Resource ZU Old Gens Hub - BW Dragonair Banned @168

SBPC and I compiled a Role Compendium so people can start building and playing. You can suggest to Remove / Add Pokemon that Are / Aren't Viable in BW ZU. For example, if you test out Sudowoodo as a Stealth Rock user and thing its absolute ass just let me know and I'll remove it from the section. By doing this we should, as a community, be able to create an accurate role Compendium!

The Pokemon are in no particular order. This is what I used to sprite everything btw http://sprites.pokecheck.org/?gen=5&.
Aromatherapy / Heal Bell:
Chimecho
Clefairy
Lickitung
Flareon
Lapras
Wigglytuff
Chinchou
Togetic
Flaaffy
Granbull
Mightyena
Delcatty
Glaceon
Leafeon
Meganium


Healing Wish:
Clefairy
Chimecho
Lopunny


Wish:
Chimecho
Clefairy
Flareon
Wigglytuff
Lickitung
Female Girafarig
Togetic
Shelgon
Glaceon

Stealth Rocks:
Clefairy
Sandshrew
Onix
Marowak
Omanyte
Wigglytuff
Dunsparce
Corsola
Pineco
Shuckle
Sudowoodo
Marshtomp
Baltoy
Solrock
Lunatone
Kecleon
Anorith
Prinplup
Wormadam (Trash form)
Hippopotas
Boldore
Krokorok
Palpitoad
Pawniard


Spikes:
Omanyte
Pineco
Snorunt
Whirlipede
Trubbish


Toxic Spikes:
Omanyte
Beedrill
Whirlipede
Trubbish

Rapid Spin:
Drilbur
Sandshrew
Staryu
Pineco
Baltoy

Whirlwind:
Hippopotas
Pidgeot
Fearow
Noctowl
Dustox
Masquerain
Munchlax
Vullaby


Roar:
Onix
Lapras
Flareon
Granbull
Croconaw
Mightyena
Exploud
Loudred
Walrein
Shelgon
Luxray
Glaceon
Leafeon
Pignite
Herdier
Krokorok
Beartic


Perish Song:
Lapras
Marill


Haze:
Arbok
Poliwhirl
Seaking
Dragonair


Dragon Tail:
Arbok
Onix
Dragonair
Lickitung
Female Meganium
Seviper


Yawn:
Marshtomp
Swalot
Walrein
Hippopotas
Pignite

Physical Walls:
Sandshrew
Dunsparce
Corsola
Magcargo
Mightyena
Solrock
Hippopotas
Vullaby
Boldore
Shelgon


Special Walls:
Chimecho
Dustox
Kecleon
Flareon
Clefairy
Female Hypno
Noctowl
Foongus


Mixed Walls:
Lickitung
Wigglytuff
Shuckle
Corsola
Walrein

Physical Wallbreakers:
Pidgeot
Fearow
Kingler
Granbull
Regigigas
Pawniard
Leafeon
Carnivine
Raticate
Sneasel


Special Wallbreakers:
Simisear
Glaceon
Lapras
Raichu
Octillery
Girafarig
Chatot
Vanilluxe


Mixed Wallbreakers:
Flareon
Octillery
Seviper
Carnivine
Simisear
Heatmor


Stallbreakers:
Frillish
Emolga
Regigigas
Togetic
Beedrill
Lopunny
(Switcheroo)

U-turn:
Beedrill
Pidgeot
Fearow
Persian
Raticate
Dustox
Illumise
Masquerain
Chatot
Lumineon
Mothim
Mienfoo
Emolga


Volt-Switch:
Emolga
Eelektrik
Luxray
Pachirisu
Flaaffy
Raichu


Baton Pass:
Beedrill
Fearow
Flareon
Farfetch'd
Togetic
Girafarig
Illumise
Lunatone
Solrock
Masquerain
Shedinja
Lopunny
Leafeon
Glaceon
Emolga
Mienfoo

Rock Polish / Agility:
Emolga
Lunatone
Solrock
Fearow
Kingler
Seadra


Bulk Up / Curse / Coil:
Lapras
Arbok
Dunsparce
Granbull
Swalot
Munchlax
Mienfoo
Beartic
Eelektrik


Calm Mind:
Girafarig
Clefairy
Female Hypno
Ivysaur
Kirlia
Lunatone
Lampent


Dragon Dance:
Charmeleon
Lapras
Dragonair
Pupitar
Shelgon
Whiscash


Nasty Plot:
Raichu
Female Hypno
Togetic
Chatot
Simisear


Swords Dance:
Beedrill
Weepinbell
Raticate
Kingler
Pawniard
Dewott
Charmeleon
Ivysaur
Grovyle
Sneasel


Quiver Dance:
Butterfree
Dustox
Masquerain
Mothim

Raichu
Fearow
Raticate
Abra
Magmar
Lopunny
Leafeon
Grovyle
Simisear
Emolga

Choice Band:
Pidgeot
Fearow
Granbull
Kingler
Exploud
Sneasel
Sneasel


Choice Specs:
Raichu
Octillery
Vanilluxe
Simisear
Chatot
Glaceon


Choice Scarf:
Simisear
Krokorok
Vanilluxe
Mienfoo
Exploud
Girafarig
Pidgeot
Fearow
Charmeleon
Magmar
Kingler
Gastly
Lopunny
(Switcheroo)

Rain Setters:
Lapras
Omanyte
Lickitung
Raichu
Female Hypno
Togetic
Granbull
Lunatone
Lombre
Illumise
Chimecho
Kecleon
Lopunny
Pachirisu
Pelipper
Pidgeot


Rain Abusers:
Poliwhirl
Omanyte
Lombre
Beartic


Sun Setters:
Pidgeot
Onix
Female Hypno
Lickitung
Magmar
Meganium
Togetic
Bellossom
Granbull
Chimecho
Kecleon
Solrock
Illumise
Hippopotas
Lampent


Sun Abusers:
Ivysaur
Weepinbell
Charmeleon
Magmar
Flareon
Bellossom
Sunflora
Leafeon
Simisear
Lampent
 
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Sorry for the double post

I want to start off by saying this Viability Ranking is purely speculatory. This post is nothing but a big VR nomination and should be taken as such. Again I want to say thanks for SBPC for aiding me in creating this tier list. I'd also like to thank Tack :] for also contributing.

Please let me know if I'm missing anything or it's out of order. It took forever to use basic English and alphabetize these from a spreadsheet. I formatted this off of our Current USUM VR. If anyone has any questions why something is placed where it is please ask me or SBPC for more details.
S Rank
Regigigas
Regigigas
Simisear
Simisear

A Rank

A+

Arbok
Emolga
Leafeon
Raticate
Togetic

A
Dragonair
Fearow
Kecleon
Kingler
Lopunny
Marowak

A-
Boldore
Corsola
Octillery
Raichu
Staryu

B Rank

B+

Abra
Beedrill
Clefairy
Exploud
Gastly
Gastly
Mothim
Pidgeot
Prinplup
Vanilluxe

B
Chatot
Chimecho
Drilbur
Foongus
Frillish
Illumise
Lampent
Lapras
Lickitung
Meinfoo
Shelgon
Whiscash
Wormadam-Trash

B-
Flareon
Glaceon
Granbull
Lunatone
Luxray
Mightyena
Munchlax
Onix
Pawniard
Phione
Seviper

C Rank

C+

Beartic
Bellossom
Carnivine
Dustox
Girafarig
Heatmor
Hypno
Ivysuar
Magmar
Meganium
Palpitoad
Pignite
Purugly
Seadra
Slaking
Trubbish
Trubbish
Wigglytuff

C
Charmeleon
Delcatty
Dewott
Dunsparce
Grovyle
Magcargo
Marshtomp
Omanyte
Pineco
Seaking
Sudowoodo
Swalot

C-
Eelektrik
Flaffy
Grotle
Grotle
Herdier
Lombre
Lumineon
Masquerain
Noctowl
Pachirisu
Poliwhirl
Pupitar
Shedninja
Shuckle
Walrein

D
Butterfree
Croconaw
Farfetch'd
Farfetch'd
Gloom
Gloom
Kirlia
Loudred
Marill
Persian
Stantler
Stantler
Snorunt
Snorunt
Sunflora
 
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Time for some VR Nominations before ADV ZU Cup.

178315
Castform B -> A

So after a few months of this Castform feeling out it's place in the tier, I think it's shown that it's a threat in Sun, and outside of weather completely. Base 70s makes it the tier's 2nd best Mixed Attacker. Although that's not as coveted, set versatility is still castform's greatest strength, having the ability to be a physical wallbreaker, sun and rain setter, even an All-Out Attaking set. And compared to the rest of B Tier, it's much more splash-able, much more versatile, and has a serious contention to be the best Normal Type in the tier.

178349
Makuhita UR -> D / C
Makuhita is, undoutably, not as good as the other two fighting types thare are used in the tier. But with Thick Fat, the highest base HP Stat of the 3, and some smart EVs spreads, Makhuita can be a nice piece to any team, it's a great Growlithe switchin, and punishes any Delibird for not taking Ace, or locking into to something that isn't Ace.
Here are some sets that Makuhita can run, that give it some value in the tier. To leave Makuhita without a mention is a clear disrespect to the fat bag.

178351
Spinda D -> UR
This mon went from some niche to no niche, going from a nice Physical Normal type, to a thing that can do trick, making it have two cool things about it, Trick, and the fact that the spots on it's sprite can have 5 different layouts, and considering Showdown doesn't give you that option, it really only has 1 thing cool about it, that isn't too cool when you think about the amount of mons that want to be tricked a Band or something of the sort.


that's all folks
 
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SBPC

stranded on an island
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Me and Broken Phobias decided to chart up some sample teams, 2 from him and 2 from myself. Team descriptions are written by the team's respective builder.


Simisear + Exploud Offense - By SBPC

This team is an offensive team packed chock full of wallbreakers, using the amazing Simisear's coverage to blast most threats, with Exploud hitting specially defensive walls and swallowing bulkier teams without a check like cookie dough. Vanilluxe is this team's speed control, giving it the ability to hit the variety of birds within the tier, like Banded Fearow and Pidgeot, and Emolga, to name a few. Kingler can set up on a great portion of the tier, and makes a disgusting cleaner. Sandshrew is the team's physical wall and spinner, while Kecleon is the specially defensive tank for setting rocks.




Regenerator Stall - By SBPC

The bulky tandem of Corsola and Foongus is a highly lethal defensive force, capable of combining their defensive capabilities to block out and push away offense like it was paper. Lickilicki is an incredible cleric, with an amazing ability in oblivious, preventing the disgusting taunt from stopping it in its tracks. Lopunny is the team's mandatory Regigigas check, being able to even further annoy it with Switcheroo, and Healing Wish allows her to fully restore a teammate when she's ready to retire. Flareon is a second wish passer, and a great answer to Wormadam Trash, and DryPass makes for some nifty shenanigans. Sandshrew yet again makes center stage as the spinner, with Super Fang mincing through bulkier health bars while Rest lets it stay healthy throughout the battle.




FWG Balance - By Broken Phobias

This balance is fairy straight forward. I built it around the generations old Bird Spam but then I kind of morphed into a FWG team with Leaf Flare and Marsh. Emolga and Fearow are our birds of prey coming in and U-turning out picking up some solid chip on the opponents pokemon. Fearow comes Equipped with a Choice Scarf for some of those faster threats such as Sneasel, Emolga, Simisear. Both are capable of a late game sweep thanks to Leafeon's Substitute Swords Dance Passing. Flareon is their for Cleric Support and it also takes care of some of that pesky Sanshrew and other Physical attackers with Lava Plume burn. Marshstomp is our Dedicated Stealth Rock user. I was sceptical of Marshstomp's Viability but honestly its super fat so it works fairly well. A Kingler at +2 Attack can't OHKO Marshstomp with Crabhammer due it doing around only 75%. Baltoy is our dedicated spinner but unlike most Baltoys who get walled by Emolga this Baltoy runs Psychic over it's Stealth Rock slot to do a decent amount of chip.




Trash Spike Stack - By Broken Phobias

The team is really bare bones. You got Sneasel who is by far the best pursuit trapper in BW ZU. Its an absolute beast with its Speed Tier. Scarf Meinfoo is our speed control as well as our offensive pivot allowing the team to gain momentum. Next we need a Ghost-type to support Sneasel since it really doesn't want to get hit with fighting moves. Plus since its a hazard stack team the team needs a spin blocker so Frillish does the trick here since its can cripple with WoW and it has reliable recovery through recover. Next we got some HOT garbage! Trubbish is unbelievably fat and it has access to both T-spikes and Spikes. This set allows it to be a mixed wall which comes in handy if Frillish or Baltoy are down. Next we need a dedicated Simisear answer so Lamp is clearly the best option here. Sub CM is a great set that can take advantage of fatter teams. In addition, it provides the team with another spin blocker which is great. it also soaks up Fire-type moves for Sneasel. Lastly we need a Spinner so Baltoy is the best option thanks to its Ground-type Immunity. Furthermore, it can provide the team with stealth rocks so Sneasel and Mienfoo have an easier time going to town.


 
As you've probably already seen, the ZU Classic is now being hosted by myself and Aaronboyer. The dates that the opens signup are as follows:
  • The ADV Cup - Hosted by Aaronboyer - June 3rd
  • The DPP Cup - Hosted by DurzaOffTopic - June 10th
  • The BW Cup - Hosted by Xayah - June 17th
  • The ORAS Cup - Hosted by 5gen - June 24th
The ADV ZU Cup is already open for signups!

Additionally I've added the following teams to the BW Samples in preparation of the BW Cup.
Simiploud Offense by SBPC
Specs Octillery Offense by SBPC
Exploud + Gastly Offense by SBPC
Rain Offense by Broken Phobias
Sun Offense by pinktidal
Regigigas Balance by SBPC
Balance by Tack :]
Stall by Broken Phobias
 
I would like to make this announcement here:

The only form of Baton Pass allowed in ADV ZU is Dry Pass.

This means that no stats or conditions can be passed using Baton Pass. This includes the use of stat boosting moves, trapping moves (such as Mean Look or Spider Web), Substitute, or stat boosting berries (such as Salac Berry or Liechi Berry).

Many people have been asking me about this and it was unclear from my perspective as well, so here is the definitive decision.

a few niche clarifications:
- an opponent raising your stats (such as through the use of swagger) will not restrict you from passing. This should be common sense as you cannot control your opponent and Baton Pass clauses have always been teambuilder restrictions. Think about how modern Evasion clause doesn't punish you for an opponent using Defog on your Contrary Serperior.

If you are put in a position where you are forced to use Baton Pass with your own boosted stats, then you are in the wrong. Normally, teambuilder would prevent you from having something that could boost your stats with Baton Pass, but since we don't have our own format we cannot enforce this. Therefore, you put yourself at risk by creating a situation in the teambuilder where this could happen.
 
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I'd like to announce the formation of the following Old Gens Councils, which will be in charge of any necessary tiering changes, viability ranking changes, and other things regarding their respective tiers. While I will be overseeing old gens as a whole, we have placed Aaronboyer and 5gen in leading positions in ADV and ORAS ZU, respectively, as they are the go-to people in their tiers and are extremely knowledgeable. Each generation council will have a leader, in charge of initiating discussions and possible slates, and a council with them as well.

Old Gens ZU Project Leader: DurzaOffTopic

ADV ZU
Leader:
Aaronboyer
DurzaOffTopic, Funbot28

DPP ZU
Leader:
DurzaOffTopic
Ezaphs, BloodAce0107, Tack :]

BW ZU
Leader:
DurzaOffTopic
Broken Phobias, Tack :], SBPC

ORAS ZU
Leader:
5gen
DurzaOffTopic, Aaronboyer

With excellent contributions to any of these metagames, anybody could be added to these councils, as you can see they are somewhat small at the moment. Additionally, For suspect tests, we will be adding the possibility to be added to a rotational council. Rotating council members will have a chance to vote alongside permanent council members on a given suspect test. Rotating council members will be picked by the leaders based on forum discussion and discord activity pertaining to the suspect.
 

85percent

formerly tingling
I don´t know how you go about sample teams for old generations. But since I´m out of the ADV cup already and have this team, which I think is pretty optimal, I just wanted to post it. If this turns out to be an issue, I don´t mind removing the post.


The general idea is para spam with Cubone to abuse the para. Voltorb is a nice anti lead, since it outspeeds Snorunt even after the berry boost and can taunt passive opposing leads. Nosepass + Gloom form the defensive core and can handle the majority of the offensive meta. Gloom specifically can handle Chinchou, which otherwise gives the team trouble. Growlithe + Delibird are pretty potent offensive threats who can handle the ever-present Gloom. They also appreciate Cubone taking care of opposing Nosepass. Substitute on Cubone is there to take advantage of forced switches and successfully using it often results in two kills.
 
https://pokepast.es/3339061bfa06a040

Want to share this team that I used whit more or less success in the last months.
It is a really standard team, the main defensive core of the team is Tangela + Lairon + Quagsire. For the last one I preferred to use the Curse set which helps me to pass more easily mon as Lairon, Digglet, moreover the set is extremely effective in the current metagame and can OHKO/2OHKO many mons.
Tangela easily tank physical attack which are not super effective from many mons. (Lairon, Kingler, Digglet, Mightyena) etc.
Lairon is my rock setter and do not have much threats in the meta, it also helps Tangela to deal whit physical threats. You just need to be careful whit Digglet but if it doesn't run Choice Band you can tank one Earthquake and if you managed to set rocks you can OHKO the focus sash set whit eq.
For the lead, nothing new, Persian is probably the best lead of this meta.
Gastly helps to kill mon like Kingler whit Energy Ball*, it can also trick Dusclops which can be pretty useful.
For the last pokémon I wanted to have a cleaner, and so I chose Shelgon ; this mon is really good (probably underrated) and even whitout Dragon Dance it can deal massive damage.

Calc :
*252 SpA Gastly Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingler: 252-298 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(will add more later)

I unfortunately do not have much replays since I faced like 15 times same players.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4nu-918284832
 

SBPC

stranded on an island
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
It took us awhile to get it finished but we've finally got a BW ZU VR ready to put out.
Here's the official.

S Rank:


Regigigas

Simisear


A Ranks:


A+:

Dragonair

Emolga

Kingler

Marowak

Raticate


A:

Boldore

Fearow

Staryu

Sneasel

Vanilluxe

Vullaby

Wormadam-Trash


A- :

Beedrill

Chimecho

Corsola

Exploud

Illumise

Lampent

Leafeon

Octillery

Raichu


B Ranks:


B+:

Frillish

Gastly

Lapras

Lickitung

Phione

Sandshrew

Slaking

Togetic


B:

Arbok

Clefairy

Foongus

Kecleon

Lopunny

Mothim

Onix

Prinplup

Shelgon

Trubbish

Whiscash


B-:

Drilbur

Flareon

Glaceon

Granbull

Lunatone

Luxray

Mienfoo

Mightyena

Munchlax

Solrock

Swalot

Pawniard

Whirlipede


C Ranks:


C+:

Beartic

Bellossom

Clamperl

Magmar

Marshtomp

Pignite

Pineco

Purugly

Seadra


C:

Dustox

Sudowoodo

Meganium

Palpitoad

Hypno

Heatmor

Seaking

Omanyte


C-:

Butterfree

Croconaw

Dewott

Dunsparce

Girafarig

Grovyle

Noctowl

Pupitar

Shedinja

Im having bp do anything formatting related from now on, working on mobile is hell
 
The BW ZU Council has unanimously decided to quickban Regigigas.

Regigigas has been an incredibly capable threat from the very first days of the meta, due to its great bulk along with its admittedly limited movepool allowing it to easily survive through slow start. Our defensive walls are wholly incapable of breaking 101 hp subs, due to low attacking power and inability to remove them with Seismic Toss, whilst our offensive threats are crippled by thunder wave or simply coin flipped away with confuse ray when Regigigas clicks substitute on the switch-in, or just take a substantial chipping from the attacking move before slow start is gone, since most of Regigigas's offensive checks are rather frail and don't hold these attacks lightly, even more so if it's in the form of super effective coverage. This usually causes teams to mandate entire team slots, sometimes multiple, specifically to handle Regigigas. And these mandated teamslots cannot even reliably answer Regigigas in most cases, due to the nature of confuse ray being wholly coin flips. Overall, Regigigas is an unmanageable monster of a pokemon that forces the entire tier to fold around it, generally even making the only way to beat it to hax it to death yourself.
 

5gen

jumper
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Hey all, with the ORAS ZU Cup coming around I figured I should submit some sample teams.


Simipour @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Superpower
- Taunt

Electabuzz @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Toxic

Meganium @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Synthesis
- Petal Blizzard

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Rest
- Toxic
- Psywave

Vibrava @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Earthquake
- U-turn

Fearow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Drill Peck
- Drill Run
- U-turn
Here is a fairly straigtforward team centered around SD Meganium with offensive support from Taunt+Knock Off Simipour and Electabuzz. Simipour and Electabuzz take care of Fire- and Flying-types and also help whittle down Pokemon such as Bronzor, Gourgeist-L, and Lairon for Meganium. Next, mixed defensive Bronzor and Vibrava make the entry hazards core and serve as the backbone for the team. Lastly, Choice Scarf Fearow rounds out the team with some revenge killing.

The team heavily relies on positioning in order to beat some bulkier Pokemon such as Bronzor, Dusclops, and Wigglytuff. Toxic spam and pivoting is vital as a result.


Simipour @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot

Servine @ Eviolite
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Synthesis
- Taunt

Whirlipede @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Protect
- Infestation

Krokorok @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

Electabuzz @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Focus Blast

Magmar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Toxic
Entry hazard stack is one of the most simple forms of offense and is fairly consistent in ORAS ZU. Whirlipede and Krokorok provide the entry hazards and do a great job wearing down foes through Knock Off, Taunt and Infestation+Toxic. Simipour gives the team necessary breaking power and can hit Wigglytuff with Gunk Shot. Electabuzz is fantastic offensive support and has Focus Blast to take care of Lairon and Klang. Servine is the team's wincon and helps prevent Defog thanks to Taunt. Lastly, Scarf Magmar is slightly unorthodox and is used here because the team needs the speed and something to pressure Ice-types such as Vanilluxe. Team needs to be played aggressively and thoughtfully as wincons vary each game.


Murkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Brave Bird
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Thunder Wave

Sawsbuck @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Horn Leech
- Jump Kick
- Megahorn

Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Wild Charge
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Whirlipede @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Infestation
- Protect

Krokorok @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

Simipour @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
Murkrow is A+ and revisiting ORAS ZU, I wanted to test Murkrow once again considering the tier is somewhat different without Trapinch and Baton Pass. Murkrow really enjoyed the effect Trapinch and Baton Pass had on the metagame as Electabuzz and Steel-types had to play more cautiously and with BP, Murkrow had an easy time coming in. Nowadays Murkrow does not have that, so I opted to run it with entry hazard stack support. Murkrow is pretty straightforward as an offensive Pokemon because it looks to click Brave Bird all the time, Sucker Punches faster threats, and has HP Fighting to catch Lairon. Twave is mostly filler thanks to Prankster. Krokorok and Whirlipede are the entry hazard stack core. Pikachu and NP Simipour greatly appreciate the entry hazard chip and are the team's main breakers. Pikachu excels on entry hazard stack HO because assuming it comes in safely, little can withstand its coverage coupled with Extreme Speed. On the other hand, offensive Pokemon are prone to being worn down which makes it that much easier for NP Simipour to sweep. Lastly, Scarf Sawsbuck for the speed control.


Krokorok @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Pursuit

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Seismic Toss
- Will-O-Wisp

Wigglytuff @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Stealth Rock
- Dazzling Gleam

Duosion @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Signal Beam

Wartortle @ Eviolite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Foresight
- Scald
- Toxic

Jumpluff
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Acrobatics
- Seed Bomb
CB Krok is an absolute menace of a breaker because almost nothing counters it. Ground/Dark STAB is incredible and the offensive support Krok provides is difficult to match. Decided to go a bulkier route and run a defensive backbone of Dusclops/Wiggly/Duosion/Wartortle. They do pretty much everything defensively for the team defensively and Duosion acts as a wincon. Lastly, Jumpluff is added for the speed and for its ability to check opposing Krokorok and is a secondary wincon with SD.


Simipour @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Knock Off
- Superpower

Pignite @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Toxic

Quilladin @ Eviolite
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Synthesis
- Roar
- Wood Hammer

Lairon @ Eviolite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Head Smash
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake

Meowstic-F @ Life Orb
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Calm Mind

Fearow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Drill Peck
- Drill Run
- U-turn
Perhaps my favourite team of the bunch because of how seamless the offensive Pokemon work together. Mixed Simipour and 3 attacks Toxic Pignite is fairly difficult to cover defensively and coupled with entry hazard stack from Quilladin and Lairon, the offensive core does great in this metagame. Defensive Quilladin gives the team valuable defensive utility checking Pokemon such as Lairon, Klang, Krok, and Gigalith. On the other hand, Lairon provides SR and offensive support and also checks Pokemon such as Vanilluxe, Jumpluff, and Raticate. Meowstic-F provides a Fighting- and Poison-type check as well as being a wincon and Defog deterrent. Lastly, Choice Scarf Fearow rounds out the team.

Electabuzz is a threat so make sure to pressure it accordingly and to preserve Quilladin. CM Meowstic-F is also key against stall and bulkier builds.
That's all for now, might change it up and dump some bulkier teams another time.
 

Oglemi

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Some tier observations after having watched pretty much every ADV ZU replay posted in the tourney thread so far out of curiosity:

- I have yet to see Zigzagoon work successfully. In fact, I think it was able to get Belly Drum up maybe twice out of every match I watched and then was proceeded to be KOed before even getting ESpeed off. Pretty sure this has a 0% winrate currently, or very low. Would not recommend.
- Delibird is obviously king of this tier, but Castform I think has made a very strong case for second in command. A very powerful D-Edge combined with great coverage, good Speed, and the ability to counter sunny Gloom and rain Seaking is just gravy on a Pokemon with standout stats as it is.
- Rhyhorn I feel is still a bit underrated, or at least should be getting similar usage to Nosepass. You lose out on the reliable initial Delibird switch as Ice Beam is far more threatening to it than Nosepass, but both are shredded by FPunch and HP Ground anyway and Rhyhorn has way more offensive potential, esp that sick SubSD set floating around. Obvi Twave is cool from Nosepass and being a generally very bulky mon is nice, so it deserves usage, but I feel some teams could be fine tuned with the switch to Rhyhorn
- Seaking is also a bit underrated currently, esp that awesome bulky set I saw once or twice, possibly due to the deserved popularity of Gloom. Rain Hydro Pump is a tough thing to switch into if you're down your Gloom or Castform though, and the rain teams have definitely proven themselves as a threat, esp with Horsea.
- Natu is a fkn threat with nothing resisting Psychic (except Aron, Nuzleaf, Magnemite, and other Natu) and it being as fast as it is.

- Some mons that I think could be explored more include Kabuto and Skiploom. Kabuto sounds fkn awesome on paper. It's as good an initial switch into Delibird as anything, has a great offensive typing, Swift Swim is gr8, and its Attack makes it a threat to watch for. It even gets Rapid Spin as icing on the cake, which while Spikes aren't super prevalent, they are definitely a thing to watch for, and I think Kabuto could see some use on bulkier builds as a means of hazard control. Skiploom I don't think has been used thus far, but it's one of the faster mons in the tier (sitting just below Taillow and Staryu (and Elekid/Voltorb) but above pretty much everything else), has Encore, Sleep Powder, and in general could prove to be tough mon to crack if played right. Tough to justify its use currently over Gloom or Bayleef, but I think if someone could build around it successfully you'd have a threat on your hands.
 
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S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

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Some tier observations after having watched pretty much every ADV ZU replay posted in the tourney thread so far out of curiosity:

- I have yet to see Zigzagoon work successfully. In fact, I think it was able to get Belly Drum up maybe twice out of every match I watched and then was proceeded to be KOed before even getting ESpeed off. Pretty sure this has a 0% winrate currently, or very low. Would not recommend.
- Delibird is obviously king of this tier, but Castform I think has made a very strong case for second in command. A very powerful D-Edge combined with great coverage, good Speed, and the ability to counter sunny Gloom and rain Seaking is just gravy on a Pokemon with standout stats as it is.
- Rhyhorn I feel is still a bit underrated, or at least should be getting similar usage to Nosepass. You lose out on the reliable initial Delibird switch as Ice Beam is far more threatening to it than Nosepass, but both are shredded by FPunch and HP Ground anyway and Rhyhorn has way more offensive potential, esp that sick SubSD set floating around. Obvi Twave is cool from Nosepass and being a generally very bulky mon is nice, so it deserves usage, but I feel some teams could be fine tuned with the switch to Rhyhorn
- Seaking is also a bit underrated currently, esp that awesome bulky set I saw once or twice, possibly due to the deserved popularity of Gloom. Rain Hydro Pump is a tough thing to switch into if you're down your Gloom or Castform though, and the rain teams have definitely proven themselves as a threat, esp with Horsea.
- Natu is a fkn threat with nothing resisting Psychic (except Aron, Nuzleaf, Magnemite, and other Natu) and it being as fast as it is.

- Some mons that I think could be explored more include Kabuto and Skiploom. Kabuto sounds fkn awesome on paper. It's as good an initial switch into Delibird as anything, has a great offensive typing, Swift Swim is gr8, and its Attack makes it a threat to watch for. It even gets Rapid Spin as icing on the cake, which while Spikes aren't super prevalent, they are definitely a thing to watch for, and I think Kabuto could see some use on bulkier builds as a means of hazard control. Skiploom I don't think has been used thus far, but it's one of the faster mons in the tier (sitting just below Taillow and Staryu (and Elekid/Voltorb) but above pretty much everything else), has Encore, Sleep Powder, and in general could prove to be tough mon to crack if played right. Tough to justify its use currently over Gloom or Bayleef, but I think if someone could build around it successfully you'd have a threat on your hands.
184494


You must not have read my R1 post or saw the replays, but here it is with two wins from Zig:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-adv-zu-cup-round-4-post-202.3650936/page-5#post-8155482

Zig has 0 bulk, but has enough support for it to succeed with the BD and then sweep: parafusion with sub, sleep, and even screens with a slow baton pass can help it easily set up. Once it gets a BD off, only a Fake Attack from Medicham or a CB Quick Attack from Tailow threaten it (but can’t even KO it most times!!!), as a +6 Espeed and HP ground will 1HKO almost all of the meta. It can be incredibly good, and only a little luck is needed for it to annihilate unprepared teams.
In my replays, parafusion for the first and sleep for the second was enough to give me the sub and BD to sweep my opponent. However, he lacked the priority users to deal with Zig and he stayed in with poorly conditioned mons. Still, had he prepared, even the best priority users of the meta fail to KO Zig after a BD:
252+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon: 96-113 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Taillow Quick Attack vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon: 125-148 (44.8 - 53%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Delibird Quick Attack vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon: 114-135 (40.8 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Granted, if Zig subs then goes for BD and the opp breaks the sub on that turn, then Zig can be revenged. Yet if Zig does pull off the BD healthy, then not a single viable priority user in the meta can revenge kill it, meanwhile it will sweep every viable mon besides Onix and maybe some really defensive mons like full phys def Bayleaf or Gloom (which cannot even KO Zig after a BD and leftovers outside of a high roll from Gloom’s Sludge Bomb, if it has it). I’d say Zig could be worth suspecting for a ban if it continues to get cheap wins like this. It’s uncompetitive to have one turn of bad luck and have a mon set up and sweep your entire team. It could also be balanced and okay though if players expect it more and spec into bulkier phys def mons and keep their priority users healthy. Nevertheless, Zig for B/A rank, C is too low for how threatening this thing is.
 
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Aaronboyer

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ADV Zigzagoon and Gloom Suspect
The ADV Council has officially decided to look at both Zigzagoon and Gloom and their places in the ADV ZU metagame. Zigzagoon took off during the early rounds of ADV ZU Cup due to its access to Belly Drum and Extreme Speed. Proper team support from Pokemon such as Snorunt and Ledian could provide chip damage from Spikes and screens to nearly guarantee Zigzagoon's Belly Drum setup. Unlike fellow Belly Drum user Poliwag, Zigzagoon's main attacking move happens to be STAB and priority, severely limiting counterplay to Zigzagoon by outprioritizing, and the few Pokemon that resist Extreme Speed such as Nosepass and Rhyhorn cannot stomach a +6 Hidden Power Fighting after one layer of Spikes. While answers such as Fake Out Meditite, Choice Band Delibird, and Choice Band Taillow do exist, we'll answer the question if Zigzagoon's raw power is too much for the ADV ZU metagame to handle.

Subsequently, Gloom both offensively and defensively has been an absolute powerhouse. Offensive Gloom sets abusing Chlorophyll outspeed the entire unboosted metagame and can hit entire tier neutrally between Solar Beam, Hidden Power Fire, and Sludge Bomb. Gloom also has an easy time bypassing its checks with Sleep Powder, and can even use free sleep turns to set Sunny Day again, although it cannot run Sleep Powder, Sunny Day, and all three coverage moves at the same time. Swords Dance sets became to spring up during ADV Cup and made use of the fantastic coverage between Sludge Bomb and Hidden Power Ground while again using Sleep Powder to nullify its checks and gain free turns to set up or just attack. Defensive sets have become as hard to break as ever, as even super effective hits such as Never Melt Ice Delibird's Ice Beam and Natu's Psychic fails to OHKO. Gloom can also use Leech Seed to restore its healthy gradually, making it that much harder to check. Most troubling is the fact that it can be hard to distinguish what Gloom set it is until its potentially too late. Only a handleful of Pokemon can check all Gloom sets, and again its important to note that Sleep Powder can very easily bypass these checks. Is Gloom's omnipresence too overwhelming for ADV ZU?

From now until Sunday we'll determine if Zigzagoon and Gloom still has a place in the metagame. The ADV ZU Council is looking for rotating ZU Old Gens Council members and will look at the following factors to determine voting eligibility.

1. Reach the Finals of the ADV ZU Cup. (Tagging Eeveeto Mana and Rav3ndan)
2. Make a quality post about your thoughts on Zigzagoon and Gloom. If outstanding input/discussion is seen, a user with particularly high quality post(s) may be added to a rotating council for this vote.
 
Ok, as I was tagged, I will be the first to reveal my thoughts.

Zigzagoon

The raw power is definetely too much for the Tier as it OHKOs almost everything if it manages to pull that BD off. Thing is, he will almost never achieve it in practice and even then, there are ways to stop the sweep. I will speak about the most optimal set first, since I think the set showed on the Viability Ranking has some flaws (Shadow Ball is useless and the only thing Iron Tail achieves is the guaranted OHKO to Nosepass and Lileep, the first of which is already a low roll and has to be used for a lot of threats, so damaging it before Zig comes is easy):

Zigzagoon @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pickup
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Return
- Hidden Power Ground


Zigzagoon is certainly diferent from any other offensive threat in this Tier since once its on the field, you can almost never counter it defensively, you need to attack. But that doesn,t make it broken, since very rarely he will manage to boost himself, as any expert player will attack it as soon as he is in. Zig has horrible bulk and despite often coming with Screens, many threats will still damage him for over 50%. Calcs of S and A Ranks:

Delibird: 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Delibird Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon through Reflect: 130-153 (59.9 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO < Can do even more with Double Edge. Sub-Punch also beats Zig providing it hits (80% is a good chance). Special sets also don,t let set-up:
252 SpA Never-Melt Ice Delibird Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zigzagoon through Light Screen: 109-129 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gloom:
252+ SpA Gloom Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zigzagoon through Light Screen: 163-192 (75.1 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO < The Defensive one is indeed a prey of Zig, though.

Cubone:

252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon through Reflect: 199-235 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Delcatty: 0 Atk Delcatty Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon through Reflect: 66-78 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- 41.2% chance to 3HKO < Actual prey of Zig.

Dustox:
Calcs are not needed, as this has Whirlwind and therefore is only a Zig prey if Zig is the last Mon AND has Refllect ( Sludge Bomb does over 50% otherwise).

Elekid: 252 SpA Elekid Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zigzagoon through Light Screen: 100-118 (46 - 54.3%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO< Can use Magnet to guarantee the 50%.

Masquerain:
252+ SpA Masquerain Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zigzagoon through Light Screen: 104-123 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO < Yes, Hydro has not perfect Accuracy, but if Masquerain has Sub, he doesn,t even need to use Hydro, since he can Stall the Light Screen turns:
252+ SpA Masquerain Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zigzagoon: 164-194 (75.5 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Meditite: Do I need calcs for this? Also, this guy has Brick Break, a move that destroys Reflect and Light Screen. Most of the time, he will also live Hidden Power Flying from Ledian, the most common Screener, so, if desperate, he can also switch into that.

Nosepass: 252+ Atk Nosepass Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon through Reflect: 72-85 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO < The Restalk Nosepass is a set-up fodder. But not the Explosion one, which OHKOs Zig through Reflect.

Rhyhorn:
252 Atk Rhyhorn Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon through Reflect: 123-145 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Staryu: 252 SpA Staryu Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zigzagoon through Light Screen: 104-123 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO< Mystic Water guarantees the 50%. However, defensive Staryu ( the better one in my opinion) is a set-up fodder if Zig has Light Screen.

Taillow:
252 Atk Choice Band Taillow Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon through Reflect: 171-202 (78.8 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Hidden Power Flying also has 53% to avoid the set-up.

So, out of 12 Mons of S and A rank we have the following scenarios:
-4 (Cubone, Rhyhorn, Meditite and Elekid) virtually never allow set-up. I won,t include here Shadow Ball locked Meditite here, since no good player will ever use that if he sees Screens.
-1 (Dustox) never allows set-up, providing Zig is not the only Mon remaining.
-3 (Delibird, Masquerain and Taillow) will never allow set-up providing they use their Standart sets (see: Sub Masquerai) and don,t choice-lock themselves into a bad move when a Screen user reveals himself.
-3 (Gloom, Nosepass and Staryu) have equally viable sets that allow set-up than those that don,t.
-1 (Delcatty) allows set-up.

I think this is already enough counterplay, but still will write more arguments. Looking at the B Ranks, only Bayleef, Butterfree (thanks to the Lum Berry), Castform (if not Band or Clima), Chinchou (Defensive), Lileep and Poliwag (not boosted) provide safe set-up oportunities under Screens. Of them, Bayleef and Lileep happen to be 2 of the only Mons that can survive a +6 Zigzagoon hit from full (though Lileep will die if Zig uses Iron Tail).

Starting from C Ranks, more set-up oportunities start to appear, but thats why they are C Ranks. Zigzagoon is also one of them, by the way.

But what happens if Zigzagoon happens to boost himself safely? Well, I still think there are ways to stop him after a sack:

Priority:

1:
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Delibird Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon: 114-135 (52.5 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO < Screens have only 5 turns in Adv, there is not Light Clay. 1 turn is needed to put them, 1 to use BD, another one to kill one Mon. There needs also to be a perfect timing with the death of the Screens user. Optimally, he will die the same turn he puts the right Screen that will allow Zigzagoon to set-up. In reality, this is unlikely to happen, so in practice, Zigzagoon will often have just 1 or 2 turns of Screens when he enters into the field. What I am trying to explain, is the reason I put a calc without Screens, this is a "common" of Zigzagoon setting-up and killing one Mon. After that, Delibird comes and has an 80% of Revenge Killing him.

2:
252 Atk Pure Power Meditite Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon: 87-103 (40 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO< This is not a Band Medi, Band does 59% minimum. Still, I feel this is enough, since Zigzagoon will likely be damaged not only from BD, but also from the weak move the Mon he killed before has used the turn Zig used BD.

3: 252 Atk Choice Band Taillow Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon: 115-136 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO< Same story here.

4:
0- Atk Elekid Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon: 36-43 (16.5 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO. < Even this is enough, as Zigzagoon will be damaged from BD and a weak Move.

5 and 6:
There are 2 other Ranked mons that learn Priority Moves and are faster than Zig, Farfetch'd and Meowth.

There is a way for Zig to overcome Priority, and is using this set instead of the Standart One:

Zig (Zigzagoon) (M) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Pickup
EVs: 12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Substitute

With Sub + Salac Berry, Zigzagoon is faster than Elekid (and everything else) and will attack first with Extreme Speed. However, this needs even more support than the original set as the damage that Zig needs to take is below 25%. Therefore both Screens and Memento support is needed and the only Mon that can provide that is Unranked right now ( will speak later about her).

Resisting +6 Zigzagoon hits:

1: +6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Nosepass: 229-270 (87 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO < If it has Explosion OR the Reflect already ended, it has a 71,2% to win.
2:
+6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Bayleef: 268-316 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO < If there is no Screen, HP Grass does 47% minimum. If somehow there is still a Screen, Bayleef could run Counter.
3:
+6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Return vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Seaking: 306-361 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO< Seaking is known as the best Rain Sweeper, but he is also the bulkiest Water in the Tier, so is a viable and customizable pick in Stall Teams or even some Balanced ones. 240 Defense EVs are needed to guarantee the survival of Return, much less for Extreme Speed. Surf does over 66% without Screen and investment.
4:
+6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Lileep: 200-236 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO < The main target of Iron Tail because of this. HP Grass does 47% minimun without Screen.
5:
+6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pineco: 249-294 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO< Is rare to have a Pineco with that much health when Zig comes, but it can happen. Zig can,t OHKO the bug from full, and only if there is still Reflect does Pineco need to explode.
6:
+6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Farfetch'd: 262-309 (85 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO< Niche set, but I have used it with some success. Zig will go for Extreme Speed fearing offensive Farf and will die to Body Slam.
7:
+6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Koffing: 242-285 (85.2 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO< Like Pineco, it doesn,t need to explode if there no Reflect left.
8:
+6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Onix: 84-99 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- 54.7% chance to 3HKO< Doesn,t need explanation. However, this one is unreliable, as Onix usually functions as a lead.
9:
+6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Kabuto: 138-163 (67.9 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO< One of the Mons on which Zig can set-up safely is a Rain Castform when there is no Rain. Well, Castform can put that Rain, die, and Kabuto will Revenge Kill easily.

Pretty sure there are more, non-standart sets of Mons like Delcatty, Illumise, Parasect or Gloom himself that could be eved to always survive any Move Zig does at +6, but those 9 are already enough in my opinion.

Except Koffing and Lileep, most of the above can be beaten with Spikes support. However, in my opinion Spikes are mediocre or bad in this Tier. Staryu is one of the best A Rank Mons and always ties at worst ( Explosion) to Pineco and beats Snorunt. I am yet to see a succesfull Cacnea, but even if it does exist, Spikes are just not that good. Even withou Staryu, many Mons prevent those Spikes and Pineco and Delibird can also Spin.

To sum it up, I feel that Zigzagoon has enough counterplay to not only prevent his set-up, but also to stop it if it manages to use Belly Drum safely. Therefore, if I am allowed to ban, I vote DO NOT BAN on Zigzagoon.

Gloom

Won,t extend as much on this one. Gloom is strong, is bulky and very versatile Mon. Its one of the best Sun Sweepers there, its a good Special Wall, amazing Status Spreader and can even sweep with SD. But is it Ban Worth? I don,t think so. Gloom is just a glue Mon that holds the Tier together, think about Landorus-T on SM OU or Kanga, Hypno and Omastar on Adv UU. The Sun Sweeper set has counterplay in common Mons like Dustox, Delcatty and Castform and more niche ones like Grimer. It suffers from the low Sun duration and can,t neither sweep by itself nor break holes in bulky well made teams. The defensive Set may check a lot of things, but only has 8 Syntesis PPs and the things it checks usually have coverage for Gloom as they would have for any other Bulky Grass or Poison Mon, wearing it down in the long run. In short, the ugly flower has high influence on the Tier , but doesn,t centralize it and is not broken or unhealthy. Therefore, I also will vote DO NOT BAN on Gloom.


Nominations for VR

Every Mon about which I will speak here is a Mon I have used or faced at least once either in Adv ZU Cup or in test battles, so I have no comments about things like Croconaw, Illumise or Spinda.

Seaking from B to A: Despite 5 turns, Rain is a good Playstyle. There are just 2 common Bulky Grasses in this Tier and 3 Bulky Waters, of which just 2 are commonly used (until this nomination). Seaking is the best Rain Sweeper by far and this nomination should reflect that. But not only its the best Rain sweeper, this fish also is the bulkiest Water in the Tier, a niche that is always useful. There are infinite EV combinations for Restalk Seaking with both Toxic and Ice Beam being viable options for the last slot. It counters Growlithe with that set and also gives troubles to opposing Rain Teams and (depending on the EVs) to strong phisical Mons like Delibird or Meditite. If I want to use Stall, I always consider Seaking for my team, its that good.

Horsea from D to C: Again, Rain is a very viable Playstyle, and this nomination should reflect that. Horsea is actually stronger on the special side than Seaking, although its worse at anything else (what did you want from an unevolved Mon?).

Kabuto from Unranked to C: The set is this one:


Lord Domo (Kabuto) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Atk / 248 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Surf
- Double-Edge

If this ranking system was made by order, I would actually rank Kabuto higher than Horsea. Its also a Rain Sweeper, but very different from both of the above. Typical Rain answers like Gloom and Castform can,t switch safely into Band Kabuto. At the same time, Mons than can switch into Band Rock Slide or Double Edge (see Rhyhorn and Nosepass) still die from Rain boosted Surf. With Rain on the field, Kabuto has no surefire counter and can even be used to avoid a Zigzagoon sweep if it sets up on Castform. Also resists QA from Delibird and Fake Out from Meditite.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-937493113 < An example of Kabuto sweep in Rain.

Poliwag from B to C As unreliable as Zigzagoon at sweeping. Thanks to Hypnosis it set-ups a little more often, but its also much easier to stop. It can,t share the rank of good Mons like Magnemite, Chinchou or Bayleef.

Growlithe from B to A Only Fire Type of the Tier if we discount the Sunny Castform, but a damn good one. As I already said, there is a lack of bulky waters in this Tier. There are also almost no Dragons and the only Rock that can reliably switch into it is Nosepass. Every time I build a Adv ZU Team I ask myself if I have a reliable way to stop Agility Growlithe, especially if its Sub-Petaya one (best set in my opinion). And unlike other boosters, it can boost in a lot of things, since it scares both S Rank mons and the miriade of Grass and Bug Types that are on this Tier, especually if they are paralyzed. Intimidate is also a great ability that gives this good boy ability to run some (maybe sub-par) defensive sets.

Snorunt from C to D As I already said, Spikes are not good in this Tier when Staryu is very common and the strongest Mon in the Tier (Delibird) is inmune to them. I can understand Pineco in C, as it has good bulk and can at least trade himself with Staryu (or something else) using Explosion or paralyze something with Body Slam when Staryu is not present. Snorunt however, has horrible Stats (where are you going with 50 in EVERYTHING) can,t scare anything besides Grass and Ground types and his defensive typing is terrible. I have not tried Cacnea, but if it turns out to be better when I do it, I would even nominate this to be Unranked.

Beautifly from Unranked to D Set:


ZUper Fly (Beautifly) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Silver Wind
- Aerial Ace
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Double-Edge


Its bad, but it has a niche. Swarm + Silver Wind does respectable damage and it can get to Swarm range by using Double Edge, which also hits quite hard. This is a Bug Flying Mon that doesn,t have to use Hidden Power as a STAB so it can use it to damage Rock or Steel types. Also has a 10% to be pretty much unstopable if it boosts in Swarm range.

Shuppet from Unranked to D Set:


Chupete (Shuppet) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

STAB Shadow Ball. No other reason needed. Also Spinblocks Pineco ( but not Staryu) and annoying Mon that paralyzes and hits quite hard. Inmune to Sleep Powder. Only very specific teams can use it, but its not entirely useless.

Kirlia from Unranked to D Sets:


Moon Dancer (Kirlia) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Trace
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Memento

Moon Dancer (Kirlia) (F) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Fire Punch
- Endure

First set is the only Mon with Dual Screens + Memento. Second set is a Chlorophile Mons Check that can also Trap Magnemite. Horrible Stats but impresive movepool to be explored, with options like Wish, WoW or Destiny Bond. Hits almost as hard as Natu if invested.


This is all, hope you have enjoyed this bible.
 
While we're at it, I'm just gonna give my two cents on these mons.


(Ban) Oh boy where do I begin. This thing is seriously unhealthy for the tier lmao. It's SunnyBeam set is incredibly powerful at breaking, hitting most of the tier with Solar Beam and HP Fire. The only checks I know are Growlithe, resisting both of those moves, SunnyBeam Castform, who can safely switch in and OHKO with Fire Blast, and on Discord, we've even considered Psyduck, who can actually hard counter sun on it's own, being able to outspeed Gloom, stopping Solar Beam with C9, sub on sleep and has a high chance to 2HKO (Modest) with Ice Beam. On the other hand, it's specially defensive set isn't too broken, there are way more checks like Delibird, HP Flying Meditite, Taillow, Koffing, etc. I'm not going too into depth on that. But the SunnyBeam set is what makes it really broken and that set alone can win games. BAN.


(Ban) Ziggy is near impossible to check with even one layer of spikes up, and once it sets up, it's practically unstoppable, espically if you're behind a sub. Rhyhorn and Nosepass, the best normal resists in the tier can't even survive an HP Ground/Iron Tail from it. The only mon that can really take a hit is Koffing, thanks to resisting HP Fighting, can even take an extreme speed, and an Iron Tail, immune to spikes, and Wisp it to cut it's sweep short. But that's about it and it can't even switch in safely lol. You can even go as far by using para and sleep support, hell even screens from Bayleef and even if that's a lot of support, it's a huge reward at the end of the day for Ziggy, and will knock your team to the ground. BAN.
 

Mavis

Banned deucer.
Okay, not too much I want to say here but I'll drop my opinions as they stand.

Zig: earlier this year in USM RU, we banned Linoone for a similar reason to the reason we're testing Zigzagoon now - the belly drum espeed combination, especially with literally just a single spike down, has virtually no counterplay whatsoever. Only thing that comes to my mind that can reliably check this thing is CB Taillow's Quick Attack, and while there are others probably, this little rodent doing things like killing Nosepass in one hit after a spike is absurd. Ban Zigzagoon.

Gloom: Another case of "we just banned this thing's evolution in a USM tier". Hate this mon. Always have always will, and I feel like I was one of the earliest players to call for it's ban. SunnyBeam has obnoxiously little defensive counterplay for something with as much uninvested defensive utility as gloom, and the ability to just straight up incapacitate a counter is ridiculous. You'd have to absorb the sleep, then bring a dedicated hard counter like Growlithe, and that's too much stress on building. Defensive sets are just as absurdly hard to play around, needed STAB Flying moves to break more often than not. Solid reliable check again cited as Taillow, but we all know how frail it is. Ban Vileplume I mean Ban Gloom.
 

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

aka Ho3nConfirm3d
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
ADV Suspect Votes / Arguments:


In my previous post about Zig, I established how threatening Zig can be to an unprepared, unexpected team. It can 1HKO most of the meta when boosted, and can end games instantly. Refer back to my original posts for a few replays, calcs, and other relevant information.

Here, I'd like to address that zig is not banworthy, and ADV players instead should do two things:
1: Expect / build for Zig.
2: Never put yourself in a sitution that allows Zig to likely get off a sub and BD, unless if you have priority / a reasonable wall that is still alive and can manage.

With these two standards in mind, Zig is absolutely manageable. Zig absolutely needs a ton of support to actually get itself going, and within doing so it becomes even more vulnerable. If a ZIg team is trying to get that support, it should be obvious. They'll try to paraspam the team, set up screens / memento, put something to sleep, and generally try to debilitate something while attempting to sack something to get a free switch in. If a player notices this tactic, they should expect Zig, and try their best not to let them get a free switch when they have a Pokemon that is paralyzed, stats lowered, and / or confused. Even then, there exists a handful of offensive priority users and a handful of defensive threats that can actually survive and deal with this goon.

Likely at its worse, Zig will get a BD off on the switch, kill the switch in, and lose to one of its checks. It only sweeps entire teams that don't keep a Zig check, or jeopardized their check too early on. If the Zig player has to have at least another team slot for its sweeping support (and likely there are multiple supporters), then I do not see why others can just build for one of their slots to be either a defensive or offensive check to Zig.

Replays:

Opp stayed in while paralysed and confused, let Zig sub and sweep:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-927139707

Zig got a BD off with screens, but was checked by a speed creeping HP Fighting Shuppet:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-948007699

Opp had spike support and CB Tailow for the revenge. Note that if reflect was still up, CB Quick Attack only did 24% and Zig would have lived.
(missed the replay here my bad lol)

Sweep starts turn 8, loses to Fake Out Medi. Note that the Sub Leftovers set could have set up subs between fake outs and possibly swept more:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-947869418

Not me, but Rave let his Koffing get paralysed as well as lacked Fake Out on Medi, thus letting Zig sweep:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-929192347


Gloom is easily the most versatile, threatening, and centralizing Pokemon in the ADV meta. It can preform almost any roll, and in particular it excels at being a physical wall and sun sweeper. Too many games have been ruled out in favor to the player kept their Gloom alive, as it naturally just checks so much of the meta. The sun sets have virtually no switch ins if Sleep Clause isn't activated yet, as some of the best checks like Sunny Castform or even the niche Pysduck can be put to sleep at the very least. Not to mention even with it up, Solar Beam is so dang strong it can do things like having a 37% chance to 1HKO Tailow, gurantee 2HKO Growlthie and phys def Koffing, and having a 47% chance to 2hko full special def Bayleef with a sun boosted HP fire. And unlike other weather sweepers, Gloom has the reliability to set up thanks to sleep powder, great bulk, and of course the opp having the guess if its sun, defensive, or even SD. Besides special def Gloom itself, only Lileep on the VR can reliably check it.

The defensive sets are arguably even better. Special defensive I believe is the best as it pairs well with defensive Nosepass or Rhyhorn, and checks a ton of other waters, grasses, and electrics. More so than just checking these special attackers, it severely neuters them with Leech Seed or Sleep Powder, and even threatens other Grass switch ins with Sludge Bomb. It is hard for teams to break these cores even with the right predications, as its so hard for Gloom to even get into kill range form. Why is it that a CB 252 Atk Castform's Double Edge is a guaranteed 3hko on the specially defensive sets??? Even without a single EV in physical defense, it can already check some of the stronger physical attackers. Even CB Hustle Deli only does 63% max, meaning theres so much leftover HP for getting off a Sleep Powder or Stun Spore if you really needed to. Meanwhile, the phys def sets aren't even 2hko'd by Aerial Ace.

Its absurd how viable and centralizing Gloom is in ADV. I believe the meta would be a whole better off without having this huge threat, and a lot of its rolls can be found with other mons: Sunny Day Egg, Phys Def Dustox, Special Def Lileep, ect. These mons though lack the incredible mixed bulk and statusing options that shouldn't be on a mon in this low of a tier. Ban Gloom.

VR Noms:


Talked to death about this mon but it's worth noting that if it isn't banned, its an incredibly centralizing and viable mon in the meta. It can be worth building teams around, and often fails when the opp has one too many checks/counters or outplays screen turns. Still, can be absolutely worth it and make huge dents. Worthy then, as an A rank sweeper.
Castform is our best special attacking WB, with the Sunny Day set in particular having to little to no switch ins, and is able to both break walls and check other grass sun sweepers. Past that, its a decent enough physical normal type attacker as well, and that 70/70/70 bulk is so good even when uninvested. Its a great mon that has a few worthwhile options that I don't believe any other A rank succeeds at. It can fit on any team, and that bulk and 70 speed tier means it will do something every game to say the least.

A reliable, fast Sleep Powder with sweeping potential is so valuable in this meta. Butterfree can Sub, Sleep, and Sweep with Petya berry support and perfect enough coverage with Psychic and Giga Drain. Its absolutely on the frail side, but unlike Masq, Sleep and a faster sub gives it more pseudo "bulk" than Intimidate. Personally I believe that Butterfree just does the roll better than Masq because of these qualities.

A +1 EQ is super dangerous, and at +1 speed you are only out sped by some of the faster threats like Elekid. Its a phenomnal late game sweeper that sets up on the CB Flying and Normal attackers of the tier, and can out speed most of them when setting up. Very viable I would say makes a great sweeper.

May edit with more but I'll get this out here for now!
 
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The results are in! The council has voted on ADV Gloom and Zigzagoon. Ho3nConfirm3d was added to the rotating council as a result of his quality discussion in room, discord, and forum, as well as his good ADV ZU Cup performance. Mana has not voted yet, but their votes cannot affect the outcome of either the Gloom or the ZIgzagoon vote.

voting:


Gloom is now banned from ADV ZU. Zigzagoon is NOT banned from ADV ZU.

How do you think this will affect the metagame going forward? Share your thoughts here! Thank you to everybody who gave input on the discussion.
 
The samples for DPP are a little undiverse and there's not a lot of them so here's a few teams I used in cup.

Omanyte + Kekleon Stall - https://pokepast.es/624fef10824b7739

This stall mostly relies on the hazard game and using the raw bulk of everything on the team to take advantage of it. Spikers here are kinda dogshit if u didn't notice so you have to compromise there. I have a different version of stall with Flareon>Shelgon and Budew as the spiker but Budew is in all honesty even more sus of a mon than Omanyte, which is at least a valid normal resist while Budew just kinda ish takes on Huntail rofl. Shelgon further takes advantage of the hazards and helps you not lose to fat set up like Swallot or CM Dusclopses (which can still win fairly comfortably vs this but you can at least try to drag it out lol). Kekleon is a nice check to stuff like Sunny Day Tangela and knocking leftovers off helps the team win quicker. Sadly move compatibility is fucked with Knock Off so you cant even run stoss/body slam/double edge

Specs Politoed BO - https://pokepast.es/1296741492568fc2

The aim for the most part here is to get Politoed in through Flareon and Persian. Persian invites in Politoed food like Lairon, Dusclops, Sudowoodo what have you. Lairon w Shuca lures Diglett so it can't trap your Flareon. Your own Diglett acts as the revenge killer next to Persian and also traps Normal resists (bar Dusclops) for Persian. Dusclops acts as the secondary normal resist since Lairon gets pressured very easily.
 

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

aka Ho3nConfirm3d
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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Gloom is gone, my ADV teams are all unusable... Now what?

Well, no worries! Gloom was an absolute threat in the ADV metagame that could fulfill a ton of roles, most of which it was so good at that it was the best pick for the slot (and also banworthy). That's not to say there aren't substitutes for these rolls that Gloom had, and often a lot of these subs saw play along side another Gloom set, showing that they were viable to an extent for filling Gloom's role already. Here are a few subs for some of Gloom's most common sets, and why these are less broken than Gloom but still can do the job:

Sunny Day Special Sweepers:

Sunflora @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Sunny Day
- Solar Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Substitute

Sunflora was always another sun sweeper that had an incredible special attack, and was a dangerous sweeper at that. Its low speed makes it still able to outspeed Elekid and below when in the sun, and will only be outsped by faster Chlorophyl users (and with Gloom gone, that will likely be rare for non-Sun teams to have). Like sun Gloom, its Solar Beam+ Sun HP fire tears through special walls and even resisted offensive mons, 2hko'ing the likes of Growlthie, special def Delcatty/Bayleef/Dustox, and 1HKO'ing most offensive mons.

While this may sound reminiscent of Gloom, the lack of Sleep Powder means Sunflora has a harder time dealing with what actually checks it. Castform still exists as an offensive check that will 1HKO with its Fire STAB in the sun, and special walls like Grimer and even Lileep also fail to be 2HKO'd. Sunflora still can Substtitue in an effort to block status and get a free turn to set up sun and special attack, but its lower speed and inability to trade off damage for sleep means its harder for it to set up sun and overall easier to revenge and deal with. It is still a scary threat for an unprepared team, but with limited sun turns and bulk.
Exeggcute @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Sunny Day
- Sleep Powder
- Solar Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Psychic / Explosion

Egg is a more faithful replacement to gloom, as it mimics the synergy of Sunny Day + Sleep Powder. I discussed in the Sunflora comparison about why this is helpful for both setting up sun on slower threats, as well as checking mons that you would normally be unable to deal with. Egg does this combo well, but has a few more limitations than Gloom. Its 25 less points of SpA means that special walls like Delcatty, Dustox, and Bayleef fail to be 2HKO'd in the Sun, and its less special defense makes it more susceptible to faster special attackers. There's still some variability here, with HP Fire being substituted for psychic to 2HKO the Poisons of the tier, and Explosion giving you the extra power needed to kill somethings as well as keep the Sun momentum up. Overall its a decent pick and replacement for your Sunny Day Glooms, but it's not going to be able to get away with as much.

Defensive Variants:

Dustox @ Leftovers
Ability: Shield Dust
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Moonlight
- Whirlwind
- Toxic
- Sludge Bomb / Hidden Power Ground

Special defensive Gloom was tough to deal with, as it had a lot offer in terms of supporting itself: Leech Seed, Synth, Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Toxic, Giga Drain recovery, and Sludge poisons to name a few. Nothing in the tier will match that supportive movepool and mixed bulk, but we have a few that come close. Dustox is able to check much of the same threats as Gloom and provides support from poison stalling and phazing threats with Whirlwind. It checks special attackers like a Hydro from Staryu/Seaking without Rain/+1 Masq,, and Tbolts from Ele and Mag, but not resisting these common special attacks is a bit of a shame. Though if your Gloom focused on taking special hits, statusing, and stalling with Synth, then Dustox could be a decent replacement. Just watch out for your now lack of Water and Electric resistances.
Lileep @ Leftovers
Ability: Suction Cupster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Recover
- Toxic
- Mirror Coat / Rock Slide

Lileep is an excellent special defensive wall, and checks much of the same as Gloom. One of the more outstanding features of special defensive Gloom was its ability to check even CB Normal attackers like a Double Edge from Castform or Tailow. Lileep does this as well with its Normal resistance, with the Rock typing being a problem again with its lack of a Water resistance and weakness to Fighting attacks from Meditite or Mankey. These shouldn't be the biggest problems to your existing teams tho as they were running HP Flying to deal with Gloom as is, so you aught to have a decent physical wall on top of Lileep like Koffing to help support it. Otherwise, Lileep can replace phys def or mixed def Gloom just as well, and maybe even the most faithfully. It's a good all-around check that won't let you down in the defense department, but it still lacks all the supportive moves that Gloom had that made it so threatening even as a wall.
Bayleef @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis
- Hidden Power Grass
- Toxic

Bayleef follows the trend of some defensive Glooms running both Synth + Leech Seed, allowing them to recover from attacks could normally break down Gloom. Bayleef also has comparable, and even a little better bulk all around, and can be a great addition to a defensive core. Ultimately it is a little pasisve, as a lack of Sleep Powder / a second STAB in Sludge Bomb makes it vulnerable to a lot more that can deal with it and don't mind a Toxic or Leech Seed: Growlthie, Dustox, Delibird, and Tailow can all switch into Bayleef and only fear some small chip damage on that first turn. This of course is in comparison for these prior Gloom checks having to fear being put to sleep or being 2HKO'd + Poisoned from a STAB Sludge Bomb. Overall, Bayleef checks what it needs too, but will not be able to punish what switches into it as well as Gloom did.
Exeggcute @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Synthesis
- Leech Seed / Stun Spore / Explosion
- Psychic

Unlike Bayleef, Exeggcute can threaten the Fire and Flying switch ins with both Sleep Powder and a STAB Psychic. That along with a physical bulk and almost identical movepool make Egg a great replacement to phys def Gloom. The biggest problem with Egg is its lack of special bulk, whereas an uninvested Gloom was able to take a lot more, and even punish and recover thanks to Leech Seed. But from a physical perspective, Egg is better at taking hits than Gloom was, and they virtually play the same. The somewhat worse typing and lack of Sludge Bomb is a bit of shame, but it's manageable, and Egg is a much more healthy wall with access to such a supportive movepool in comparison to Gloom.

Swords Dance / Sleep-and-Sweep:



Skiploom @ Leftovers / Salac Berry
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Synthesis / Substitute

I talked about how Gloom was able to set up Sunny Day a lot easier thanks to Sleep Powder, and some users in the ADV meta took that concept and applied it to Swords Dance sets. While it was easily the least and expected, some teams did enjoy the extra power and surprise it offered when they would switch Gloom into a special wall. Skiploom also has the Sleep + SD combo, and with an even better speed it can potentially set up and late-game sweep just as well as Gloom or Butterfree. However, Skiploom has a lot more limitations, with both a weaker attack stat and STAB, it is going to be much more manageable once Sleep Clause is in effect. Its also less bulky, and combined with a x4 weakness to Ice, it is now easily checked by HP Ice Elekid or Ice Beam Staryu, and many defensive mons that don't mind a +2 Flying attack and can 2HKO back with the weaknesses from the Flying typing: Nosepass, Rhydon, Magnemite, and Flaafy come to mind. Thus, Skiploom will not be as easy to replace Gloom with, and requires much more support or limiting options for it to get off. Instead, I believe there are better options for your sleep user.
Butterfree @ Leftovers
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Substitute
- Giga Drain
- Psychic

Butterfree pulls off the late game Sleep-and-Sweep combo the best in the ADV meta now that Gloom is gone. Check my ADV VR nominations earlier in the thread for replays and why I believe it can be so worthwhile, but in short its reliable Sleep Powder and Subsitute into the +1 SpA make it easily provide a dent in the opponents team, if not out right sweep it. It doesn't as a physical attacker, nor the ability to boost and recover, but ultimately even though it's less faithful it's the most viable for a sleep sweeper replacement for Gloom.

Note that these replacements shouldn't be slapped on your team and then call it a day. The changes in typing, movepool, and stats should totally be addressed, and you'll without doubt need to tweak your teams past just replacing Gloom. I hope this post does help though for rebuilding and recouping after the loss of Gloom, as well as highlight how centralizing and all encompassing Gloom was, justifying its ban further. And if anyone needs testing or wants to play, you can always ping the ADV tag on our old gens discord and I'd love to play!
 
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Some changes with DPP ZU:

Rises
: Dusclops, Politoed

Drops: Probopass, Sableye

Probopass and Sableye are now legal in DPP ZU! Dusclops and Politoed however have risen to higher tiers. How do you think this will affect the metagame? Additionally, to quell some whispers I've been hearing, I'll make it clear that Diglett is not currently under any consideration for a ban or suspect by the council.


e: ALSO:

BW ZU Update:

LAPRAS
is now banned from BW ZU via the recent tier shifts
 
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DnB

#DnB4608, its way easier on discord :>
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Really sad about Poli leaving DPP ZU, I just loved this Pokemon:

(Politoed) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA

- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Protect

This Set alone was so good, hitting most of the meta and especially with Hazards, even Dusclops couldn't switch in that easily. It was pretty fast for being modest and threatened the whole tier with its perfect coverage, killing Tangela and threatening most other defensive mons in the tier, while most offensive mons couldn't switch in because they would've just died to Hydro. I surprisingly didn't see it that often in battle tho :(


Dusclops gone is a good thing imo, now the tier lost its best Spinblocker and splashable mon, it fit on all teams because everyone wanted the best normal immunity + bulky monster and spreading burn is always nice, you couldn't normally kill it without a Resttalk Mon, SD Raticate or Ghastly

Probopass
Probo is an interesting drop, being bulkier than Lairon, but doesn't really threaten anything offensively. Might be nice as a Normal Resist that sets up rocks and spreads Para, but Kecleon can come in every day on it. But it's nice, having a counterpart to Lairon which kinda fullfills the same rolls, not that powerful, but being able to hit on the special side.

Some Sets:
Standard Trapper

Setting Rocks, crippling Special Walls with TWave/Toxic and trapping Lairon/Probo, max Speed is kinda needed tho to at least tie with Lairon. Flash Cannon/Power Gem depends on the Team, although I found Power Gem better in all scenarios, just a nice stab to have.

specs (lol)
Surprisingly that can work, since many Quagsires don't mind to switch in on it and its mostly the chosen Rock resist in the Tier. HP Grass just kills it and you're free to Power Gem your way through

Suicide Lead
Solrock does it way better, but Probo, again, can trap Lairon and kill it, which Solrock can't (it does ~70% with EQ tho.


Diglett exists tho, as well as way to many EQ Users, but overall that Drop is really interesting.

Sableye:
Sableye tho is weird to use. I just slammed it on my teams instead of Dusclops. It kinda does the same thing, but isn't nearly as bulky. Its dark typing is really nice tho, so its not free food for Stunky and Gastly, but offensively Banette is just better, with way more attack, better speed and better bulk, despite having the annoying dark/ghost weakness. Its a nice spinblocker tho

i tried to be dusclops
this was dusclops before, Sableye did an OK job

Standard Set
Nice physical wall, but still gets 2hKOed by most of the physical threats, imo a bad set in the tier, works well in higher tiers tho lol

Anti Lead
Sableye can work as an anti lead tho. It's faster than Lairon, Probopass, Kecleon or Sudowoodo and can Taunt them, preventing Rocks. Its also annoying for Persian, a common Lead in the Tier and since Flareon and Magmar are the only real fire types in the tier, you get a free WoW on the opposing Team. But Solrock is still faster, but you can at least burn it to make its SE/BOOM weaker. Knock Off is a nice move in the tier, because many Mons rely on Leftovers for Revovery and removing them is always nice. Does no Damage tho :/


Not sure about Sableye, CM Sets are imo not worth it, although Resttalk CM Dark Pulse could work, but its still weak. Banette is way better on the offensive side, but I could see Sableye work on more Defensive Teams that focus on Hazards, acting as a Spinblocker and Status Spreader.

i still hit like a wet noodle
Even at +6, it can't really OHKO anything and if the opponent hast something like a Resttalk Quag, he just brings it in and boosts against you
+6 0 SpA Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 228-268 (57.8 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0 SpA Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 228-268 (57.8 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
But it CAN work


Overall tho, I love the Shifts, its always nice to see such old metas change from time to time, in a Tier like DPP ZU, where you have maybe ~50 usable mons, the meta can get very stale, but these shifts change everything up, so good job council :]
 
magmar->a/a+

Fantastic speed tier, big spatk stat, usable attack stat. The 3 sets that I have used are specs sub toxic and cb
Cb can be seen as an inferior set that works as a lure being able to clean ohko max hp lapras with cross chop, do 70 percent upwards to solrock with iron tail, 2 of the best checks to magmar
Sub toxic works similarly while being less immediately threatening being very obnoxious in longer games. Reliably checking tangela is also a big feat not to be underestimated. Complements fwg cores with wartortle/staryu and tropius/tangela/carnivine wonderfully too
 

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