Metagame ZeroUsed

#51

Nominating Lopunny to go from C- to C tier, possibly even C+

Since the D and C tiers merged, the Pokemon at said tiers are quite displaced. This is especially true for Lopunny, who, in this meta, can take on a variety of roles. Armed with an amazing movepool (particularly on the support side) and a solid base 105 Speed, Lopunny can function as a stallbreaker, cleric, or even a pseudo-offensive check in the same set. Furthermore, Lopunny outpaces common threats such as non-Scarfed Frostom, Stoutland, and Ursaring, and with proper prediction, a Lopunny with 252 EVs in Attack and High Jump Kick can 2HKO the aforementioned threats (all of which are quite common in this meta).
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ursaring: 250-296 (77.8 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after toxic damage
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Stoutland: 216-256 (69.4 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 188-222 (78 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Where Lopunny really shines, however, is in her set unpredictability. While it may seem totally cheese, Switcheroo and Klutz is a potent combination that can be teched with certain items to aid specifically against certain playstyles. Should one need to shut down stall, they can use Lopunny to Switcheroo a Choice Scarf or Assault Vest onto the enemy Pokemon to, essentially, ruin that Pokemon's chances of doing anything meaningful in that match. In a meta where Tangela and Missy are common, Switcheroo itself is valuable because it halves their defenses immediately. Switcheroo + Assault Vest can be a way to bypass Lickilicky (who is essential to stall) and his Oblivious ability to render him near-useless. More so, a Switcheroo'd Choice Scarf can lock an enemy Pokemon into a set-up move if timed properly, acting as a permanent Encore. To deal with offense, Lopunny can utilize Flame Orb to burn and halve the Attack of Pokemon focused on physical damage (there are plenty in this metagame that this is useful for; Stoutland is likely the most common). Beyond Switcheroo and High Jump Kick, Lopunny has access to Heal Bell (to aid against Toxic and sleep), Healing Wish (a particularly useful move to restore sweepers worn down by things such as Toxic, etc. by sacrificing Lopunny), Thunder Wave (to help outspeed faster Pokemon), Toxic (to rack up passive damage on the enemy Pokemon), Normal STAB, and even Magic Coat (useful for reflecting status and hazards when Lopunny is used as a lead, particularly against things like Smeargle). While I praise Lopunny a lot in this wall of text, it is to be mentioned that she is very prediction-oriented (which can definitely make or break games), and that there are a lot of offensive threats that can tear right through her. Another thing to be noted is that Lopunny is limited to offensive teams, as she is obviously best-suited to an offensive utility role. All in all, Lopunny is infinitely more viable and versatile than the incredibly obscure picks of the C- tier like Lumineon and Dusclops, and I really think that a slight tier increase could arranged to accurately reflect that.
 
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#52

Nominating Lopunny to go from C- to C tier, possibly even C+

Since the D and C tiers merged, the Pokemon at said tiers are quite displaced. This is especially true for Lopunny, who, in this meta, can take on a variety of roles. Armed with an amazing movepool (particularly on the support side) and a solid base 105 Speed, Lopunny can function as a stallbreaker, cleric, or even a pseudo-offensive check in the same set. Furthermore, Lopunny outpaces common threats such as non-Scarfed Frostom, Stoutland, and Ursaring, and with proper prediction, a Lopunny with 252 EVs in Attack and High Jump Kick can 2HKO the aforementioned threats (all of which are quite common in this meta).
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ursaring: 250-296 (77.8 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after toxic damage
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Stoutland: 216-256 (69.4 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 188-222 (78 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Where Lopunny really shines, however, is in her set unpredictability. While it may seem totally cheese, Switcheroo and Klutz is a potent combination that can be teched with certain items to aid specifically against certain playstyles. Should one need to shut down stall, they can use Lopunny to Switcheroo a Choice Scarf or Assault Vest onto the enemy Pokemon to, essentially, ruin that Pokemon's chances of doing anything meaningful in that match. In a meta where Tangela and Missy are common, Switcheroo itself is valuable because it halves their defenses immediately. Switcheroo + Assault Vest can be a way to bypass Lickilicky (who is essential to stall) and his Oblivious ability to render him near-useless. More so, a Switcheroo'd Choice Scarf can lock an enemy Pokemon into a set-up move if timed properly, acting as a permanent Encore. To deal with offense, Lopunny can utilize Flame Orb to burn and halve the Attack of Pokemon focused on physical damage (there are plenty in this metagame that this is useful for; Stoutland is likely the most common). Beyond Switcheroo and High Jump Kick, Lopunny has access to Heal Bell (to aid against Toxic and sleep), Healing Wish (a particularly useful move to restore sweepers worn down by things such as Toxic, etc. by sacrificing Lopunny), Thunder Wave (to help outspeed faster Pokemon), Toxic (to rack up passive damage on the enemy Pokemon), Normal STAB, and even Magic Coat (useful for reflecting status and hazards when Lopunny is used as a lead, particularly against things like Smeargle). While I praise Lopunny a lot in this wall of text, it is to be mentioned that she is very prediction-oriented (which can definitely make or break games), and that there are a lot of offensive threats that can tear right through her. Another thing to be noted is that Lopunny is limited to offensive teams, as she is obviously best-suited to an offensive utility role. All in all, Lopunny is infinitely more viable and versatile than the incredibly obscure picks of the C- tier like Lumineon and Dusclops, and I really think that a slight tier increase could arranged to accurately reflect that.
Good post, I like it a lot!

However, I do not agree with the nomination. The main reason for this is that Lopunny is simply incredibly niche: in A- and above, we have Stoutland, Chatot, Ursaring, Vigoroth, and Bouffalant as Normal-type breakers. And while Lopunny is faster than each of these, we also have Purugly, which is even faster than Lopunny, in B+. We have an abundance of offensive Normal-types, and Lopunny's HJK isn't enough to make it stand out when Stoutland has Superpower, Ursaring has Close Combat and Earthquake, and Bouffalant has Earthquake, especially seeing as how Lopunny fails to OHKO the things you want to use HJK for.

So what about Klutz + Switcheroo? This set is pretty interesting as it has the potential to seriously screw over certain Pokemon, but that's just it: it screws over a couple Pokemon, which are pretty specific depending on your item and this is just not enough. Meanwhile, you have a Lopunny that's unable to hold an item, greatly reducing its damage output, and can't do much to Z-Move users.

All in all, I really don't think Lopunny does enough in our metagame to rise, since it's simply outclassed 90% of the time by all our other breakers.
 
#54
You can't be disrespecting Oranguru like that, 3 grades below Onix smh
Oranguru is a case of a Pokemon with an extreme niche. Being part Normal-type really hinders Oranguru in the current meta because of how good Fighting-types are. Having a Ghost-type immunity as a Psychic-type is great but Ghosts aren't that relevant bar Misdreavus and the rare offensive Dusknoir. For the record, Taunt Misdreavus and Sucker Punch can still give it trouble.

Musharna, Grumpig, and Beheeyem give Oranguru tremendous competition as bulky Psychic-types. Musharna specifically because it takes away the Trick Room setter niche. Grumpig is arguably the best bulky Psychic-type at the moment due to its bulk+speed+Thick Fat combo and utility options in Taunt or Twave. Lastly, Beheeyem outclasses any form of an offensive set because it also gets Nasty Plot and TR, and has much higher damage output. It also has the longevity factor due to Recover.

Onix on the other hand has a defined niche in weather lead for sun and sand respectively. Access to Taunt, Rocks, and Explosion, alongside its high Speed for a suicide lead, make Onix the best at what it does.
 
#55
After further discussion on council, a couple more VR changes are coming through. Almost all of these are some unranked mons that are being placed in Usually Useless or C ranks (except for Pawniard).

Pawniard: A- -> B+
Illumise: C -> C+
Lampent: Unranked -> C
Silvally-Electric: Usually Useless -> C-
Wigglytuff: Unranked -> C-
Girafarig: Unranked -> Usually Useless
Mothim: Unranked -> Usually Useless
Regigigas: Unranked -> Usually Useless
 
#56
There hasn't been too much metagame discussion here so I decided I'll give my thoughts on the current tier.

The loss of Altaria and Clefairy created a noticeable dynamic in how teams approach Fire-types, slower setup sweepers, and hazard removal. Previously, Altaria was arguably the premium Defogger and blanket checked Pokemon like Combusken, Rapidash, Shiftry, non-Stone Edge Torterra, and Musharna. For these aforementioned Pokemon, losing Altaria made them much more effective. The same can be said for Clefairy and how it used to check Combusken, Rotom-Frost, Musharna, beat Defog Silvally forms, and again slower setup sweepers such as Musharna. Furthermore, Swanna also rose and Smeargle dropped (Torkoal and Duggy also dropped but they aren't affecting the meta tbh). The hazard game now is vastly different from before: We see a Silvally form (typically Water, Fairy, Dragon, Grass, and sometimes Fire) on nearly every team, Servine has risen to check Webs+Spore Smeargle, and leads have to be wary of being temporarily shut down by Spore Smeargle. The takeout of all this is the metagame has adapted considerably, yet there are almost glaringly unhealthy aspects present. I'll talk about these aspects below (no particular order).

Combination of bulk, set up options, versatility, and resp,ectable power make Musharna one of the most threatening bulky sweepers. It is able to set up on the vast majority of the meta, with its main counter-play being strong wallbreakers, Toxic, Taunt, and phazing. The ability to pick and choose sets that have differing counterplay gives Musharna an almost incomparable degree of versatility. For example, you think Musharna is on a timer from Toxic then it reveals Heal Bell or Rest. Stoutland is about to 2HKO but it runs Barrier. Pawniard or other Dark-types come in expecting monostab and Musharna pulls up with Z-Signal Beam or Z-Dazzling Gleam. Musharna has teammates to beat its checks and counter-play. I've been running Magnet Rise Probopass who can beat Mawile, Metang, Pawniard, and switches into Toxic, which has been a really successful partner. Musharna also appreciates Dark-type checks such as Poliwrath, Togetic, Silvally-Fairy, and Pokemon like Lickilicky or Muk who can switch into powerful special attackers. Musharna is very easy to support and simply uncompetitive in many cases, because of its aforementioned versatility within sets it can run and its raw bulk. Also, this gen's mechanics play an important role in how Musharna is broken. The decreased crit chance and the ability to bypass Encore, Trick, and Taunt with Z-moves all give Musharna the necessary tools to overcome traditional counterplay.

Counterarguments to why Musharna may not be broken are its passiveness, reliance on having the correct set to beat certain checks (i.e loses to Toxic if non-Heal Bell or Rest, loses to Dark-types if monostab), vulnerability to powerful special attacks, vulnerability to powerful physical attacks if it doesn't have Barrier, Moonlight having low PP makes Musharna easy to stall sometimes, and the metagame is continually adapting to it (i.e Taunt Recycle Mago Grumpig, Taunt Mawile, Misdreavus, prevalence of Toxic). Much of these downsides are mitigated through teammates, such as having checks to strong special attackers like Chatot, Beheeyem, and Mr. Mime. Hope to encourage discussion on this mon since many people feel Musharna is uncompetitve and broken.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-725320572
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-725354541
tested a new team yesterday, some replays showcasing Mushy



As of late, Ursaring has been getting lots of talk from certain council members and players alike. Many believe that Ursaring is the single most difficult Pokemon to switch into, lacking any counters. Ursaring is mostly responsible for the decline of stall and other defensive archetypes, because Guts Facade hits absurdly hard (2HKO's Tangela) and Ursaring has the necessary coverage to nail Ghost-, Steel-, and Rock-types. Moreover, Ursaring's good natural bulk allows it to sponge hits and even gives it switch-in opportunities vs weaker Pokemon such as Musharna, Misdreavus, and Silvally-Water. Defensive counterplay to Ursaring is fairly limited for a few reasons: no viable counters, forces 50/50's between resists, SD just rips apart slower teams, and Ursaring can be hard to chip down when burn is only -6% and your Pokemon get 2HKO'd. Guts Ursaring is also able to threaten offensive styles through Trick Room, Tailwind, and Webs support respectively. Partners like Scarf HW Mr. Mime, Smeargle, Illumise, and Grumpig are able to support Ursaring's main weaknesses such as low Speed and weakness to Fighting.

Personally I never really found Ursaring because being slow it's susceptible to faster attackers like Chatot, Comnusken, Rapidash, Stoutland, Rotom-Frost, Mr. Mime, etc. Plus, things like Mawile and Golem already being so popular makes it harder for Ursaring to run rampant. Misdreavus and defensive Poliwrath are also a pain for it. However, Ursaring lacks solid and consistent defensive counterplay due to its natural power and coverage, as well as being able to threaten faster Pokemon through Trick Room or Tailwind support. It has lots of tools to dominate in the tier, but isn't that splashable due to its lack of defensive utility. For me, the argument for Ursaring being broken boils down to how much it restrains defensive styles and teams from being successful, and how it forces the meta to become more offensive.

One more note: I know Quick Feet Ursaring is a thing, and it definitely plays into its viability, but it is not on the level of the Guts sets. It allows Ursaring to outspeed and kill most things under base 106 Speed, however it is noticeably weaker and easier to chip down.



Here is perhaps the most controversial Pokemon of the bunch and for good reason. Rotom-Frost is the most influential Pokemon in the tier, being both extremely splashable and centralizing. Rotom-Frost forces every team to run a BoltBeam check, run Pokemon faster than 298 Speed, and it sets the benchmark for Choice Scarf users. Icium Z and Choice Scarf alike provide unmatched offensive and defensive attributes, such as having a nearly unwalled stab combo, solid natural bulk, Levitate, and various utility options like Trick, Defog, Pain Split, and Will-O-Wisp. These two sets alone force an absurd amount of 50/50's when Rotom-Frost comes in, because it can either Volt Switch into a wallbreaker, kill something with Blizzard, cripple a switch-in with Trick, and so on. Rotom-Frost can also fit onto every style and run a variety of sets to adapt to that respective style. For example, Choice Specs Frostom can fit onto balance builds that need a powerful wallbreaker and pivot. A bulkier set with Pain Split and Defog can fit onto stall, countering opposing Rotom-Frost and killing common Rockers and Defoggers. Safety Goggles sets let it fit seamlessly into sand since it's such a good partner to Stoutland. The same goes for rain and Damp Rock Rain Dance. These sounds like sub par sets, but they are perfectly viable and work extremely well on those teams.

Rotom-Frost being suspect worthy has always been a hot topic, even when we decided to suspect Stoutland first. In practice, Rotom-Frost can be a lot less threatening because of its SR weakness, lower Speed if not Choice Scarf (thus being easier to check), and how the meta has adapted to it. It can even be argued that the shifts have made Rotom-Frost worse, because Fire-types and in turn Grumpig have become a lot more popular than before. In contrast to that, Silvally forms being so popular have alleviated Frostom's Rocks weakness, and it has a fantastic matchup against Sticky Web due to Levitate. Also, Rotom-Frost can be very difficult to check in itself because clicking Volt Switch allows it to escape almost any bad matchup. Of course, Choice Scarf sets and Icium Z sets are not overpowered or broken on their own, but the effect Rotom-Frost has on the metagame is very centralizing. The question is, does Frostom affect the metagame in such an unhealthy way that it needs to be banned?



I'm pressed for time rn so I'll try to be concise. Vigoroth is a very uncompetitive Pokemon due to its ability to set up on the majority of the meta and similarly to Musharna, bypass usual counterplay with Taunt or Substitute. The effect Stoutland has on the metagame allows Vigoroth to use typical Normal-checks like Mawile or Tangela as set up fodder. Viggy has all the tools it needs -bulk, Speed, set up moves- to be a potentially broken Pokemon. The metagame has never truly adapted to it because it just hasn't been used a lot, so I believe we need to take a close look at it before we judge it as suspect worthy or not.
 
#57
Since 5gen wrote his thoughts, I gonna do the same :

Suspect worthy :


Mushy is certainly the more broken thing which stands in ZU right now. Bugnium Z, CM Barrier, CM Z-Heal bell, classical Mushyny... are all so effective to make trouble to the opposite team. If every single set it runs have counters, it's impossible to know in advance what it took as moves. Without Dark types, the CM Barrier Stored set 6-0 whole team only at the team preview. Its supposed passivity hide the fact that this dream eater loves wearing a Z-Move which removes whatever mon who could deal with stuff like trick, taunt, encore. If you thought run a dark type like shiftry or pawniard was enough to prevent to be swept, you will be really disappointed to know that Bugnium Z/Fairium Z is a thing and it OHKO both of them at +1. You need several answers in a team to be able to bypass it which restricts hugely the teambuilding. And if all that wasn't enough to convince you, let me say that Mushy doesn't need a particular support to work, it's very splashable and can be incorporate in any team you wish.



I noticed a lot of people don't understand why frosttom is suspect worthy so I would like to clarify the reasons why a large part of the community thinks it could be suspected.

The first thing I wanna say is Rotom-Frost is indeed not broken. It has common ways to deal with as revenge killing it with faster scarfs or counter or check it with various answer. Without trick, it's unable to beat in 1vs1 stuff like grumpig, chinchou, seaking, probopass, regice, muk, bronzor,... With trick, it's more annoying to kill it with defensive answers in 1vs1 but it is not still broken.

So why do we think it will be a good idea to suspect frosttom if it is not broken ? Because it is unhealthy and overcentralizing.

Unhealthy because fight against Rotom-Frost is a story of 50/50 always in its favor. Blizzard or Volt Switch ? Trick or Icium Z ? Pain Split or Substitute ? If you answered wrong, you lose one mon. If you answer right at all the 50/50, congratulation, you have weaken frosttom or gain the momentum. The situation isn't only totally unbalanced, the situation is also based on chance and required none skills. A decision completely rationnal is impossible to take if you didn't receive the pastebin of the opposite team just before. For example, a combinaison of Frosttom icium-z and Stoutland Band Pursuit cannot be rationnaly anticipated and a lot of players will lose stupidly their grumpig in believing it's a good answer to frosttom whatever it does. Same with muk, you thought it was a good frosttom switch-in due to its high special bulk and sticky hold but did you know Icium-Z + Blizzard remove 80% of your life ? You should.

And that's why Frosttom is overcentralizing. A lot of people think that overcentralizing mean the mon suspected is too much played. That's false, overcentralizing means the metagame is too much centralized around the banworthy mon, here Rotom-Frost. To prevent the stories above with the fridge clicks without pressure volt-switch and then send a physical wallbreaker, an electric immunity is often required to force Frosttom to do blizzard. It means one thing, to be on the same level of pressure than frosttom requires two mons, one who counters it and an other with an electry immunity to stop volt switch. It restricts the teambuilding. But there is worse, you understand it stays very risky because almost every electric mmunity is OHKO by Icium-Z. It exists only two mon in zu who have the ability to stop volt switch and counter Rotom-Frost : chinchou and AV seaking. These two mons are normally trash, who the hell will use as special answer a mon like chinchou who has 75 HP/56 SpD as bs and only 36 in def with absolutely none utility move bar heal bell ? Who the hell will use seaking when we have stuff like Relicanth and with AV for I dont know what dark reasons ? Actually they are both used and pretty decent, only thanks to Frosttom. Rotom-Frost makes bad mon legit to use.

On the fence


I can take a lot of time talking about Vigo but I will be quick on this. I think it is broken, very difficult to deal with if you don't have a ghost type or a strong fighting type. Stuff like encore, knock off aren't enough to break it. However, the meta isn't kind with it for the moment so it's difficult to have a good opinion. It needs a good support to avoid to be weaken by hazards or shot down by set-up sweeper. What is certain is it 6-0 unprepared teams and even if you have taking into account vigo in your teambuild, it stays difficult to deal with.

It's unforunately the only replay I've saved where I fight a Vigo. Honnestly, I should have lost in being swept by vigy, only a right anticipation in the right moment saved me. It shows even if you have an answer to vigy (silvally fight here), it's very painthful to deal with if you don't have a really strong wallbreaker or stuff like encore. Vs pinktidal


Dangerous mons

galifeu.PNG


Its Fire/Blast/Focus blast/Shadow claw LO set doesn't have switch-in except muk and uncommun mareanie and pyumuku SpD. The departure of Clefairy, Altaria and Swanna makes it terrific to handle, especially for offense. Impossible to revenge kill thanks to its gain of speed perpetual and because it doesn't care of three of the five priorities used in ZU, basically sucker punch of pawniard/shiftry and it stops Fake out of Purugly with Protect. If Combusken had 100% of precision on focus blast/fire blast, it would be broken.

I found these two replay very interesting to comment : Combusken vs rains team. A spectator could believe that it's a bad match up to combusken because the half of the team has +2 in speed, resist fire blast and don't have a lot of weakness to focus blast but however, speed boost is very nasty. The first battle I'm outplayed during a big part of the battle but SirCloud does the mistake to kill my grumpig instead of putting again the rain. The second battle is even more expediting because SirCloud didn't have much way to win. If he TW combusken with volbeat, he doesn't have way to put rain anymore and the rest of my team finishes or he sets up rain in hopping combusken misses.
Battle 1
Battle 2

grotadmorv.PNG


I will be quite rapid here because it's approximately the same that Mushy except it is less broken. The reason why it is only one set is really painthful to deal with, it's its curse set which not really customisable either. Except that, the same story applies here, if you don't have a steel type, you will have a lot of trouble to deal with it, it can 6-0 teams only at the team preview. Since Musharna is better in its role of wincon, muk is played almost only in teams which lack of frosttom switch-in. It stays very dangerous and I would like to see what impact it has in a meta without musharna.

Why I don't think Ursaring is suspect worthy

Ursaring.PNG


If for soms Ursaring is a problem for the tier, it's because for them Ursaring invalids the playstyle stall. I specify this aspect because a lot of people think to do not have switch-in is enough to justify a suspect test, it isn't the case. Mawile-Mega doesn't have switch-in, it's not broken anymore. Same with Exploud last gen in RU.

I could say there are way to deal with ursa in stall teams, you have mushy which handle a hit an remove 80% of its life after with its Z-Move, you have dusclops who can take 2 hits without pdr and counter/seismic toss, you can burn stall with protect, tangela can take a hit and leaf storm after that, you can anticipate if it gonna do facade/Crunch with your ghost type. 5 stallers and one offensive mon to RK has always existed like weavile stall last gen in OU or still the amazing combusken stall diagnostic does few months ago, take a pursuit stoutland is enough to trapkill the bear, etc.

But that's not the point. I would like to address an other approach because I think it's far more pertinent than just list things able to bypass Ursaring. If we suspect Ursaring, it's to make stall viable because they are totaly unviable with the presence of bear in the tier. That's the reason why stuff like Mawile-M or Hoopa aren't suspected right now in OU, stall isn't good even without them. Suspect them will make stall better but not make unviable -> shining. In other words, the argument of pro-suspect ursaring can be summerised in two points :

1) Without Ursaring, Stall is a viable playstyle in ZU
2) The only presence of Ursaring in ZU makes the playstyle invalid.

I already disputed the point two above in showing quickly that even with bear in the tier, it's possible to make a stall team valid and there are even few ways to check ursa. You don't have the match up obviously but you can still win. Now, I will show why even without Ursa, stalls have major flaws in the actual meta to be effective. This point is really important because a potential suspect doesn't have sense if not. We dont suspect for theory things but for practise things, if there are other reasons why stall isn't really viable in ZU, a ban is unnecessary.

So why stalls aren't good in ZU even in forgetting Ursa ? Because the meta is simply disgusting with the playstyle. The Z-move are in every team which make SI to simple check, Volturn is predominant and stalls in ZU have no way to deal with it (just run Frosttom + Monferno band/ninjask and you gonna laugh), hazards have never been as easy as before to stack (especially for toxic spikes/spike), we have very good users of koff as shiftry or leafeon who both destroy stall without muk, Stoutland is played pursuit nowadays, Silvally-Dark more common than never, defog users more easy to kill than ever, I would like to see the switch-in in stall to SD MB Pinsir, same with Beheyeem, same with Chatot specs (y there is not only the ursa who 6-0 stalls), taunt are played by various mons very played like grumpig, vigoroth, simipour NP, I don't know how stalls deal with rain (pyuku ?), Mushy Stored power 6-0 stalls without taunt users, the only mon able to switch one time on Machoke guts on stall is Mushy Z-Move/colbur, trick users are in one team on three, stuff like Whishiwashi, Marowak, Servine are painthful to deal with for stall and I don't ever talk about perishtrapper like Politoed or Lapras, stallbreaker like Misdreavus, SD Sub users like Hawsbuck or still the ton of resttalk users who are difficult to be weaken with indirect damages and pp stall some moves, etc.

Stalls are plyable even with Ursaring but gonna stay bad even without Ursaring.

Quick thoughts on the VR

A+ -> A . Already gave my opinion on chatot on the chatbox. I won't repeat but I wanted to point it out.

A -> S . With what I said above, I think I cannot argue more. Mushy is splashable, it supports the team and it is the more terrific thing which exists in ZU. Let it A is a crime, let it join Stoutland and Rotom-Frost on the pantheon of ZU.

A -> Lower . It was the last time I have seen Rotom-Fan and it was not glorious. You cannot seriously say this mon is as viable as grumpig, muk or combusken in a team. I know usage doesn't mean viability but what is the last time you have deliberality chosen to add R-Fan in a team ? I want to heard the reason with few replays as proof to know why its Pokemon is ranked so high.

B+ -> B . To be a special sponge 2HKO by Rotom-Frost and focus blast users isn't great in ZU. It's not either a Pokemon a lot of used recently. Its curse set is outclassed by all other wincons like muk or mushy. Its classical set isn't great either. Cradily doesn't find its place in an offensive meta dominated by Stoutland, Frosttom and Mushy.

B -> B+ . I didn't understand what it dropped tbh. Sure, SR are more present than before but it accomplishes as good as before its role of tank special. It stays a very good frosttom switch-in and its Z-Gravity set isalways threating and it likes the offensive way the meta is turning now with more mons 2HKO by its Boltbeam coverage.

B+ -> B It's not the best wincon anymore. It has trouble to set up, every team has physical answer and even at +1 it stays slow and be outspeeded by the majority of scarfers. It doesn't appreciate much the shift paradoxally. Once set up, it is as dangerous as before but that's far more difficult to reach this stage.

B -> B+ Very annoying to face tbh. It has flaws of course as it's unability to break bulky mon but otherwise it doesn't really have switch-in. Its Lo/Expert belt Wild Charge/ice Punch/earthquake or cross chop/Flamethrower destroys balanced core, a good speed tier and the opponent doesn't really know what it gonna do. Difficult to use but painthful to deal with.
 
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#58
How can i play this? It sounds really fun. Sad about swanna tho as i was reading i was like "oh boy maybe i can use swanna" the i seen the ban lol but still i wanna give this a try!
 
#59
How can i play this? It sounds really fun. Sad about swanna tho as i was reading i was like "oh boy maybe i can use swanna" the i seen the ban lol but still i wanna give this a try!
We have a private room on Pokemon Showdown called ZU, you can challenge people under the PU format or participate in room tours. You can also join the ZU discord and ask for battles there.

Edit: For the record, Swanna is PU by usage, not banned.
 
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#60
Since we don't know when will arrive the shifts, I take this moment of calm in the tier to propose some changes, especially on the lower ranks. Indeed, I already did some nominations last time about the higher ranks and I think these ranks are globally representative about what is effective in the current meta.

Here is what I have nominated one week ago. My mind hasn't changed since.
Quick thoughts on the VR

A+ -> A . Already gave my opinion on chatot on the chatbox. I won't repeat but I wanted to point it out.

A -> S . With what I said above, I think I cannot argue more. Mushy is splashable, it supports the team and it is the more terrific thing which exists in ZU. Let it A is a crime, let it join Stoutland and Rotom-Frost on the pantheon of ZU.

A -> Lower . It was the last time I have seen Rotom-Fan and it was not glorious. You cannot seriously say this mon is as viable as grumpig, muk or combusken in a team. I know usage doesn't mean viability but what is the last time you have deliberality chosen to add R-Fan in a team ? I want to heard the reason with few replays as proof to know why its Pokemon is ranked so high.

B+ -> B . To be a special sponge 2HKO by Rotom-Frost and focus blast users isn't great in ZU. It's not either a Pokemon a lot of used recently. Its curse set is outclassed by all other wincons like muk or mushy. Its classical set isn't great either. Cradily doesn't find its place in an offensive meta dominated by Stoutland, Frosttom and Mushy.

B -> B+ . I didn't understand what it dropped tbh. Sure, SR are more present than before but it accomplishes as good as before its role of tank special. It stays a very good frosttom switch-in and its Z-Gravity set isalways threating and it likes the offensive way the meta is turning now with more mons 2HKO by its Boltbeam coverage.

B+ -> B It's not the best wincon anymore. It has trouble to set up, every team has physical answer and even at +1 it stays slow and be outspeeded by the majority of scarfers. It doesn't appreciate much the shift paradoxally. Once set up, it is as dangerous as before but that's far more difficult to reach this stage.

B -> B+ Very annoying to face tbh. It has flaws of course as it's unability to break bulky mon but otherwise it doesn't really have switch-in. Its Lo/Expert belt Wild Charge/ice Punch/earthquake or cross chop/Flamethrower destroys balanced core, a good speed tier and the opponent doesn't really know what it gonna do. Difficult to use but painthful to deal with.
Again twee fast nominations about the A rank :

A -> A-
Don't get me wrong, Manectric stays a good mon in the tier. It brings speed control to the slower teams, has coverage moves which hit everybody and is generally a decent volturner and so a good support for the rest of the team. However, Manectric gets some trouble actually, every well build team runs a electric immunty, the bulky set up sweepers very scaring don't care much about it (switcheroo is quite easy to scoot) and the special answers handle it just perfectly. These factors aren't new but they are more true than ever. Manectric isn't able to put the pressure like Frosttom does. Manectric isn't able to correctly force the switch of the opponent which is very annoying because you cannot just spam volt switch and you have to spam the other moves. For a voltswitch abuser, Manectric loses too often the momentum. It has more its place a rank below than the actual A rank.

A- -> B+
The viability of Smeargle depends a lot about how its playstyle is effective in the current meta. Webs stays threaten to face but less brainless than it was when this guys dropped in ZU. People are just adapted to it. Get rid of smeargle and success to defog later in the game with one or two anticipations. Do not forget either they are bulkier teams, more common than before, which don't care much about sticky web. A part of Taunt Grumpig is played with enough speed to outspeed Smeargle nowadays, Defiant Users aren't so powerful to avoid defog, uncommon ghost type allow to run rapid spin in several teams. Finally, Sticky Webs appears like Trick Room a playstyle too much match up based to be spammed effectively.

Here is two replays to illustrate what I said. I did some missplays (idk why I try to kill Missy with wild charge) but these show well the troubles manectric and webs have nowadays.
Battle 1 (Manectric)
Battle 2 (Manectric + Smeargle)

Lower ranks

Rises

C -> B-
The Z-Celebrate set is annoying to deal with. With the right support, Glaceon is able to kill at least one or two mons before being killed by a member of your team in the best case. Only Regice, Mareanie and Pyukumuku handle it perfectly and they are all quite rare. The bigger flaw of Glaceon is that it is a mon difficult to support perfectly which makes it uncommon to face but do not forget usage doesn't mean viability. It is one of the more threaten mon to meet in a battle, its ability to get rid of classical balanced core and to sweep weaken teams is enough for me to justify a rise in B-.


B- -> B
The Shadow Ball/Hp Fight/Calm Mind/Rest Chesto Unburden is an excellent wincon which threats muk/vigo/mushy. It justifies fully a rise. The replay is certainly not the best one because my opponent and I have choked both 1 million time in the battle but it's just to illustrate the power of the set.
Battle (Driblim)


Drops

B+ -> B
The new toy syndrom is over and we see in a more accurate way the flaw of this mon. I cannot say if it lacks of power, of bulk or maybe both but it lacks of something to be more effective. Generally Dugtrio comes on the board, weaken without kill the foe and die just after. Dug woud like to get the sash, the Z-Move and the band in a single set. Sand Force in sand correct a bit these problems but requires of course an huge support to work. Torterra hard counter it, Dug can just in the better case toxic it and then die, the Sivallys deal with it without too much problems. Fast Memento is great but it's a shame to play a mon only to sacrifie it. Do not forget either that Dugtrio isn't splashable at all like teammate. You will prefere always an other option instead. If you have the choice, you will never bring it as physical attacker. You need Dug in a team only in few rare moments where no others mon fit, you are almost forced to want to play it in a team to add it. Dugtrio isn't bad but has no much reasons to be played, drop it.


B -> B-
Armaldo isn't less good than before, I just think B- is more accurate for it, next to Sandslash. Arma is a soft check to Stout but weak to SR is bad so they are globally equivalent. Webs team are less seen than before too so rapid spin loses a bit of its utility.


B -> B-/C+
Its Choice band set is meh. Dusknoir performs only in TR setter and isn't the best one either in this role. Basically it puts the TR and then suicide itself with Memento or Z-Memento and even if it is not bad at all in this function it's really a specific niche. Dusknoir is effective only in TR and absolutely not mandatory inside, B is unfortunately far too high for what it really does in the ZU Meta. That's too bad, I like a lot this mon.


B -> B-
Noctowl requires a stupid level of support to be effective and a large number of turns. Its best set is certainly the Agility Work Up one but that's really difficult to set up. Even if they don't have exactly the same role, after some tests you will realize chatot specs in just better in the majority of the situations. There are not a lot of reasons to use still noctowl, especially since except soundproof users, they have also the same checks.

B -> B-
Too passive. It has utility only in stall which isn't the best playstyle for the moment (and it isn't either absolutely mandatory in this playstyle). When Togetic arrives in the battlefield, it is the signal for all set up sweepers to come have fun in front of it. It's an issue really annoying considering bulky set up sweepers like muk, mushy or vigoroth are the more powerful things in ZU right now. Silvally-Fairy outclasses it in approximately all the situations, Togetic needs to drop.

B -> B-
Do not get me wrong once again, Golduck is strong with the correct support. Its main niche is in rain sweeper which is the more effective "special" playstyle played in ZU. If I want the duck drops for a rank, it's simply because I think B- is more accurated to represent its viability in the tier. It's a threaten rain abuser but requires an important support (basically a whole rain team) to be effective. It's not like Poliwrath used outside rain and cannot be too the only rain abuser in a team to work correctly. That's why in my opinion a B- rank is better for it.

B- -> C+
Munchlax isn't less good than before but there is actually no much reasons to play it. As I said above, Mushy, Vigo, Muk are all very effective in the current meta and you will choose rather them like wincon than baby Snorlax. Munchlax is just outclassed for the moment, you gonna play it only if your team is very weak to fire and ice, that's all.

B- -> C+
Only effective in TR in Eruption abuser (the sr set is bad) and not mandatory inside. Camerupt is simply more a niche mon only effective with the right support than a good mon splashable in your team. It's not less good than before but has no many reasons to be played and can be generally substitute by an other breaker in tr teams.

B- -> C+
Screens have never been great in whatever meta. If Meowstic can be scary to face, it's because you know just after there is a set up sweeper (Huntail, Pinsir,...) who can easily take boosts. The problem is there are better ways to do that, run Parting shot or Memento in a team and you have the same results without being passive. Indeed, when Meowstic come on the board you know what will happen the four next turns and you can easily anticipate that to prevent to be swept. It's not the case if the opponent runs Silvally or Memento user, you don't know when will try to set up his pokemon. A bad mon to be honnest.

C+ -> Unranked
I maybe missed something but what Illumise concretely does ? What's the point ? I don't really know

C -> Unranked
Outclassed by Sandslash/Armaldo in spinner, by Camerupt in Eruption abuser under TR, by Magcargo (lol) in Shell Smash Abuser. Torkoal is useless, it has no utility, unrank it.

C- -> Unranked
Be immunised to a resisted type isn't enough to justify a rank. There is no reason to play it instead of Silvally-Water. Bye Lumy, we liked you... in 6gen.

C- -> Unranked
This mon tricks AV... Ummm did this strategy already work ? I don't think so. Unrank
 
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#62
Tier shifts are here!

Here are our full changes:

Rises (to PU):
-Fairy

Drops (to ZU):


Okay. We got a lot of offense this time around. Smash Crustle, Alolan Dugtrio, Jynx, Liepard, Lurantis, and Lycanroc are all threatening offensive mons, while Shuckle and Crustle can be good leads for offense. A loss of Silvally-Fairy and Stoutland will hurt balance considerably and a loss of Ursaring will help stall teams quite a bit. I would write more, but I have another announcement...



The ZU Council has decided to suspect test Musharna. As you are probably aware, Musharna has been in our metagame since January and has always been a solid setup sweeper with Calm Mind sets, often coupled with a Z-Move to get around Taunt and break through Dark-types (or, in Z-Heal Bell's case, status). Recently, however, another Musharna set has been increasing in popularity; namely, the set consisting of Barrier/Calm Mind/Rest/STAB move. While this set is by no means unbeatable, being countered by most Taunt users and Swords Dance Dark-types (Shiftry, Pawniard), it has wildly different counterplay when compared to the Buginium Z and Fairium Z sets. The fact that it also tends to use Psychium Z on the Rest set means that even Taunt users could get stalled out. This has made Musharna into a terrifying presence that the council has deemed suspect-worthy. We understand that it's weird to suspect immediately after drops, but we gained no significant counterplay to it and waiting longer was seen as a bad idea by our council.

Over the course of the next two weeks, 5 suspect tours will be held in our private room on Pokemon Showdown. The winners of these tours will be allowed to vote. In addition, our council members will be allowed to vote if they make a decent-quality post regarding Musharna in this thread.

The exact times for the suspect tours will be announced at least 24 hours in advance in this thread. Now feel free to discuss both Musharna and our new metagame!
 
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allstarapology

MEAT DIMENSION
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
#70
hi. i play this tier. don't have much of an opinion on musharna, so i'll just do as i always do and post about drops.

Alolan Dugtrio seems pretty cool. I feel as if it can pull of Choice Scarf, Life Orb, and SubToxic sets a bit better due to its secondary typing, and though it is slower than its Kanto forme, it's not by that much. Still has the same support options that regular Dugtrio has, but the Speed tier is a bit too good pass up with a Memento user. I've also seen suicide lead sets before, but other Pokemon like Lycanroc do the job better.


Crustle brings another entry hazard lead that can set both Stealth Rock and Spikes to the tier, which makes offensive teams a bit better, since they don't have to rely entirely on Dwebble and Smeargle. Knock Off utility is always nice, and it isn't completely limited to a suicide lead either due to its access to Shell Smash, though I'm not entirely sure on how good such a set would be.


Broken.


Liepard will fare well, I feel. It's very versatile, capable of using a variety of sets ranging from Choice Band to Nasty Plot to an offensive pivot to a weather setter, and discerning which set it's using can difficult from Team Preview alone. The Speed tier is also pretty solid, and it also brings another Pursuit trapper to the tier. Prankster in tandem with moves like Encore, Copycat, and Thunder Wave can also be rather annoying for teams to deal with, and these options can prove useful for supporting teammates. Ban Jynx.


Lurantis brings a defensive Defogger to the tier that isn't entirely passive. Though its offenses and Speed are pretty mediocre, Contrary in combination with Leaf Storm and Superpower help to mitigate this, its bulk is pretty decent, and its access to valuable support options such as the aforementioned Defog, Synthesis, and Aromatherapy is important to note as well.


Lycanroc can pull off both a suicide lead set and a Swords Dance with Lycanium Z. The former is actually pretty solid courtesy of its high Speed tier, good offensive presence, and access to Taunt, Endeavor, and Accelerock to prevent Defog and potentially Pokemon from matches, respectively, and the latter is actually pretty threatening thanks to Splintered Stormshards (did i remember this name correctly..?) being pretty powerful, its decent coverage in Drill Run and Fire Fang, and priority in Accelerock improving its matchup versus super offensive teams.


Finally, Shuckle provides another Sticky Web user that actually has defensive presence on top of not needing to use Focus Sash and having access to solid support options in Encore, Stealth Rock, and Toxic. ... That's all there is to it, I guess. I suppose Contrary Shell Smash exists too.
overall, fun drops; looking forward to playing more zu.
 
#71
After playing around with Jynx, I think that its overall incredible, and counterplay depends on what set you are using. Lovely kiss is amazing, clicking Lovely Kiss on the switch and setting up a NP can get out of control, and Z lovely kiss can instantly sweep once the opponents scarfer is removed. Other sets such as Never-Ending Nightmare can be a good lure to defensive ghost types such as misdreavus and dusknoir. Subsitute can also be great, especially against Stall. I'm not sure if Jynx is too much for the tier, but if it gets ranked, It should go to A+ or S
 

Ktütverde

Always turning thoughts into things
is a Tiering Contributor
#73
Hello, is it possible to add a "good core" part in this forum? I don't know if you can move a post to the first page, maybe add the cores at the end of the role compendium idk. This would be extremely, extra-extremely useful because getting started to ZU by asking challs in the room is a thing, but having a "thread" with the cores and their standard sets would provide a great amount of information since official sets arent posted anywhere. Clicking "probopass+tangela" means that 1) you know its a good core so ur team wont start completely poor and wont require many changes 2)you can import the two sets and dont have to ask "yo guys what is a good tangela spread? and probopass? what moves pls?". I know you staffmembers don't mind helping newcomers but still that would spare u a lot of time. I really stress on this I feel it's important and will help everybody, people can just submit cores here and you add them, will take u some time to do it but the database of ZU will be much greater after that!

So I'm asking a "good cores" part including their standard sets which are the info I need the most and many people would love having, while alleviating the burden of answering questions/posting codes in the chat for u great staff members. Keep up with the good job, ZU is worth it!
 
#74
Hello, is it possible to add a "good core" part in this forum? I don't know if you can move a post to the first page, maybe add the cores at the end of the role compendium idk. This would be extremely, extra-extremely useful because getting started to ZU by asking challs in the room is a thing, but having a "thread" with the cores and their standard sets would provide a great amount of information since official sets arent posted anywhere. Clicking "probopass+tangela" means that 1) you know its a good core so ur team wont start completely poor and wont require many changes 2)you can import the two sets and dont have to ask "yo guys what is a good tangela spread? and probopass? what moves pls?". I know you staffmembers don't mind helping newcomers but still that would spare u a lot of time. I really stress on this I feel it's important and will help everybody, people can just submit cores here and you add them, will take u some time to do it but the database of ZU will be much greater after that!

So I'm asking a "good cores" part including their standard sets which are the info I need the most and many people would love having, while alleviating the burden of answering questions/posting codes in the chat for u great staff members. Keep up with the good job, ZU is worth it!
Actually you can see standard sets of a Pokémon by clicking on its name in the Viability Ranking.
 
#75
I'm just a bit confused on how a tier can receive a ton of new drops and a few rises and decide to suspect something. The metagame hasn't adjusted to all the new things yet, I don't think its fair to test something in an unsettled meta. What's the philosophy on this? Seems kinda unprofessional to me. Musharna is really good, yes, but it doesn't even matter on the state of the tier at that point - we just had a huge tier shift and you're asking people to make an "informed" decision based on a metagame that is undeveloped and can't really see how things are affected.
 

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