Resource ZU Old Gens Hub - ADV Unfrozen & Quickbans #311

[btboy]

for clarification are these gmt -5 or gmt itself?

GMT.

 

[Procrastinasian]

Marowak/Gorebyss suspect tours have concluded!

Thank you to everyone who participated, and congrats to our winners Toto, Tuthur, Charles A. Theist, czim, 5Dots, and JonAmon 25. The deadline for council members and suspect qualifiers to cast their vote is Friday, December 17th at 11:59 PM GMT -5.

Council will be deliberating on Marowak and Gorebyss between now and then, and reqs-getters are welcome to do the same or engage in discussion as they see fit. I will be contacting the suspect qualifiers shortly with steps on how to vote. Thanks again to everyone who took an interest in the metagame!

 

[Procrastinasian]

The Marowak and Gorebyss suspect vote has concluded! There were seven (7) ban votes for Marowak, zero (0) do not ban votes, and four (4) abstentions, so Marowak will be banned from DPP ZU. There were six (6) ban votes for Gorebyss, one (1) do not ban vote, and four (4) abstentions, so Gorebyss will also be banned from DPP ZU. The reasonings and votes are listed here.

DPP Council will continue to look into rain and damp rock as a potential issue in the near future, as well as provide more sample teams. Happy teambuilding!

 

[Procrastinasian]

The legendary triple post, sorry lads.

Drud has stepped down from DPP ZU Council. Drud was a big voice in helping get our first shifts in 2 years, and we thank him for his contributions to the tier. Additionally, we welcome sexywooper as the newest member of our Council! Congratulations.

 

[czim]

Announcement regarding BW ZU

thebtboy is the new tier leader. Congrats to him and thank you for all the hard work you've done so far to the tier. Now go rank Palpitoad​

 

[rumia]

absolutely love the new banner for bw zu! also congrats btboy ^_^

 

[5Dots]

I’ve played with a lot of BW recently with thebtboy lately, shoutouts for the games and insight! From the changes regarding the Glalie and Trubbish bans, I’ve been able to enjoy the meta a lot more without worrying about leading off with 50-50s on hazards. One of the playstyles I’ve tried out was Sun. While I believe this is a niche playstyle in the metagame, this can now be run much more comfortably.

Sun Mons

Onix @ Heat Rock
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Sunny Day
- Explosion
With access to Rocks, Taunt, Explosion, a solid speed tier, and Sturdy Onix is bar none the best lead on dedicated sun teams. unless there’s faster taunt users and mons that begin to run with bullet seed happens, onix is guaranteed to get sun up and taunt something in the process, providing momentum for the team. While it is preferable to allow Onix to be in the lead slot, if you predict a faster taunt user like Emolga or Persian will come in, then another pokemon, like Leafeon can come in instead.

Weepinbell @ Life Orb / Eviolite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Growth
- Sludge Bomb
- Solar Beam
- Weather Ball
Weepinbell is the premier special attacker with a good special attack, two terrific dual STABs, and Weather ball. In contrast to Leafeon who has difficulty justifying running HP Fire for Wormadam-S, Weepinbell just destroys it. Eviolite can be run to give it more defenses, but it misses out on the power when running life orb. Weepinbell is able to destroy Meganium and Frillish, two titans of the ZU meta, but will struggle against Munchlax.

Leafeon @ Life Orb / Lum Berry
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Naughty Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Double-Edge
- Synthesis / Hidden Power Fire
Leafeon is the best physical sun sweeper, possessing an excellent speed tier, good physical bulk and good attack. When combined with synthesis, leafeon tends to last longer than other sun sweepers. Again, Life orb makes the most out of leafeon’s power, though i actually like Lum berry too to prevent unexpected paralysis from munchlax’s body slams or frillish’s will-o-wisp. Hidden power fire can be run to deal with wormadam better, though I find it very hard to justify otherwise.

Illumise (F) @ Heat Rock
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Encore
- U-turn
- Sunny Day
Illumise isn’t limited to the Specs + Tinted Lens set - it is the go-to weather setter with Volbeat in PU. With Encore to prevent setup and Thunder Wave for Speed Control, illumise is extremely reliable at setting sun and can be annoying to deal with.

Simisear @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Solar Beam
- Fire Blast
- Superpower
- Hidden Power [Rock]
Simisear has excellent coverage choices and a terrific speed tier under sun, which makes it quite scary with its mixed coverage. The coverage choices allows it to target the big three (munchlax, frillish, meganium) while using HP Rock against itself and flareon.

Flareon @ Expert Belt
Ability: Guts
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Flame Charge
- Shadow Ball
- Superpower
- Fire Blast
Flareon is underrated as a breaker, and is insanely difficult to switch into after 1 flame charge boost. I tended not to go for life orb since its low speed leaves it vulnerable to taking a hit, so i slotted Expert belt to still give it high offensive presence while not chipping away at its longevity. Like Simisear, it hits the big 3, but tends to be more of a setup sweeper late-game that cleans with access to flame charge.

Leavanny @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Bug Buzz
- Solar Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Air Slash
Leavanny @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- X-Scissor
- Poison Jab
While far from the first choice to use as a sun sweeper due to its stealth rock weakness and shallow movepool, Leavanny still has the tools to be a perfectly fine choice with an extra bug STAB to destroy Meganium and frillish. Leavanny has good mixed attacking stats and can afford to go on either side of the spectrum. I considered running Toxic or Grass Whistle, but this often costs momentum and most sun sweepers prefer to attack rather than status when sun is up.

Other Sets I’ve had fun trying out!

Lairon @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Stealth Rock
- Head Smash
- Endeavor
- Metal Burst
At first, you’d assume this set was gimmicky and wasted Lairon’s bulk. What this does is function as a hyper-offense lead and lure threats like Mienfoo in, expecting an easy OHKO with High Jump Kick. However, sturdy ensures Lairon can survive and retaliate with Metal Burst, and the complete lack of defense EVs causes even weaker attacks, like Frillish’s scald to completely flop against them! Custap Berry ensures that Lairon will be guaranteed to survive and either get stealth rock up or provide momentum for the team with head smash. Of course, the standard stealth rock set will always be better, but this is a nice lure to catch foes looking to easily pick it off.

Articuno @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Ice Beam
With such great defensive stats and Pressure, Articuno can reliably pull off a SubToxic set against the likes of Arbok and special Flareon. With 95 special attack, it isn’t passive against most neutral foes and can reliably annoy worn down teams. Even with a typing far from ideal, I still think this bird deserves more credit than usual. I’ve found running offensive variants as a great lure to wreck Lairon, one of its biggest counters.


Thanks for reading!

 

[Hera]

BW ZU post


Please ban Dragonair before the Breadwinners tour. This mon is absurdly dumb between its two sets, and despite them sharing the same moves (for the most part), a simple EV and ability change is all that is needed to flip counterplay on its heads. The defensive set is the better one imo and can be dealt with by using Steel-types, but not only are there so little Steels in the tier, all of them can be removed with little support (Magnemite, chips from hazards) due to their lack of non-Rest recovery, and none of them beyond Roar Larion and SD Pawn can threaten back. But wait, it gets Dragon Tail, so phasing it is just not consistent counterplay at times. Offensive counterplay is also limited, as it boils down to your own Dragonair, Shelgon, or some Ice-types that are uncommon and rarely used in a tier where it is hard to get Stealth Rock off. Currently, the most consistent counterplay I've found is faster Taunt user to stop DD/Rest + a Steel-type + another phaser like Munchlax, but not only is that inconsistent because the Taunt user has to play 50/50s between DD and attacking move (or just hope the Dragonair isn't EVed to outspeed you at +1), but I would argue it's overcentralizing to use 2-3 mons to beat another one and still lose to it. Imo Dragonair has an unhealthy presence on the meta and I think it is banworthy.

I put Shelgon here not because I'm convinced it's broken, but because I have this feeling if Dragonair gets banned, Shelgon will replace it and do the same thing all over again, albeit to a lesser extent. Granted, a decent part of the DD set's niche comes from 1v1ing Dragonair, so I am not sure if a Shelgon in a Dragonairless meta would be banworthy. Still, I put it here because they do share a lot of similarities and I wanted to spark some discussion.

 

[Toto]

Gm ZU, the long awaited ORAS VR update is finally complete! Here is the Voting Sheet

Rises

A > A+
A- > A
A- > A
A- > A
B+ > A
A- > A
B+ > A-
B > A-
B- > B
B- > B
C+ > B
C- > C
UR > C-
UR > C-
UR > C-

Drops

S > A+
(large): A+ > A
A > B+
A > B+
A- > B+
A- > B+
B+ > B
B > B-
B > C+
B- > C
B > C+
C+ > C
C+ > C
C+ > C-
C+ > C-
C > UR
C- > UR
C- > UR

 

[Joetherapper]

BW ZU post


Please ban Dragonair before the Breadwinners tour. This mon is absurdly dumb between its two sets, and despite them sharing the same moves (for the most part), a simple EV and ability change is all that is needed to flip counterplay on its heads. The defensive set is the better one imo and can be dealt with by using Steel-types, but not only are there so little Steels in the tier, all of them can be removed with little support (Magnemite, chips from hazards) due to their lack of non-Rest recovery, and none of them beyond Roar Larion and SD Pawn can threaten back. But wait, it gets Dragon Tail, so phasing it is just not consistent counterplay at times. Offensive counterplay is also limited, as it boils down to your own Dragonair, Shelgon, or some Ice-types that are uncommon and rarely used in a tier where it is hard to get Stealth Rock off. Currently, the most consistent counterplay I've found is faster Taunt user to stop DD/Rest + a Steel-type + another phaser like Munchlax, but not only is that inconsistent because the Taunt user has to play 50/50s between DD and attacking move (or just hope the Dragonair isn't EVed to outspeed you at +1), but I would argue it's overcentralizing to use 2-3 mons to beat another one and still lose to it. Imo Dragonair has an unhealthy presence on the meta and I think it is banworthy.

I put Shelgon here not because I'm convinced it's broken, but because I have this feeling if Dragonair gets banned, Shelgon will replace it and do the same thing all over again, albeit to a lesser extent. Granted, a decent part of the DD set's niche comes from 1v1ing Dragonair, so I am not sure if a Shelgon in a Dragonairless meta would be banworthy. Still, I put it here because they do share a lot of similarities and I wanted to spark some discussion.

Seconding this, through my limited time in this tier I've stolen several wins through setting up with Dragonair and the tier simply being to weak to break it or wall it. It's longevity, ability to remove status, and chance to roll outrage without even needing to be locked in is too much for the tier.

 

[AM]

BW ZU post


Please ban Dragonair before the Breadwinners tour.....AM snip

Thirding the Dragonair part and a lot of replays of the tour I've been watching Dragonair can tech to deal with would be checks, one of many examples here. Not really sold on the whole Shelgon bit and it probably won't be an issue, one of the things setting them apart is Dragonairs access to Espeed, higher speed tier, and Shed Skin among other coverage options. But Dragonair is definitely something that needs to be looked at since covering it in-game is quite a challenge especially against offenses in this replay and others.

 

[btboy]

Thirding the Dragonair part and a lot of replays of the tour I've been watching Dragonair can tech to deal with would be checks, one of many examples here. Not really sold on the whole Shelgon bit and it probably won't be an issue, one of the things setting them apart is Dragonairs access to Espeed, higher speed tier, and Shed Skin among other coverage options. But Dragonair is definitely something that needs to be looked at since covering it in-game is quite a challenge especially against offenses in this replay and others.

Council has been keeping a close eye on Dragonair for the past week or so and will continue to review replays and discuss it throughout Round 1. Any hypothetical tiering action would affect Round 2, at the earliest, but we're monitoring Dragonair for sure. I'll probably put pen to paper on it sometime within the next week or so once I've seen enough replays to feel convicted in my opinion on it.

 

[czim]

Some announcements regarding old gens leadership and councils ​

GSC ZU - Charles A. Theist, Holly and t045t3r have stepped down from council. Thanks for helping GSC ZU during the early stages, you guys helped us bring the tier from the ground up! BeatsBlack, Earthworm and JonAmon 25 are taking over! Congrats to all of you!

ADV ZU - Aaronboyer has stepped down from tier leader and council after being at the tier's helm for a long time. Thank you for your contributions over the years! I am taking over as tier leader for now and sexywooper will be joining our council in Aaron's spot. Congrats!

ORAS ZU - 5gen has stepped down from his last position of power in ZU after the VR update and Toto is now leading ORAS ZU. Congrats! Additionally, a fruitshop owner stepped down from council! Thank you for your work!

SM ZU - 5gen stepped down from tier leader and I'm taking over for now. Thanks for all you've done to ZU during all these years! Also, a fruitshop owner stepped down from council! Thank you for your work!

And no, I am not hoarding old gens

 

[btboy]

BW ZU Council will be holding a quickban slate on Dragonair this weekend.

The increasing prevalence of DD + 3 Attacks sets with HP Fighting, as well as offensive spreads in general, have made traditional counters like Lairon less reliable, especially when said counters are often responsible for answering common Dragonair partners. Furthermore, 'last mon Dragonair' has proven to be concerning with its ability to circumvent phazing tactics that are more effective in the early- to mid-game. Dragon Tail sets, while more niche, also accomplish this. At the moment, Dragonair's sets demand different counterplay, which makes it even harder to account for in the builder.

Dragonair's emergence as a centralizing threat warrants immediate attention, particularly within the context of a large tournament like this, which is why council has opted for a quickban slate rather than a suspect test. We will continue discussing internally and reviewing replays as they come in, and we hope that the community will continue to provide their personal feedback on Dragonair in the meantime.

The voting slate can be found here.

Please note that any hypothetical tiering action will not go into effect until Round 2.

 

[5Dots]

Been messing around the BW ladder a lot and I was going to post some thoughts:

Low -> High
Although it possesses the worst ability in the tier without question, in practice i think Slaking is an exceptional revenge killer and Pursuit trapper. Its stats are well known to be the highest in the tier, and with coveted coverage in Earthquake, very few Pokemon can reliably stave off its Normal + Ground + Dark coverage multiple times throughout the game. While cores like Vullaby and Lairon can make Slaking’s job as a wallbreaker prediction-reliant, all it takes is one incorrect prediction from the opponent to completely fail. Slaking’s excellent physical bulk enables it to take on dangerous threats like Dragonair and Emolga with impunity, especially with knock off support from the likes of Eelektrik, Mienfoo or Simisear. Given how prominent Stealth Rock is, it doesn’t take a lot of chip to put foes into KO range.
Here are some calcs to demonstrate how obsencely powerful it is in terms of bulk and strength:

Banded Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Slaking switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Emolga: 231-272 (92 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Slaking switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Persian: 229-270 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Slaking Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simisear: 222-262 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Slaking switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 250-296 (79.8 - 94.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Mid -> High
While Meganium and Leafeon are more often than not discussed as Grass-types with their cleric abilities, Gloom is more than capable as acting as one of the premier physical walls. What separates Gloom from them is its access to a secondary Poison-typing. While staving off Mienfoo better is nice, the key benefit is its positive matchups against Leafeon and Meganium itself, while still being able to keep itself healthy thanks to Leech Seed + Synthesis. Gloom also offers a mid-ground between Leafeon and Meganium’s defensive stats - it is better than Leafeon in Special Defense, and it is actually bulkier than Leafeon and Meganium physically! Notably, it can survive a Flying Gem Acrobatics from Emolga and can finish it off if it is weakened enough, something offensive Leafeon and Meganium can only dream to boast. Gloom still reliably can check the likes of Lairon, Persian, and Kingler reliably, and checks Lairon better thanks to the increased defense compared to Meganium and the recovery provided by Giga Drain. While Gloom was already considered to be a strong pick as a wall, with how prevalent such threats are, I argue its defensive capabilities are unrivaled in ZU.

Defensive Calcs

252 Atk Flying Gem Emolga Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Leafeon: 300-354 (110.7 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (offensive Leafeon)
252 Atk Flying Gem Emolga Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Leafeon: 248-294 (74.2 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (defensive Leafeon)
252 Atk Flying Gem Emolga Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Meganium: 372-440 (102.1 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (standard Meganium)
252 Atk Flying Gem Emolga Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gloom: 224-266 (69.3 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (standard Gloom)

Knock Off
Knock Off, as many know, was used more for utility prior to gen 6. While Eelektrikk pulls off Knock Off more reliably, Simisear’s insane threat potential with coverage and high attacking stats makes me feel it’s more than capable of utilizing this move. Munchlax and Frillish were just about everywhere on a team, so it wasn’t a difficult choice to swap Hidden Power for this. While Life Orb Hidden Power Grass at +2 does nuke Frillish and Nasty Plot + Fighting Gem nuke munchlax, the latter set relies on prediction to successfully take out munchlax in a clean sweep while both sets are prone to missing and getting paralyzed by Munch. Knock + Expert Belt covers the accuracy issues while providing general utility for the team. Not only does this still reliably defeat both of them without fear of missing, but it covers against additional threats like Grumpig and Walrein that might think about switching in to special sets.
Suicide Leads (UR -> Low)
I was surprised at how they were left out of the most recent VR slate. Both have recently been popular picks ( as well but this has 0 offensive presence, and Lairon is slow and prediction-reliant) for the lead slot in hyper-offense archetypes, with both having appealing qualities as a lead: Bibarel is the fastest viable Stealth Rock lead (sorry Anorith and Diglett) and has decent offensive presence with 85 Atk and access to Taunt + Thunder Wave for speed control. Bibarel particularly stands out due to how it outspeeds some of the most popular Stealth Rock setters, Lunatone and Solrock, in addition to dealing super effective damage to them. Faster taunt leads, like Persian and Emolga, have to rely on 50-50s to fail to prevent it from setting up Rocks or just attacking. Archen is less popular, but is something I’ve found to be quite neat as well. While being slower than Lunatone, Solrock, and speed tying with Onix hurts it, what differs it is by virtue of u-turn, head smash, and endeavor. while u-turn enables it to generate momentum, it’s middling speed causes it to be more awkward to bring in teammates in. What i think works is stealth rock + taunt + head smash + endeavor: unlike bibarel, Archen can more reliably trade with foes when hit, which Bibarel can only try to hit for super effective damage or paralyze with.

Thoughts
Undoubtly the highlight of BW with Dragon Dance, I find this easier to manage in most of my games. Slotting HP Fighting against Lairon/Pawniard to replace Sleep Talk is a big factor to consider, and it makes Dragonair even more vulnerable to being worn down than usual. Relying on Shed Skin often can be detrimental with how popular knock off users like Eelektrik are - it’s also manageable to deal with with the likes of hippopotas and even Slaking. Hippo can just phase it away without taking too much damage while slaking with band just nukes it in return. Graveler can also check it in a pinch and chip it away with Earthquake, and if enough chip is tacked on, finish it with Sucker Punch.

These are my thoughts for now. See you in Round 2 for more BW ZU experimenting!

 

[MANNAT]

Considering the state of the tier and how pressing its structural integrity is for the biggest tournament in the history of the tier, I actually believe that we should keep Dragonair. Threats like NP Simisear are an absolute migraine for bulkier teams to contend with. Without its defensive utility, those matchups will be skewed even more to the point that heavy offense centering around cheesy strategies like dual screens and weather, is going to flood the metagame. There's no telling the repercussions that would take place on the tier and it holds a lot of major offensive threats in place. Also not mentioned anywhere in the reasoning for the quickban is how offensive sets/spreads like DD 3 attacks just get overpressured by to the point where they take chip damage to set up, get phased out, and can't safely set up the next time it comes in. That's not to say that it wouldn't be deserving of a suspect test in the future, I just don't think it should be quick banned right now given the context of the tier. If it wasn't clear from this post already, I oppose banning Dragonair at this time.

 

[btboy]

BW ZU Council has voted to quickban Dragonair from BW ZU. The vote currently stands at 3-0, so a simple majority has already been achieved and the remaining council members’ votes will not affect the outcome. The reasoning sheet can be found here.

Tagging Kris and Marty to implement (alongside the Mr. Mime fix). Thank you.

 

[Procrastinasian]

DPP ZU Suspect Test

Hello, DPP ZU TL Procrastinasian here again, here to announce updated Viability Rankings and Sample Teams (with more to come, check this post for the resources).

Additionally, DPP Council has deemed Crawdaunt and Damp Rock as potentially concerning (Crawdaunt for its ability to Dragon Dance and outspeed + kill most Pokemon in the tier with its coverage, and Damp Rock for its ability to extend rain for Huntail, Lumineon(who outspeeds everything), Seaking, and Horsea as well as allow Electabuzz to abuse Thunder and HP Water easily).

The community will be allowed to participate in a suspect to decide if either is banworthy. Tournaments will be held in a similar format to previous DPP suspect tours, namely, on Friday-Sun at these respective times:

Friday, January 28th at 6 PM GMT - Won by SpacialRendevous
Saturday, January 29th at 12 AM GMT - Won by 5Dots
Saturday, January 29th at 4 PM GMT - Won by Aaronboyer
Saturday, January 29th at 8 PM GMT - Drud gets voting because council finals
Sunday, January 30th at 4 PM GMT - giving vote to Tuthur because finalist did not have a Smogon account
Sunday, January 30th at 8 PM GMT - Luna's Banned now gets a vote because SpacialRendevous won again

That's all folks! Good luck and I hope you all participate!​

 

[5Dots]

Going to be posting my thoughts on the Crawdaunt suspect:

​

In my opinion, Crawdaunt is quite tough to face. Finding a reliable switch-in after a Dragon Dance boost is a tall task, and even unboosted, it’s no picnic thanks to a frightful 120 Attack stat and good STAB moves. I find this to be comparable with Kingler: both are strong Water-types that can easily clean up games after a boost, but Kingler has more pros early- to mid-game thanks to its higher speed to outpace Banette, Whiscash, and Lunatone more reliably, allowing it to be a great Choice Scarf or Choice Band user. Kingler even has higher physical bulk to withstand physical attacks better, like Huntail’s Sucker Punch (though the difference isn’t noticeable in a lot of instances, nevertheless the bulk differences should be pointed out.) I feel that Crawdaunt would thus be better used as a Dragon Dance sweeper, where it can force out Camerupt and Probopass reliably. Crawdaunt also has to note that even at +1, it’s not that fast, with Choice Scarf Electabuzz, Slaking, Kingler and Adamant Persian outspeeding it. The Dark-Water crab is therefore more prediction reliant to clean up, which makes it more limited in stages other than the endgame. I think Kingler is more reliable on all fronts whether it holds a Choice Band, Choice Scarf, or Life Orb in its hand.

IMO, I think Crawdaunt, while powerful, should not be banned, since it is rather fragile, requires a good amount of team support to execute a sweep, and faces competition with Kingler as an offensive Water-type.

On the other hand, I would also like to talk about Rain.

Banning Gorebyss, in theory, would’ve appeared to make Rain more manageable. Which is true, considering it was the strongest abuser and had Psychic to wreck niche checks like Tentacool. However, Rain is still quite oppressive, as Pokemon like Huntail, Lumineon, and Seaking can still be extraneously difficult to take down without keeping Lapras completely healthy, having Scarf Electabuzz, or having to win 50-50s with other Rain abusers. Even with measly offenses, Rain patches up Seaking and Lumineon’s rather bland offensive movepool and makes them nearly impossible to stop. Most notably, both outpace Huntail, the most prominent Rain Abuser, and Lumineon can OHKO Electabuzz with Modest Specs. Nothing is able to outspeed even Modest Lumineon under the weather. Nobody is also running Choice Scarf Persian to spefically stop Seaking, and even Scarf Electabuzz to deter Huntail will just have Camerupt paired up to absorb the momentum. Sure, Lapras can stop Lumineon from sweeping, but coverage like HP Grass combined with Stealth Rock only makes it a temporary check in the long run. I feel that Rain, in my opinion, is more suspect worthy and deserves a test later on.

Those are my thoughts for DPP right now. Dot to you later!

Calcs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Lumineon Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Electabuzz in Rain: 289-342 (107.4 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lumineon Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Huntail in Rain: 160-189 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lumineon Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Golbat in Rain: 220-259 (62.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lumineon Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lapras: 124-146 (26.7 - 31.4%) -- 41.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[BeatsBlack]

Some BW teams used in tour + nom

Pelican


Bear


Dog + Birds


Anteater (Alternative version had BU Granbull over Vanilluxe)


Snake


Highly doubt these will be relevant by the time the tour is over given gradual shift in meta between rounds. However, there is one mon I think deserves a little more limelight.



Beartic is currently unranked, which this tour has already shown isn't entirely indicative of something's viability: Clefairy, Bibarel, and Pineco all share the same allocation but have shown themselves to fulfill roles in the metagame. Beartic is no different in the sense that most teams will struggle to switch into the combination of Icicle Crash, Superpower, and Night Slash which allows it to tear open holes in defensive structures. In addition to this, Aqua Jet is an option to pick off weakened foes or threaten outright, since mons like Simisear are straight OHKO'd after a Swords Dance. A stealth rock weakness in a tier with meager spinners certainly is noteworthy, but this also applies to mons that desire to check Beartic. I do want to make it clear that it's by no means public enemy #1, but after seeing its low usage in R1 (7 uses is pathetic; the other UR mons I mentioned all struck above 60) I started to get a little concerned that maybe people don't even know it's in the tier (which is what inclined me to write this nom in the first place since literally no one was talking about it). As an Ice type that can mangle Thick Fat users and Waters, I think it definitely has a notable benefit over the others. I didn't even mention that it's literally the only physical ice type, only viable ice type to get a +2 boosting move in SD, or the fact that it can be ran on niche rain teams as a Swift Swimmer. Most of my opinion is based from a standalone SD Life Orb set.

Just by tools alone, Beartic has the capability to literally button click vs certain teams. It's likely too late for other players to consider experimentation given how much money is on the line, but I do think Beartic is deserving of around a B ranking for the future VR update.

 

[Procrastinasian]

The Crawdaunt and Damp Rock suspect vote has concluded! There were zero (0) ban votes for Crawdaunt, five (5) do not ban votes, and four (4) abstentions, so Crawdaunt will remain in DPP ZU. There were six (6) ban votes for Damp Rock, zero (0) do not ban votes, and three (3) abstentions, so Damp Rock will be banned from DPP ZU. The reasonings and votes are listed here.

DPP Council will continue to look into Rain Dance (and potentially Slaking) in the near future. Happy teambuilding!

 

[OranBerryBlissey10]

BW noms since I'm out of the tour and can afford to expose my schemes:

S to High: Munchlax isn't the catch-all terrifying sweeper it used to be, most teams have enough power to break in naturally especially with the rise in knock off mons and teams have grown to favor members that it dislikes facing. Also has a massive 4mss.

High to Mid: about 5% of the attempted Whiscash sweeps I see actually end up working. It's practically dead weight if a team has one of the many fat physdef grasses and it's always one rogue giga drain/seed bomb/hp grass away from getting murked by the things it wants to set up on. I'd be down to keep it here for specs sets but I've seen practically none lately and those have other issues as well.

Mid to High: Cuno has had a really good showing in breadwinners so far, breaking many an unprepared team while also being very useful defensively (despite being in a tier where rocks are permanent if the player wants them to be). Shifting from mostly bulky subtox sets to offensive hurricane 3att/sub 2 att/specs sets, it's clearly a bigger threat than anticipated. The meta could very well end up adapting to it (and by that I mean spam frill more) but for now it's absolutely great.

Mid to Low: This is literally bad Sandshrew but faster, so it's better as a suicide lead and can break frill easier with sd sets. Mold breaker can be useful too ig but other than that Sandshrew is more useful in most games (the extra bulk definitely helps).

Mid to High: Mienfoo has an annoying tendency to stay around until the end of the game. Regenerator + u-turn + knock is pretty useful in any given game and fight resists aren't super common or sturdy either. Being able to knock someting like ivy/gloom or frill opens up a lot of possibilities in builder too.

Mid to High: I know what you're thinking, "budget Dragonair" right? While being slower, having no prio and possessing a useless ability doesn't help, it is unironically a better Dragonair in some games. Having access to both brick break and fire fang means it absolutely eviscerates any steel that tries to check it. Since it's also really physically fat a lot of prio falls short as well. Here's an example of a game where the Shelgon user can sweep endgame pretty effortlessly because the steel is a pawn (but the result would be the same if it was a lairon or a wormadam) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5zu-606307. Give this mon a try it's lowkey broken.

Mid to High: I hate facing Walrein. It never dies, its subs never break in one hit and it either gets every last bit of health back with subtect or is pretty unwallable with dual stab + tox. This mon has had a great showing in breadwinners as well and its rank should reflect that. (no but fr build with fat waters or Walrein will just actually 6-0 you)

Low to Mid: Glaceon has one thing going for it, it's strong. Like, really really strong (just calc specs ice beam vs lairon it's absolutely disgusting). Scarf sets are good cleaners, specs is a phenomonal breaker and tect lefties sets have popped up as well to combat the glaring rocks weakness. It also helps that it has coverage for the best water (and best mon in general) in the tier as well as being able to hit fires with water pulse and some steels with one of hp ground/fight/fire.

Low to Mid: Specs tinted lens goes brrrrr, it's also mandatory on sun and rain.

Low to High: Slaking is not as broken as in dpp but it's still a force to be reckoned with. Steels/rocks and/or fat evio mons help keep it in check but you're usally not getting out without heavy chip. There has also been an uptick in sub/tect mons or an inclusion of it in the movesets of mons that don't normally run it. Slaking can effortlessly 6-0 poorly prepared teams.

Here also some quick noms for mons that should never have been left out of the vr to begin with (Beats' post above is also completely right and you should read it)
to Mid: ho lead with spin rocks and spikes, has seen a lot of success (everyone has seen that one abr team at least a 100 times)
to Mid: fastest lead with both taunt and rocks. That's literally it.
to High: Sidegrade to Gloom with knock, answers a lot of stuff. (friendly reminder that if you use it w/o knock your set is unviable since you might as well be using Gloom so pls don't do that I will cry)
to Mid or High: I have trouble accurately judging clef but it's really flexible both in its moveset + ev-wise and is really annoying to break for some teams (like a lot of the fat spike balances that I love using lol) due to Magic Guard being super useful in this meta.
to Mid: Slow but really strong, and with near-perfect coverage. There's also a lot of potential in rain with it. (Beats explains it better)

Now for some of my own noms:

to Mid:
Budew @ Eviolite
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis

Budew is literally bad Gloom/Ivy but with spikes (which are broken bc frill exists). Thanks to eviolite it still has enough defensive utility despite its weaker stats. I could list all of the stuff it checks but once again that list will be very similar to that of Gloom/Ivy.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5zu-606306
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5zu-1488498588-vefta43k027wi12wpkth6gbs34zrixupw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5zu-1500209824-zvm2egcs629edhuemt8jr5hf1iw5clppw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5zu-1500199937-js271dtolf2trwr9hk8qrr8pqexdjefpw

to Low:
Meditite @ Eviolite
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt
- Fake Out
- Recover

Abuses teams that rely on poisons as their fighting answer. while also being significantly stronger than Mienfoo.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5zu-1508413195-lizsmq5lj1z333xt0ex5y6iwz24cb14pw (well i lost this one but it put in work)
(I swear I had more replays, ig I either forgot to save or they're stuck on an obscure alt. I tested with btboy and jett though, they can prove I'm not crazy.)

I also think the VR should be updated with subranks as the meta has definitely developed enough for it. Another more subjective suggestion for when this happens is that we either make an S+ rank solely for Frillish or that we drop everything else in S to A+. It is just so good at checking a large portion of the meta, making progress with taunt/status spreading while also singlehandedly being responsible for getting like 20 (hyperbole don't @ me) spikers banned because spinning vs it is quasi-impossible.

good teams

The most consistent and successful of my teams, all of these could be considered sample submissions as well.


Built around the concept of Mienfoo knocking the eviolites/lefties of the fat grass resists so leafeon can break. Seviper was added here over Muk or Arbok because of access to Flamethrower, which was needed since you still obviously need something to threaten the fat grasses out. A bit weak to psychics but there's room to outplay.


Meditite spikes: while a fighting type fits really well here to break clef, if the slot was a Mienfoo it would struggle significantly with Gloom/Ivy/Budew. Vullaby is a natural partner because of phazing and being a very consistent psychic answer (fat psychics are the only thing meditite hates facing).


btboy demolished me with specs Illumise in a test game so I decided to build with it. Staryu was added for hazard control and synergy, it really appreciates ev's in every stat but attack so the spread is really customizable. Mienfoo is on there for pivoting and Munchlax, knocking Frillish is also something this team really likes.


The standard abr ho structure but a variation with scarf mime, freeing up gastly to run tauntwisp. Also includes the broken Shelgon set.


Built around Magnemite + 3 threats that appreciate steels gone. Arbok for example can now beat grounds with seed bomb and scarf mime doesn't have to predict anymore. Last 2 are added for defensive integrity.


Easily one of my favorite teams, big fan how in most zu oldgens you can make a perfectly viable team with nothing but nfe's. After nicely asking my Pikachu for a crit vs a Leafeon in a test game and getting it I decided to make Pikachu spikes, extrapolating from my classic Budew/Sandshrew/Frillish core. The synergy is on point while both Pikachu and Lairon are massive threats.

mediocre teams

These teams aren't tested, up to date or consistent enough to belong in the previous group, I'll try to give a short reasoning as well.


Can easily overwhelm teams but the Lairon or Emolga counterplay isn't sufficient.


Too weak to Emolga and opposing hazards. Simisear also just wins if it's the last mon (which is unlikely to be at full due to the double phazing), fun team otherwise though.


Relies too much on Granbull for making progress. Also kinda Emolga-weak (I'm noticing a pattern lol).


Very similar to the other dragmag, I just like it less.


Offensively dangerous, but the counterplay to psychics and normals is just sad.




I have faith in these teams but they're untested.


Cool team that tries to abuse as much brokens as possible but the water counterplay is the x button (Staryu does not suffice, it will lose to Octillery and Wailord, while opposing staryu always has a turn advantage).


Relies too much on Slaking for breaking, random sub/tect mons often set you back too much, also feel like Wormadam needs to do too much here.


Way too slow, also clef is a huge pain. Will just 6-0 if no poisons or staryu are present however.


This team is very epic if you get a good mu, it is slightly less epic if you get a bad one. The synergy between the first 4 mons is very cool at least.

bad teams

I include these teams just for the sake of including everything, serious reasoning will not always be given since they're often unsalvageable.

(wip)

 

[quziel]

Out of the tour cause I made a major builder mistake (swapping static emolga into tbolt) and didn't play well in g2. Here are a few techs that I found to be effective.


Staryu @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Thunder
- Rapid Spin
- Recover / Ice Beam

Offensive Staryu is gives way more consistency as a spinner into both Lampent and Frillish. It also prevents Staryu from being dead weight into Walrein, which is a major weakness of Staryu teams. Thunder is chosen to give a roll to OHKO opposing Staryu after rocks, as well as 2HKO opposing Frillish. Modest Nature hits 269 speed, which is sufficient for a lot of the semi-fast mons in the tier, though you can run Timid to outrun Arbok at the cost of not having a roll to 2HKO Frillish. Ice Beam is not good, but prevents Meganium/Leafeon from coming in as freely.


Solrock @ Rock Gem
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun
- Stealth Rock

Max Speed and Rock gem reduce your weakness into mid speed breakers, eg Walrein. See above. Significantly weaker into Arbok, but facing that mon is largely gonna be down to out-tempoing it and hoping it doesn't get Shed Skin procs.


Lairon @ Eviolite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 240 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Head Smash
- Superpower
- Stealth Rock

Last slot on Lairon is generally fairly free, and Curse is a great use, letting you shut out many of the tier's physical breakers; it pushes you out of 2HKO range from Kingler. Spdef invest is also super value cause you tank most things with just max HP on the physical side, and Spdef invest pushes you out of 2HKO range from non-boosting item Simisear after rocks.


Emolga @ Metronome
Ability: Motor Drive
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- U-turn / Knock Off / Encore
- Roost

Very splashable set that maintains a lot of the breaking power of SubTox or Taunt sets, and the pivoting utility of the physical sets. Metronome is always a super cool item, and lets you punish your opponent for trying to sack stuff into you. HP Ice plus metronome 2HKOs the rising Graveler, and Tbolt 2HKOs zero spdef Lairon with rocks up. Also of note is that HP Ice lets you take on opposing Emolga and come out on top almost every time, which most other Emolga sets can struggle to do if they don't have Flying gem at the time and luck.


Simisear @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Overheat
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Will-O-Wisp

Honest Simisear sorta nutty; Wisp lets you deal with the tier's many Sucker Punchers (Arbok, Pawniard, etc) fairly easily, gives great supplemental damage, and the coverage here destroys literally everything except Staryu.


Meganium @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Leaf Storm
- Nature Power
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Fire]
- Synthesis

I think I'm fairly well known for this mon, but 3 attacks mixed Meganium is a very scary breaker that offers a ton of defensive utility at the same time, eg soft checking Persian. It dies to Slaking, but that mon is legitimately quite stupid and honest I'd not hate to see it be banned. HP Ice is imo the best overall coverage, hitting Emolga, Leafeon, the mirror, and tickling Gloom, however HP Fire can be used to hit Wormadam-Trash, although imo a Knock Off user is better to cripple that. Nature Power is chosen over Earthquake because of the rare Pawniard matchup where having an attack that dodges Sucker Punch can win games, as well as having significantly more PP. Naive nature preserves physical bulk into stuff like Persian/Lairon/etc. Of note; this mon is a breaker that excels into Bulky Offense, but really struggles into more balance oriented or semistall teams; pair with a mon that does well into those.

 

[SEA]

Dropping some fun stuff since I'm Bad and got knocked out:


Cranidos @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 16 Def / 240 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Pursuit

Originally, I came up with this as a way to obliterate the Pineco HO (Mold Breaker through Sturdy) that was floating around, but at the same time, everybody conveniently stopped running Rock resists. A real menace to deal with, hits like a freight train.


Lairon @ Life Orb
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 228 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Autotomize
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Protect

Similar idea, 3rd move can really be whatever you want. Protect to screw over all of the reliance on Scarf Slaking as a revenge option.


Solrock @ Normal Gem
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Explosion
- Overheat

Boom to OHKO Staryu which think they can spin on you, Overheat to get Wormadam to leave you alone.


Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 36 Def / 92 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Close Combat
- Facade
- Crunch

Bulk Up as Frillish comes in, Crunch it, absorb the Wisp, get another kill or two with Facade. Also, just an absolute demon to deal with.


Meganium @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 208 HP / 32 Atk / 8 SpA / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Giga Drain
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Synthesis

Made to stop Sub mons from setting up all over you (rip), EVs give you decent odds to have DTail break Mothim Substitute.


Leafeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Return
- Tickle

fuck shelgon lol
oh and defensive leafeon is a meme


Phione @ Choice Specs
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- U-turn

Phione's good. Water type with U-turn. Can fit Knock over Grass if you really hate Clefairy.


Grotle
Ability: Overgrow
- Stealth Rock

Never got the chance to use this thing, but it's a rocker that actually beats the spinners. Use it.


Leavanny @ Salac Berry
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- X-Scissor
- Leaf Blade
- Endure

Use this with an HP Fire Persian or other effective Wormadam bait. Endure blocks Fake Out and Slaking's entire existence.



Lopunny @ Flame Orb
Ability: Klutz
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 240 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Jump Kick
- Fire Punch
- Switcheroo

It's like Persian with Fire Punch and a real defensive profile. Sky Uppercut is viable over Jump Kick, use this with an Emolga and you won't regret it. Seriously great Pokemon. Silk Scarf Toxic is also good.

Throwing Protect on literally anything offensive is viable: I used Protect Lairon, Simisear, Arbok, Emolga, Walrein, Lopunny, Gastly, Glaceon, and probably a few others I'm forgetting.

Tour was fun, ty for hosting it.

 

[Toto]

Hello everyone, as ZU Classic is fast approaching (~2 months away), followed closely by ZUPL. We the ORAS ZU council are looking to gauge public opinion on the current metagame of ORAS ZU. This will be done in the form of a metagame survey, addressing the playerbase‘s thoughts on playing, building and overall competitiveness of ORAS ZU. In addition to questions on if any tiering action is required. I hope as many of you take part in the survey, and course if you wish to discuss about ORAS ZU in more detail posts are always encouraged. Thanks for reading.

Survey link - https://forms.gle/6K1vFtL4cTWNCL5s5