing done, remember? Skarmory, latias, and all the other defensive defoggers can roost away all day.

What u say about its typing is true, it doesnt offer much in terms of resists and has 3 weaknesses of which 2 are quite common. But as mentioned before, all 3 weaknesses are special 90% of the time there are only very few physical attacks out there that hit donphan SE and everything that doesnt hit him on his special side or is SE does very little dmg to him allowing him to switch in on almost every physical threat there is and either threaten it out or setup hazards/spin in front of it.
I should just keep my paras away from fire, flying, rock, bug, ice, poison moves and he'll do perfectly well! He can even take on any water or electric type without ice coverage! Not to mention he has access to spore and can take grass type hits all day, he should definitely be atleast B+

Keeping donphan away from all those types is not an easy task. Not to mention "being able to switch in on almost every physical threat there is" is only a one time thing; then its just death fodder. Doesn't seem very productive to me.

Overall his niche is the combination of SR setting, rapidspinning and physical bulk and the only other mon that brings those 3 traites to the table is Forretress which is at C rank. Since i personally think that donphan is better because he has more options at his disposal i would place him at least at C if not C+. To put him at D Rank id like to hear some good reasons why Forretress is that much better than donphan to give it C rank while he only gets D.
Forretress can atleast volt switch to act as a pivot, use gyro ball to maim fairies, and has MUCH better typing with MUCH more resistances. And he's pretty much just set-up fodder too.

Donphan for C+/B-

Bulky spinner vs. excadrill is an offensive spinner = different niches
As bulky as hippowdon
EQ and knock off help it beat most common spin blockers: aegi and gengar, cripples the rest with knock off
Has trouble with trevenant but so does excadrill
Knock off is an amazing move, eases prediction and helps chip at rotom-W

It's not that bad.

D rank is hilariously wrong.
It doesn't matter that you're as bulky as hippowdon when you don't have reliable recovery.
Bulky spinners just don't have a niche in this meta anymore when bulky defoggers exist, they have reliable recovery, better typing, and more offensive presence than donphan.

You also have no room for knock off in a set of EQ/SR/rapid spin/Ice shard. What are you willing to get rid of, every move is a "valuable" trait to donphan that once lost he becomes either
1) set up fodder for char-x (when eq is lost)
2) Simply a spinner (when SR is lost) (any other defogger does better, atleast even AV excadrill dents rotom-w)
3) Complete garbage (when rapid spin is lost)
4) Can't check dragons, becoming set up fodder for the likes of dnite (when ice shard is lost)

Donphan sucks, and I'm very sorry for bringing it back up again. I just feel I had to address these posts.

Now, onto a quality suggestion.
Nominating Darmanitan for C+/B-

Alright, Darmanitan has terrible defenses, above average HP, average speed (Good enough for wall breaking), but holy shit 140 base atk combined with Sheer Force affecting it's base 120 move, attach Life Orb / Choice Band for more damage and you can 2HKO everything that resists.

Darm's Flare Blitz: 120 x 1.3 x 1.5 : 234 base move coming off base 140 Atk

Victini's V-Create: 180 x 1.5 : 270 base move coming off base 100 atk

Who wins?

Let the calcs for the talking:

Choice Scarf Jolly:

252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 308-366 (92.2 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 282-332 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And V-Create > Flare Blitz in recoil, I'd rather take so much recoil (which actually takes it pretty well w/ base 105 HP) than lose, Speed, Defense, AND Special Defense, which is literally hit-and-run, but Darmanitan doesn't care, it'll die from recoil, but at least gives you minimum 1 death.

And the following is actually pretty interesting:

252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 357-421 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 348-411 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Hit harder than Kyurem-B's Adamant outrage with a Jolly Nature? Check! Have the same speed as it? Check! Not be locked if you are running non-choice? Check! Have as much bulk as Kyurem-B? hell no. Have much better coverage? Check!

Darmanitan is vulnerable to all kinds of hazards, which sucks, and to add to it, Darmanitan will die to an Adamant CB Talonflame's BB

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 379-447 (107.9 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But it still has a 87.5% chance of surviving a Life Orb Jolly BB, which is honestly the most common. It does die to Aqua Jet, but at least, it does resist Bullet Punch. It does not die to Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack, NOR Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch.

Scarf Darmanitan is also a check (not a counter) for a lot of pokemons: Charizard Y, Mega Luc, Genesect, Ferrothorn (can check), Forretress (can check), Excadrill, Mega Pinsir, Aegislash, Thundurus, Landorus, Scizor & Mega, Mega Mawile, Bisharp, and all of stuff.

I also want to know one single pokemon that can switch in on CB Darmanitan other than Slowking.

Darmanitan 2HKO-es the following (Without a boosting item & a jolly nature): Chansey, Specially defensive Mandibuzz (Physically defensive gets 2HKOed if SR are up or you have LO/CB or Adamant Nature) , Skarmory (OHKO if sturdy is not intact), Tangrowth (OHKO w/ Rocks/LO/CB/Adamant nature), Umbreon: the physical walls of OU.




Darminatan also gets Rock Slide, great addition to Sheer Force, U-Turn always keeps momentum, and finally EQ or Superpower for coverage.

Darmanitan does have a problem with priority, speed, hazards, and Slowking, it also lacks priority and is not that versatile, on the bright side it is immune to burn, but it isn't that great. Darmanitan also needs support from Defog/RS, to walls for switches (if you are locked b/c of choice item), and other things such as a Slowking murderer.

Darmanitan is a Slow, pretty frail, nuke, but emphasis on nuke, big one. And for those reasons, I'm nominating it for C+/B- (Personally the latter)
There are a few flaws in this argument. Kyu-b gets perfectly respectable coverage with fusion bolt, ice beam, and earth power; darmanitan has to rely on the suicidal flare blitz and unreliable superpower for good coverage. Darmanitan can't really switch-in either.

However, this guy is indeed a nuke, so I'd say B- is a good place for him to be.

Neither Crawdaunt nor Mega Abomasnow belong in C-rank. Neither need a special amount of support to be effective in OU and their flaws are not crippling. Both belong in the middle of the B rank.

Crawdaunt is very often a win condition as its powerful Aqua Jet does a great job at late-game cleaning, and its other moves wallbreak most of the defensive metagame, which practically ensures an important role for it in any match you end up in. It is not eclipsed by Azumarill, as was - I think - demonstrated in its thread on this forum so I would refer anyone to that extended debate. Its ability to carry out the two roles I mentioned so consistently makes it very out of place in its current rank of C+.

Mega Abomasnow's unique offensive STAB combo and extensive movepool and mixed offensive stats mean that virtually nothing in the tier can safely switch into it if all viable possibilities are taken into account. That same typing might seem like a crippling flaw due to its many weaknesses but resistance to water, electric, grass, and ground provide a surprising number of opportunities and its bulk allows it to take neutral hits in stride. Plus it has the pleasure of switching into Spores, Sleep Powders, and Leech Seeds for free. The only support it really depends on is Defog/RS but that is true of some of the top threats in the tier as well.
Crawdaunt is a pretty cool pokemon, but its sorely outclassed by azumarill, who can actually switch-in on shit and function as an offensive pivot. Crawdaunt cannot switch-in on anything and relying on just aqua jet is really dumb without rain. Water/Fairy is such an excellent typing that Water/Dark cannot even begin to compare to. I'll just leave it at that.

Mega Obamasnow is a sad case. I used him in a TR team in OU once, and no matter how hard I tried to specialize mega obamasnow into a team, it only peaked above 2000 once. This is because of his amazing amount of weaknesses, which includes rocks, brave bird, mach punch, bullet punch, and u-turn. It brings so many weaknesses to a team it most certainly needs more support than simply hazard control. It's true the not a lot can switch-in to it's great moves, but a couple come into mind:
1) Genesect can take any one hit and threaten you out with everything, making you lose momentum.
2) Heatran can come in on both STABs and kill you before you can eq. Earthquaking on the switch is the only way to go, and if you risk it with the pokemon that is currently in, chances are that its offensive and you're dead.
3) Aegislash is a big problem, with tank-slash taking less than 50% from eq and retaliating for huge damage with shadow ball or iron head.

That's just many of the possible switch-ins that's easy to abuse him. His "bulk" means that you will have to invest a large amount of your evs into hp, meaning your earthquakes are even weaker as your switch-ins grow. Mega obamasnow is just not a pokemon meant for this tier.[/quote]
 
I am definitely sticking up as many thumbs as I can to this post. Honestly, I find myself sticking a kyu-b where I used to stick on a rotom-w on my teams these days, and it works miracles. It breaks through rotom-w/lando-t and venutran cores like butter. The only thing on stall teams that even stops this thing is chansey, and I remember, once I had to rely on his 101 hp subs to outstall the few seismic tosses and toxics that chansey had left to open up a volcorona sweep to win a 132 turn long battle. Kyu-b is outright amazing I swear. With max speed and a positive nature you can nuke lucario with an earth power before mega-evo (not gonna be relevant anymore but w/e) and hit up mega garchomp with an ice beam, among many, many other pokemon. It's just a great poke that has everything except for the existence of pixilate hyper voice going for it this gen.



[/quote]

Sir/Madam, that is some quote.

I agree on the promotion of K-B to A+ (not going S quite yet as it still has a few flaws I feel hold it back immensely). It is always a threat in battles, with its power nearly unmatched in how it destroys stuff (and I'm currently loving that line on how Crobat destroys it elegantly to K-B decking stall with a hammer xD). With its movepool, speed, stats, and sets, K-B is able to be a monster in every regard. The only thing that ever halts him is the fact he is susceptible to all forms of entry hazard (which are easy to remove but they can be put back up just as easily (Deoxsys-S, I'm looking at you)) and common weaknesses, but he is able to over come that easily.

A+ rank I support for the big Ice cube.

EDIT: The quote function doesn't wish to work.....sigh
 
Kyube being s rank is insane fren. While it is known for being a stall breaker, it loses to fucking chansey, because chansey doesn't even have to try to break it's sub because it easily pp stalls it. The only set that has a chance to beat (good) stall teams is lo 4 Atks. That is a deadly set, but it very easy to wear down, requires a ton of prediction, and is pretty much dead weight against offensive teams. Mega scizor is another counter, and it hates to deal with av conk. Sect, Luke, and aegis shit on it too. And I like kyube, I'm not saying it should be b rank or anything, setting up subs on rotoms is beautiful. But mid a is where it should be.


On another note, Bisharp should be A+

This thing is basically mandatory on hyper offense these days. It is a threat to every playstyle, as it can kill nearly every offensive non -resist with it's powerful sucker punch, and really hurt stall with its power. It punishes the removal of hazards harshly, and is basically this generations version of a spinblocker. It can fit on almost every playstyle, even spike stacking stall could use it. It is the biggest reason that deoxys s is a suspect too.

Stab knock off, really good coverage, and taking a giant shit on aegislash is cool too


Ps, it pursuit traps aegislash
Fuck yeah
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
Agreeing with Tesung.

One of the strongest priority in the tier, knock off too. These two moves alone make it FANTASTIC against OFFENSE AND DEFENSE. Strong steel moves are a fantastic commodity, and its one of the best pursuit users in the tier. Dont even have to say why Defiant is amazing.

Bisharp is absolutely stunning.
 
Kyube being s rank is insane fren. While it is known for being a stall breaker, it loses to fucking chansey, because chansey doesn't even have to try to break it's sub because it easily pp stalls it. The only set that has a chance to beat (good) stall teams is lo 4 Atks. That is a deadly set, but it very easy to wear down, requires a ton of prediction, and is pretty much dead weight against offensive teams. Mega scizor is another counter, and it hates to deal with av conk. Sect, Luke, and aegis shit on it too. And I like kyube, I'm not saying it should be b rank or anything, setting up subs on rotoms is beautiful. But mid a is where it should be.


On another note, Bisharp should be A+

This thing is basically mandatory on hyper offense these days. It is a threat to every playstyle, as it can kill nearly every offensive non -resist with it's powerful sucker punch, and really hurt stall with its power. It punishes the removal of hazards harshly, and is basically this generations version of a spinblocker. It can fit on almost every playstyle, even spike stacking stall could use it. It is the biggest reason that deoxys s is a suspect too.

Stab knock off, really good coverage, and taking a giant shit on aegislash is cool too


Ps, it pursuit traps aegislash
Fuck yeah
Kyube can be stalled by Chansey...
...and that's it. So basically you can destroy any stall team without Chansey on it, and force out 5/6 members of the ones that do have Chansey. All you have to do is pack a Conkeldurr or something that doesn't care about Chansey and you're good to go. Any given pokemon can be walled by something (except Mega-Lucario but that's why he's gonna be banned), so the fact that Kyube is only walled by one thing is pretty damn impressive. Also, LO 4 attacks is not by any means dead weight against offensive teams, as you can come in on anything that can't KO you (not difficult with 125/100/90 bulk) and do huge damage to something with Dragon Claw.

I'm not pushing for S-rank, that's a little extreme, but I think Kyube should be a solid A+.
 
Kyube can be stalled by Chansey...
...and that's it. So basically you can destroy any stall team without Chansey on it, and force out 5/6 members of the ones that do have Chansey. All you have to do is pack a Conkeldurr or something that doesn't care about Chansey and you're good to go. Any given pokemon can be walled by something (except Mega-Lucario but that's why he's gonna be banned), so the fact that Kyube is only walled by one thing is pretty damn impressive. Also, LO 4 attacks is not by any means dead weight against offensive teams, as you can come in on anything that can't KO you (not difficult with 125/100/90 bulk) and do huge damage to something with Dragon Claw.

I'm not pushing for S-rank, that's a little extreme, but I think Kyube should be a solid A+.
Mega scizor stalls it out too even more easily. There is also shit like cress or sylveon that beats it too. And being stalled out by chansey does singlehandedly make you not a threat to stall. Because you can have your Conkelldurr , but they will just go into their venusaur, and so on. I actually played a match against tfl (one if the best stall players out there) with a team that had av conk and kyube ironically. He 6-0ed me despite me making perfect plays. Lo 4 atk isn't dead weight, that was an overstatement, but it has trouble against offense due to rarely finding the time to switch in and attack especially with sr weakness. It also loses to most of s rank besides venu
 

Duck Chris

replay watcher
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Community Leader
Kyube can be stalled by Chansey...
...and that's it. So basically you can destroy any stall team without Chansey on it, and force out 5/6 members of the ones that do have Chansey. All you have to do is pack a Conkeldurr or something that doesn't care about Chansey and you're good to go. Any given pokemon can be walled by something (except Mega-Lucario but that's why he's gonna be banned), so the fact that Kyube is only walled by one thing is pretty damn impressive. Also, LO 4 attacks is not by any means dead weight against offensive teams, as you can come in on anything that can't KO you (not difficult with 125/100/90 bulk) and do huge damage to something with Dragon Claw.

I'm not pushing for S-rank, that's a little extreme, but I think Kyube should be a solid A+.
I'm definitely seconding this. It's too easy to build a team that's completely destroyed by Sub Kube, and the ability to break through VenuTran cannot be understated. I think it definitely says something when multiple mons in the current S and A+ tiers have trouble dealing with one pokemon, wallbreaker or not.

Despite his prowess and bulk, he is most probably not S rank material. Issues he faces boil down to a lack of space in his moveset for recovery. Without roost, he can get worn down fairly quickly. Without sub, he's vulnerable to priority. Without earth power, Heatran, and without ice beam, venusaur. Fusion bolt is a little less necessary in this meta given the declining popularity of bulky waters, but it remains the best way to take out Talonflame from behind a sub while dealing with manaphy among others.

Overall A+ is a great rank for him, as he is unparalleled in wallbreaking capability and retains enough bulk to pose a threat on multiple fronts.

Edit: On another note, it would be really cool if the names in the OP linked to the C&C analysis for each pokemon. ginganinja hook me up
 
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honestly darmanitan to B or B+

What walls it?

Suicune...slowbro... 252/252+def jellicent....

And where are these pokemon in the meta?

This thing will demolish the counters needed for whatever physical sweeper you want (pinsir, talon, mamo..
 
3) Aegislash is a big problem, with tank-slash taking less than 50% from eq and retaliating for huge damage with shadow ball or iron head.
Just gonna point out that Mega Obamasnow is slower and will hit Aegislash in Blade forme, scoring an OHKO, also avoiding an OHKO from Sacred Sword. And if Mega Obamasnow is behind a sub, too bad, so sad about your Aegislash, buddy. Otherwise, I agree with all other arguments in that post.
 
It seems that many discussions about donphan focus on its offensive present, while, well, it is never something it is known for and never should. I don't know why people are so mean about bulky tank spinners, when, well, bulky offensive is quite the way the current meta goes.

Also, I spot one strange argument that "when you are needing Donphan you are not building your team correctly", one better back it up with proof and evidence as this is a bold statement

Anyway, stopping ghost from switch in (all except gourgiest, which does not appreciate losing leftovers either) is sufficient because all you want is to pull off a spin, and with that you have done your job. This is in the case of spinning.

In the case of walling, it can be used to simply stop some annoying pokemon on track, it does not wall the premier offensive sweepers of course, but aren't those things being checked offensively anyway(unless you are stall teams, which won't use Donphan anyway)?
 
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I am suprised that nobody nominated Delibird. It can defog and rapid spin and has good coverage in STAB+Brick Break, making it an offensive threat. If it is about to lose a fight, it can destiny bond and take the opposing pokemon with it. Solid S+ Rank Pokemon.

Can we now focus on something serious besides Donphan? I was glad we finally started a new discussion in Darmanitan or Bisharp.
 
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Donphan fits in B-/C+. And I think Trevenant drop (from B to C) is too much. If you don't have the right type to deal inmediatly it's a really pain to deal with it. Has 5 weakness to Fire/Ice/Flying/Ghost and Dark and resistances to Water, Electric, Grass, Ground and inmunities to Normal and Fighting. The possibility of recycling Sitrus Berry 50% of the time is too good if you set up on this and deserves. It doesn't deserves C rank, specially when two of his biggest problems are expoected to go to Ubers.
And Trevenant is not bad at taking attacks, see this gem (it doesn't mean that you have to switch into Heatran for obvious reasons).
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant: 320-380 (85.5 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
It deserves a C+ ranking.

About the rest of the list
Snorlax C+ One of the better Normal types available, it has a ample moveppol, it can use Curse, Rest Talk, Assault Vest, Choice Band, etc. 160/110 defenses in the special sides is too good to pass up, specially when one of his main counters will get banned. It fits nicely the definition of special tank (i think that the adjective of tank refers to the "defensive part").
Machamp C 100% Dynamicpunch, 100% Stone Edge makes it a niche over other the main outclassed pokemon, Conkeldurr. This niche warrants a lower rank in the list because it's effective in the metagame.
Mew B Very versatile. Vey versalite. Yopu see a mew and you don't know what it will does. It can fit a lot of roles given the type of team you have. Generallythere are better pokemon to do many of his roles, but with mew normally you don'0t know if it's defensive, offensive, LO, Leftovers, what moves has (you can suspect STAB.
Cofragrigus C Crippling physiucal attackers by 1) removing his ability which his excellent defenses it's good to pass up. Only Dusknoir/Dusclops can do this role. It doesn't have reliable recovery but it can cripple physiucal attackers, with Will-o-wisp, and it has a viable set named OTR Nasty Plot that can go heavy offensive team.
Victini B Victini is better than the usage characteristic sets. It has a movepool consisting of very powerful moves, V.Create Bolt Strike. Has more than decent defenses, it has an ample movepool (specially, physically, partially mixed, pure mixed), can Volt Turn, Psychic STAB, Searing Shot (and 30% burn to eat), Thunderbolt, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball and is one of the few pokemon with having two moves of the same STAB is not silly.
Mienshao C FakeOut, more thsan good speed, a powerful High Jump Kick, a good scouter with u-turn and Regenerator. And for Fighting resist, has Stone Edge and the new buffed Knock Off as coverage moves. Don't use Swords Dance given how fragile it is.
Banette C+ (Mega) Even B-. It is really hurt by deciding the turn before Mega-evolving, but Prankster is really too good, specially with his ample support moivepool consisting of Taunt, Will-o-Wisp, and specially Destiny Bond, hen it's very dangerous and unique in pokemon with pranksters. And on top of that, it has a 165 Base Attack (although it has a horrendous movepool).
Avalugg C 95 HP,and 184 Defenses it's possibly one of the best Defense stats available. It has Rapid Spin, good coverage with Avalanche (which forces it last (but Avallug doesn't mind), but with the benefit of being 120 BP if the Poke is hit). And on top of it it has Rapid Spin, which is compatible to Assault Vest (aole to patch his low Special Defense). For coevergae it has Earthquake and Stone Edge and learn Curse.
Shuckle C 230 Base Defenses in boths ides are good not to pass up, specially with the adding of Infestation, Contrary Shell Smash (since BW2) and being one of the only users of Sticky Web
Zoroark C It's not a bad pokemon, specially with his ability. It's fast by this metagame standard (has 105) and even though it's aminly a one-two turn trick poney it has it's uses.And even though you know that has a Zoroark, you don't know that you are fighting a Zoroark when it comes it, until Illusion is broken or start using suddenly Nasty plot which has the ability to take your team.
Suicune C+ It's still a bulky water, with the ability of Calm Mind, Scald, Rest Talk, Roar, Ice Beam, Toxic. It's basically the definition of tank and even though it's not the best pokemon to use it's not silly to use, specially when Bulky Waters not named Rotom-W are rare in this metagame.
Rhyperior C One of the best user of Assault Vest, which his great attack, great defenses, great HP (115 HP is more rare than 115 Attack), a very ample movepool, almost perfect coverage in Ground/Rock and the ability of using Swords Dance (not he best given how slow it is) and Stealth Rock.
Houndoom (Mega) C+ It's overshadowed by other S and A tier Mega pokemon, but 115 Speed and 140 Base Special Attack with Nasty Plot (and a not so horrible defense), Flamethrower/Fire Blast and Dark pulse. It's one of the few pokemon that can try manual weather without being a pure support pokemon or a wall.
Cresselia B- B- or even B) because Cresselia is the BEST MIXED WALL on OU. 120/120/130 defensive stats are EXCELLENT. It has a huge amount of support options, like Thunder Wave, Toxic, Moonlight, screens, Calm Mind and even though it has crap offense, it has Calm Mind and a good movepool (mainly Psychic/Psyshock and Ice Beam). And even though it's a wall, iit can outspeed other walls and tanks with his "good base 85 Speed"
Xatu C And even it's worse than Espeon, specially because his lower offensive presence, it's one of the only three Magic Bouncers available, and it's the one with the Best physuical Defense, and has useful inmunity and resistence thanks to his Flying Type.

This is all for today. About the remainig npokemon that I want to discuss, there are mainly Grass and Psychic types. I talk about one of the best Assault Vest users, one of thew Spore users one pokemon that was Bl because Hail, one pokemon with huge HP that can cripple your team, a pokemon with good offensive stats that used one of the lead in DPP, a counterpart of a more used pokemon with a few gimmicks over it, one of the, other lead of DPP but more bulky and only 1 weakness, one pokemon that gets Speed Boost but ius too frail, other pokemon with Speed Boost and a excellent ability that can make Top offensive threads Uber easily, one of the new prankster user of this generation, the user of the "standard" Hyper Voice with a surprise, one of the best pokemon for Baton Pass teams with a new type, a trapper with good movepool and stats except Speed, other pokemon that reminds as one of the top threads and does many of the things of the former, a pokemon that has an attack with a high chance of hax with a drop to -2, two friend of one of the top users in BW that has quaities that differenciates itself from them and has a move that we usually associate it with Aegislash and one of the few Prankster pokemon that can use the weather that it set ups.
Tangrowth B-
Ammoonguss C+
Froslass C
Wobbuffet B
Azelf C
Slowking C+
Bronzong C
Sharpedo C
Yanmega C
Meowstic C
Meloetta C
Mr. Mime C
Gothitelle C+
Rotom-Mow C
Shaymin C
Virizion C
Tornadus C
Cobalion C
 
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Srn

The Monstrous Bird of New England
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
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Kyube can be stalled by Chansey...
...and that's it. So basically you can destroy any stall team without Chansey on it, and force out 5/6 members of the ones that do have Chansey. All you have to do is pack a Conkeldurr or something that doesn't care about Chansey and you're good to go. Any given pokemon can be walled by something (except Mega-Lucario but that's why he's gonna be banned), so the fact that Kyube is only walled by one thing is pretty damn impressive. Also, LO 4 attacks is not by any means dead weight against offensive teams, as you can come in on anything that can't KO you (not difficult with 125/100/90 bulk) and do huge damage to something with Dragon Claw.

I'm not pushing for S-rank, that's a little extreme, but I think Kyube should be a solid A+.
I realize that I can't stall chansey out, this was a specific situation where his 101 hp subs came into play to stall out the few seismic tosses he had left. I basically pp stalled him, don't take that point to seriously. I mostly just wanted to point out his 101 hp subs :P
Also, defensive sylveon isn't 2hko'd even by banded fusion bolts, he is the only true counter to kyu-b.

Just gonna point out that Mega Obamasnow is slower and will hit Aegislash in Blade forme, scoring an OHKO, also avoiding an OHKO from Sacred Sword. And if Mega Obamasnow is behind a sub, too bad, so sad about your Aegislash, buddy. Otherwise, I agree with all other arguments in that post.
Obamasnow doesn't really have the room to go for substitute.
1) Ice Shard is absolutely mandatory priority
2) Blizzard is your main attack, nice and ez to spam
3) Wood Hammer is your strongest attack, lets you dent blobs
4) Earthquake lets you beat steels and fires

Once you give up any of these moves, the amount of counters shoot up, so you really can't make room for sub. An all-out attacker is the best way to use him.
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
All this Donphan talk has me thinking about forretress' current placement. It's worse than donphan at nearly everything. It usually doesn't have the time to set up hazards beyond SR. Unlike donphan, it has absolutely no way to handle spinblockers at all besides catching gengar on the switch in with gyro ball. Although it has one weakness, it has almost no switch in opportunities (less than donphan in fact!) and isn't a good pivot into anything aside from other walls like itself. Even then, most of those walls have no trouble dealing with it. I mean, it loses to rocky helmet defog skarmory for crying out loud. Because it has lower hp than donphan, it's less bulky too. And because of the nerfs to the steel type, the only thing it walls better than donphan now is azumarill (who actually has an easier time setting up on forretress and ko'ing it than donphan to be honest). Yet, despite the fact that donphan is capable of everything forretress can do (in addition to doing it better, mind you), he's treated like the joke of the OU tier. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't forretress in OU right now according to the usage statistics? Donphan's own thread started an argument over whether or not it even deserved discussion in the tier and yet a worse pokemon gets off scott free.

The point I'm getting to here?

Remove forretress from the C tier and from the list altogether. Using it at all requires you to give up a ton of momentum just to do what it does. It's typing doesn't do a good job at forcing switches like skarmory and it's setup fodder too. In addition to removing hazards while being able to set its own, skarmory has little trouble dealing with physical offensive threats. But forretress?

0- Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (73 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 57-67 (20.9 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO


And this calc was done with jolly mega pinsir, whom nobody uses. So he sets up on you and then has an 18% chance to OHKO you with a boosted return. Having forretress at all is an enormous liability. He can't take care of most spin blockers on his own, so you need to have another team member do the job. He has trouble switching into most things and is a ridiculously easy switch in for the majority of the OU tier. Admittedly, he can run earthquake for heatran and excadrill. But this doesn't even solve most of his problems. When I see a forretress, I think "oh good. A free switch in for garchomp / m-garchomp." or "I guess now is a good time for Mega Charizard X/Y to come in" or even "I was looking for the right time to mega evolve my mega manectric.". The only thing that forretress does better than any other defogger / rapid spinner is volt switch out. So...the best thing about using forretress in the OU tier is that you can use volt switch to preserve momentum sometimes. You know, the same momentum you probably gave up when you chose to add a forretress to your team to begin with and actually switched it into battle.

0- Atk Forretress Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 236-280 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So I guess you can KO Talonflame with a layer of Stealth rock up. Only...you're using forretress, meaning you're probably using him as your SR pokemon to begin with. Talonflame wouldn't dare to switch into donphan, excadrill, tyranitar, etc. And let's be honest here, the most you get out of this is pleasantly surprising your opponent as it uses roost and you switch out.

If Donphan is outclassed by excadrill, then forretress is made irrelevant. While I don't believe Donphan deserves the electivire treatment he's been getting recently, I am convinced that he isn't exactly a viable OU pokemon. But neither is forretress, who shares donphan's flaws on top of having his own. Pain Split isn't reliable recovery. Base 90 atk doesn't prevent you from becoming setup fodder when your STAB options are bad and you don't have many coverage options either. The defensive bulk doesn't help when even physical attackers setup on you and potentially sweep your team. But why not just a pokemon who does what forry can do, while not having these problems. With forretress, you usually have to worry about what your opponent will bring into it. And you can't safely leave it in to spin or set up hazards for even one turn without giving your opponent a ridiculous amount of momentum.

Remove him from the list.
 

Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
Donphan fits in B-/C+. And I think Trevenant drop (from B to C) is too much. If you don't have the right type to deal inmediatly it's a really pain to deal with it. Has 5 weakness to Fire/Ice/Flying/Ghost and Dark and resistances to Water, Electric, Grass, Ground and inmunities to Normal and Fighting. The possibility of recycling Sitrus Berry 50% of the time is too good if you set up on this and deserves. It doesn't deserves C rank, specially when two of his biggest problems are expoected to go to Ubers.
And Trevenant is not bad at taking attacks, see this gem (it doesn't mean that you have to switch into Heatran for obvious reasons).
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant: 320-380 (85.5 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
It deserves a C+ ranking.

About the rest of the list
Snorlax C+ One of the better Normal types available, it has a ample moveppol, it can use Curse, Rest Talk, Assault Vest, Choice Band, etc. 160/110 defenses in the special sides is too good to pass up, specially when one of his main counters will get banned. It fits nicely the definition of special tank (i think that the adjective of tank refers to the "defensive part").
Machamp C 100% Dynamicpunch, 100% Stone Edge makes it a niche over other the main outclassed pokemon, Conkeldurr. This niche warrants a lower rank in the list because it's effective in the metagame.
Mew B Very versatile. Vey versalite. Yopu see a mew and you don't know what it will does. It can fit a lot of roles given the type of team you have. Generallythere are better pokemon to do many of his roles, but with mew normally you don'0t know if it's defensive, offensive, LO, Leftovers, what moves has (you can suspect STAB.
Cofragrigus C Crippling physiucal attackers by 1) removing his ability which his excellent defenses it's good to pass up. Only Dusknoir/Dusclops can do this role. It doesn't have reliable recovery but it can cripple physiucal attackers, with Will-o-wisp, and it has a viable set named OTR Nasty Plot that can go heavy offensive team.
Victini B Victini is better than the usage characteristic sets. It has a movepool consisting of very powerful moves, V.Create Bolt Strike. Has more than decent defenses, it has an ample movepool (specially, physically, partially mixed, pure mixed), can Volt Turn, Psychic STAB, Searing Shot (and 30% burn to eat), Thunderbolt, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball and is one of the few pokemon with having two moves of the same STAB is not silly.
Mienshao C FakeOut, more thsan good speed, a powerful High Jump Kick, a good scouter with u-turn and Regenerator. And for Fighting resist, has Stone Edge and the new buffed Knock Off as coverage moves. Don't use Swords Dance given how fragile it is.
Banette C+ (Mega) Even B-. It is really hurt by deciding the turn before Mega-evolving, but Prankster is really too good, specially with his ample support moivepool consisting of Taunt, Will-o-Wisp, and specially Destiny Bond, hen it's very dangerous and unique in pokemon with pranksters. And on top of that, it has a 165 Base Attack (although it has a horrendous movepool).
Avalugg C 95 HP,and 184 Defenses it's possibly one of the best Defense stats available. It has Rapid Spin, good coverage with Avalanche (which forces it last (but Avallug doesn't mind), but with the benefit of being 120 BP if the Poke is hit). And on top of it it has Rapid Spin, which is compatible to Assault Vest (aole to patch his low Special Defense). For coevergae it has Earthquake and Stone Edge and learn Curse.
Shuckle C 230 Base Defenses in boths ides are good not to pass up, specially with the adding of Infestation, Contrary Shell Smash (since BW2) and being one of the only users of Sticky Web
Zoroark C It's not a bad pokemon, specially with his ability. It's fast by this metagame standard (has 105) and even though it's aminly a one-two turn trick poney it has it's uses.And even though you know that has a Zoroark, you don't know that you are fighting a Zoroark when it comes it, until Illusion is broken or start using suddenly Nasty plot which has the ability to take your team.
Suicune C+ It's still a bulky water, with the ability of Calm Mind, Scald, Rest Talk, Roar, Ice Beam, Toxic. It's basically the definition of tank and even though it's not the best pokemon to use it's not silly to use, specially when Bulky Waters not named Rotom-W are rare in this metagame.
Rhyperior C One of the best user of Assault Vest, which his great attack, great defenses, great HP (115 HP is more rare than 115 Attack), a very ample movepool, almost perfect coverage in Ground/Rock and the ability of using Swords Dance (not he best given how slow it is) and Stealth Rock.
Houndoom (Mega) C+ It's overshadowed by other S and A tier Mega pokemon, but 115 Speed and 140 Base Special Attack with Nasty Plot (and a not so horrible defense), Flamethrower/Fire Blast and Dark pulse. It's one of the few pokemon that can try manual weather without being a pure support pokemon or a wall.
Cresselia B- B- or even B) because Cresselia is the BEST MIXED WALL on OU. 120/120/130 defensive stats are EXCELLENT. It has a huge amount of support options, like Thunder Wave, Toxic, Moonlight, screens, Calm Mind and even though it has crap offense, it has Calm Mind and a good movepool (mainly Psychic/Psyshock and Ice Beam). And even though it's a wall, iit can outspeed other walls and tanks with his "good base 85 Speed"
Xatu C And even it's worse than Espeon, specially because his lower offensive presence, it's one of the only three Magic Bouncers available, and it's the one with the Best physuical Defense, and has useful inmunity and resistence thanks to his Flying Type.

This is all for today. About the remainig npokemon that I want to discuss, there are mainly Grass and Psychic types. I talk about one of the best Assault Vest users, one of thew Spore users one pokemon that was Bl because Hail, one pokemon with huge HP that can cripple your team, a pokemon with good offensive stats that used one of the lead in DPP, a counterpart of a more used pokemon with a few gimmicks over it, one of the, other lead of DPP but more bulky and only 1 weakness, one pokemon that gets Speed Boost but ius too frail, other pokemon with Speed Boost and a excellent ability that can make Top offensive threads Uber easily, one of the new prankster user of this generation, the user of the "standard" Hyper Voice with a surprise, one of the best pokemon for Baton Pass teams with a new type, a trapper with good movepool and stats except Speed, other pokemon that reminds as one of the top threads and does many of the things of the former, a pokemon that has an attack with a high chance of hax with a drop to -2, two friend of one of the top users in BW that has quaities that differenciates itself from them and has a move that we usually associate it with Aegislash and one of the few Prankster pokemon that can use the weather that it set ups.
Tangrowth B-
Ammoonguss C+
Froslass C
Wobbuffet B
Azelf C
Slowking C+
Bronzong C
Sharpedo C
Yanmega C
Meowstic C
Meloetta C
Mr. Mime C
Gothitelle C+
Rotom-Mow C
Shaymin C
Virizion C
Tornadus C
Cobalion C
oh my god please stop posting huge bolded walls of text, it's like you're shouting and it's difficult to read
 
Donphan is popular because it fills in so many holes made from bad teambuilding. It covers the role of hazards control, possible phazer, priority, it just has a great amount of utility. All these tools give inexperienced players the illusion that donphan is a great pokemon, and they find themselves sticking on teams because it frees up teamslots. Donphan's wide array of utility just straight up frees teamslots. That's why it was so popular.
Sure everyone who uses donphan is a newb and ur the only pro here... honestly thats the most stupid statements i have read here so far.


252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 177-208 (46 - 54.1%) -- 4.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 225-265 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 180-214 (46.8 - 55.7%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 380-447 (98.9 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 306-360 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Thanks for proving my statement. Tanking a SE Waterfall from CB Azu says everything about his defensiv capability.


You know what's the problem here? Offensive spinners are better. There is no defensive spinner out there with reliable recovery (I consider starmie offensive). The meta is offensive and when you can threaten something out and spin on the switch, you're much better off then taking 40% or so just to get rid of hazards once. It's not that we think there's nothing else, it's that for hazards control you either go with
1) Offensive Defogger (Latios, offensive zapdos)
2) Defensive Defogger (mandibuzz, scizor, defensive zapdos, latias)
3) Offensive Spinner (excadrill, rarely starmie, and mega blastoise)

Defensive defoggers have reliable recovery, better bulk, better typing, and are overall more reliable than defensive spinners like donphan and forretress.
There are enough things donphan can force out and then spin on the switch. And its pretty one sided to assume that donphan always takes 40% dmg despite his bulk on switch while the frail excadrill always comes in unharmed. Are u playing somewhere in the 1000 where u can always switch in ur airballoon exca into earthquake cuz ur opponents dont know the word prediction?

In the rare scenario that we encounter these things, excadrill beats them anyway, so we're good.
It's also good to note that excadrill beats rotom-w. Donphan doesn't. At all.
And nothing of that matters at all as stated a thousand times before.

But patching up that weakness is HUGE! Excadrill has a 135 base attack so he really doesn't need a life orb, and if you wanted the defensive route AV is usually better.
"Donphan doesn't have to do that an can use lefties for much needed recovery." How is this making donphan look good again?
For a defensive spinner not being able to take any special hits what so ever is pretty bad. It's not supposed to, sure, but its a defensive pokemon that folds to very powerful physical hits regardless and has no good healing source.
that would mean we have to throw skarm and hippowdon out of OU cuz they dont have special bulk as well. Donphan has enough bulk to take one or even 2 hits of some of the most dangerous sweepers around and he can kill/force alot of them out. How blind can someone be not to see that?


Bisharp can get past donphan with a combo of knock off+Iron head when life orbed with only 30% prior damage anyway, not at all tough to inflict.
And your donphan isn't getting any healing done, remember? Skarmory, latias, and all the other defensive defoggers can roost away all day.
with only 30% prior dmg... are even reading the crap ur writing here? The big difference is that against skarm and the others Bisharp gets free +2 and they cant do anything against him exept phazing him out. And id realy like to see some bisharp switching in on donphan.

I should just keep my paras away from fire, flying, rock, bug, ice, poison moves and he'll do perfectly well! He can even take on any water or electric type without ice coverage! Not to mention he has access to spore and can take grass type hits all day, he should definitely be atleast B+

Keeping donphan away from all those types is not an easy task. Not to mention "being able to switch in on almost every physical threat there is" is only a one time thing; then its just death fodder. Doesn't seem very productive to me.
Now its realy getting stupid. There is a huge difference between 3 weaknesses and 6. Donphan has 3 weaknesses of which only 2 are common. Excadrill has 4 extremly common weaknesses and no bulk what so ever. One correct prediction from ur opponent and ur spinner is gone.



Forretress can atleast volt switch to act as a pivot, use gyro ball to maim fairies, and has MUCH better typing with MUCH more resistances. And he's pretty much just set-up fodder too.
I know u like stating that but it doesnt get true by repeating the same bullshit all the time. Donphan doesnt have the offensive power of excadrill but he is more than strong enough to prevent most sweepers from setting up on him. SD Lucario, Talonflame, Pinsir, Dragonite, Garchomp, Charizard X etc not one of them can safely setup on donphan without knowing his full set.

Do this thread a favour and find some arguments that actually make sense before trying to participate in a discussion. That post is so full of arrogance and bullshit it hurts my eyes.
 
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