Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

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alexwolf

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Credit to PK Gaming for the format

***MUST READ***: The goal of this thread is the same as usual, with one little difference. Rank changes won't take place in this thread, but in the viability ranking thread of the Victory Road subforum, which can be found here. Then, this thread will be updated with whatever ranking changes happened in the respective thread in VR. Here you can discuss about the ranked Pokemon, if they should move or drop, and if any new Pokemon should be added into the list. Even though a higher emphasis is placed on the VR version of this thread, don't let this discourage you from posting. The OU moderators will keep a close eye on this thread, so any well-built post with good arguments will be taken into consideration for the VR version of this thread. If you are new to Smogon and don't know what this thread is about, you can keep on reading to get the idea.

Welcome to the official OU Viability Rankings topic. You should know the drill by now; In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. It's about time the OU subforum joined in on the action!

The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.
  • EX: Garchomp can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Forretress can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Skarmory can be can also be ranked in B tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples.
Note that the overall tier list is in no particular order.

Below are the definitions of each rank, and they should be read be anyone that wants to participate in the discussion of Pokemon's ranks in OU:

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

XY OU Ranking Tier List

(In alphabetical order)

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

Azumarill
Charizard (Mega-X)
Keldeo
Landorus
Thundurus

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

A+ Rank

Charizard (Mega-Y)
Clefable
Excadrill
Garchomp
Greninja
Gyarados (Mega)
Heatran
Latias
Latios
Pinsir (Mega)
Talonflame
Terrakion
Tyranitar (Mega)
Venusaur (Mega)

A Rank

Bisharp
Dragonite
Ferrothorn
Gardevoir (Mega)
Gengar
Gliscor
Heracross (Mega)
Hippowdon
Landorus-T
Mamoswine
Medicham (Mega)
Mew
Rotom-W
Scizor (Mega)
Tyranitar

A- Rank

Amoonguss
Breloom
Chansey
Diggersby
Gyarados
Kyurem-B
Manaphy
Mandibuzz
Skarmory
Slowbro

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

B+ Rank

Alomomola
Garchomp (Mega)
Kabutops
Politoed
Quagsire
Scizor
Scolipede
Suicune
Tornadus-T

B Rank

Aerodactyl (Mega)
Alakazam (Mega)
Kingdra
Lucario
Magnezone
Manectric (Mega)
Raikou
Starmie
Victini
Zapdos

B- Rank

Absol (Mega)
Ampharos (Mega)
Celebi
Chesnaught
Entei
Gothitelle
Rhyperior
Sableye
Staraptor
Weavile

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

C+ Rank

Aggron (Mega)
Azelf
Blastoise (Mega)
Conkeldurr
Crawdaunt
Cresselia
Ditto
Espeon
Hydreigon
Infernape
Klefki
Omastar
Rotom-H
Shuckle
Smeargle
Sylveon
Thundurus-T
Togekiss
Volcarona

C Rank

Alakazam
Chandelure
Diancie
Exploud
Goodra
Gourgeist-Small
Hawlucha
Houndoom (Mega)
Jirachi
Krookodile
Porygon2
Seismitoad
Venomoth
Wobbuffet

C- Rank

Bronzong
Dugtrio
Gastrodon
Gorebyss
Ludicolo
Noivern
Slowking
Tangrowth
Tornadus
Toxicroak
Umbreon

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

Arcanine
Banette (Mega)
Blissey
Doublade
Empoleon
Froslass
Granbull
Haxorus
Mantine
Moltres
Roserade
Salamence
Sharpedo
Weezing
Zygarde


''CONCLUSION REACHED'' POKEMON: Pokemon in this list have reached a conclusive ideal ranking, so unless the metagame changes towards them or there is something about them that hasn't been said, discussion about them is disallowed.

  • Mantine

BLACKLISTED POKEMON
  • Florges
  • Donphan
  • Heliolisk
  • Darmanitan
Rules
  • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated
  • No flaming
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
  • No talk about editing the OFFICIAL Smogon tier lists.
  • PKGaming is amazing. This is an undisputed fact.
Happy posting ♪♪
 
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Are we still only covering B- and C+ rankings? Also, I still don't understand what is going on here. If both threads are going to be taken into account, why not just have this one for the sake of simplicity and uniformity?
 

alexwolf

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You can discuss about anything in the list. We have both threads because in the one in the VR subforum only good posters and players can post, meaning that the overall quality of the discussion there is higher. However, no matter how good of a player or a poster one is, there is a thread for him to voice his opinion, and if this opinion is supported with good arguments, it will be taken into account.
 
You can discuss about anything in the list. We have both threads because in the one in the VR subforum only good posters and players can post, meaning that the overall quality of the discussion there is higher. However, no matter how good of a player or a poster one is, there is a thread for him to voice his opinion, and if this opinion is supported with good arguments, it will be taken into account.
I just find it inconvenient because it is more difficult to directly reply to those who post in the VR version of the thread and vice versa. I think that flipping back and forth between two threads on the same topic is an unnecessary hassle for everyone involved. If the mods are really going to go by the quality of the post and not the reputation of the poster, then there really is no need for two threads.
 

Karxrida

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Galvantula needs to be moved to D Rank if not removed entirely. Sticky Web is its only niche, and its not even a very good one, since most teams don't care about the speed loss due to all the priority running around, the rise of Double Bird and Flying Spam, Bisharp exisiting, or just not needing speed in the first place (Stall DGAF).

Also, Galvantula is forced to be a sucide lead due to its fraility in a meta with Defoggers and Excadrill, making it a waste of a teamslot for something so conditional.
 
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Nice to know our opinions will also be considered. Thank you.

Anyway, I've noticed that they are discussing whether to place Deoxys-S in S-rank. That makes me wonder, what about Deoxys-D? It's literally a flawless hazard setter, who can set up rocks with almost 100% of chance, and depending on the enemy team, even more than rocks. It's become a staple of offensive teams more than any of the other S-rank pokemon.

There was a very good post in the other thread arguing for that during the A and A- discussion, and it explains everything better than I could:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...emon-discussion.3495992/page-185#post-5271389

I didn't see a single post afterwards disagreeing with it. There were either people agreeing with Deo-D for S-rank, or saying that it should be promoted for A+, but not mentioning anything about S-rank. So I'm guessing it's because people were being conservative about it.

So now that Deo-D is A+, I'm proposing the discussion I have yet to see: why not promoting Deo-D for S-Rank?
 

wishes

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Honestly, I feel as if Mega Gyarados should be placed in A+-Rank because it is huge threat at +1. It's really bulky, and somewhat hard to revenge kill because of this. Just for a quick calc, Scarf Keldeo cannot kill it at 100% health, Secret Sword never OHKOes (25% after SR however). Not to mention it's one of the few physical walls able to beat Mega Venusaur:
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 166-196 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It's a phenomenal Pokemon that is truly hard to stop after a DD, it also can set up reliably thanks to Intimidate before it Mega Evolves.
 

alexwolf

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I just find it inconvenient because it is more difficult to directly reply to those who post in the VR version of the thread and vice versa. I think that flipping back and forth between two threads on the same topic is an unnecessary hassle for everyone involved. If the mods are really going to go by the quality of the post and not the reputation of the poster, then there really is no need for two threads.
The problem is that because the previous thread was so cluttered, good players and posters often refrained from posting there because their posts often got ignored and good discussions are difficult to start, two problems that are solved in the viability ranking thread in VR.
alexwolf
Should we make all of the recent nominations again, or just continue discussing them as if this were just a continuation of the old thread?
Just continue discussing.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

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While I'd rather post in the VR version, I'd like to propose removing regular Mawile from the list entirely. Mawile (not Mega obviously) is a terrible Pokemon with terrible stats, very little use, and in general is garbage. While it could be used as an Iron Defense passer on Baton Pass teams, we have Scolipede and Scizor to pass Iron Defense and Swords Dance; both of which are actually good Pokemon that have other things like Speed or good stats overall. Vaporeon also has special bulk to make use of, unlike Mawile. Intimidate isn't and never was enough to justify using Mawile over other, more useful Baton Passers.

TL;DR: Get rid of regular Mawile

(I still disagree with moving Galvantula down, will get to that later)
 

Gary

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Honestly, I feel as if Mega Gyarados should be placed in A+-Rank because it is huge threat at +1. It's really bulky, and somewhat hard to revenge kill because of this. Just for a quick calc, Scarf Keldeo cannot kill it at 100% health, Secret Sword never OHKOes (25% after SR however). Not to mention it's one of the few physical walls able to beat Mega Venusaur:
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 166-196 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It's a phenomenal Pokemon that is truly hard to stop after a DD, it also can set up reliably thanks to Intimidate before it Mega Evolves.
Mega Gyarados is actually A+ rank in the VR version. I don't think the OP has been completely updated yet.
 
Fortress is a shadow of what he once was, not only has the 6th gen robbed him o much of his niche of "jack of all trades" in his ability to spin and set up harzards, it's introduced more dangerous threats to fortress as a hole, with tolon fame and physical threats such as mega pinsr who laugh and use it up as set up bait mroe so than previous generations and to add insult to injory the steel typing nef has robbed him of his dark/ghost resistances, even with the fairy resistance and hitting them se with it's stab it isn't remotely worth the value of loosing these, now two much more dangerous types.

I ask the question however, despite these flaws, why forretress is no longer in his old possession of c rank, nerfed he may be, but the niche, he still for fills and not every tam wants defog or can afford 2 pokemon to do the same job fortress can do in one set?
 

North

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Deo S in S-rank? i'm not so sure on that one. Deo S is a perfect lead poke, out speeding most scarfers and having taunt for the stealth rock leads and such. It can flawlessly set up stealth rocks and spikes almost 100% of the time if you are running the normal focus sash set, and that's the reason it was ubers last gen. Now in gen6 where hyper offense i feel isnt as strong where it was last gen, Deo S doesn't have a great fit on most teams. With defog being a thing now in almost every situation those entry hazards are gone in a second. And because Deo S is a suicide lead hazards cant come back. And now before someone brings up its movepool and its ability to go offensive, well it cant go offensive in my opinion. it has 95 Spa. That's tied for the lowest (With Clefable) for the lowest Spa of all pure special attackers in ou, and remember Clefable can set up. To wrap it up i say Deo S is a great entry hazard setter for the hyper offense that still lives in gen6, but is much much harder to user with defog on almost every team.



(i either just opened up peoples minds or i sound like an idiot)
 
(i either just opened up peoples minds or i sound like an idiot)
Life Orb Deo-S revenge kills tons of stuff. 95 SpA is not that low, and Psycho Boost hits so hard. Notably, it can outspeed and OHKO +1 X-zard.

It is also a good support mon, with its crazy speed guaranteeing Stealth Rock, Screens, Rain Dance, etc. Defog is an issue but there's Bisharp, and Deosharp is pretty popular on the upper ladder.
 
Deo S in S-rank? i'm not so sure on that one. Deo S is a perfect lead poke, out speeding most scarfers and having taunt for the stealth rock leads and such. It can flawlessly set up stealth rocks and spikes almost 100% of the time if you are running the normal focus sash set, and that's the reason it was ubers last gen. Now in gen6 where hyper offense i feel isnt as strong where it was last gen, Deo S doesn't have a great fit on most teams. With defog being a thing now in almost every situation those entry hazards are gone in a second. And because Deo S is a suicide lead hazards cant come back. And now before someone brings up its movepool and its ability to go offensive, well it cant go offensive in my opinion. it has 95 Spa. That's tied for the lowest (With Clefable) for the lowest Spa of all pure special attackers in ou, and remember Clefable can set up. To wrap it up i say Deo S is a great entry hazard setter for the hyper offense that still lives in gen6, but is much much harder to user with defog on almost every team. (i either just opened up peoples minds or i sound like an idiot)
I don't agree. Its main purpose is a revenge killer, and it's able to be an effective one with 180 Base speed. Also, 95/95 offenses are not terrible, and when they're backed by moves with high base powers like Psycho Boost and Superpower, things will get revenge killed by it. It's also able to run a special attack boosting nature instead of a speed boosting nature, so its mediocre special attack, fully invested, is similar to a Timid base 109. Not too shabby. Also, what you said about it not having boosting moves is false. It has Nasty Plot, which pairs very nicely with Psycho Boost.
 

North

Who gave Croven a trophy wtf!
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I don't agree. Its main purpose is a revenge killer, and it's able to be an effective one with 180 Base speed. Also, 95/95 offenses are not terrible, and when they're backed by moves with high base powers like Psycho Boost and Superpower, things will get revenge killed by it. It's also able to run a special attack boosting nature instead of a speed boosting nature, so its mediocre special attack, fully invested, is similar to a Timid base 109. Not too shabby. Also, what you said about it not having boosting moves is false. It has Nasty Plot, which pairs very nicely with Psycho Boost.
I never said it didnt have boosting moves, but try setting up with a Deo S, its so frail its almost impossible. u basically need to be up against a support poke or predict a switch
 
VR wiped the lower ranks, which I believe is a good idea but the current rankings in this thread should stay, so they can be used as a starting point. But all of C is super inflated right now, there's a lot of stuff in it that should either be dropped to D or removed entirely. Only a handful of things should go up. I posted about some of it earlier, but additionally:

Kabutops to B/B-: It's nightmarish under rain. It's +2 Rain and LO-boosted Waterfalls are so hard to tank unless they're resisted, and even then it's probably a 2HKO (its secondary STAB gives it good coverage anyway, with +2 Stone Edge OHKOing Rotom-W and other stuff.) With Swift Swim it can outspeed everything (including Deo-S,) including most scarfers. Plus, it resists/is neutral to most priority, notably Talonflame's Brave Bird. The only exception is Mach Punch. It has its own priority anyway.

On the bad side, it's walled by a couple things like Ferrothorn and Chesnaught. Some other stuff too, probably. It's also not that bulky but it doesn't matter much when you're so damned fast. It also *needs* rain, but rain offense is a really strong team type, and Kabutops is easily the best physical swift swimmer. Also it has rapid spin.

Ludicolo to B/B-: Same thing with Kabutops. It's super fast in rain, and has flawless Ice/Water/Grass/Fighting. The only things really capable of tanking it and its Rain-boosted hydro pumps and coverage are Mega Venusaur and bulky special walls like Chansey. It's RKed by Talonflame though which is a bummer.

Quagsire to B: This is invaluable for stall teams, as it can deal with a number of boosting sweepers. Its mediocre bulk is patched up with its great ability and with its typing, which only has one uncommon weakness. A lot has been said about it in the VR thread.


Honestly, in C rank we should be more harsh. 33 stuff in A, 39 stuff in B, over 50 stuff in C right now. D's defintion of "Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time." seems right for, like, half of the stuff in C. They're just so niche.

And non-mega Mawile should be dropped. I know it has a niche on baton pass teams but I've absolutely never seen it, even on the few BP teams I've ran into. In theory it sounds good, but there's much better choices for those teams.
 
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If anyone wants to argue the placement of Staraptor, go right ahead. I'll shoot you down faster than Scarfed Deo-S.
On topic, I'm totally in for dropping Mawile, it's utterly pointless without its Mega. It has no use in OU whatsoever (besides maybe tricking someone into thinking that's your Mega, and that's not viable at all)
 

alexwolf

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The list has been updated with the changes that happened in the VR thread, namely:<br />
<br />
Azumarill: A ---> A+
Mawile (Mega): A ---> A+
Chansey: B+ ---> A-
Dragonite: A ---> A-
Scizor (Mega): A ---> A+
Keldeo: A ---> A+
Rotom-W: A+ ---> A
Gengar: A ---> A-
Clefable: A- ---> A
Gyarados (Mega): A ---> A+
Hippowdon: A- ---> A
 
Okay, so this is just my personal look... Not based on usage or anything, but Porygon2 in C goes completely against what I've found in my own stall studies. While known for his setting of gravity, trick room and the lot, Pory2 has some unbelievable viability in this meta. Bolt beam coverage is as good as ever, and toxic stall still works satisfactory. Using Trace, Porygon2 gains even more ability in this meta. But let me show you what I've found with a physically defensive Pory2 running Discharge/Ice Beam/Toxic/Recover @Eviolite and trace.

Greninja: Pory2 steals protean... GG enemy team facing BoltBeam stab.
4 SpA Protean Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 240-284 (83.9 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 140-165 (37.4 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Garchomp-mega: Stealing sand force isn't useful. Getting Sand veil from Chomp might work, and rough skin turns this into an essential ohko.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 284-336 (79.3 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Sand: 135-159 (36 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
And in a completely impossible situation with the first but showing off anyways:
252+ SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 153-181 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Gyarados-mega
: Mold Breaker isn't useful vs Gyara but is nice to have on offhand situations later.
4 SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 98-116 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 84-100 (22.4 - 26.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after sandstorm damage

Mamoswine: Tracing thick fat is nice, but it should be spamming EQ at you. If anything, it makes a switch a tad easier. Mamos mostly don't run super power this generation, so this is an acceptable risk, and I could probably survive one. Pory2 uses toxic stall. Recover and Toxic go, no set up to fear. If anything, be cheeky and dodge some EQs by knowing it can't go to ice attacks or hit thick fat P2 who completely takes nothing from that.

252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 93-111 (24.8 - 29.6%)

Thundrus-i: Prankster recover/toxic. Nothing more to say.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 164-194 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 178-210 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Remember, P2 has prankster to outspeed the second focus blast.

Landorus-t: Intimidate lowers Lando's attacks, Ice beam destroys.
-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 67-79 (17.9 - 21.1%) damage
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 324-384 (84.8 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Rotom-w: Levitate is all around goodness, but not good vs rotom-w. This is something P2 simply walls and spams toxic at.
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 87-103 (23.2 - 27.5%)
4 SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 42-50 (13.8 - 16.4%)

Dragonite: Multiscale P2 is kind of impossible to take from full health. Good luck expecting Dnite to do anything with a 4x ice weakness.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 136-162 (41.9 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 272-324 (83.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 76-91 (20.3 - 24.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after sandstorm damage

Think P2 can't deal with Breloom? Let something else take sleep clause:

4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 204-242 (77.8 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 133-159 (35.5 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage

Have issues with toxic stall Gliscor? Steal poison heal, fear nothing from EQ and Ice beam back while keeping in perfect health.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 344-408 (97.1 - 115.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 54-64 (14.4 - 17.1%)

Check Landorus-i from full HP: If Focus Blast misses, you're left with a 100% Sheer Force Bolt beam attacker.
4 SpA Sheer Force Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 424-500 (132.5 - 156.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 283-335 (75.6 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Destroy Talonflame.
4 SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 164-194 (55 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 109-130 (29.1 - 34.7%)

Survive/Revenge +2 Mega Pinsir: I know that people like tri-attack to OHKO here, but really, after rocks, Pinsir-mega dies to P2 on a check.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 148-176 (54.4 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 255-301 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Latios tries to break you... Enjoy Levitate.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 192-227 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 124-148 (41 - 49%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Togekiss? Enjoy Serene Grace Ice Beam and Discharge.... Should toxic stall. Gave Toge Aura sphere just to show off.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 90-106 (24 - 28.3%)
4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 94-112 (25.1 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Keldeo has an SE fight attack, right? This is more a pinch check, but Discharge getting a para makes this for sure win.
4 SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 132-156 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 144-170 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Heatran may not be able to be killed, but it isn't doing anything to you.
4 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 57-68 (15.2 - 18.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after sandstorm damage

Oh btw, tracing unaware from Quagsire is nice, and this also counters unaware CM Clefable.


After seeing that, realize these are ALL OU. So please, can we at least get B-? This is a hilarious failure by OU pokemon to deal with a single P2 set.
 
I don't know. To me a funneling effect makes sense, as there are a lot more somewhat viable pokemon than there are broken or insanely good Pokemon. Also, I think a problem with the C ranks is a lot deserve to go up, including the ones you mentioned, plus Ampharos-M, Aerodactyl-M, Celebi, and Wobbuffet.

I agree about Mawile, but Staraptor? Do you really think B- is where it belongs? I truly believe its insane power, decent speed tier, and ability to work phenomenally with Pinsir and Talonflame make it B or B+.
Well I really meant trying to get Staraptor any lower than B-. And to be fair it does a little more credit, only walled by ONE Pokemon (Aegislash) as well as the points stated above. Plus not being 4x weak to Rock helps. (BUUURN) I find it a good alternative to TFlame if you already have a Fire type on your team (Charizard X/Y, Volcarona, Rotom-H, lots of choice)
 
Well I really meant trying to get Staraptor any lower than B-. And to be fair it does a little more credit, only walled by ONE Pokemon (Aegislash) as well as the points stated above. Plus not being 4x weak to Rock helps. (BUUURN) I find it a good alternative to TFlame if you already have a Fire type on your team (Charizard X/Y, Volcarona, Rotom-H, lots of choice)
Skarmory also does a good job, sans Final Gambit.
 

Vertex

my beautiful dark twisted curry
I really do not understand why Mega Banette is D Rank. It should honestly be C on par with Mega Houndoom. It can even absorb sleep in its normal form. It's not really that bad. It fits nicely in defensive cores that don't want Mega Charizard X (rare cases but ok).
  • Priority Destiny Bond
    • Azumarill is outpaced do to its stellar 75 Spe, so it can Destiny Bond before Aqua Jet on non-Max Speed variants
    • Completely stops any sweeper bar +2 Pinsir, and +2 Talonflame.
  • Priority Will-O-Wisp
    • This takes its bulk to a different level: it takes 64 / 75 bulk to an extreme where it can actually be useful
    • Laughs at physical sweepers like Mega Gyarados & Dragonite
  • Has an amazing 165 Attack
    • Doesn't seem like much, but remember that it won't be set-up bait for special sweepers like Manaphy and also uses Destiny Bond + Phantom Force combo to lock your opponent into a die or suicide position
    • 0 Atk Mega Banette Phantom Force vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 151-178 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Problems? There are two problems that Mega Banette suffers from that make it one of the worst Mega 'mons.
A) Poor stat distribution means that it cannot take repeated hits.
B) Predictable. The most used set is Phantom Force / Pain Split / Will-O-Wisp / Destiny Bond and Prankster doesn't activate on the turn you Mega Evolve, meaning it should focus on coming on something slower like Ferrothorn.

Take a look at the freakin' definition of C Rank please: "C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks."

Mega Banette only faces competition with Mega Charizard X actually as its offensive role of spreading burns and stopping sweeps. The two things it has over Mega Charizard X is Destiny Bond and priority WOW. Keeping Mega Banette with utter garbage like Whismicott and Weezing is an insult. It cannot execute its strategy repeatedly do to its frailty, but I highly doubt that it is "more trouble than the majority of its time". Mega Banette for C

Fair point. I was just showing what it could do, not necessarily what every Deoxys-S will do. My main point was just that Deoxys-S is mainly offensive, as its support sets are typically not as good as Deoxys-D's.

* Also, Charizard-X usually runs adamant, allowing +SpA Deoxys to still outspeed it at +1.
I feel Deoxys-S is one of the most thretening pokemon at the moment. It literally fills three important roles: RK'er, Stealth Rock user, and semi-decent wall-breaker. the last role is actually unexpected. It's funny how many people leave in there 248/0 Rotom-W in on Deoxys-S and taking around 85% damage expecting to take like 40 from Psycho Boost. It's really strong, even with a base 95 SpA. The hazard lead set is mostly outclassed by Deoxys-D, but it can completely crush Tyranitar with Superpower which is the most common lead against Deoxys-S this generation. I've used Psycho Boost over this too. If it manages to get SR + Spikes and still survive. I'd rather nuke the living crap out of something then get an extra hazard if they don't resist Psycho Boost. For rain teams: it completely wreck. It uses SR, then Rain Dance, then dies. After that, your team has 7 turns to destroy your opponent. Rain teams are very powerful this generation as shown in SPL and this is the reason I believe Kabutops and Kingdra should be bumped up to B-. Deoxys-S has Dual Screens too which I guess could be useful, but I'd rather use Espeon or Klefki for that. The former has Magic Bounce to protect them too from Defog (yes, it protects them). Deoxys-S is a powerful and extremely versatile 'mon in this metagame, I cannot believe it's not S-Rank

Moltres can leave this viability ranking thread for goodness sake. Now that Genesect and Mega Lucario are gone, it's absolute trash and I should come and go call Waste Management because I need my trash picked up. It's overloading. Everything else about it is self-explanatory.
If anyone wants to argue the placement of Staraptor, go right ahead. I'll shoot you down faster than Scarfed Deo-S.
On topic, I'm totally in for dropping Mawile, it's utterly pointless without its Mega. It has no use in OU whatsoever (besides maybe tricking someone into thinking that's your Mega, and that's not viable at all)
Mawile is used on Baton Pass teams due to its great typing and Intimidate, if you are wondering, so it has and is keeping its rank for that reason.
Well I really meant trying to get Staraptor any lower than B-. And to be fair it does a little more credit, only walled by ONE Pokemon (Aegislash) as well as the points stated above. Plus not being 4x weak to Rock helps. (BUUURN) I find it stood alternative to TFlame if you already have a Fire type on your team (Charizard X/Y, Volcarona, Rotom-H, lots of choice)
I'm agreeing with finncent1. Staraptor is amazing this generation just because it fits into amazing cores and pretty much every Mega EVO has benefited from its wall-breaking capabilities. Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and Garchomp are its best partners and they are all super common. It's easily B Rank.

Second to last, Ferrothorn needs to move to A-. It's typing is amazing letting it wall a majority of the metagame Mega Gyarados, Manaphy, Talonflame (most people let go of Flare Blitz these days), Greninja, Scizor, Rotom-W, and Azumarill. It can set-up Spikes with free turn and stall and quickly drain HP with Leech Seed + Protect. It's is used a lot on hazard based stall teams, which is why it's so good.

Finally, I cannot say this without words, but Raikou has to be added to B Rank. The reason it's getting so much SPL usage is because it completely sets up all over Thundurus-I, the most commonly used mon in the metagame. It can set up op on Aegislash too which is great. If it gets a CM, your opponent will have trouble killing it because everything that outpaces it except Mega Aerodactyl relies on Special attacking moves which cannot revenge kill +1 SpD Raikou. AV is another good set since it pivots through the entire game with Volt Switch and uses its good coverage to maul threats. It is also very bulky. CM Raikou even resists Brave Bird and Bullet Punch and takes pitiful damage from Mach Punch meaning that it can easily sweep teams. Wait till this thing gets, Volt Absorb; it will be amazing.

Okay, I could go for some more, but if I continue this post, my PC will probably freeze because I can barely type now. :(

Code:
Things that should move, but to lazy to explain.

Honchcrow --> Keep D / Remove
Infernape --> C- / D
Tornadus-T --> B+
Volcarona --> B+
Latios --> A+
 
Last edited:
Code:
Things that should move, but to lazy to explain.

Honchcrow --> C- (i'm not kidding)
Infernape --> C- / D
Tornadus-T --> B
Volcarona --> B+
I feel bad for Infernape. Massively outclassed by TFlame, and MegaZardX for Physical Fire Type. Looks like It'll be wrecking UU soon (That's my prediction). Completely agree with Volcy. The amount of sweeps I've done with it is absurd thanks to Giga Drain healing Life Orb recoil along with Fiery Dance boosting its SpecAtt to Mewtwo levels. And Quiver Dance helps its "lacklustre" 100 base speed.
The others.... Yeah I have no input on those. Surprised Tornadus T isn't seeing more usage despite it being Über last gen (Which shows how much Talonflame/MegaZard/MegaPinsir have changed the meta.)
 
I wholeheartedly agree with moving Volcarona up to at least a B+. With how prominent Excadrill is, Stealth Rock is particularly easy to remove, and Giga Drain remedies a lot of its sustain issues. After only one Quiver Dance, its stats are high enough to blast its way though a large portion of the metagame. It is never completely walled with enough setup, simply because of the raw power provided by boosts from Fiery Dance. However, it has problems with particularly strong neutral/super-effective priority, particularly Sucker Punch off of Bisharp and M-Mawile and attacks from M-Pinsir, Talonflame, and Azumarill. Still, most of these attacks still have a chance of procing Flame Body, which makes the opposing Pokemon easier to remove by a teammate.

In regards to Tornadus-T, I think the main reason it isn't overwhelming anymore is that there's no longer permanent rain to abuse with Hurricane, so it no longer has a reliable offensive move for dealing heavy damage.
 
The list has been updated with the changes that happened in the VR thread, namely:<br />
<br />
Azumarill: A ---> A+
Mawile (Mega): A ---> A+
Chansey: B+ ---> A-
Dragonite: A ---> A-
Scizor (Mega): A ---> A+
Keldeo: A ---> A+
Rotom-W: A+ ---> A
Gengar: A ---> A-
Clefable: A- ---> A
Gyarados (Mega): A ---> A+
Hippowdon: A- ---> A
I'm pretty much okay with this entire change except one thing; Rotom-W. Rotom-W deserves to stand at A+, this is the very same pokemon that people were once arguing for S-rank. Perusing the VR thread, the arguments against Rotom-W are "it doesn't have reliable recovery" and "its checks are everywhere". Rotom-W acts best as a pivot. Not as a wall or as an offensive behemoth, but as a pivot with brilliant typing and ability that effectively leaves him with one uncommon weakness in grass. As a pivot, he pretty much gets to Volt Switch whenever he wants. Only things that can reliably stop him are Lanturn, Quagsire, and Gastrodon. Everything else that could stop a Volt Switch risks getting a Hydro Pump to the face. He is easily THE best Volt Switcher in the game as he can volt switch with little to no risk whatsoever. There's literally nothing (except for the aforementioned 3 pokemon above) that can stop Rotom-W from doing his job as a pivot.

Aside from snagging momentum, he can also cripple physical attackers with burn. Of course, skilled players would probably foresee the Will-O-Wisp coming and prevent their physical attacker from being burnt, but in the end, something still has to take the WoW. Not only is Rotom-W the best volt switcher in OU, he's also arguably the best user of Will-O-Wisp too. The utility packed within these two moves alone are insane. Add Rotom-W's second STAB (Hydro pump) into the mix and pretty much every pokemon in A+ would hesitate switching in on Rotom-W (M-Venusaur don't like them burns, nor does Kyurem-B or M-Gyrados).

Rotom-W's fourth move is usually Rest or Pain Split. While both of them are not quite as reliable as something like Roost, they're both ways of increasing Rotom-W's longevity. Rotom-W may not be able to tank as many hits as a wall like Hippowodon, but do not make the mistake of identifying Rotom-W as a wall. He usually comes in to cripple something or volt switch out, only using Hydro Pump when a ground pokemon not named Gastrodon or Quagsire think they can stop the impending Volt Switch. Rotom-W is a pivot pokemon first, and he makes for a darn fine one. Do you know what's also a great pivot pokemon? Landorus-T, who's A+. While nothing is immune to bug (thus nothing can stop a U-turn), I feel that Landorus-T isn't quite as good as a pivot as Rotom-W due to his weaknesses of water and ice. Yes, I'm ignoring his other sets, but I feel that Landorus-T and his bulky pivot set alone is enough to warrant his A+ ranking (granted, his versatility is obviously a plus, but Rotom-W also has some versatility since he can run a Trick+Scarf set).
 
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