ZU ZeroUsed

#26
Misses out on crucial KOs fairly often, while it only really helps vs Solrock, Lunatone, Bronzor and Drifblim, none of which are horribly common and can be worn down easily enough anyways. Not worth the power loss.
Most notable is that it helps against Misdreavus, which is actually pretty common. I haven’t done any calcs so I’m not sure, but at least consider it.
 
#28
Most notable is that it helps against Misdreavus, which is actually pretty common. I haven’t done any calcs so I’m not sure, but at least consider it.
+6 252+ Atk Smeargle Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 165-195 (51 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Then Smeargle gets burned and the sweep's dead. It was a nice thought, I'll admit, but it wouldn't work very well. You have to remember base 20 attack is hot garbage :P
 
#29
+6 252+ Atk Smeargle Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 165-195 (51 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Then Smeargle gets burned and the sweep's dead. It was a nice thought, I'll admit, but it wouldn't work very well. You have to remember base 20 attack is hot garbage :P
I mean, if you don’t run it and there’s a Missy, you’re never sweeping until it’s dead. With TA, at least you can sweep if it’s weakened.

But who cares, it’s a massive meme anyway
 
#33
HI I’d like to write something about some pokemons I really like:


Pawniard:

Since it gets +2 atk from Defiant when Defogged or intimidated by Mawile, Using it in a sticky web is what I’d reccomend. Most of the people use Silvally-Fairy as a defogger, using pawniard allows you to get +2 boost and OHKO silvally with iron head, they’ll probably use flamethrower on your pawniard which doesn’t OHKO if you’re holding Eviolite (unless they’re modest max spatk which is not likely).
Pawniard has 4mss and I know this could be weird but I like using stealth rock on pawniard as its 4th move, your opponent can’t defog when facing your pawniard so you can set stealth rock without being scared of defog.
If you already have a Stealth Rock setter, you can use two moves that are really useful if used on a switch in,those two moves are Swords Dance and Pursuit, I’d not recommend using those 2 moves in the same moveset.
Pawniard can kill all the psychic mons in this meta pretty easily,it is not good against special pokemons that can OHKO/2HKO pawn,
It can still break some physical walls like Mawile,Metang.
Pawniard is also a good revenge killer and its sucker punch deals a lot of damage when at +1/+2 atk.
Pawniard also has some bulk and it walls some pokemon that can’t hurt it like Roselia and grass types in general.
There are a lot of psychic pokemons in this Tier and pawniard is a really good check/Counter to them,be aware some psychic pokemons may have Focus Blast (like Mr Mime or Grumpig). It can also help you with the Ghosts in the tier even if there are just a few viable like Gourgeist/Misdreavus. so here’s the set:

Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock / Swords Dance / Pursuit
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Knock Off

musharna.gif

Musharna:

Musharna is the best CM user in the tier and it has a really good movepool, it also is a good cleric with heal bell. you can choose between Moonlight and Signal beam which are both helpful, signal beam hits dark types and psychic types and things like tangela, moonlight helps setting up with CM+Heal bell. Heal bell is really helpful since musharna can use synchronize+heal bell to toxic opponent when they toxic you and then heal your poison, setting up while facing a wall that can just toxic you and set hazards makes Musharna the best CM user, after some CMs it completely walls special pokemons like Regice, which is one of the pokemons I like to set up on.
Psychic stab also deals a lot of damage even with no CM, and it can punish Switch-ins or Taunt predicts.
You can run physical bulk, but I like max spatk because it hits really hard even with no CM,
Pawniard is one of the pokemon that musharna is scared of, Metang is also another one, band Stoutland does not wall musharna but it can outspeed it and deal a solid 40%+. This pokemon only has a few counters and switch ins.
You can use Buginium or Leftovers as Item, buginium allows you to deal more damage to psychic mons, leftovers grants some more recovery. Another item you can use is Normalium for Z-Healbell which gives you 100% recovery

Here’s some sets:

Musharna @ Leftovers / Buginium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Signal Beam / MoonLight
Musharna @ Leftovers / Buginium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Signal Beam

Hope you enjoyed :D
 
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#34
HI I’d like to write something about some pokemons I really like:


Pawniard:

Since it gets +2 atk from Defiant when Defogged or intimidated by Mawile, Using it in a sticky web is what I’d reccomend. Most of the people use Silvally-Fairy as a defogger, using pawniard allows you to get +2 boost and OHKO silvally with iron head, they’ll probably use flamethrower on your pawniard which doesn’t OHKO if you’re holding Eviolite (unless they’re modest max spatk which is not likely).
Pawniard has 4mss and I know this could be weird but I like using stealth rock on pawniard as its 4th move, your opponent can’t defog when facing your pawniard so you can set stealth rock without being scared of defog.
If you already have a Stealth Rock setter, you can use two moves that are really useful if used on a switch in,those two moves are Swords Dance and Pursuit, I’d not recommend using those 2 moves in the same moveset.
Pawniard can kill all the psychic mons in this meta pretty easily,it is not good against special pokemons that can OHKO/2HKO pawn,
It can still break some physical walls like Mawile,Metang.
Pawniard is also a good revenge killer and its sucker punch deals a lot of damage when at +1/+2 atk.
Pawniard also has some bulk and it walls some pokemon that can’t hurt it like Roselia and grass types in general.
There are a lot of psychic pokemons in this Tier and pawniard is a really good check/Counter to them,be aware some psychic pokemons may have Focus Blast (like Mr Mime or Grumpig). It can also help you with the Ghosts in the tier even if there are just a few viable like Gourgeist/Misdreavus. so here’s the set:

Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock / Swords Dance / Pursuit
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Knock Off

View attachment 104970
Musharna:

Musharna is the best CM user in the tier and it has a really good movepool, it also is a good cleric with heal bell. you can choose between Moonlight and Signal beam which are both helpful, signal beam hits dark types and psychic types and things like tangela, moonlight helps setting up with CM+Heal bell. Heal bell is really helpful since musharna can use synchronize+heal bell to toxic opponent when they toxic you and then heal your poison, setting up while facing a wall that can just toxic you and set hazards makes Musharna the best CM user, after some CMs it completely walls special pokemons like Regice, which is one of the pokemons I like to set up on.
Psychic stab also deals a lot of damage even with no CM, and it can punish Switch-ins or Taunt predicts.
You can run physical bulk, but I like max spatk because it hits really hard even with no CM,
Pawniard is one of the pokemon that musharna is scared of, Metang is also another one, band Stoutland does not wall musharna but it can outspeed it and deal a solid 40%+. This pokemon only has a few counters and switch ins.
You can use Buginium or Leftovers as Item, buginium allows you to deal more damage to psychic mons, leftovers grants some more recovery. Another item you can use is Normalium for Z-Healbell which gives you 100% recovery

Here’s some sets:

Musharna @ Leftovers / Buginium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Signal Beam / MoonLight
Musharna @ Leftovers / Buginium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Signal Beam

Hope you enjoyed :D
For the max Spa set, you shouldn't be utilizing no recovery and include it being a reliable Trick Room setter with access to Healing Wish. Resist Berry / Mental Herb takes on this role so that you always get a chance to set up TR against offensive threats and sacrifice it for wall breaker partners such as Ursaring / Wishiwashi while also functioning as a bulky psychic, checking threats such as Monferno and Muk. Never forget that this pokemon is one of the rare set up sweepers with access to Stored Power.:mehowth:
 
#35
I’ve seen this thread wasn’t so active in the last few days, i’m gonna post something about leafeon ,



the main reason I use this pokemon is to set up infront of some stealth rock setters that are scared of it. This pokemon has access to swords dance and knock off making it good against pokemons like tangela which can’t do much against it. Smeargle is another example, its main set is Spore/StickyWeb/MagicCoat/SR, but beware it could have nuzzle and leafeon does not like to be paralyzed, for this reason torterra is a better choice if you need something against smeargle. The optimal item for leafeon is Z Move, I’d reccomend normalium which gives you the chance to kill stab resists with Z-DoubleEdge and it is really good because you can kill combusken or monfernos in switch-ins at +2 atk. I really like this pokemon, it can set up really easily and if your opponents can’t outspeed leafeon you can sweep with STAB+Z-DoubleEdge, knock off is a good option since there are many psychic types in this tier and knocking off NFE walls’ eviolites is really good.
Leafeon @ Normalium Z
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Double-Edge
- Leaf Blade
 
#36

Stoutland:

Is there even anything to say about this dog? It is one of the strongest pokemon of the tier, its band set gives you a lot of power which your opponent can’t even lower by using will o wisp if you’re using facade. It has really good coverage, and the access to superpower and stomping tantrum gives you the opportunity to deal damage even to your STAB resists. Also Crunch and Play Rough/psychic fangs give you the chance to hit the many psychic types and some of the fighting types which your stoutland is scared of (like silvally-fighting or hakamo-o). The ability you should use is scrappy, so you can hit misdreavus and gourgeist-L, but if using a sand team you can use sand rush (which allows you to outspeed silvally-fighting). This pokemon only has a few switch ins: mawile,tangela,metang and poliwrath. Those 3 are the walls you should avoid to face with stoutland unless they’re in range of a kill (or if tangela lost eviolite).Return/Frustration STAB is also really good and it deals more damage than you expect with band. To sum up this dog is really hard to counter unless you have mawile,tangela, metan or poliwrath, if you don’t have those you must try to get a revenge kill on stout after it got a KO, pokemons with focus blast/superpower or fighting pokemons (monferno and combusken help) are the only way to OHKO (by revenge kill) stoutland. If you have problems with this doggo you can either wall it :blobstop: or check it :blobtriumph:.

Hope you enjoyed
 
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#37
I’ve seen this thread wasn’t so active in the last few days, i’m gonna post something about leafeon ,



the main reason I use this pokemon is to set up infront of some stealth rock setters that are scared of it. This pokemon has access to swords dance and knock off making it good against pokemons like tangela which can’t do much against it. Smeargle is another example, its main set is Spore/StickyWeb/MagicCoat/SR, but beware it could have nuzzle and leafeon does not like to be paralyzed, for this reason torterra is a better choice if you need something against smeargle. The optimal item for leafeon is Z Move, I’d reccomend normalium which gives you the chance to kill stab resists with Z-DoubleEdge and it is really good because you can kill combusken or monfernos in switch-ins at +2 atk. I really like this pokemon, it can set up really easily and if your opponents can’t outspeed leafeon you can sweep with STAB+Z-DoubleEdge, knock off is a good option since there are many psychic types in this tier and knocking off NFE walls’ eviolites is really good.
Leafeon @ Normalium Z
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Double-Edge
- Leaf Blade
Another set that takes advantage of recent metagame trends, specifically Smeargle, is the Choice Band set with Bullet Seed. It only takes 3 hits to KO Focus Sash Smeargle, taking away any chance of hazards being up. This set also hits the likes of Golem and Trick Room Carbink (needs 4 hits though). Aside from being a good anti-lead, CB Leafeon very easily chips its defensive switch-ins by removing Leftovers and Eviolite from Mawile, Tangela, Togetic, and Vullaby for example with Knock Off. Moreover, offensive switch-ins such as Rapidash or Silvally-Grass take 30% and more from banded Leaf Blade. The main drawbacks with this particular set is unboosted Leafeon isn’t difficult to revenge kill and being locked into certain moves makes it easy to play around.
 
#38
I know people mostly think of Smeargle as a hazard setter but in a tier like ZU things might actually be frail enough to get smacked up by a Belly Drum set of all things.

My set:
Smeargle @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spore
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake/Precipice Blades

You have to be in against something slower than Smeargle, then use Spore, BD up safely and spam ESpeed, using Ground coverage to hit the steels and ghosts of the tier.

The damage isn't that bad, looking at calcs. It does stuff like this:
+6 252+ Atk Smeargle Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golem: 352-416 (116.9 - 138.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Smeargle Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 252-297 (104.5 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Smeargle Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Stoutland: 288-340 (92.6 - 109.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+5 252+ Atk Smeargle Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 310-366 (101.9 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Obviously not the greatest set but it does well enough. You will need to damage things like Musharna and Dusclops before sweeping, and rocks are desirable, but in the right situation the sweep can't be stopped because it outprioritizes all its enemies (Just be careful around Protect, since ESpeed only has 8 PP). It has a niche IMO, though I'm not the most experienced with the tier. If you want to be really cool, run Metronome instead of Silk Scarf :P
(Note: If using EQ over Blades, you probably want to make sure you have a spike up first)
Bro why the fuck aren't you running Technician Bonemerang?
 
#41
There hasn't been too much metagame discussion here so I decided I'll give my thoughts on the current tier.

The loss of Altaria and Clefairy created a noticeable dynamic in how teams approach Fire-types, slower setup sweepers, and hazard removal. Previously, Altaria was arguably the premium Defogger and blanket checked Pokemon like Combusken, Rapidash, Shiftry, non-Stone Edge Torterra, and Musharna. For these aforementioned Pokemon, losing Altaria made them much more effective. The same can be said for Clefairy and how it used to check Combusken, Rotom-Frost, Musharna, beat Defog Silvally forms, and again slower setup sweepers such as Musharna. Furthermore, Swanna also rose and Smeargle dropped (Torkoal and Duggy also dropped but they aren't affecting the meta tbh). The hazard game now is vastly different from before: We see a Silvally form (typically Water, Fairy, Dragon, Grass, and sometimes Fire) on nearly every team, Servine has risen to check Webs+Spore Smeargle, and leads have to be wary of being temporarily shut down by Spore Smeargle. The takeout of all this is the metagame has adapted considerably, yet there are almost glaringly unhealthy aspects present. I'll talk about these aspects below (no particular order).

Combination of bulk, set up options, versatility, and resp,ectable power make Musharna one of the most threatening bulky sweepers. It is able to set up on the vast majority of the meta, with its main counter-play being strong wallbreakers, Toxic, Taunt, and phazing. The ability to pick and choose sets that have differing counterplay gives Musharna an almost incomparable degree of versatility. For example, you think Musharna is on a timer from Toxic then it reveals Heal Bell or Rest. Stoutland is about to 2HKO but it runs Barrier. Pawniard or other Dark-types come in expecting monostab and Musharna pulls up with Z-Signal Beam or Z-Dazzling Gleam. Musharna has teammates to beat its checks and counter-play. I've been running Magnet Rise Probopass who can beat Mawile, Metang, Pawniard, and switches into Toxic, which has been a really successful partner. Musharna also appreciates Dark-type checks such as Poliwrath, Togetic, Silvally-Fairy, and Pokemon like Lickilicky or Muk who can switch into powerful special attackers. Musharna is very easy to support and simply uncompetitive in many cases, because of its aforementioned versatility within sets it can run and its raw bulk. Also, this gen's mechanics play an important role in how Musharna is broken. The decreased crit chance and the ability to bypass Encore, Trick, and Taunt with Z-moves all give Musharna the necessary tools to overcome traditional counterplay.

Counterarguments to why Musharna may not be broken are its passiveness, reliance on having the correct set to beat certain checks (i.e loses to Toxic if non-Heal Bell or Rest, loses to Dark-types if monostab), vulnerability to powerful special attacks, vulnerability to powerful physical attacks if it doesn't have Barrier, Moonlight having low PP makes Musharna easy to stall sometimes, and the metagame is continually adapting to it (i.e Taunt Recycle Mago Grumpig, Taunt Mawile, Misdreavus, prevalence of Toxic). Much of these downsides are mitigated through teammates, such as having checks to strong special attackers like Chatot, Beheeyem, and Mr. Mime. Hope to encourage discussion on this mon since many people feel Musharna is uncompetitve and broken.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-725320572
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-725354541
tested a new team yesterday, some replays showcasing Mushy



As of late, Ursaring has been getting lots of talk from certain council members and players alike. Many believe that Ursaring is the single most difficult Pokemon to switch into, lacking any counters. Ursaring is mostly responsible for the decline of stall and other defensive archetypes, because Guts Facade hits absurdly hard (2HKO's Tangela) and Ursaring has the necessary coverage to nail Ghost-, Steel-, and Rock-types. Moreover, Ursaring's good natural bulk allows it to sponge hits and even gives it switch-in opportunities vs weaker Pokemon such as Musharna, Misdreavus, and Silvally-Water. Defensive counterplay to Ursaring is fairly limited for a few reasons: no viable counters, forces 50/50's between resists, SD just rips apart slower teams, and Ursaring can be hard to chip down when burn is only -6% and your Pokemon get 2HKO'd. Guts Ursaring is also able to threaten offensive styles through Trick Room, Tailwind, and Webs support respectively. Partners like Scarf HW Mr. Mime, Smeargle, Illumise, and Grumpig are able to support Ursaring's main weaknesses such as low Speed and weakness to Fighting.

Personally I never really found Ursaring because being slow it's susceptible to faster attackers like Chatot, Comnusken, Rapidash, Stoutland, Rotom-Frost, Mr. Mime, etc. Plus, things like Mawile and Golem already being so popular makes it harder for Ursaring to run rampant. Misdreavus and defensive Poliwrath are also a pain for it. However, Ursaring lacks solid and consistent defensive counterplay due to its natural power and coverage, as well as being able to threaten faster Pokemon through Trick Room or Tailwind support. It has lots of tools to dominate in the tier, but isn't that splashable due to its lack of defensive utility. For me, the argument for Ursaring being broken boils down to how much it restrains defensive styles and teams from being successful, and how it forces the meta to become more offensive.

One more note: I know Quick Feet Ursaring is a thing, and it definitely plays into its viability, but it is not on the level of the Guts sets. It allows Ursaring to outspeed and kill most things under base 106 Speed, however it is noticeably weaker and easier to chip down.



Here is perhaps the most controversial Pokemon of the bunch and for good reason. Rotom-Frost is the most influential Pokemon in the tier, being both extremely splashable and centralizing. Rotom-Frost forces every team to run a BoltBeam check, run Pokemon faster than 298 Speed, and it sets the benchmark for Choice Scarf users. Icium Z and Choice Scarf alike provide unmatched offensive and defensive attributes, such as having a nearly unwalled stab combo, solid natural bulk, Levitate, and various utility options like Trick, Defog, Pain Split, and Will-O-Wisp. These two sets alone force an absurd amount of 50/50's when Rotom-Frost comes in, because it can either Volt Switch into a wallbreaker, kill something with Blizzard, cripple a switch-in with Trick, and so on. Rotom-Frost can also fit onto every style and run a variety of sets to adapt to that respective style. For example, Choice Specs Frostom can fit onto balance builds that need a powerful wallbreaker and pivot. A bulkier set with Pain Split and Defog can fit onto stall, countering opposing Rotom-Frost and killing common Rockers and Defoggers. Safety Goggles sets let it fit seamlessly into sand since it's such a good partner to Stoutland. The same goes for rain and Damp Rock Rain Dance. These sounds like sub par sets, but they are perfectly viable and work extremely well on those teams.

Rotom-Frost being suspect worthy has always been a hot topic, even when we decided to suspect Stoutland first. In practice, Rotom-Frost can be a lot less threatening because of its SR weakness, lower Speed if not Choice Scarf (thus being easier to check), and how the meta has adapted to it. It can even be argued that the shifts have made Rotom-Frost worse, because Fire-types and in turn Grumpig have become a lot more popular than before. In contrast to that, Silvally forms being so popular have alleviated Frostom's Rocks weakness, and it has a fantastic matchup against Sticky Web due to Levitate. Also, Rotom-Frost can be very difficult to check in itself because clicking Volt Switch allows it to escape almost any bad matchup. Of course, Choice Scarf sets and Icium Z sets are not overpowered or broken on their own, but the effect Rotom-Frost has on the metagame is very centralizing. The question is, does Frostom affect the metagame in such an unhealthy way that it needs to be banned?



I'm pressed for time rn so I'll try to be concise. Vigoroth is a very uncompetitive Pokemon due to its ability to set up on the majority of the meta and similarly to Musharna, bypass usual counterplay with Taunt or Substitute. The effect Stoutland has on the metagame allows Vigoroth to use typical Normal-checks like Mawile or Tangela as set up fodder. Viggy has all the tools it needs -bulk, Speed, set up moves- to be a potentially broken Pokemon. The metagame has never truly adapted to it because it just hasn't been used a lot, so I believe we need to take a close look at it before we judge it as suspect worthy or not.
 
#42
Since 5gen wrote his thoughts, I gonna do the same :

Suspect worthy :


Mushy is certainly the more broken thing which stands in ZU right now. Bugnium Z, CM Barrier, CM Z-Heal bell, classical Mushyny... are all so effective to make trouble to the opposite team. If every single set it runs have counters, it's impossible to know in advance what it took as moves. Without Dark types, the CM Barrier Stored set 6-0 whole team only at the team preview. Its supposed passivity hide the fact that this dream eater loves wearing a Z-Move which removes whatever mon who could deal with stuff like trick, taunt, encore. If you thought run a dark type like shiftry or pawniard was enough to prevent to be swept, you will be really disappointed to know that Bugnium Z/Fairium Z is a thing and it OHKO both of them at +1. You need several answers in a team to be able to bypass it which restricts hugely the teambuilding. And if all that wasn't enough to convince you, let me say that Mushy doesn't need a particular support to work, it's very splashable and can be incorporate in any team you wish.



I noticed a lot of people don't understand why frosttom is suspect worthy so I would like to clarify the reasons why a large part of the community thinks it could be suspected.

The first thing I wanna say is Rotom-Frost is indeed not broken. It has common ways to deal with as revenge killing it with faster scarfs or counter or check it with various answer. Without trick, it's unable to beat in 1vs1 stuff like grumpig, chinchou, seaking, probopass, regice, muk, bronzor,... With trick, it's more annoying to kill it with defensive answers in 1vs1 but it is not still broken.

So why do we think it will be a good idea to suspect frosttom if it is not broken ? Because it is unhealthy and overcentralizing.

Unhealthy because fight against Rotom-Frost is a story of 50/50 always in its favor. Blizzard or Volt Switch ? Trick or Icium Z ? Pain Split or Substitute ? If you answered wrong, you lose one mon. If you answer right at all the 50/50, congratulation, you have weaken frosttom or gain the momentum. The situation isn't only totally unbalanced, the situation is also based on chance and required none skills. A decision completely rationnal is impossible to take if you didn't receive the pastebin of the opposite team just before. For example, a combinaison of Frosttom icium-z and Stoutland Band Pursuit cannot be rationnaly anticipated and a lot of players will lose stupidly their grumpig in believing it's a good answer to frosttom whatever it does. Same with muk, you thought it was a good frosttom switch-in due to its high special bulk and sticky hold but did you know Icium-Z + Blizzard remove 80% of your life ? You should.

And that's why Frosttom is overcentralizing. A lot of people think that overcentralizing mean the mon suspected is too much played. That's false, overcentralizing means the metagame is too much centralized around the banworthy mon, here Rotom-Frost. To prevent the stories above with the fridge clicks without pressure volt-switch and then send a physical wallbreaker, an electric immunity is often required to force Frosttom to do blizzard. It means one thing, to be on the same level of pressure than frosttom requires two mons, one who counters it and an other with an electry immunity to stop volt switch. It restricts the teambuilding. But there is worse, you understand it stays very risky because almost every electric mmunity is OHKO by Icium-Z. It exists only two mon in zu who have the ability to stop volt switch and counter Rotom-Frost : chinchou and AV seaking. These two mons are normally trash, who the hell will use as special answer a mon like chinchou who has 75 HP/56 SpD as bs and only 36 in def with absolutely none utility move bar heal bell ? Who the hell will use seaking when we have stuff like Relicanth and with AV for I dont know what dark reasons ? Actually they are both used and pretty decent, only thanks to Frosttom. Rotom-Frost makes bad mon legit to use.

On the fence


I can take a lot of time talking about Vigo but I will be quick on this. I think it is broken, very difficult to deal with if you don't have a ghost type or a strong fighting type. Stuff like encore, knock off aren't enough to break it. However, the meta isn't kind with it for the moment so it's difficult to have a good opinion. It needs a good support to avoid to be weaken by hazards or shot down by set-up sweeper. What is certain is it 6-0 unprepared teams and even if you have taking into account vigo in your teambuild, it stays difficult to deal with.

It's unforunately the only replay I've saved where I fight a Vigo. Honnestly, I should have lost in being swept by vigy, only a right anticipation in the right moment saved me. It shows even if you have an answer to vigy (silvally fight here), it's very painthful to deal with if you don't have a really strong wallbreaker or stuff like encore. Vs pinktidal


Dangerous mons

galifeu.PNG


Its Fire/Blast/Focus blast/Shadow claw LO set doesn't have switch-in except muk and uncommun mareanie and pyumuku SpD. The departure of Clefairy, Altaria and Swanna makes it terrific to handle, especially for offense. Impossible to revenge kill thanks to its gain of speed perpetual and because it doesn't care of three of the five priorities used in ZU, basically sucker punch of pawniard/shiftry and it stops Fake out of Purugly with Protect. If Combusken had 100% of precision on focus blast/fire blast, it would be broken.

I found these two replay very interesting to comment : Combusken vs rains team. A spectator could believe that it's a bad match up to combusken because the half of the team has +2 in speed, resist fire blast and don't have a lot of weakness to focus blast but however, speed boost is very nasty. The first battle I'm outplayed during a big part of the battle but SirCloud does the mistake to kill my grumpig instead of putting again the rain. The second battle is even more expediting because SirCloud didn't have much way to win. If he TW combusken with volbeat, he doesn't have way to put rain anymore and the rest of my team finishes or he sets up rain in hopping combusken misses.
Battle 1
Battle 2

grotadmorv.PNG


I will be quite rapid here because it's approximately the same that Mushy except it is less broken. The reason why it is only one set is really painthful to deal with, it's its curse set which not really customisable either. Except that, the same story applies here, if you don't have a steel type, you will have a lot of trouble to deal with it, it can 6-0 teams only at the team preview. Since Musharna is better in its role of wincon, muk is played almost only in teams which lack of frosttom switch-in. It stays very dangerous and I would like to see what impact it has in a meta without musharna.

Why I don't think Ursaring is suspect worthy

Ursaring.PNG


If for soms Ursaring is a problem for the tier, it's because for them Ursaring invalids the playstyle stall. I specify this aspect because a lot of people think to do not have switch-in is enough to justify a suspect test, it isn't the case. Mawile-Mega doesn't have switch-in, it's not broken anymore. Same with Exploud last gen in RU.

I could say there are way to deal with ursa in stall teams, you have mushy which handle a hit an remove 80% of its life after with its Z-Move, you have dusclops who can take 2 hits without pdr and counter/seismic toss, you can burn stall with protect, tangela can take a hit and leaf storm after that, you can anticipate if it gonna do facade/Crunch with your ghost type. 5 stallers and one offensive mon to RK has always existed like weavile stall last gen in OU or still the amazing combusken stall diagnostic does few months ago, take a pursuit stoutland is enough to trapkill the bear, etc.

But that's not the point. I would like to address an other approach because I think it's far more pertinent than just list things able to bypass Ursaring. If we suspect Ursaring, it's to make stall viable because they are totaly unviable with the presence of bear in the tier. That's the reason why stuff like Mawile-M or Hoopa aren't suspected right now in OU, stall isn't good even without them. Suspect them will make stall better but not make unviable -> shining. In other words, the argument of pro-suspect ursaring can be summerised in two points :

1) Without Ursaring, Stall is a viable playstyle in ZU
2) The only presence of Ursaring in ZU makes the playstyle invalid.

I already disputed the point two above in showing quickly that even with bear in the tier, it's possible to make a stall team valid and there are even few ways to check ursa. You don't have the match up obviously but you can still win. Now, I will show why even without Ursa, stalls have major flaws in the actual meta to be effective. This point is really important because a potential suspect doesn't have sense if not. We dont suspect for theory things but for practise things, if there are other reasons why stall isn't really viable in ZU, a ban is unnecessary.

So why stalls aren't good in ZU even in forgetting Ursa ? Because the meta is simply disgusting with the playstyle. The Z-move are in every team which make SI to simple check, Volturn is predominant and stalls in ZU have no way to deal with it (just run Frosttom + Monferno band/ninjask and you gonna laugh), hazards have never been as easy as before to stack (especially for toxic spikes/spike), we have very good users of koff as shiftry or leafeon who both destroy stall without muk, Stoutland is played pursuit nowadays, Silvally-Dark more common than never, defog users more easy to kill than ever, I would like to see the switch-in in stall to SD MB Pinsir, same with Beheyeem, same with Chatot specs (y there is not only the ursa who 6-0 stalls), taunt are played by various mons very played like grumpig, vigoroth, simipour NP, I don't know how stalls deal with rain (pyuku ?), Mushy Stored power 6-0 stalls without taunt users, the only mon able to switch one time on Machoke guts on stall is Mushy Z-Move/colbur, trick users are in one team on three, stuff like Whishiwashi, Marowak, Servine are painthful to deal with for stall and I don't ever talk about perishtrapper like Politoed or Lapras, stallbreaker like Misdreavus, SD Sub users like Hawsbuck or still the ton of resttalk users who are difficult to be weaken with indirect damages and pp stall some moves, etc.

Stalls are plyable even with Ursaring but gonna stay bad even without Ursaring.

Quick thoughts on the VR

A+ -> A . Already gave my opinion on chatot on the chatbox. I won't repeat but I wanted to point it out.

A -> S . With what I said above, I think I cannot argue more. Mushy is splashable, it supports the team and it is the more terrific thing which exists in ZU. Let it A is a crime, let it join Stoutland and Rotom-Frost on the pantheon of ZU.

A -> Lower . It was the last time I have seen Rotom-Fan and it was not glorious. You cannot seriously say this mon is as viable as grumpig, muk or combusken in a team. I know usage doesn't mean viability but what is the last time you have deliberality chosen to add R-Fan in a team ? I want to heard the reason with few replays as proof to know why its Pokemon is ranked so high.

B+ -> B . To be a special sponge 2HKO by Rotom-Frost and focus blast users isn't great in ZU. It's not either a Pokemon a lot of used recently. Its curse set is outclassed by all other wincons like muk or mushy. Its classical set isn't great either. Cradily doesn't find its place in an offensive meta dominated by Stoutland, Frosttom and Mushy.

B -> B+ . I didn't understand what it dropped tbh. Sure, SR are more present than before but it accomplishes as good as before its role of tank special. It stays a very good frosttom switch-in and its Z-Gravity set isalways threating and it likes the offensive way the meta is turning now with more mons 2HKO by its Boltbeam coverage.

B+ -> B It's not the best wincon anymore. It has trouble to set up, every team has physical answer and even at +1 it stays slow and be outspeeded by the majority of scarfers. It doesn't appreciate much the shift paradoxally. Once set up, it is as dangerous as before but that's far more difficult to reach this stage.

B -> B+ Very annoying to face tbh. It has flaws of course as it's unability to break bulky mon but otherwise it doesn't really have switch-in. Its Lo/Expert belt Wild Charge/ice Punch/earthquake or cross chop/Flamethrower destroys balanced core, a good speed tier and the opponent doesn't really know what it gonna do. Difficult to use but painthful to deal with.
 
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#43
How can i play this? It sounds really fun. Sad about swanna tho as i was reading i was like "oh boy maybe i can use swanna" the i seen the ban lol but still i wanna give this a try!
 
#44
How can i play this? It sounds really fun. Sad about swanna tho as i was reading i was like "oh boy maybe i can use swanna" the i seen the ban lol but still i wanna give this a try!
We have a private room on Pokemon Showdown called ZU, you can challenge people under the PU format or participate in room tours. You can also join the ZU discord and ask for battles there.

Edit: For the record, Swanna is PU by usage, not banned.
 
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#46
Tier shifts are here!

Here are our full changes:

Rises (to PU):
-Fairy

Drops (to ZU):


Okay. We got a lot of offense this time around. Smash Crustle, Alolan Dugtrio, Jynx, Liepard, Lurantis, and Lycanroc are all threatening offensive mons, while Shuckle and Crustle can be good leads for offense. A loss of Silvally-Fairy and Stoutland will hurt balance considerably and a loss of Ursaring will help stall teams quite a bit. I would write more, but I have another announcement...



The ZU Council has decided to suspect test Musharna. As you are probably aware, Musharna has been in our metagame since January and has always been a solid setup sweeper with Calm Mind sets, often coupled with a Z-Move to get around Taunt and break through Dark-types (or, in Z-Heal Bell's case, status). Recently, however, another Musharna set has been increasing in popularity; namely, the set consisting of Barrier/Calm Mind/Rest/STAB move. While this set is by no means unbeatable, being countered by most Taunt users and Swords Dance Dark-types (Shiftry, Pawniard), it has wildly different counterplay when compared to the Buginium Z and Fairium Z sets. The fact that it also tends to use Psychium Z on the Rest set means that even Taunt users could get stalled out. This has made Musharna into a terrifying presence that the council has deemed suspect-worthy. We understand that it's weird to suspect immediately after drops, but we gained no significant counterplay to it and waiting longer was seen as a bad idea by our council.

Over the course of the next two weeks, 5 suspect tours will be held in our private room on Pokemon Showdown. The winners of these tours will be allowed to vote. In addition, our council members will be allowed to vote if they make a decent-quality post regarding Musharna in this thread.

The exact times for the suspect tours will be announced at least 24 hours in advance in this thread. Now feel free to discuss both Musharna and our new metagame!
 
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