Ok guys for fucks sake, you can't nominate pokes to be blacklisted. But seeing as how all everyone does is bring donphan up and hate on it, it will probably be blacklisted anyways, even though I fail to see how excadrill comepletly outclassed it. But I digress
Anyone use much kyurem black lately? I'm thinking its a solid A+ or EVEN S. Literally everything has been going good for kyub this gen. Fighting types are no longer the dominant force and the metagame has slowed down comepletly. And kyurem does one job better than almost any poke in the game. Breaking stall. Unlike crobat, who stops stall almost elegantly, kyurem black literally decks stall in the face with a hammer. The fairies hardly have effected kyurem besides gardevoir and sylveon, and I think the fact that a mon that single handily counters a quickly becoming common playstyle is a huge merit, and it honestly doesn't require that much team support in the first place
I am definitely sticking up as many thumbs as I can to this post. Honestly, I find myself sticking a kyu-b where I used to stick on a rotom-w on my teams these days, and it works miracles. It breaks through rotom-w/lando-t and venutran cores like butter. The only thing on stall teams that even stops this thing is chansey, and I remember, once I had to rely on his 101 hp subs to outstall the few seismic tosses and toxics that chansey had left to open up a volcorona sweep to win a 132 turn long battle. Kyu-b is outright amazing I swear. With max speed and a positive nature you can nuke lucario with an earth power before mega-evo (not gonna be relevant anymore but w/e) and hit up mega garchomp with an ice beam, among many, many other pokemon. It's just a great poke that has everything except for the existence of pixilate hyper voice going for it this gen.
if thats true, how do u explain donphans high usage? I somewhat doubt that its mere popularity like in charizards case during the last 5 gens...
Donphan is popular because it fills in so many holes made from bad teambuilding. It covers the role of hazards control, possible phazer, priority, it just has a great amount of utility. All these tools give inexperienced players the illusion that donphan is a great pokemon, and they find themselves sticking on teams because it frees up teamslots. Donphan's wide array of utility just straight up frees teamslots. That's why it was so popular.
His physical bulk gives him plenty of opportunitys to set sr or spin. Honestly he can switch in on almost every physical threat take the hit and do what he wants afterwards. He doesnt need any speed. As long as u dont try to spin on keldeo without sturdy ready u can be pretty sure that he will get his job done.
Honestly he can switch in on almost every physical threat take the hit and do what he wants afterwards.
That's gold right there
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 177-208 (46 - 54.1%) -- 4.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 225-265 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 180-214 (46.8 - 55.7%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 380-447 (98.9 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 306-360 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
He doesn't have any form of recovery either.
Thats kinda ironic. That exacdrill lacks donphans bulk is fine because "he is not meant to be a bulky spinner". Did it never cross ur mind that donphan is not meant to be an offensive spinner and therefore cant be outclassed by excadrill? Its the exact same argument.
That whole discussion here leaves me with the impression that most ppl here think every spinner has to be an offensive one and that there is nothing else.
You know what's the problem here? Offensive spinners are better.
There is no defensive spinner out there with reliable recovery (I consider starmie offensive). The meta is offensive and when you can threaten something out and spin on the switch, you're much better off then taking 40% or so just to get rid of hazards once. It's not that we think there's nothing else, it's that for hazards control you either go with
1) Offensive Defogger (Latios, offensive zapdos)
2) Defensive Defogger (mandibuzz, scizor, defensive zapdos, latias)
3) Offensive Spinner (excadrill, rarely starmie, and mega blastoise)
Defensive defoggers have reliable recovery, better bulk, better typing, and are overall more reliable than defensive spinners like donphan and forretress.
Ur totaly right, as an offensive spinner, excadrill outclasses donphan by far. But as a (physicaly)defensive spinner its donphan who outclasses excadrill by far. So depending of what kind of spinner u want u should go for one or the other. I guess most ppl prefer offensiv spinners for their teams but that doesnt mean that every spinner needs to be an offensive one.
The point about spin blockers is true, donphan cant do much against the more defensive ones like trev and ghourgeist. But lets be blunt here, how many of them are u facing when laddering? Personally i have seen like ~3 trevs and 0 ghourgeist so far and the usage statistics say pretty much the same. So those two arent realy an issue to donphans viability. If they were widely used they would limit donphans viability alot, but they arent.
In the rare scenario that we encounter these things, excadrill beats them anyway, so we're good.
It's also good to note that excadrill beats rotom-w. Donphan doesn't. At all.
By putting an air balloon exca sacrifices dmg/recovery just to patch up his crippling weakness. Donphan doesnt have to do that an can use lefties for much needed recovery. Since water, grass and ice are special 90% of the time there would be no point in giving him an item to remove those weaknesses because, i cant stretch that point enough, donphan isnt supposed to take special hits. So no, putting on an assault vest is certainly not the best thing to do especially because u cant use rocks with it and with that ur losing one of the main reasons to use donphan in the first place. If i just want spin i would rather go for tentacruel of mega blastoise or one of the countless defog users.
But patching up that weakness is HUGE! Excadrill has a 135 base attack so he really doesn't need a life orb, and if you wanted the defensive route AV is usually better.
"Donphan doesn't have to do that an can use lefties for much needed recovery." How is this making donphan look good again?
For a defensive spinner not being able to take any special hits what so ever is pretty bad. It's not supposed to, sure, but its a defensive pokemon that folds to very powerful physical hits regardless and has no good healing source.
The point with skarm and defog users in general is, at least for me, that i dont want to remove my own hazards and i dont want to give bisharp free boosts so they are out of the question for me and i assume that there are alot of ppl out there who think the same way. If skarm got rapidspin i guess i would use him over donphan, but he doesnt.
Bisharp can get past donphan with a combo of knock off+Iron head when life orbed with only 30% prior damage anyway, not at all tough to inflict.
And your donphan isn't getting any healing done, remember? Skarmory, latias, and all the other defensive defoggers can roost away all day.
What u say about its typing is true, it doesnt offer much in terms of resists and has 3 weaknesses of which 2 are quite common. But as mentioned before, all 3 weaknesses are special 90% of the time there are only very few physical attacks out there that hit donphan SE and everything that doesnt hit him on his special side or is SE does very little dmg to him allowing him to switch in on almost every physical threat there is and either threaten it out or setup hazards/spin in front of it.
I should just keep my paras away from fire, flying, rock, bug, ice, poison moves and he'll do perfectly well! He can even take on any water or electric type without ice coverage! Not to mention he has access to spore and can take grass type hits all day, he should definitely be atleast B+
Keeping donphan away from all those types is not an easy task. Not to mention "being able to switch in on almost every physical threat there is" is only a one time thing; then its just death fodder. Doesn't seem very productive to me.
Overall his niche is the combination of SR setting, rapidspinning and physical bulk and the only other mon that brings those 3 traites to the table is Forretress which is at C rank. Since i personally think that donphan is better because he has more options at his disposal i would place him at least at C if not C+. To put him at D Rank id like to hear some good reasons why Forretress is that much better than donphan to give it C rank while he only gets D.
Forretress can atleast volt switch to act as a pivot, use gyro ball to maim fairies, and has MUCH better typing with MUCH more resistances. And he's pretty much just set-up fodder too.
Donphan for C+/B-
Bulky spinner vs. excadrill is an offensive spinner = different niches
As bulky as hippowdon
EQ and knock off help it beat most common spin blockers: aegi and gengar, cripples the rest with knock off
Has trouble with trevenant but so does excadrill
Knock off is an amazing move, eases prediction and helps chip at rotom-W
It's not that bad.
D rank is hilariously wrong.
It doesn't matter that you're as bulky as hippowdon when you don't have reliable recovery.
Bulky spinners just don't have a niche in this meta anymore when bulky defoggers exist, they have reliable recovery, better typing, and more offensive presence than donphan.
You also have no room for knock off in a set of EQ/SR/rapid spin/Ice shard. What are you willing to get rid of, every move is a "valuable" trait to donphan that once lost he becomes either
1) set up fodder for char-x (when eq is lost)
2) Simply a spinner (when SR is lost) (any other defogger does better, atleast even AV excadrill dents rotom-w)
3) Complete garbage (when rapid spin is lost)
4) Can't check dragons, becoming set up fodder for the likes of dnite (when ice shard is lost)
Donphan sucks, and I'm very sorry for bringing it back up again. I just feel I had to address these posts.
Now, onto a quality suggestion.
Nominating Darmanitan for C+/B-
Alright, Darmanitan has terrible defenses, above average HP, average speed (Good enough for wall breaking), but holy shit 140 base atk combined with Sheer Force affecting it's base 120 move, attach Life Orb / Choice Band for more damage and you can 2HKO everything that resists.
Darm's Flare Blitz: 120 x 1.3 x 1.5 : 234 base move coming off base 140 Atk
Victini's V-Create: 180 x 1.5 : 270 base move coming off base 100 atk
Let the calcs for the talking:
Choice Scarf Jolly:
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 308-366 (92.2 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 282-332 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And V-Create > Flare Blitz in recoil, I'd rather take so much recoil (which actually takes it pretty well w/ base 105 HP) than lose, Speed, Defense, AND Special Defense, which is literally hit-and-run, but Darmanitan doesn't care, it'll die from recoil, but at least gives you minimum 1 death.
And the following is actually pretty interesting:
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 357-421 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 348-411 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
Hit harder than Kyurem-B's Adamant outrage with a Jolly Nature? Check! Have the same speed as it? Check! Not be locked if you are running non-choice? Check! Have as much bulk as Kyurem-B? hell no. Have much better coverage? Check!
Darmanitan is vulnerable to all kinds of hazards, which sucks, and to add to it, Darmanitan will die to an Adamant CB Talonflame's BB
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 379-447 (107.9 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
But it still has a 87.5% chance of surviving a Life Orb Jolly BB, which is honestly the most common. It does die to Aqua Jet, but at least, it does resist Bullet Punch. It does not die to Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack, NOR Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch.
Scarf Darmanitan is also a check (not a counter) for a lot of pokemons: Charizard Y, Mega Luc, Genesect, Ferrothorn (can check), Forretress (can check), Excadrill, Mega Pinsir, Aegislash, Thundurus, Landorus, Scizor & Mega, Mega Mawile, Bisharp, and all of stuff.
I also want to know one single pokemon that can switch in on CB Darmanitan other than Slowking.
Darmanitan 2HKO-es the following (Without a boosting item & a jolly nature): Chansey, Specially defensive Mandibuzz (Physically defensive gets 2HKOed if SR are up or you have LO/CB or Adamant Nature) , Skarmory (OHKO if sturdy is not intact), Tangrowth (OHKO w/ Rocks/LO/CB/Adamant nature), Umbreon: the physical walls of OU.
Darminatan also gets Rock Slide, great addition to Sheer Force, U-Turn always keeps momentum, and finally EQ or Superpower for coverage.
Darmanitan does have a problem with priority, speed, hazards, and Slowking, it also lacks priority and is not that versatile, on the bright side it is immune to burn, but it isn't that great. Darmanitan also needs support from Defog/RS, to walls for switches (if you are locked b/c of choice item), and other things such as a Slowking murderer.
Darmanitan is a Slow, pretty frail, nuke, but emphasis on nuke, big one. And for those reasons, I'm nominating it for C+/B- (Personally the latter)
There are a few flaws in this argument. Kyu-b gets perfectly respectable coverage with fusion bolt, ice beam, and earth power; darmanitan has to rely on the suicidal flare blitz and unreliable superpower for good coverage. Darmanitan can't really switch-in either.
However, this guy is indeed a nuke, so I'd say B- is a good place for him to be.
Neither Crawdaunt nor Mega Abomasnow belong in C-rank. Neither need a special amount of support to be effective in OU and their flaws are not crippling. Both belong in the middle of the B rank.
Crawdaunt is very often a win condition as its powerful Aqua Jet does a great job at late-game cleaning, and its other moves wallbreak most of the defensive metagame, which practically ensures an important role for it in any match you end up in. It is not eclipsed by Azumarill, as was - I think - demonstrated in its thread on this forum so I would refer anyone to that extended debate. Its ability to carry out the two roles I mentioned so consistently makes it very out of place in its current rank of C+.
Mega Abomasnow's unique offensive STAB combo and extensive movepool and mixed offensive stats mean that virtually nothing in the tier can safely switch into it if all viable possibilities are taken into account. That same typing might seem like a crippling flaw due to its many weaknesses but resistance to water, electric, grass, and ground provide a surprising number of opportunities and its bulk allows it to take neutral hits in stride. Plus it has the pleasure of switching into Spores, Sleep Powders, and Leech Seeds for free. The only support it really depends on is Defog/RS but that is true of some of the top threats in the tier as well.
Crawdaunt is a pretty cool pokemon, but its sorely outclassed by azumarill, who can actually switch-in on shit and function as an offensive pivot. Crawdaunt cannot switch-in on anything and relying on just aqua jet is really dumb without rain. Water/Fairy is such an excellent typing that Water/Dark cannot even begin to compare to. I'll just leave it at that.
Mega Obamasnow is a sad case. I used him in a TR team in OU once, and no matter how hard I tried to specialize mega obamasnow into a team, it only peaked above 2000 once. This is because of his amazing amount of weaknesses, which includes rocks, brave bird, mach punch, bullet punch, and u-turn. It brings so many weaknesses to a team it most certainly needs more support than simply hazard control. It's true the not a lot can switch-in to it's great moves, but a couple come into mind:
1) Genesect can take any one hit and threaten you out with everything, making you lose momentum.
2) Heatran can come in on both STABs and kill you before you can eq. Earthquaking on the switch is the only way to go, and if you risk it with the pokemon that is currently in, chances are that its offensive and you're dead.
3) Aegislash is a big problem, with tank-slash taking less than 50% from eq and retaliating for huge damage with shadow ball or iron head.
That's just many of the possible switch-ins that's easy to abuse him. His "bulk" means that you will have to invest a large amount of your evs into hp, meaning your earthquakes are even weaker as your switch-ins grow. Mega obamasnow is just not a pokemon meant for this tier.[/quote]