Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

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alexwolf

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Credit to PK Gaming for the format


Welcome to the official OU Viability Rankings topic. You should know the drill by now; In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. This thread and the one in the Victory Road subforum will be using the same rankings, with the updates being posted first here. Posts in both threads will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.
  • EX: Garchomp can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Forretress can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Skarmory can be can also be ranked in B tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples.
Finally, here are the people that have the final say on what gets moved in the ranking list (as in, the people that gather the community's input to make final decisions, as well as being well informed players themselves):

Below are the definitions of each rank, and they should be read be anyone that wants to participate in the discussion of Pokemon's ranks in OU:

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.


And here is the list of Pokemon that should be the focus of discussion for the next days:
Whatever you like


XY OU Ranking Tier List

(In alphabetical order)

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

Charizard (Mega-X)
Greninja
Keldeo
Latios

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

A+ Rank

Azumarill
Bisharp
Charizard (Mega-Y)
Clefable
Garchomp
Gardevoir (Mega)
Gengar
Heatran
Landorus-T
Landorus
Latias
Mew
Pinsir (Mega)
Scizor (Mega)
Talonflame
Thundurus
Venusaur (Mega)

A Rank

Dragonite
Excadrill
Ferrothorn
Gliscor
Gyarados (Mega)
Heracross (Mega)

Mamoswine
Manectric (Mega)
Medicham (Mega)
Rotom-W
Slowbro
Terrakion

A- Rank

Aerodactyl (Mega)
Diggersby
Jirachi
Kyurem-B
Magnezone
Manaphy
Politoed
Tyranitar
Tyranitar (Mega)


B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

B+ Rank

Alakazam (Mega)
Breloom
Celebi
Chansey
Gyarados
Hawlucha
Hippowdon
Kabutops
Kingdra
Raikou
Rhyperior
Skarmory
Starmie
Suicune
Tornadus-T
Victini

B Rank

Alomomola
Amoonguss
Chesnaught
Crawdaunt
Lucario
Mandibuzz
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lucario-qc-0-3.3502645/']
Quagsire[/URL]
Omastar
Scizor
Scolipede
Zapdos

B- Rank

Azelf
Conkeldurr
Cresselia
Doublade
Empoleon
Garchomp (Mega)
Gothitelle
Houndoom (Mega)
Klefki
Staraptor
Sylveon
Togekiss
Weavile

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

C+ Rank

Ampharos (Mega)
Cobalion
Entei
Gastrodon
Goodra
Infernape
Magneton
Sableye
Tangrowth
Toxicroak
Wobbuffet

C Rank

Aggron (Mega)
Alakazam
Blastoise (Mega)
Bronzong
Chandelure
Ditto
Espeon
Froslass
Lanturn
Mienshao
Porygon2
Rotom-H
Seismitoad
Shuckle
Slowking
Smeargle
Tentacruel
Thundurus-T

C- Rank

Absol (Mega)
Blissey
Diancie
Exploud
Gourgeist-Small
Haxorus
Ludicolo
Noivern
Tornadus
Volcarona
Zygarde

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

Cloyster
Cofagrigus
Dugtrio
Gorebyss

Heracross
Hydreigon
Jellicent
Meloetta
Metagross
Salamence
Venomoth
Whimsicott


''CONCLUSION REACHED'' POKEMON: Pokemon in this list have reached a conclusive ideal ranking, so unless the metagame changes towards them or there is something about them that hasn't been said, discussion about them is disallowed.
  • Landorus
  • Azumarill
  • Mega Charizard X
  • Keldeo
  • Thundurus
  • Greninja
  • Latios

BLACKLISTED POKEMON: Pokemon that are not only unviable in OU, but also make the thread shitty whenever they are brought up because most people that argue about them getting ranked are inexperienced players using bad arguments.
  • Florges
  • Donphan
  • Heliolisk
  • Darmanitan
Rules
  • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated
  • No flaming
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
  • No talk about editing the OFFICIAL Smogon tier lists.
  • PKGaming is amazing. This is an undisputed fact.
Happy posting ♪♪
 
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So continuing off the last thread's discussion, in my opinion Charizard-Y requires too much support for doing the exact same thing that other pokes do without said support. Mega Medicham doesn't need SR removed. Meda Medicham doesn't Pursuit support. Mega Medicham has access to priority. Those points, minus the priority bit also go for Mega Gardevoir. I wouldn't mind Char Y in A cause it's so 1 dimensional yet it doesn't totally exceed in its role.
 
Mega Aerodactyl is freakin' amazing in this new metagame. Its coverage is absolutely ridiculous. It 2HKOes everything on HO teams minimum and stall teams are forcing there Chansey and Quagsire than can be removed by lure 'mons like Freeze Dry Mamoswine for example for the former. Everything else is gone. It's a such a reliable win condition to use. It's blazing speed lets it use Adamant nature and avoid the use of a revenge killer with mega Charizard X the only main threat to beat notable outpacing which can be dealt with using Tyranitar. It needs to go to B+.
 
B+ ---> A-

Suicune basically says gg if it can setup. It's the death of Stall and not much can honestly OHKO it, only a select few extremely powerful hits. CroCune really pulls its weight and Scald is what makes the set imo. But, I'd like to not make this paragraph all about CroCune, so let me discuss a set I've played with and like a lot more: LO Tailwind. LO Tailwind enables Suicune to take an offensive approach with its usable bulk and it can provide large setup for its teammates. I use it when I use Suicune and I do think it deserves more recognition. Anyways, it's definitely deserving of moving up from B+ to A- for these reasons and also reasons others have provided.

B+ ---> A-

Tornadus-T is crazy good. Regenerator negates Stealth Rock and U-turn coupled with this is just amazing. I often hear the complaint about the either 'low accuracy, high power' or 'high accuracy, low power' argument, and honestly, I don't count this as an argument. Sure, Hurricane is risky, but it hits very hard and doesn't miss all the time, it has the same accuracy as Focus Blast which many other Pokemon use without complaint. Knock Off provides solid utility to add onto this as well, and this also can work with Air Slash because defensive Pokemon will not enjoy the removal of their Leftovers. Overall, it's really good from my experience and definitely deserves a bump upwards.
 
clefable s: easily the most defining pokemon of balance and incredible versus almost all matchups whether it be stallbreaking ability or resistances; incredibly hard to check and counter with the banning of many threats that impeded it and requires specialized counters e.g taunt tran; common checks like scizor and excadril do not appreciate flamethrower

garchomp a: i don't really like it enough to be a, but that's probably personal bias. oftentimes it's hard to justify it instead of landorus unless you need a scarfer for zard-x and thundurus; sr is only good with some kind of physical spam or a rotom-w weak team (zard-y too i guess.........) landorus is just typically better

greninja a: lost its main defensive niche but still powerful as a water type of course. checking gengar is still huge and it has a free moveslot now to play with

mega gyarados a-: similar to greninja except ferrothorn is ridiculously common now and it checks even less as gengar can wisp it. not the best choice in the current meta

slowbro b: it's hard to justify anyway given that it kinda of treads on lati@s's / azumarill's territory and it's slow and kinda bleh. regen is cool sure but i've never found myself leaning toward slowbro on almost any team as a different water type usually works better

tyranitar mega a: it's probably on par with gardevoir / hera in terms of mega usability and the former are much more common. losing aegislash checking abilities made it fall off some and only 5 turn sand means you can't use excadrill very well which blows

mamoswine / mega medicham a-: neither of these pokemon feel like they belong in the a tier; the others are far more splashable and easily thrown on teams. they are also far more consistent
 
Seconding the Megadactyl promotion. It's an incredibly solid mon to have on your side. There will ALWAYS be things for it to do in a game with very minimal support (likes rocks gone for survivability, but then Roost sets even mitigate this a bit. You've also got to be sweating wondering which coverage moves it's packing, putting on lots of pressure and forcing your opponent to scout a lot if they don't want to gamble, giving you some momentum a lot of the time. Mega Aerodactyl for B+
 
Mega Aerodactyl is freakin' amazing in this new metagame. Its coverage is absolutely ridiculous. It 2HKOes everything on HO teams minimum and stall teams are forcing there Chansey and Quagsire than can be removed by lure 'mons like Freeze Dry Mamoswine for example for the former. Everything else is gone. It's a such a reliable win condition to use. It's blazing speed lets it use Adamant nature and avoid the use of a revenge killer with mega Charizard X the only main threat to beat notable outpacing which can be dealt with using Tyranitar. It needs to go to B+.
I agree with this. Not too much else to say other than the fact that it can also run an effective Stallbreaking set as well as its normal offensive one which is already very good.
 
K I think this may or may not be crazy

->B

It has great coverage, speed, pursuit, priority, and the fact that one of its greatest checks has left the tier that make it worthy of B imo. It has one of the speediest Knock Offs in the game(the faster Knock Offs belong to ubers, Deo-A, Deo-N, and Deo-S)and overall the speediest Knock Off in OU. Ice is such a great offensive typing in this meta, and it has priority to use it with. It has access to Pursuit, but I wouldn't use it. Basically: Ice Punch, Knock Off, Ice Shard, Low Kick is its best set in OU. It hits everything in OU except Azumarill neutrally, and it fucks offensive teams sideways. Its late at night, don't hate me for this nom ;~;
 
Doublade in D sounds damn rude to me. Even without eviolite (shouts out to CTC) this thing is bulky as hell, and Aegislash's typing is still as great. Yeah you won't have a great offensive pressure, but it's still good enough imo. It could be C / C+, not a lot of people have actually tested it to reveal his true potential, so C is good enough.

Empoleon sounds underrated, i never actually tried it, but the D rank is the "don't plat this shit" rank for me, and Empoleon's typing / access to defog / scald / SR doesn't sound really bad. I don't think the defiant SD sets would be that good at all but it could be at least fun. I might try it.

Hawlucha in C is a bit ridiculous when things like Venomoth are C+. Entei is still way too high for what its worth. C+ at least.

The higher ranks are pretty good, the lower ones are a bit of a mess though.
 
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wow, is keldeo really S ? this thing is more than good but predictable as hell. it can't break a stall because you always have to face alomomola, megavenusaur, amoonguss, slowbro etc and against an offense you are checked by lati@s, azumarill, dragonite and outspeeded by thundurus, greninja (except if scarfed of course) and talonflame. of course keld has some great resistances allowing it to check mega scizor and bisharp but S is a bit much.

Keldeo S -> A+
 
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Dice is pretty much right. Clefable in S could be the next discussion, even more if ChardX is in suspect. Great typing...yeah mono fairy is a great typing+both abilities are viable even though magic guard is way better because softboiled and stuff+pretty versatile movepool with SR / Twave / Fblast / Wish / Stored power...and you can put it on every team with ease., being able to check some annoying stuff like Conkeldurr, Greninja (the calm spread checks him pretty well)
or Latios.

Clefable is really "metagame defining", you know, the rise of fairies and all that.

Edit: Also cosigning the Keldeo drop, really good typing / stats and best specs in the metagame but everyone has a way of dealing with it now and it was a good "sucker punch absorber", now that mawile is gone, it loses his role a bit. A+.

Edit2: Landorus S sounds like it's a bit too much too, S should really be an exception in the metagame, Landorus is great don't get me wrong but A+ is good enough.
 
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Before I make this nomination, please read through my entire post before dismissing it and calling me a nerd :).


Torterra: Unranked ---> D Rank
Torterra. Definitely not a Pokemon you see often in OU, and even when you do you'll see it and think: wtf? what a noob using a shitty starter lol. And, for the most part, you're correct. Torterra is NOT a great Pokemon by any means, but I'm aiming to try and explain how I'm not crazy for actually nominating this. Let me try and break it down. Torterra is a Pokemon with a cool typing, nice stats, and a large movepool. It's held back by the fact it's outclassed by all other Ground-types to an extent (Think Landorus-T and Hippowdon). I've talked about this with alexwolf on IRC, and this is what we broke it down too:

Pros over Landorus-T:
  • Reliable recovery.
  • Higher Special Defense.
  • Reliable STAB attacks (Landorus-T lacks a Flying-type STAB move)
  • Grass-typing enables it to take on Water-types.
Pros over Hippowdon:
  • Counters Azumarill, Kabutops, and Breloom.
  • Can actually aim to Speed creep, such as for things like Tyranitar.
  • Ability doesn't hurt its teammates (unless Sand offense).
Cons over both:
  • Pales in comparison to physical walling.
  • Additional Fire- and Flying-type weaknesses.
  • Slower than Landorus-T but not fast enough to make a HUGE impact.
  • Useless ability.
  • Main recovery is cut off in Sand and Rain.
  • Lower Attack than both.
  • Fails to check specific Pokemon, like Char X or Thundurus (which both can do)
  • Outclassed in general, really.
So you see, it has a few small select niches and a whole lot of cons. So you may be asking, why would this piece of shit be ranked anyways? Well, it's a nice Pokemon with a specific niche that enables it to make a tiny, miniscule, small, miniature, puny splash into OU. It has the few select niches of:
  • Setting Stealth Rock.
  • Countering Azumarill is amazing.
  • Reliable recovery.
  • Nice bulk.
Now, this may not be convincing, so I bring up the argument of Weezing being ranked. Weezing didn't have a set niche besides countering Mega Mawile, and that's why it was ranked. Surely countering a top tier threat is worth a rank, no? Maybe not only this, but it's a big enough niche for it to be ranked imo. NEVER SHOULD IT EVER GO ANY HIGHER THAN D. Let me just set that in stone, please. And do note, I'm not suggesting it be put in C- or anything (huge stretch lol), I'm not saying it should be S Rank, what I'm saying is that Torterra has a small niche and it basically IS the D Rank definition:
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.
The bolded portions describe everything in this post, in my honest opinion. And I know this is a very silly suggestion to some, but I do wholeheartedly think that that Torterra has a set niche and deserves to be ranked in D Rank.

Also, here's the Azumarill calcs for those wondering:
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torterra: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torterra: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 0 Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 336-396 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
  • 0 Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 336-396 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
And usually, hazards will be off, so I'm standing by that it does counter Azumarill. Also, if it's locked into ANY other move, the 2HKO is avoided, so this is a huge factor. One last thing, AV sets flat out lose and they're more common, but this demonstrates maximum power.

Thanks for reading, and please don't instantly dismiss Torterra! :).
 
Dice is pretty much right. Clefable in S could be the next discussion, even more if ChardX is in suspect. Great typing...yeah mono fairy is a great typing+both abilities are viable even though magic guard is way better because softboiled and stuff+pretty versatile movepool with SR / Twave / Fblast / Wish / Stored power...and you can put it on every team with ease., being able to check some annoying stuff like Conkeldurr, Greninja (the calm spread checks him pretty well)
or Latios.

Clefable is really "metagame defining", you know, the rise of fairies and all that.

Edit: Also cosigning the Keldeo drop, really good typing / stats and best specs in the metagame but everyone has a way of dealing with it now and it was a good "sucker punch absorber", now that mawile is gone, it loses his role a bit. A+.
clefable s: easily the most defining pokemon of balance and incredible versus almost all matchups whether it be stallbreaking ability or resistances; incredibly hard to check and counter with the banning of many threats that impeded it and requires specialized counters e.g taunt tran; common checks like scizor and excadril do not appreciate flamethrower
IMO, Clefable is far from S. I'm thinking it's more of an A/A- pokemon right now, since it's worse in the current post-aegi meta. It's a great mon, but it's simply just not bulky enough to be great.

Let's list the biggest threats in the tier:
Keldeo:
Beats clefable no matter what spread is being used

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 292-345 (74.1 - 87.5%)
Specs scald 2HKOs this set, as does scarf hydropump
Specs Pump also 2HKOs specially defensive set

Landorus:
Beats clefable no matter what spread is being used

2HKOs with earthpower, even can get a OHKO with sludgewave.
Even specially defensive still loses to landorus

Terrakion:
Beats clefable no matter what spread is being used

CB gets an easy 2HKO, LO also gets a 20% chance to 2HKO with clefable at full health (252/252+ def set)

Azumarill:
Beats clefable no matter what spread is being used

gets 60-70% with a CB playrough on the physically defensive set

Latios:
Physically defensive clefable can check latios, but not the specially defensive

THundurus:
Specially defensive clefable can check thundurus, but not physically defensive

Mega Heracross:
Beats clefable no matter what set is being used

physically defensive gets 2HKO'd by rockblast/bullet seed if it gets 1 crit out of 10 its.

Mega gardevoire:
Beats clefable no matter what set is being used

Mega Cham:
Beats clefable no matter what set is being used

Pinsir/CharX/CharY:
Rape, my god

Even scarftran will trainwreck clefable with flashcannon. It doesn't need a niche taunt set.

Clefable is nice for switching into threats like rotom-W (on the decline btw), but in the offensive meta today, it's practically a deadweight and a free switch in to things like bisharp. I'll concede that it's a good check for greninja, and gyarados, and the meta's best answer to rotom-W.... but what else? It checks nearly none of the overpowered threats in the A/A+/S tier, and you can thank it's shoddy defenses for that with 95/73 defenses. Most teams are offensive, and will easily get rid of clefable very early in the game.



Clefable for A-
 
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I don't really see what's the point to rank a mon just to say "look, it's subpar to every ground type in the OU metagame right now", we don't need to put any more name imo, even more in the D (D for "Don't play that stuff") section.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torterra: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

What a check lol.

Btw Conkeldurr in C+ is really low, this pokemon is actually really good, mawile+aegislash ban will make him rise i think, and C+ is harsh.

Clefable for A-
Landorus can't tank an ice beam from greninja, do you think it should be dropped to the C+ rank? You need to enlight us about that, we seems to think that Clefable is worth an S ranking, how dumb are we?
 
Charizard X==>A+
Zard X is still a good mon, but not S-Rank. Its checks and counters including Azumarill, heatran, Slowbro, Landorus-T, etc. are getting more and more popular, making it much harder to sweep. It isn't to hard to revenge kill either, with Pokemon such as Talonflame, CS Chomp and Sand Rush Excadrill being able to outspeed and OHKO +1 Zard after SR. Wisp is probably its best set, but it isn't really hard to kill or take advantage of. Residual damage from SR and Flare blitz recoil will also cut its sweep most of the time.

Mega Absol==> C+/C
Mega absol is pretty bad. Its frail as shit and loses to several important mons such as Clefable, Azumarill, and Keldeo. Thanks to its frailty, it can't swatch into most SR users without dying in the process, undermining it Magic Bounce ability. Consuming a Mega slot is also pretty bad.

Sharpedo==>Unranked
  • Frail as shit
  • Doesn't hit hard enough
  • Easy to wall
  • outclassed by several other cleaners
  • weak to priority
 

Thugly Duckling

I play TCG now
Okay hopefully this great Pokemon becomes OU


Raikou: B Rank -----> A/A- Rank

Offensively able to check Bird Spam, Double Genie (both Thundurus and Landorus are S Rank mons), AND ZardY is just awesome. Raikou is fast, has a good STAB move, has good Special Attack, great coverage with BoltBeam, and can utilize both Choice Sets and Calm Mind sets very effectively. The SubCM set is only hard walled by dedicated special walls and Unaware users, which can easily be remedied by pairing Raikou with a stallbreaker. Raikou is also a solid replacement for Mega-Manectric, and is one of the several mons that has greatly benefitted from the Aegislash ban. IMO this mon is just great, and is one of my personal favorites to use in XY OU.
 
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Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
Mega Absol==> C+/C
Mega absol is pretty bad. Its frail as shit and loses to several important mons such as Clefable, Azumarill, and Keldeo. Thanks to its frailty, it can't swatch into most SR users without dying in the process, undermining it Magic Bounce ability. Consuming a Mega slot is also pretty bad.
Your argument makes no sense. Absol has Iron Tail and Thunderbolt to trounce those threats, and its magic bounce still benefits it regardless of fraility. There's nothing wrong with consuming a mega slot, if that were inherently bad as you have stated then all megas would be shit, which makes no sense.

If you were to say that it needs about 6 moveslots to actually take on the metagame, its a bit too weak to OHKO enough threats to mask its lack of defenses like Greninja, and it's overall inferior to other megas offering little over them I might agree though..
 

I know this is a big leap, but I'd like Salamence to move up from D --> C+.
The biggest argument against Salamence is that it is outclassed by the other Dragon Dancers (Mega Charizard X in particular). However, the cool thing about Mence is that its abilities make it stand out and it can carry an item (preferably Lum Berry), unlike the three Mega Dragon Dancers. With these niches in mind, the best Pokemon to really compare Salamence to on paper is Gyarados, who shares Salamence's abilties and is viable with or without its Mega Stone. The Offensive Dragon Dance set with Moxie is the best to compare Gyarados to Salamence with, so I'll start with that. While the set is good and 2HKOs most of the tier at +1, it greatly struggles with physically bulky Pokemon like Skarmory, Ferrothorn and Rotom-W anyway. Salamence can gets past all of them and more with this set (which I don't think I've seen, coverage-wise):
Salamence @ Lum Berry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Blast
- Stone Edge/Earthquake
Stone Edge isn't commonly seen on Salamence, but it works so well with Dragon + Fire coverage and helps a lot against Zapdos and Togekiss and will 2HKO Heatran after Stealth Rock. Fire Blast helps it beat Steel types, which Gyarados has trouble with as a whole. However, it still has problems with most Fairies and Quagsire will wall it (like it does to every other Dragon Dancer).
What about MegaZard X then? Obviously, Zard is better, but again, Lum Berry and Moxie make all the difference, allowing it to not be stopped by Thundurus-I's Thunder Wave or Sableye's Will-o-wisp (yes, I know Zard is immune to burn lol) or worn down by Toxic damage. Moxie also allows it to get stronger with each kill, something only Gyarados can do as a Dragon Dancer, allowing it to have an easier time against things it wouldn't OHKO or 2HKO normally, like Azumarill, Sp. Def Rotom-W, weakened defensive Rotom-W and Chansey, for example. As a small point, it also takes no recoil from its attacks, so that can be handy.
Salamence also has major weaknesses, however, like being weaker to priority than pretty much every other Dragon Dancer, having fewer set-up opportunities (without Intimidate) and being walled by Hippo, Clefable, Sylveon and Quagsire.
With all this in mind, Salamence fits well in C+ (or C) rank, as it is not completely eclipsed by the other Dragon Dancers, has notable niches thanks to its abilities and item, and just works well in battle most of the time, but has a couple crippling flaws and faces stiff competition with the Dragon Dancers in the S and A ranks.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

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Imo, saying Clefable should be A- is ridiculous, there's absolutely no way whatsoever that it should drop, and I wouldn't mind if it moves up to S. In fact, I think Clefable is broken, but I'll save that for a later time. Of course it can't really counter some of the S, A+, or A mons but it can definitely check them; even if it gets 2HKOed it's pretty difficult to OHKO it beyond Bisharp's Iron Head or something lol. It checks Keldeo nicely because it dents with Moonblast, same with Terrakion. 114, your post is honestly a massive exaggeration, because those Pokemon will have difficulty OHKOing Clef, and even then, Clefable can always retaliate with Moonblast. Let's not forget that after Clefable nabs a Calm Mind boost or two (most Clefable run CM), it's basically almost impossible to kill, and it can retaliate with Moonblast, or something like Flamethrower or Stored Power. Clefable isn't meant to take on pure wallbreakers and counter them. Unaware is a clutch ability that makes it impossible to set up on Clefable, and after some CM's you basically can't break it. Magic Guard isn't bad either seeing as how you're now immune to Toxic and burn damage. This thing's typing is quite good, so it can switch into Outrages and Close Combats pretty well and proceed to do work. As Dice said, the best ways to handle it are specialized stuff like Taunt Heatran, everything else can get worn down or beaten by something like Flamethrower.

Clefable is absolutely deserving of A+, and putting it in S wouldn't be a bad idea either. It's absolutely meta defining and you need to carry at least two checks to the thing.

Indifferent on Mega Absol, disagree with moving Mence up, it's outclassed, Sharpedo is awful and should definitely be removed, blah blah.
 
IMO, Clefable is far from S. I'm thinking it's more of an A/A- pokemon right now, since it's worse in the current post-aegi meta. It's a great mon, but it's simply just not bulky enough to be great.
Clefable has actually gotten much better now that both Aegislash and Mega Mawile are no longer in the tier, as they both resisted its STAB and could outspeed and KO with Iron Head or Flash Cannon (or another STAB move depending on how weak Clef was) which means that Clefable has lost 2 extremely common and menacing checks/counters. As long as either of those were still alive on the opponents team, Clefable simply couldn't sweep and you'd only get at most 1 KO before being forced out, and switching into Aegislash or Mega Maw was never a comfortable task.

Since there are fewer viable steel types now, Clefable also doesn't have as greater need for Fire coverage anymore (even though it's still definitely good) and it can therefore potentially free up that slot for a support move like Heal bell or Stealth Rock to further increase its usefulness. Clefable might not be S worthy, but it's definitely not A- worthy and moving it down now that the best mon in the tier has been banned which also happened to be one of the best checks to it, would make no sense. Clef should stay in A+, the meta keeps getting better and better for it.
 

Adamant Zoroark

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Charizard X==>A+
Zard X is still a good mon, but not S-Rank. Its checks and counters including Azumarill, heatran, Slowbro, Landorus-T, etc. are getting more and more popular, making it much harder to sweep. It isn't to hard to revenge kill either, with Pokemon such as Talonflame, CS Chomp and Sand Rush Excadrill being able to outspeed and OHKO +1 Zard after SR. Wisp is probably its best set, but it isn't really hard to kill or take advantage of. Residual damage from SR and Flare blitz recoil will also cut its sweep most of the time.

Mega Absol==> C+/C
Mega absol is pretty bad. Its frail as shit and loses to several important mons such as Clefable, Azumarill, and Keldeo. Thanks to its frailty, it can't swatch into most SR users without dying in the process, undermining it Magic Bounce ability. Consuming a Mega slot is also pretty bad.

Sharpedo==>Unranked
  • Frail as shit
  • Doesn't hit hard enough
  • Easy to wall
  • outclassed by several other cleaners
  • weak to priority
You know, I feel like you're not giving Mega Absol much credit. For now, I'll set aside the fact that Absol is my favorite Pokemon, but last I used it, while it wasn't fantastic, it wasn't bad either. Personally, I never used Mega Absol to block Stealth Rock. It's not like Magic Bouncers were good at doing that as is. The reason I found Magic Bounce helpful was for that nice immunity to status moves like Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp, making it much harder to cripple with status, and that alone gives it a niche over Bisharp, easily the most comparable to Mega Absol (and who also doesn't use up a Mega slot!) That Special Attack boost also means it makes for a pretty decent mixed attacker, and unlike Mega Garchomp, isn't reliant on Sand support.

I'm not going to say where I think Mega Absol should be ranked (though in all reality I would be fine with C+/C,) but it definitely has things going for it. I'm interested in giving it a spin again now that Mega Mawile, one of the Megas that Absol had little reason to be used over, is gone.

Sharpedo is really bad though and should be unranked.
 

Thugly Duckling

I play TCG now

I know this is a big leap, but I'd like Salamence to move up from D --> C+.
The biggest argument against Salamence is that it is outclassed by the other Dragon Dancers (Mega Charizard X in particular). However, the cool thing about Mence is that its abilities make it stand out and it can carry an item (preferably Lum Berry), unlike the three Mega Dragon Dancers. With these niches in mind, the best Pokemon to really compare Salamence to on paper is Gyarados, who shares Salamence's abilties and is viable with or without its Mega Stone. The Offensive Dragon Dance set with Moxie is the best to compare Gyarados to Salamence with, so I'll start with that. While the set is good and 2HKOs most of the tier at +1, it greatly struggles with physically bulky Pokemon like Skarmory, Ferrothorn and Rotom-W anyway. Salamence can gets past all of them and more with this set (which I don't think I've seen, coverage-wise):
Salamence @ Lum Berry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Blast
- Stone Edge/Earthquake
Stone Edge isn't commonly seen on Salamence, but it works so well with Dragon + Fire coverage and helps a lot against Zapdos and Togekiss and will 2HKO Heatran after Stealth Rock. Fire Blast helps it beat Steel types, which Gyarados has trouble with as a whole. However, it still has problems with most Fairies and Quagsire will wall it (like it does to every other Dragon Dancer).
What about MegaZard X then? Obviously, Zard is better, but again, Lum Berry and Moxie make all the difference, allowing it to not be stopped by Thundurus-I's Thunder Wave or Sableye's Will-o-wisp (yes, I know Zard is immune to burn lol) or worn down by Toxic damage. Moxie also allows it to get stronger with each kill, something only Gyarados can do as a Dragon Dancer, allowing it to have an easier time against things it wouldn't OHKO or 2HKO normally, like Azumarill, Sp. Def Rotom-W, weakened defensive Rotom-W and Chansey, for example. As a small point, it also takes no recoil from its attacks, so that can be handy.
Salamence also has major weaknesses, however, like being weaker to priority than pretty much every other Dragon Dancer, having fewer set-up opportunities (without Intimidate) and being walled by Hippo, Clefable, Sylveon and Quagsire.
With all this in mind, Salamence fits well in C+ (or C) rank, as it is not completely eclipsed by the other Dragon Dancers, has notable niches thanks to its abilities and item, and just works well in battle most of the time, but has a couple crippling flaws and faces stiff competition with the Dragon Dancers in the S and A ranks.
Don't forget that Salamence has an excellent Mixed Set that lures a shit ton of physical walls just to smack them with a STAB Draco, a strong Hydro Pump, or Fire Blast. The mixed set is really the only set that differentiates Salamence from the other Dragon types of the tier.
 
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