Resource ZU Old Gens Hub - DPP Shifts @134

I am here double posting again, yes.
GSC week has ended and alongside it, the first cycle of Old Gen of the Week has ended too. So first, I want to thank everyone who joined the tournaments and discussion here, in the room or in the discord. I think the exposure the ZU old gens got in these last few weeks was really nice and I'm looking forward to the 2nd cycle that is already underway!
:snubbull: Now, about Snubbull. :snubbull:
It ended up being a way lesser threat than we thought it would be. Snubbull's average bulk and low speed makes using Heal Bell hard without welcoming setup sweepers or breakers and being forced out or taking significant chip since it lacks good resists due to its normal type. Offensively, everything it could try to do is better done by Teddiursa, which just has better stats and Earthquake, forcing Snubbull to use support sets, which makes it easy to play around. The meta is also not really thaaaat big for Heal Bell, since mons like Bayleef and Koffing run other recovery moves than Rest and without Spikes full defensive teams are hard to justify, with teams usually peaking at 3 Restalk users max. Therefore, the GSC ZU council is unanimously unbanning Snubbull in GSC ZU, and we will rank it in the VR later.
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That's all folks!​
 

SBPC

stranded on an island
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Hey guys! It's been quite some time since BW ZU has had some form of update.

Screenshot_20210515-174502-789.png

....oops.

But I have some great news for you guys. BW ZU had gotten another shift!

Rising to BW PU:
:bw/Purugly: :bw/Scraggy: :bw/Krokorok: :bw/Sneasel:

Dropping to BW ZU:
:bw/Articuno: :bw/Muk: :bw/Duosion: :bw/Mr Mime: :bw/Glalie: :bw/Shuckle: :bw/Graveler: :bw/Pikachu: :bw/Abra: :bw/Lairon: :bw/Grumpig: :bw/Huntail: :bw/Machoke:

Losing a few key metagame pokemon such as Purugly is sure to shake the meta some. Due to the insane power level coming down from PU to join us, the BW ZU Council has taken a vote on some of the more broken looking threats from this list, being Articuno, Muk, Duosion, Mr Mime, and Huntail. A majority 2/3 was needed to ban a pokemon, so here are the results.

Articuno: DNB
Articuno looks fun to play with, and while offensively strong isn't overbearing at a glance

Muk: DNB
With checks such as Marowak and new Psychics being a thing i wanna give this a chance

Duosion: Ban
Literally an instant win in 90% of mus. We also just lost 2 of our best darks

Mr Mime: DNB
maybe broken but i wanna see it

Huntail: Ban
Shell Smash + Water STAB has no switchins, ice beam kills the few that exist, also multiple sets

Cuno: dnb, this looks potentially scary on fat teams, but a 50% rocks weakness is a crippling disability here, giving it a very difficult time coming in on various top offensive threats, namely emolga and every single fucking fire

Muk: dnb, mon looks fun, cursetalk simply will not be able to set up in a tier featuring both wormadam trash and lampent as well as marowak near the top, we also gained multiple checks to it in the shift including mr. mime, graveller, lairon and abra, this mon seems fine

duosion: ban, i have nothing to add this mon is broken

Mr. Mime: seems like a healthy addition to the tier, dnb

Huntail: i'm honestly contrarian on this, we're freeing a lot of stuff that looks to effectively check it in theory, i'm outvoted so it doesnt rly matter but this mon has hardore 4mss bc if you run crunch to beat frillish you cant fit sucker and get shit on by scarfers, on top of this i find that this thing has a very VERY hard time setting up vs any special threat, i personally can see a few checks to this naturally rising to the plate with how shifts went, if this stays and is completely broken im fine with eating my words though

Articuno: do not ban for now, but it will surely be good, but its kept in check due to no good spinners in the tier, so i guess its fine for now, but could become a problem, i remember using scarf articuno in BW FU (before ZU was a thing, but the same thing tbh)

Muk: ban, i think this thing will be too much. resttalk, subpunch or CB look super strong and threatening, in a tier, where no good psychics exist outside of mr mime (soon). we have some ground types, notable marowak, but other than that, muks bulk is just insane and i think just too strong for this tier.

duosion: ban, not sure how this thing ended up in ZU, as many people use it in NU. insane bulk, really scary setup sweeper, double dancers sets would be too much for the tier imo

mr mime: do not ban, looks fine, this thing is always fun

huntail: ban, i abused the shit out of this in bw pu in rain teams, in ZU it can just use shell smash and still has decent physical bulk to tank prio moves. can also use crunch to demolish frillish, meaning that the only reliable check would be palpitoad, since you never know if huntail will be physical or special

With this, Duosion and Huntail are banned from BW ZU.

feel free to post thoughts on the metagame, who won and lost from this shift, and potenial new samples with teams you used in the upcoming BW ZU tour week.
 
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DPP ZU Spreadsheet for all legal Pokemon except Sableye and Probopass, which are legal and were new drops to the meta. This was made with lots of help from Ezaphs. Thank you so much for your hard work! Features a tier list, role compendium, and speed tiers!
This spreadsheet is badly organized. If Sableye and Probopass were unbanned, why don't you just update the spreadsheet? There are like 4 NFE Pokemon in the FE column, and like 4 other Pokemon missing from the NFE column. Why did you remove those 4 NFE Pokemon and say "Pre-evolutions of legal FEs won't be listed unless potentially meta-relevant" instead of just making a complete list?
 
Hello! I would like to submit a Sample for ADV ZU.

:aipom: :taillow: :lileep: :rhyhorn: :chinchou: :grimer:

As the name suggests the main crux of this team is it's 2 Banded Normal Types. However this team also revolves around answering the main offensive threats of the tier. Double Edge Spam has been dominating the tier and Rain is also exceptionally threatening. My main idea while making this team is to not only use my Banded Normals to overwhelm defense, but to use a sturdy defensive core to defend against the offensive threats of the Meta.

Right of the start I'll lead with my first offensive Banded Normal, Aipom. My main strategy here is to simply Nuke any opposing lead with the sheer power of Aipom's Double Edge, and use BP to maintain momentum if necessary. I am running Jolly > Adamant largely as the power boost from Adamant in my opinion doesn't outweigh outspeeding + Speed Delibird and Adamant Aipom.

Taillow is my second Banded Normal, and my end game cleaner, as Aipom often kills itself with Double Edge. Aipom is chosen over it as my lead due to Baton Pass and Taillow's ability to punish Banded Ground moves.

Lileep compresses a huge amount of Roles, handling Double Edge Users + Answers, Rain Abusers, and checking Elekid. Against Rain Lileep avoids a OHKO from every one of Rain's Abusers, letting me stall with Recover until dealing crucial chip with Giga Drain, or get a KO. My deviation from the standard set is HP Fire over Mirror Coat, since most people assume Mirror Coat, and HP Fire lets me punish Magnemite and Snorunt. The PP loss over HP Grass hasn't been an issue due to the pace at which my team operates.

252+ Atk Choice Band Aipom Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 91-108 (27 - 32.1%) -- 46.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 141-166 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Taillow Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 73-87 (21.7 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Rhyhorn Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 115-136 (34.2 - 40.4%) -- 44.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyhorn Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 171-202 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Magnemite Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lileep: 110-130 (32.7 - 38.6%) -- 4.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Lileep Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite: 110-130 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Nosepass: 96-114 (36.5 - 43.3%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Nosepass Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 61-72 (18.1 - 21.4%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Elekid Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Lileep: 119-140 (35.4 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Mystic Water Seaking Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lileep in Rain: 255-300 (75.8 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Seaking Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 139-164 (41.3 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Seaking Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lileep: 164-194 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Seaking: 107-126 (35.5 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Mystic Water Horsea Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lileep in Rain: 266-313 (79.1 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Horsea Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lileep: 171-202 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Horsea: 239-282 (118.9 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Rhyhorn is my next Normal Resist. While having 2 might seem excessive, Lileep often fainting against Rain means I need a backup. Rhyhorn also allows me to take advantage of many leads, such as Banded Aipom and Voltorb.

Chinchou is my backup Rain Counter, as while it can't Stall it can overpower the Abusers while not getting OHKOed by any of their moves. It's resistance to Boltbeam + Water is also crucial defensively, notably handling Lileep and Grimer's shaky Magnemite MU.

252+ SpA Mystic Water Seaking Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou in Rain: 179-211 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Seaking Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chinchou: 170-200 (58.4 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Seaking Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou: 171-202 (58.7 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Seaking: 244-288 (81 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Mystic Water Horsea Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou in Rain: 187-220 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Horsea Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou: 178-210 (61.1 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Horsea: 552-650 (274.6 - 323.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Chinchou Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite: 206-243 (81.1 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Grimer is my final Pokemon and it acts as a glue for my team. It acts as a catch all special wall for most of the Special threats I have not listed, while also acting as a back up Elekid counter should Lileep fall. It also captializes on more passive walls and Fighting Moves, with Grimer often turning them into setup fodder. Finally it can also score some chip on Rain of needed, but it's lack of supereffective damage makes it only an emergency choice.

252 SpA Elekid Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grimer: 107-127 (29.3 - 34.8%) -- 11.7% chance to 3HKO

0 Atk Grimer Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Elekid: 173-204 (74.8 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Mystic Water Seaking Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grimer in Rain: 244-288 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Grimer Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Seaking: 115-136 (38.2 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Mystic Water Horsea Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grimer in Rain: 255-301 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Grimer Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Horsea: 109-129 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As I had said, this team has both a strong offense and ironclad defense in order to reliably counter the most effective stratagies and Pokemon in this tier. I thank the Old Gens Council for reading this and considering my team for the sample spot. I have had good success with this team in the ADV Room Tours, and hope others may enjoy them with this team.
 
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SBPC

stranded on an island
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
The BW ZU Council has decided to suspect test Marowak.

Marowak is an incredibly powerful wallbreaker in the BW ZU metagame, and post shifts, a bulky behemoth of a stealth rock setter with a free doubling of its attack stat on entry with Thick Club. Marowak has very few reliable switchins due to its amazing STAB and access to neutral coverage with recoil-free Double Edge, with the addition of having two free moveslots to run utility such as Knock Off or Stealth Rock, while being able to slot on extra coverage such as Stone Edge or the niche Smack Down to remove its otherwise counter in Solrock. It's strength only tripled from the recent shift as Glalie gives it spikes support, making switchins that take chip from spikes incredibly unreliable.

Marowak however can be offensively revenged, even through its incredible bulk, threats such as special emolga with HP Grass or Pelipper can find ways to push Marowak out, giving opening and a breath of air from its offensive barrages. It's low speed also makes it prone to being revenge killed easily.


The suspect will be conducted through a series of suspect tours in the Zeroused room.
Schedule: (all times in gmt-6)
Wednesday:
12 PM and 7 PM
Thursday:
12 PM and 7 PM
Friday:
12 PM and 7 PM

The BW ZU Council will automatically be given requirements necessary to vote, giving a total of 9 unique voters for the suspect. If someone who has already gotten a suspect tour win is to win another suspect tour, the voting is giving to the runner up of that tour.
 

Tack

I can hear your falling heart crashing...
is a Community Contributor
In preparation for BW ZU Cup happening in classic as well as the marowak ban+massive shift, the BW ZU Council has put together a team to help with viability rankings going forward, and pushed a new preliminary rankings to match the current meta.
s/o BeatsBlack JonAmon 25 BloodAce SSJRobbieRotten Sificon y'all r cool.

also we updated validator to match shifts and *hopefully* didnt miss anything.
 
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SBPC

stranded on an island
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
The BW ZU Council has decided to act on Machoke. Due to its incredibly uncompetitive nature with access to No Guard + Dynamic Punch, in addition to it's already difficult to wall universal coverage, it's an incredibly tier defining threat that can make entire games close to unplayable off in one or two turns due to confusion chance.

Tack: Ban, machoke in this meta feels almost exactly the same as fucking around with regigigas, if it gets a turn of selfhit from confusion theres insanely good odds game is over immediately, i believe wholeheartedly that this mon is uncompetitive and that freeing it was a mistake

DnB: Ban: Machoke has the Ability to beat every single one of its check with just 1 lucky confusion. Even though we got some more psychic types with the last tier shift, they still can't switch directly in, without risking of getting confused or bopped by Payback. It's movepool is huge, allowing it to hit everything it wants, same goes for the sets, offensive, defensive, even special defensive is possible. There is no reason not to use this thing on every team, thanks to its ability to fill so many roles + the aspect that you can always get lucky with that 1 confusion and win the game.

SBPC: Ban: Machoke is an already incredibly threatening pick on most teams due to its high stats and monsterous eviolite bulk, making it an already centric tier threat. However, the addition of No Guard + Dynamic Punch makes it consistently able to apply situations where the opponent on the receiving end of the attack has no options due to confusion chances, which can be stacked alongside Thunder Wave. Machoke is by definition uncompetitive in the tier, and I will be voting to ban it.

With a 3/3 unanimous vote, Machoke is banned from BW ZU
 
anyone whos been in the zu room for the past 2 months has probably seen me asking for adv games so im here to put my credentials to good use. i'd like to nom the newest drop :aipom: to s-rank.

i personally believe that :aipom: is deserving of being alongside :castform: and :delibird: in the adv zu meta. its choice band sets are no joke, and is arguably the best user of the item in the tier. though its attack stat is lacking, it is on par with the aforementioned :castform: at base 70, but it boasts both a higher speed stat (85 vs the meteorologist's 70) and an access to stronger physical moves in brick break and focus punch. coming back to its speed tier, it is one of the fastest pokemon in the tier, hitting 295 with 252 evs and a positive nature, matching a-rank mons like :taillow: and :staryu:. the only notable mons that outspeed are :voltorb: and :elekid: (mons like :luvdisc:, :meowth:, and :poliwag: are not very viable or used all that often or ever?). aside from choice band sets, it has a ton of utility options that set it apart from the rest of the tier, and again, its speed tier lets it make use of them quite nicely. moves like thunder wave, taunt, baton pass, and seismic toss are great on support sets, and even choice band can utilize baton pass to pivot, a unique option that typical choice band users in the tier cannot boast.

in short, i think that its power, speed, versatility, and splashability warrant :aipom: to be placed within s-rank.

edit:

and there you have it folks
 
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This spreadsheet is badly organized. If Sableye and Probopass were unbanned, why don't you just update the spreadsheet? There are like 4 NFE Pokemon in the FE column, and like 4 other Pokemon missing from the NFE column. Why did you remove those 4 NFE Pokemon and say "Pre-evolutions of legal FEs won't be listed unless potentially meta-relevant" instead of just making a complete list?
Not to fear, I am currently updating the entire spreadsheet to make it as comprehensive as possible, will have it out in the next few days, stay tuned!

Only 4 months late :)

Here's a teaser of the first page, the speed tiers and role compendium will be done as well!
Screen Shot 2021-09-03 at 11.25.35 PM.png
 
Not to fear, I am currently updating the entire spreadsheet to make it as comprehensive as possible, will have it out in the next few days, stay tuned!

Only 4 months late :)

Here's a teaser of the first page, the speed tiers and role compendium will be done as well!View attachment 369629
I am double posting. I am sorry.

I am also, however, done with the full resource spreadsheet for DPP ZU! I am so happy with how it all turned out, especially with the role compendium. It was a lot of effort, but there is not a single more comprehensive resource for any Old Gen! Every viable threat how has its own speed tier listed, and any relevant strategy for any viable Pokemon in the meta can now be searched with the touch of the Ctrl+F buttons. DPP Players, feel free to utilize this for any future ZUPL and ZU DPP Cups. Will continue to update if necessary, and feel free to PM me for any improvement ideas or constructive criticisms. Thanks!

P.S. Feel free to hire me for updating any other old gen resources, I have the experience now, although any requests will definitely take time :)
 
After gaining a possibly unhealthy obsession with ADV ZU, and playing it in Classic for a bit, I've got a few noms as well as thoughts about the Meta.

Rises:


:rs/aipom:


:aipom:
New/UR -> A Rank

Aipom @ Choice Band
Ability: Run Away
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Brick Break
- Baton Pass
- Toxic

(Maybe Shadow Ball for Ghosts and Focus Punch as stronger Fighting Coverage?)

Note that this and a later Aipom set are my creation, so I don't claim that these are the "standard" and don't speak for anyone else. However, I have found a good deal of success with them.

I joined right as Aipom dropped, as so far it's been nothing but spectacular. While it has competition with other Normal Spammers, it stands right beside them, if not then above. While it does lose out on Quick attack and a Flying Typing from Taillow, and Bulk and versatility from Castform, it makes this up with power to match Castform, Speed to match Taillow, and pure utility from Baton Pass. This combination makes Aipom a fantastic lead, with with it able to steamroll the opposing lead with its power, or Baton Pass out at any sign of trouble.

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Growlithe: 244-288 (97.2 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Butterfree: 340-400 (129.7 - 152.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snorunt: 340-400 (141 - 165.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cyndaquil: 378-445 (172.6 - 203.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While the latter 2 use Endure, Aipom has the capability of limiting Snorunt to 1 Layer of Spikes, and forcing Cyndaquil to Endure or swap, allowing Aipom to get a free Baton Pass in into one of its teammates. And it isn't limited to just being a lead, or useless after being used as one. The vast majority of the meta is outsped and either OHKOed or stomped after a bit of chip, making it a dangerous wallbreaker and cleaner.

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Grimer: 340-400 (93.4 - 109.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chinchou: 413-486 (116.6 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Delibird: 367-432 (158.8 - 187%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bagon: 296-349 (128.1 - 151%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dustox: 263-310 (81.1 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This replay is a great example of how CB Aipom can turn seemingly even games into sweeps. Once all the Normal Resists were removed Aipom simply won the game. Ignore the lead swap, at the time I was unaware of the Growlithe Calc at the time. I didn't BP as I didn't want to pass the Attack drop.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-1327630810

As shown, Aipom does take a ton of recoil, but the fact of the matter is that without a Normal resist it plows through Pokemon after Pokemon without a second thought. And while those aformentioned Normal resists are great, they aren't perfect, as they greatly fear Brick Break.

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rhyhorn: 171-202 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Brick Break vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Nosepass: 127-150 (48.2 - 57%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 221-260 (87 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 141-166 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

While it hardly mows them down, it does do considerable damage, something especially notable to the ones without Reliable Recovery. However, to be fair not going for Double Edge is risky for Aipom as Brick Break is easier to stomach. Thus, an almost perfect solution to this perdicament has been found.

Aipom @ Leftovers
Ability: Run Away
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Focus Punch
- Return / Double Edge
- Substitute
- Brick Break (Could be replaced)

SubPunch Aipom acts as a perfect workaround to the various Normal Resists, while also being a dangerous Pokemon in its own right.

252 Atk Aipom Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rhyhorn: 229-270 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aipom Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rhyhorn: 115-136 (38.2 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aipom Focus Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Nosepass: 170-200 (64.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aipom Brick Break vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Nosepass: 86-102 (32.6 - 38.7%) -- 4.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aipom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 294-346 (115.7 - 136.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aipom Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 147-174 (57.8 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aipom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 187-220 (55.6 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aipom Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 95-112 (28.2 - 33.3%) -- 91% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Aipom: 71-84 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 94.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Lileep Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Aipom: 82-97 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 5.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

As shown, our best Normal Counters are ground to dust by Focus Punch + Brick Break. Only Lileep stands a chance against it, but the damage remains huge. And the best part about this is that Aipom doesn't need to instantly reveal which set it's running, making countering it even harder.

However, SubPunch Aipom isn't the perfect workaround to CB Aipom's problems. It oftentimes just doesn't nearly as hard as CB Aipom, leading to Pokemon like Cubone suddenly becoming good Aipom checks, while Aipom loses any hope of breaking through walls such as Bayleef and Koffing.

252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Aipom: 322-380 (127.7 - 150.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cubone: 204-241 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Aipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cubone: 137-162 (56.8 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Aipom Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cubone: 117-138 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bayleef: 164-193 (50.6 - 59.5%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aipom Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bayleef: 109-129 (33.6 - 39.8%) -- 26% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bayleef: 94-111 (29 - 34.2%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Koffing: 146-172 (51.4 - 60.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aipom Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Koffing: 97-115 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- 50.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Koffing: 84-99 (29.5 - 34.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Thus Aipom does have several flaws that keep it in A Tier. As shown it really wants to have the power of Band but at the same time is often turned into fodder by Normal resists if it perdicts wrong or after it gets a KO. SubPunch alleviates this issue but leads it to be walled by far more Pokemon. There is also the issue of the Double Edge Recoil, as oftentimes it simply can't handle the sheer amount of damage it dishes out. However, this doesn't take away from just how good Aipom is overall. It has its struggles, but its Power, Speed and Versatility makes it a real threat in ADV ZU.


:rs/rhyhorn:


Rhyhorn @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature (Jolly is arguably better, however most of my experience comes from Adamant)
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Substitute
- Megahorn
This will likely be my most contraversial nomination, but I say
:rhyhorn:
A Rank -> S Rank

Substitute Rhyhorn is possibly the most dangerous Pokemon in the Meta right now. With the omnipresence of Taillow, Aipom, and other Normal Types, Substitute Rhyhorn is a great counter to these Double Edge Spammers. However, unlike its contemporaries, Nosepass, Mangemite, and Aron, Rhyhorn not only forces these threats out, but functions as a huge offensive threat in its own right. With Substitute and the great QuakeSlide Combo, Rhyhorn forces the oppodent on the defensive, and oftentimes is guarantee a KO for every time it successfully Blocks a Double Edge. It can't be understated how powerful its ability to not only defend against against Normal Spam, but to completely 180 the momentum of the game. With an easy entry in the form of the largest metagame threats, while also being just as, if not more, threatening once on the field, I believe Rhyhorn is truly worthy of an S Rank.

Now I did go on about how Aipom has a workaround set for Rhyhorn, and other threats such as Taillow and Castform do have coverage for Rhyhorn, but on a game-to-game basis they usually have to go for Double Edge in order to avoid getting KOed in return. This 50/50 is exceptionally risky, and excluding SubPunch Aipom the Normals are put in a perdiction for their lives. And there is still nothing stopping Rhyhorn from setting up a Sub after a KO, making many losses on your side simply trades.

And its not just limited to checking Normals. Significant Poison types such as Grimer are turned into complete setup fodder with Substitute and SD. Dustox could Toxic Rhyhorn but at the cost of likely being KOed.

While it is exceptionally hard to switch into, it is important to mention Standard Substitute Rhyhorn's few Chekcs. These are mostly bulky Grass Types in the form of Bayleef and Lileep. Each easily come into Rhyhorn's STABs and threaten an OHKO with their Grass STAB. However, they do greatly fear Megahorn.


252+ Atk Rhyhorn Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bayleef: 180-212 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Bayleef Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rhyhorn: 503-592 (167.1 - 196.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Rhyhorn Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 183-216 (54.4 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rhyhorn: 428-504 (142.1 - 167.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Cubone is another nasty MU, as it isn't OHKOed by anything and threatens a KO back with Bonemerang. Finally Rhyhorn is checked by many Special Attackers in the tier. While they can't come in safely, the likes of Chinchou, Elekid, Growlithe, and many more obliterate Rhyhorn if it's not behind a Sub.

However, many of its greatest enemies are also its greatest partners. Special Attacker such as Chinchou also love its ability to handle Special Walls, while they break through the Phsyical Walls it gets annoyed by. The Grasses also make good partners, as they appreicate Rhyhorn's ability to deal with Poisons, while they deal with opposing Rock, Ground and Water Types.

And we're not done with sets. Rhyhorn has one more to work with.

Rhyhorn @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (Maybe Adamant?)
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Megahorn
- Double-Edge

While I believe Sub is the superior set for easing perdiction, CB is nothing to sneeze at. With its sheer power, its even harder to switch into, though its reliant on perdiction. More importantly, using CB Rhyhorn means you're not using Sub Rhyhorn, which to be honest is a huge downside.

Despite going in depth on Rhyhorn's faillings, with Rhyhorn countering the dominant stratagy in ADV ZU, and being a great Pokemon in its own right, justifies S Rank. In virtually every battle I have seen it in, either for or against me, it has proven itself as an exceptional threat on both sides. It's just so absurdly dangerous even with it's flaws. It is a top-tier ADV ZU Pokemon, and a genuine contender for the best.


:rs/lileep:


:lileep:
B Rank -> A Rank

Lileep @ Leftovers
Ability: Suction Cups
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Recover
- Toxic
- Mirror Coat

Lileep @ Leftovers
Ability: Suction Cups
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold / Relaxed Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Rock Slide
- Toxic
- Recover

Note that the top set is the standard, and the bottom is the one I use the most. I find that Defense investment is more useful as Lileep still handles most important Special Attackers anyways, and the added Defense helps against Rhyhorn and Normal Spammers. I used to run HP Fire for Snorunt, Magnemite and Pineco, however I believe Rock Slide is more useful at taking out the more common Taillow and Delibird. I've also found Mirror Coat to be very perdicatable, which is why I run without it. The standard set absolutely has its merits, but as the bulk of my usage of Lileep uses my set, I'll base my nom of my usage of it with my set.

Lileep has cemented itself as a top tier wall, possibly the definitive wall of ADV ZU. I went on about how amazing Rhyhorn's offensive utility was in checking the various Normals of the tier, but Lileep's sheer defensive power arguably makes up for that. Its massive bulk along with great defensive typing grant it the ability to counter a massive amount of Pokemon in the tier, most notably the Normals, but unlike Rhyhorn it also beats back the plethora of Special Attackers in the tier.

252+ Atk Castform Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 61-72 (18.1 - 21.4%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Castform Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 96-114 (28.5 - 33.9%) -- 98.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 141-166 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aipom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 187-220 (55.6 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aipom Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 95-112 (28.2 - 33.3%) -- 91% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Taillow Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 115-136 (34.2 - 40.4%) -- 44.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 170-200 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- approx. 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cubone: 153-180 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (22.9 - 26.7% recovered)

252+ Atk Rhyhorn Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 115-136 (34.2 - 40.4%) -- 44.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Rhyhorn Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 183-216 (54.4 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rhyhorn: 428-504 (142.1 - 167.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Chinchou Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lileep: 153-180 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Elekid Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lileep: 119-140 (35.4 - 41.6%) -- 80.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Growlithe Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lileep: 161-190 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Croconaw Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lileep: 142-168 (42.2 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Mystic Water Horsea Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lileep in Rain: 266-313 (79.1 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Horsea: 239-282 (118.9 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While it's no one crinoid army, it does have very favorable MUs against the variety of Special Attackers listed here. While Rhyhorn needs to hide behind a Sub to have a chance against these threats, Lileep can switch into and beat these threats 1v1. And Lileep remains a fantastic check and counter to most of these Physical Attackers, stonewalling the majority of Normal Spammers and checking the dangerous Grounds of Rhyhorn and Cubone. As a wall Lileep handles so much of the offensive Meta it almost single handedly makes defense easy despite the sheer relative power of the Meta.

However, Lileep does have flaws that keep it as a worse Pokemon compared to Rhyhorn, at least in my opinion. If it can't hit something supereffectively, it is soley reliant on Toxic and Mirror Coat to do meaningful damage. Its greatest issue is its passivity, which causes it to have a very unfavorable MU vs Poison Types. While Rhyhorn can turn Grimer into complete set up fodder, and has a good MU vs. Dustox and Koffing, Lileep is stonewalled by them, and set up on in the case of Grimer. It also struggles against Sub users who it can't hit supereffectively, such as Natu. This is unlike Rhyhorn, who while struggles with more Pokemon, can usually cheese them with Substitute and Megahorn if they're forced in.

Lileep's passivity also spells bad news for it if it's Posioned. With the plethora of Toxics flying around, once it gets Toxiced it's often just a meat shield, as it is constantly forced to recover and thus is unable to use Toxic or Attack. This is also unlike Rhyhorn, who can Sub to guard against Toxic, and even if Poisoned it remains far from useless.

Where does this leave Lileep? Still a fantastic Wall, with flaws as any Pokemon would have. And it being "worse" than Rhyhorn isn't terrible when it preforms the essential role of checking the Special Attackers Rhyhorn struggles with. This makes them good partners oddly enough, as Rhyhorn can handle the Poison Types Lileep hates, while Lileep walls the dangerous Special Attackers Rhyhorn cannot come into. Overall if Rhyhorn is the Tank of ADV ZU, Lileep is the Wall.


:rs/Horsea:


:Horsea:
C Rank -> B Rank

Despite its flaws Horsea has cemented itself as a powerful threat in the Meta. While it's absurdly frail, its ability to wreak havoc once Rain is up cannot be denied. While it'd simply be a gimmick since setting up Rain by itself is borderline impossible, it has the ultimate partner in crime in Seaking. The one-two punch of Horsea and Seaking is impossible to wall, and this isn't even going into Voltorb also being able to set up Rain for the pair as well. Without Seaking and Voltorb, Horsea would be nowhere, but with having such an exceptional partner and setter, it deserves to be ranked higher. However, its still not higher due to these aformentioned flaws and heavy reliance on team support to do its job. I'll get into Rain more in the Rain section.

Drops:

:rs/Magnemite:

:magnemite:
B Rank -> C Rank

Magnemite is usable, but hard to justify with better Normal resists in the Meta. Even with Sub it doesn't have the same threat level as Rhyhorn, nor does it have anything close to the Bulk of Lileep. This just leads to it having a bad mid ground betwee them. A Toxic Immunity is nice, but otherwise it's just outclassed by the two. And while its typing gives it a plethora of resistances, it also gives it bad weaknesses to a lot of common moves in the Meta.

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 221-260 (87 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Aipom Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 147-174 (57.8 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aipom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 294-346 (115.7 - 136.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Aipom: 158-187 (62.6 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Elekid Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite: 170-200 (66.9 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Magnemite Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Elekid: 79-93 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Taillow Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 363-428 (142.9 - 168.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Cyndaquil Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite: 389-458 (153.1 - 180.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Growlithe Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite: 425-500 (167.3 - 196.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As shown with these Calcs, while Mangemite has good bulk, common Metagame attacks do a ton of damage. Most notably it is KOed or nearly KOed by the Normal Spammer's coverage. While Rhyhorn and Lileep don't enjoy Aipom and Taillow's coverage, and Rhyhorn is hardly the holder of a great defensive typing, neither are usually KOed or chipped beyond repair by the Pokemon they're meant to check.

252+ Atk Choice Band Taillow Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rhyhorn: 154-182 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Taillow Steel Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rhyhorn: 154-182 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Taillow Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 62-74 (18.4 - 22%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Taillow Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 125-148 (37.2 - 44%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rhyhorn: 171-202 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Aipom Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 141-166 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aipom Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 95-112 (28.2 - 33.3%) -- 91% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aipom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 187-220 (55.6 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aipom Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rhyhorn: 115-136 (38.2 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aipom Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rhyhorn: 229-270 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Excluding Aipom Focus Punch, Rhyhorn and Lileep are far from the edge of death here. In fact for many of these, Lileep can actually Recover and slowly beat down the oppodent.

Thus Magnemite is simply just not that great of a Pokemon, and isn't good enough to be B Rank. I feel C Rank is good enough for it as while it is a flawed Pokemon, it does have a few things over Rhyhorn and Lileep, namely a Toxic Immunity and good Coverage, and on a game-to-game basis usually does its job decently, though usually not as good as the former 2. A team using Magnemite must take advantage its few perks over Rhyhorn and Lileep, which makes it much harder to fit and thus far less viable.

Now, lets get onto weather

Rain/Seaking:

:rs/Seaking:

Thanks to Seaking, Rain is broken, theres just no other way to to spin it in my opinion. Under Rain, every single Pokemon in the tier is 2HKOed by the Fish, with the only exception I can find being Sp Def Chinchou, at least without significant Attack investment

252+ SpA Mystic Water Seaking Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chinchou in Rain: 114-135 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Seaking Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chinchou: 110-130 (31 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Seaking Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chinchou: 170-200 (48 - 56.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

104 Atk Seaking Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chinchou: 188-222 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Aside from this one set on this one Pokemon, who lacks reliable recovery and cannot OHKO Seaking, Seaking is unwallable in Rain. And unlike Horsea, who struggles with being OHKOed by almost anything it cannot OHKO in return, Seaking has fantastic Bulk for the tier, making it almost always require multiple Pokemon to bring down. Castform could try some weather shenanigans, but it remains tense.

252+ SpA Seaking Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Castform-Rainy: 144-170 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Castform-Rainy Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Seaking: 231-272 (76.7 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Mystic Water Seaking Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lileep in Rain: 178-210 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Seaking: 107-126 (35.5 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Lileep Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Seaking: 124-146 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Mystic Water Seaking Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grimer: 164-193 (45 - 53%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO

0 Atk Grimer Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Seaking: 128-151 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Seaking Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bayleef: 175-206 (54 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Bayleef Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Seaking: 127-150 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

4 Atk Dustox Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Seaking: 90-106 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- 17.7% chance to 3HKO

These are our absolute best Special Walls, and they all fall or need to be unreasonably lucky. I personally believe Ice Beam is the superior Choice, as it doesn't cut into your Bulk, and you already destory 99% of the tier with your coverage. Beating SpDef Chinchou just isn't worth it when you have a ton of easy answers, such as many of the Pokemon I just listed.

Otherwise, Seaking can set up on almost the entire tier, and Outspeed in Rain and KO them.

252 Atk Choice Band Taillow Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Seaking: 244-288 (81 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Seaking Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Taillow: 355-418 (160.6 - 189.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Delibird Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Seaking: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (Usually + Speed, can't OHKO then)

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Delibird Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Seaking: 201-237 (66.7 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Mystic Water Seaking Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Delibird in Rain: 423-498 (183.1 - 215.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Rhyhorn Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Seaking: 192-226 (63.7 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Do I need to calc Hydro Pump vs. Rhyhorn?)

252+ SpA Mystic Water Seaking Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Delcatty in Rain: 232-274 (67.4 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Elekid Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Seaking: 241-284 (80 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Mystic Water Seaking Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Elekid in Rain: 362-427 (156.7 - 184.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Seaking Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bagon: 355-418 (153.6 - 180.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This is hardly a full list of every offensive threat in the tier, but even uninvested Seaking can tank almost everything the tier can throw at it. Even Elekid is set up on.

The only other Pokemon worth mentioning is Sunflora, who can usually take a hit from Seaking, set up Sunny Day, and KO:

252+ SpA Sunflora Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Seaking: 445-524 (147.8 - 174%) -- guaranteed OHKO


252+ SpA Seaking Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sunflora: 168-198 (57.7 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Seaking Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sunflora: 334-394 (114.7 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Seaking Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sunflora: 260-306 (89.3 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

However, Sunflora is very niche, has to pray it's not running Megahorn, and is set up fodder for other threats in the tier. I'll get more into why later.

And this isn't even accounting for its partners. As I stated in my Horsea nom, Voltorb is very able to set up rain, thus letting Seaking start its shenanigans at full health. And Horsea itself makes a great partner, as it can easily pick up should Seaking falls. Horsea actually has a slightly higher Special Attack, but as far as I know this doesn't make any major MU difference. The duo have a stranglehold on teambuilding. Every team needs to have several Pokemon capable of taking a Rain-Boosted Hydro Pump just so they don't get mowed down by Rain. Even if we can stall out Rain once by sacking a good portion of our team, theres still the next Rain Abuser to pick up their slack.

The way I see it is that there are 2 options. ADV ZU could ban Rain as a whole but I feel that would be overkill. Rain isn't the issue, we see that from Horsea. Horsea is good, but dependant on support, and is easily OHKOed making it's sweeps easier to stop. It's Seaking's huge bulk for such a huge offensive threat in the tier that really makes Rain overpowered. Without it, once Voltorb falls Rain would be far harder to set up. But alas, Seaking is a fat fish, so we have to deal with it.

On the topic of a Seaking nom, I am unsure where to put it. Rain can decimate teams on its own, but I am unsure to what degree Seaking relies on Voltorb and Horsea. I'm saying :seaking: -> to S for now, but that could change in the future.

Sun:

:rs/Sunflora:

Sun is an interesting playstyle. On it's own, Sun can actually beat Seaking through Sunflora, unless Seaking invests in Megahorn, as I showed earlier. In general, our main Sun Sweepers would be Sunflora, Nuzleaf and Exeggcute. While not having Rain-levels of ease to set up, Onix can make Sun set up easy. Castform can act as both a setter and as a breaker in Sun. However, while this all sounds good on paper, Sun fundamentally in this metagame is very flawed and has serious obstacles to overcome if it wants to be on the same level as Rain.

Fire Types simply annoy Sun to no end. Growlithe and Cyndaquil easily take most Sun's Attacks, and retaliate with their own Boosted STABs. They can even set up with Agility and Sub vs Sun.

252+ SpA Growlithe Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sunflora in Sun: 494-582 (169.7 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Growlithe Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sunflora: 331-390 (113.7 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Sunflora Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Growlithe: 160-189 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (assuming Sun)

252+ SpA Nuzleaf Hidden Power Dark vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Growlithe: 133-157 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Growlithe Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nuzleaf: 583-686 (207.4 - 244.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 4 Atk Silk Scarf Nuzleaf Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Growlithe: 367-432 (146.2 - 172.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Growlithe Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Exeggcute: 491-578 (188.1 - 221.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Exeggcute Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Growlithe: 171-202 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 4 Atk Exeggcute Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Growlithe: 222-262 (88.4 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Cyndaquil Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sunflora: 277-326 (95.1 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Sunflora Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cyndaquil: 160-189 (73 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Nuzleaf Hidden Power Dark vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cyndaquil: 133-157 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Silk Scarf Nuzleaf Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cyndaquil: 568-669 (259.3 - 305.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Cyndaquil Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Exeggcute: 450-530 (172.4 - 203%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4 Atk Exeggcute Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cyndaquil: 343-404 (156.6 - 184.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As shown, these Fire Types can tank all these Sun Attacks, and relatiate with their STABs. And swicthing out isn't an option. Very few Pokemon in this tier can take a Boosted Fire Blast more than once. Boom is an option, but it's very risky as you could end up wasting one of your Sun Sweepers, as it'd be a very perdictable play. So not only do you lose momentum and burn Sun Turns, you're also very likely also lose another Pokemon!

Another issue is with Grimer. Sunflora is turned into set up fodder by Grimer. Nuzleaf is forced to go boom as well. Exeggcute can 2HKO Grimer, but the fact of the matter is that Grimer forces the most essential Sun Abuser out, and wastes precious Sun Turns. And these Grass Types are hardly looking forward to coming into a Sludge Bomb.

252+ SpA Sunflora Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grimer in Sun: 117-138 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 94.7% chance to 3HKO

0 Atk Grimer Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sunflora: 261-308 (89.6 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Nuzleaf Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grimer: 127-150 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Grimer Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nuzleaf: 328-386 (116.7 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Nuzleaf Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Grimer: 460-542 (126.3 - 148.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Exeggcute Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grimer: 215-254 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Exeggcute Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Grimer: 308-363 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Grimer Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggcute: 195-230 (74.7 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Note however that Rhyhorn does turn Grimer into set up fodder, and even Onix can beat it, but this would be another obvious play that can be exploited, and again, you're wasting precious Sun Turns. However, despite all of this, Castform is the silver lining here, as aside from Flash Fire Growlithe, it can overpower many of Sun's most problematic oppodents.

252+ SpA Castform-Sunny Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grimer in Sun: 232-274 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Grimer Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Castform: 109-129 (38.7 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Castform-Sunny Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Growlithe in Sun: 186-219 (74.1 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Growlithe Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Castform-Sunny in Sun: 144-170 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Castform Outspeeds)

252+ SpA Castform-Sunny Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cyndaquil in Sun: 186-219 (84.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Cyndaquil Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Castform-Sunny in Sun: 131-155 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

Castform has it's issues, notably that it's not too hard to outspeed and KO, however it does crush Sun's few defensive checks.

All in all, Sun has it's problems, but it does have potential. It falls flat compared to Rain, as Seaking combines the speed of the Chlorophyll users and the Power of Castform. However, Sun's unique traits does give it a niche, and I'm sure theres an abundance of tech just waiting to be discovered that can solve Sun's current issues.


ADV ZU in it's current form is in an interesting state. We have powerful sweepers, but also powerful counterplay in return. It's only Rain, which in my opinion has too little counterplay, that I consider broken. Otherwise, I see a really healthy Meta with new strats just waiting to be discovered.

I'd like to know what everyone thinks of my thoughts, especially Rain and Seaking. Calling for a Ban is a big deal, so I'd like to know what the rest of the community thinks of it.

Thanks to everyone for reading my post, and I hope yall have a great day/night. Humilau Hakamo-os 4 ever.
 
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DnB

#DnB4608, its way easier on discord :>
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
great post SSJRobbieRotten, agree with most of your stuff :)

now some of mine:


Rhyhorn to S is something I agree with 100%, now that everyone uses sub (which truly is the best set btw), but i started to give it a twist in this years classic:
(Rhyhorn) @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Megahorn/Protect

Rhyhorn doesnt need a lot of speed imo, i just went with some speecreep, bc bulk is still pretty important. The important thing tho is: Rock Blast. I watched Heysup play in ADV ZU Classic and he used a lot of Substitute Spam, either with stuff like Sub + Endevour Taillow or SubPunch Ambipom. Imo, Rhydon doesnt really need Rock Slide. The birds also die to Rock Blast and all the other stuff dies to EQ/Megahorn. Rock Blast allows you to actually beat those Sub Mons, which is really important in the current meta, because people are slowly fading away from Choice Band Birds/Normals, because Rhyhorn and other Rocks are everywhere.

(Rhyhorn) @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 240 SpD / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Blast
- Megahorn/Protect
- Earthquake
- Substitute
Another use of Rhyhorn is the anti lead. Last year everyone used Snorunt to get up Spikes, then Cyndaquil came along which counters Snorunt, then people started to lead with other stuff like Ambipom. Rhydon is actually also a pretty good Anti-Lead, I gave it a lot of bulk and spdef, so it can survive stuff like Cyndaquils HP Grass, Ice Beam from Snorunt and basically everything else thats not stab Water/Grass, and still KO all of them back. Again Rock Blast, to beat SubPunch stuff.

Replay of Rock Blast Rhydon beating Sub Taillow
Replay of Spdef Lead Rhydon
another Replay of Spdef Lead Rhydon



Aron D > C
(Aron) @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Steel]
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
Aron is also really cool, people slowly shift away from Grimer, but its still something you have to be ready against. Aron and Magnemite are the only "usable" steels in this tier, but Aron also takes CB Double Edges and Aerial Aces like a champ. HP Steel is also a pretty cool stab to click against other rockers, so I think theres a decent niche for it.

Replay of CB Aron vs Grimer



Spoink UR > C

(Spoink) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 160 HP / 248 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Toxic

SadlyI never got to use this thing in action, but its the best Psychic Type in the tier, and dark types dont exist here, so Psychic is pretty much unresisted. tbh, its stats are pretty good, decent speed and although it can be hard to set up, you can oftentimes click Sub on a switch or Toxic and +1 Psychic really hurts a lot of stuff. You dont need any other coverage, so I guess Toxic is cool to hit these special walls.
Also I just remembered, theres Exeggcute (which is in D, should also be B/C lol), but they function differentely.
(oh and Natu i guess...)
(dont use Kirlia pls)

Other than that I didnt really use that much new stuff, but there is something I want to mention:
Substitute/Protect/Toxic Spam

Most mons in this tier don't really need a lot of coverage, so its really easy to slap Sub/Protect/Toxic on there. Protect got a bit worse, because CB mons aren't used that often anymore, but on my teams I ran Sub or Toxic on almost every mon, because its just always nice to click that.

Some VR changes:


Zigzagoon: A > C
I tried it, the only way you can set up is against a RestTalk user that Sleep Talks into Rest. Even with Screens, it usually still dies to most attacks and even it can set up, which again, requires a lot of setup, the Quick Attack users are still faster and can KO it and stuff like defensive Bayleef still takes a +6 ESpeed. Just too hard to make it work...


Clefairy: B > C
Good spdef wall, Wishpassing is nice, but it can't do anything else and the meta is really focused around physical attacks. Sure, it can maybe take some hits from Rain/Sun teams, but most just 2HKO anyways. Idk, it just feels very very weak compared to other walls.


Horsea: C > B/A
Strongest Rain Sweeper, Rain is still very good, should be B or even A


Sunflora: C > A
Sun is super underrated and this thing is super strong, also pretty bulky, especially now with the low Grimer usage.


Exeggcute: D > B
Super annoying mon, can be bulky or even offensive, Sleep is also always good, really good stabs


Luvdisc: UR > C
It has a nice niche as a rain counter, you Sub/Protect stall them out of their rain turns, maybe be a little annoying with Toxic. It hits like a wet noodle tho, but I think it should be mentioned. Its also super fast


Pidgeotto: UR > B/A
We used this last year, as a more bulkier variant of taillow, should be mentioned here, it even has more attack than Taillow


Nidorino: UR > C
Sludge Bomb is just a super good move, and it can even run HP Grass to hit Rhydon, devent speed also, this mon needs some love
 
RBY ZU (it exists now :puff: ) has concluded its first tour. I think the meta is extremely offensive-based, and it focuses on several centralizing Pokemon:

THE ATTACKERS
:rb/meowth:
- Slash
- Thunderbolt
- Bubble Beam
- Body Slam

Anybody who’s played this in the tour knows how absolutely monstrous this cat is - it’s basically the new Tauros. It’s one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier (only tied with Golbat and the uncommon Voltorb), has access to the excellent Slash, and sits at a nearly unresisted typing. Nothing can switch into this aside from maybe Golbat, as Rhyhorn is cleanly 2HKOed by Bubble Beam, who functions as the sole Normal resist aside from the untested Geodude. This pairs quite well with Fire Spin from Charmeleon, Clamp from Shellder, or Wrap from Tentacool, as the chip damage racks up astoundingly fast.

:rb/tentacool:
- Wrap

- Surf
- Blizzard

- Swords Dance / Rest

If Meowth is the Tauros in the tier, then Tentacool bears the legacy of Tentacruel here. Wrap is an oppressive way to get free chip damage (assuming it doesn’t miss), and a smooth base 70 speed tier to outspeed threats like Nidorino and Ivysaur. Water/Ice is seldom resisted outside of the freed Seel and Horsea, and can be extremely difficult to stop when paired with paralysis support. Swords Dance may look unusual in its move slot, but this doubles the chip damage and makes PP stalling the move a more difficult task. In the event of Tentacool being paralyzed, Rest can be run to get rid of status and be a good staller against Wrap turns.

:rb/Shellder:

- Clamp
- Surf
- Blizzard
- Rest / Explosion

Shellder forms a backbone chip core with Tentacool, possessing Clamp to better deal with Rhyhorn and Charmeleon while having the “BlizzSurf” coverage to provide nigh-unresisted coverage. Compared to Tentacool, Shellder has much more defense, enabling it to take on physical Pokemon like Rhyhorn and Doduo better, at the cost of doing worse against Charmeleon and Seel. Explosion may be considered to give Meowth or Rhyhorn that desired free switch in against opposing Rhyhorn or Golbat if its Clamp options are no longer needed.
:rb/Charmeleon:
- Fire Blast
- Slash / Swords Dance
- Fire Spin
- Counter / Seismic Toss / Body Slam

Charmeleon cements itself as a superb attacker, being the absolute best Fire-type with its splendid movepool, speed, and power. Fire Spin enables it to form a pivoting core with Tentacool and Shellder, while Slash provides excellent neutral coverage against much of the meta. Swords Dance can make it even more threatening against paralyzed teams. Counter can be a nasty reply against the Meowths spamming Slashes, having the potential to OHKO after minor chip. Seismic Toss can be useful for doing the most damage to Shellder; Body Slam’s useful paralysis chance can make Tentacool and Shellder think twice before switching in.

:rb/Nidorino:
- Blizzard
- Thunderbolt
- Bubble Beam
- Body Slam

Nidorino’s excellent coverage choices makes it a tall task to switch into, considering its has most of the means necessary to hit Pokemon like Tentacool and Rhyhorn for super effective damage. The lack of a viable STAB move and low bulk can hurt, though, and its damage output may fall a bit short at times, but it still cements itself as the premier Poison-type in RBY ZU.
THE SLEEP LEADS
:rb/ivysaur:
- Razor Leaf
- Sleep Powder
- Body Slam
- Swords Dance / Leech Seed / Toxic

:rb/gloom:
- Sleep Powder
- Stun Spore
- Double-Edge
- Swords Dance / Mega Drain / Toxic / Rest

Ivysaur and Gloom, with their solid bulk, bring together the utility as excellent sleep leads. While Ivysaur is faster, has access to the excellent Razor Leaf and Body Slam, Gloom has Stun Spore and slightly better stats to give it more consistent defensive utility throughout the match. Ivysaur tends to be more splashable on teams due to its greater offensive presence and access to Leech Seed, but nevertheless, they still bring important roles in providing both offensive and defensive support.
Paras’ access to Spore, Slash, resistance to Earthquake and higher attack than the two sleep leads may have merits, but the double (rather than single) weakness to Fire, worse bulk, and lower speed means it tends to perform worse as a status spreader.

THE TANKS
:rb/rhyhorn:
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Substitute
- Body Slam

You’d think it’d have a hard time with all the Waters and Grasses dancing around, but Rhyhorn is the premier tank in the meta thanks to its perfect STAB combo of SlideQuake and respectable physical bulk. It’s excellent at forcing out the likes of Voltorb and Charmeleon and can easily get a sub up, forcing powerful damage or even outright KOs, especially against paralyzed mons. Body Slam is all-around a useful move, and can help Rhyhorn contend against losing matchups with paralysis, such as against Ivysaur, Tentacool, and Gloom. Be wary of Shellders switching in, as Clamp prevents you from attacking even when it destroys your Sub. Rhyhorn’s key rock resistance with aformentioned great physical bulk also enables it to be a terrific Wrap staller as well.

:rb/Seel:
- Surf
- Blizzard / Ice Beam
- Body Slam
- Rest

One of Charmeleon’s least favorite foes to face. Seel distinguishes itself from Tentacool by being much bulkier physically while still having strong special defense. Body Slam helps fellow teammates like Rhyhorn and Meowth take advantage of paralysis, and Rest enables it to be a much better status and Wrap absorber. Should titans like Meowth be eliminated, it can even go for freeze wars to try to freeze opposing Seels and Tentacool.

:rb/golbat:
- Confuse Ray
- Screech
- Double-Edge
- Mega Drain / Substitute

Golbat has phenomenal stats in the tier, tying with Meowth for second-fastest Pokemon in the tier while faring very well with high Attack and good bulk. Confuse Ray disrupts offensive Pokemon like Meowth, Shellder and Tentacool from beginning to sweep, while Screech makes it even more difficult to withstand its hurtful Double-Edges. Mega Drain can deny Rhyhorn switch-in opportunities and provide itself with much-needed recovery, while Substitute makes it even harder to break through without Voltorb or Clefairy’s paralysis with Thunder Wave.

And here’s the data for RBY ZU’s first tour:

USAGE

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Meowth             |    9 |  90.00% |  55.56% |
| 1    | Rhyhorn            |    9 |  90.00% |  55.56% |
| 3    | Ivysaur            |    7 |  70.00% |  71.43% |
| 3    | Charmeleon         |    7 |  70.00% |  57.14% |
| 5    | Tentacool          |    6 |  60.00% |  66.67% |
| 6    | Nidorino           |    4 |  40.00% |  75.00% |
| 6    | Golbat             |    4 |  40.00% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Psyduck            |    3 |  30.00% |  33.33% |
| 9    | Gloom              |    2 |  20.00% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Grimer             |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 10   | Shellder           |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 10   | Seel               |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 10   | Beedrill           |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 10   | Geodude            |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 10   | Clefairy           |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 10   | Voltorb            |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 10   | Squirtle           |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 10   | Krabby             |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
LEADS:Ivysaur:
Code:
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Leads                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Tentacool               |    2 |  20.00% | 100.00% |
| 1    | Ivysaur                 |    2 |  20.00% |  50.00% |
| 1    | Gloom                   |    2 |  20.00% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Golbat                  |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 4    | Grimer                  |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 4    | Clefairy                |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 4    | Voltorb                 |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |

Keep an eye out for more RBY ZU tech in the future!









(also, hitmonchan still bad)
 
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Louna

Louna#9589
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
i've liked a lot Tentacool as a lead, it has been great to force a positive situation where you get your sleep before the opponent or just better positioning early in the match, basically you just wrap if its a sleeper lead, go to your charmeleon which forces chip on tentacool or w/e other water comes in, if its a slower water than Ivysaur/Gloom you have your sleep powder for free.
only bad lead match up for tentacool i could see might be golbat/voltorb which are a free turn for big rhyhorn since golbat wont ever click mega drain t1 against a potential blizzard from tentacool
 
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So as an old gen enthusiast I thought I would make a post about potential sets for every RBY ZU mon(that I remember being ZU) that is viable / has a niche imo and also discuss a bit(FOR EVOLVING THE META ASAP)
In alphabetical order:
:rb/Beedrill:
Beedrill
Ability: None
- Swords Dance
- Double-Edge/Hyper Beam
- Agility/Twineedle
- Mega Drain
Dual dance can be used as per convenience for powerhouse cleaning . Mega drain lets you hit rhyhorn. Twineedle messes sleep leads. Overall a decent set up sweeper or breaker that speed tie doduo.
:rb/Charmeleon:
Charmeleon
Ability: None
- Counter/Swords Dance
- Fire Spin
- Fire Blast
- Body Slam
Last three moves are standard as trap, nuke and para/tenta ans. Definitely A tier with outspeed on beedrill doduo and tentacool.
:rb/Clefairy:
Clefairy
Ability: None
- Blizzard
- Fire Blast
- Thunder
- Body Slam
it feels like a decent tank. Not something I would heavily recommend but 218 spa with fire + bolt beam certainly does a dent. C tier imo.
:rb/Doduo:
Doduo
Ability: None
- Double-Edge
- Drill Peck
- Toxic
- Substitute
I have kind of mixed feeling about this. Great atk stat with strong stab but walled by rhyhorn, forcing it to be end game cleaner, but not very spectacular speed + no quick attack are sad. I added sub tox specifically for rhyhorn.
:rb/Ekans:
Ekans
Ability: None
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Serious Nature
- Earthquake
- Mega Drain
- Rock Slide
- Glare
While not outstanding this snak is still pretty decent and pretty underrated. it has Earthquake for tentacool, charmeleon ; Mega Drain for rhyhorn, shellder ; Rock Slide is mostly for paraflinch but also hits golbat. C tier
:rb/Gloom:
Gloom
Ability: None
- Sleep Powder
- Double-Edge
- Stun Spore
- Mega Drain
I don't see it to be better than ivy offensively but overall better bulk makes it a better tank.
:rb/Golbat:
Golbat
Ability: None
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Serious Nature
- Confuse Ray
- Mega Drain/Substitute
- Screech/Substitute
- Double-Edge
speed tie with meowth + tankin its hits along with confusion , -2 def de and mega drain for rhyhorn definitely make it one of the top mons imo.
:rb/Hitmonchan:
Hitmonchan (M)
Ability: None
- Submission
- Double-Edge
- Body Slam
- Counter
105 base atk stat and outspeed on doduo speed is really handy. Submission as the only consistent stab kind of holds it back but decent defense and brute strength make it a great revenge killer / end game cleaner imo.
:rb/Ivysaur:
Ivysaur
Ability: None
- Sleep Powder
- Razor Leaf
- Body Slam
- Swords Dance

:rb/Ivysaur:
Ivysaur
Ability: None
- Sleep Powder
- Body Slam
- Growth
- Mega Drain
Not much to say here. Best grass type we have ngl.
:rb/Krabby:
Krabby
Ability: None
- Body Slam
- Swords Dance
- Surf
- Double-Edge
Is heavily dependent on paralysis support and has no real coverage except a weak Surf for rhyhorn. I don't think its that great mostly cuz low bulk and speed.
:rb/Magnemite:
Magnemite
Ability: None
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
- Thunder Wave
- Substitute
Our electric types are sad because their only coverage for rhyhorn is de/explosion/sub tox.
:rb/Meowth:
Meowth
Ability: None
- Slash
- Body Slam
- Bubble Beam
- Thunderbolt
Without a doubt the best, in fact broken mon of the tier with nearly nothing switching in on it.
:rb/Nidorino:
Nidorino (M)
Ability: None
- Bubble Beam
- Body Slam
- Thunder
- Blizzard
Another underrated / unexplored mon(even in gsc) with great potential in an okayish speed and decent spa to back the coverage.
:rb/Psyduck:
Psyduck
Ability: None
- Blizzard
- Hydro Pump
- Amnesia
- Body Slam
Not a great speed tier but amnesia+ bslam with perfect coverage make it a decent setup sweeper.
:rb/Rhyhorn:
Rhyhorn
Ability: None
- Substitute
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Body Slam
One of the best and most centralizing mon of the tier imo. Its the premier physical wall and forces mons to run grass / water coverage on physical mons. A tier and almost compulsory.
:rb/Seel:
Seel
Ability: None
- Blizzard
- Surf
- Body Slam
- Headbutt
Between physically bulky Shellder and specially bulky Tentacool, Seel carves a niche for itself by being more overall bulky and potential paraflinch. B tier
:rb/Shellder:
Shellder
Ability: None
- Clamp
- Explosion
- Blizzard
- Surf
What do you do if you want a defensive Tentacool? You push and pack it inside a shell ofc. Yeah that's pretty much it. B/C tier imo.
:rb/Tentacool:
Tentacool
Ability: None
- Hydro Pump
- Blizzard
- Wrap
- Toxic
With decent speed, great sp bulk and amazin coveage + wrap, its totally one of the staples. A tier imo.
:rb/Voltorb:
Voltorb
Ability: None
- Thunderbolt
- Explosion
- Substitute
- Toxic

In conclusion,
>Meowth is the best mon and should definitely be on the team
>Rhyhorn is the most centralizing mon and almost compulsory on the team
>Rest is baaaddd
>Electric types aren't too bad but require lot of team support to finish off rhyhorn
>Great diversity and coverage for water types

I am sure I missed some mons so I will add them as and when I find them.
 
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Hey guys, how's everyone doing?
Few announcements regarding ADV, GSC and their resources.
-The GSC and ADV councils will be doing a slate to update the Viability Rankings and we will be taking nominations that happen in the next 48 hours. After that we will lock and update the resources.
-The GSC council acknowledges the impact Poliwag has on the metagame and is planning a suspect for it in the near future, so stay tuned. We know its an inconsistent threat but if it packs the right Hidden Power it can just auto wins certain matchups with little support. Personally, I like what it brings to the metagame as a "high risk high reward" kind of threat since it lacks defensive utility and usually only has 1 shot to do its thing before it dies, but I also wanna see a metagame without it due to how punishing it can be with the right set.
- GSC also has a small role compendium now which you can check already in the GSC ZU's original post!

Here are some of my nominations for GSC

:gs/snubbull: - UR to B- : Heal Bell is nice but i've seen very rare scenarios where I want to waste a turn clicking it instead of using something else. Overall its a niche but not a super valuable one hence why I'm suggesting a B- rank for now. Offensively it's outclassed by Teddiursa

:gs/togetic: - S to A+ : Don't get me wrong, Togetic is still king. But it just doesn't have the versatility and threat level of stuff like Croconaw and Magby to justify its placement at the very top of the metagame. Its multiple sets are still threatening but its not as defining as the other 2 mons.

:gs/magby: - A+ to S : Magby is the best offensive Pokemon in the metagame and it can break pretty much any check that isn't Dratini with the Fire Blast/Thunder Punch/HP water coverage if it makes the correct calls in game. All teams have to prep for this and its imo the 2nd most defining mon in the metagame after Croconaw.

:gs/bayleef: - A+ to A : Bayleef is a good mon and the best Ground-type check in the metagame but its way too passive and lets powerful breakers like Magby and Smoochum in, while also struggling to make progress in matchups where Koffing is in. I think its threat level is more in line with the A ranks.

:gs/onix: - A to B+ : Its too hard to actually make any progress with Onix in a tier where Croconaw and Bayleef are good. Its attack is just way too low to actually try to pressure its checks unlike Sandshrew does and its ability to check Togetic is not as needed when other mons like Croconaw and Koffing can do the same while doing more overall.

:gs/parasect: - B+ to B : This is too hard to use, every team has like 3 checks to this naturally and can easily force it out or ohko it. Magby, Growlithe, Smoochum, Weepinbell, Koffing, Grimer, Togetic, Nidorino... It's way too inconsistent to be on B+

:gs/growlithe: - B to B+ : Has some nice role compression in checking Magby/Smoochum/Grasses in the same slot and overall is way more splashable than anything on B, so this should rise

:gs/yanma: - B to B- : Not gonna lie, I want this to be good but it just doesnt have the tools to do the revenge killing it wants to do unlike Diglett. It lacks the power to actually revenge the stuff it wants to and usually resorts to endure/reversal sets to do any meaningful damage. This is just really hard to use. Its inability to touch Poison-types like Koffing, Grimer and Nidorino also hurts it a lot.

:gs/mankey: - B- to C : Fighting types suck, even if this is the best one it still struggles to do anything without massive support and should be on C ranks.

:gs/teddiursa: - C+ to B : Teddiursa is a pretty scary wincon and hits very hard after 1 single Curse, 2-shotting the entire metagame with its coverage after a single boost, being much better than anything on its rank and on B-. It does have its flaws though.

See ya.
 
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The GSC ZU Viability Ranking update has concluded and you can see the votes from each member in this link

Some important changes happened, like the addition of two new S ranks in Magby and Poliwag. We also discussed the creation of a S- rank for Poliwag and Togetic since they're a bit below Croconaw and Magby but we ended up voting against it and just kept them all in S for now. Bayleef also dropped a subrank due to its passiveness and how it tends to invite big threats like Smoochum and Magby into the field. We also ranked Snubbull and moved other Pokemon around. Here are the full changes

Rises
:magby: A+ to S
:poliwag: A+ to S
:growlithe: B to B+
:teddiursa: C+ to B
:snubbull: UR to B-
:ekans: UR to C-

Drops
:bayleef: A+ to A
:onix: A to A-
:parasect: B+ to B
:yanma: B to B-
:mankey: B- to C+

Check the original post for the full VRs and our brand new Role Compendium!
 

pac

Pay 5000, gg?
is a Contributor to Smogon
Magby.png

As requested by File 13, I would like to share a spreadsheet I made for the GSC ZU metagame.

This spreadsheet shows the damage calcs for a Magby's Fire Blast, boosted underneath both Charcoal and Sunny Day, versus every Pokemon ranked on the GSC ZU Viability Rankings. Its very potent, and its relevant for the Sunny Day archetype of teams that are quite viable in the tier. Only like 5 Pokemon can survive two Fire Blasts at this point, and with critical hits or a third Fire Blast that number becomes slim to none outside of like Kabuto.
 

Aaronboyer

Be yourself an angel of kindness
is a Contributor to Smogon
It's way overdue, but we've finally finished working on the most recent ADV ZU Viability Rankings and these are the results which you can find on the spreadsheet here. We added SSJRobbieRotten to the ADV Council; Congratulations! We had decided that the VR was in need of much reworking, and so everything was voted on. We've also decided to have subranks for our A, B, and C ranks, and we hope that by splitting the ranks with pluses and minuses, the VR will begin to reflect which Pokemon are more viable within its own rank.

Aipom UR -> S
Rhyhorn A -> S
Seaking A -> A+
Exeggcute D -> A
Grimer B -> A
Growlithe B -> A
Lileep B -> A
Pidgeotto UR -> A
Snorunt B -> A
Cyndaquil UR -> B
Horsea C -> B
Sunflora C -> B
Voltorb C -> B
Croconaw C -> C+
Aron D -> C
Cacnea D -> C
Kabuto D -> C
Luvdisc UR -> C
Meowth D -> C
Nidorino UR -> C
Nuzleaf D -> C
Parasect D -> C
Spoink UR -> C
Illumise D -> C-
Skiploom D -> C-

I'm not going go through every rise or drop been here are some of the highlights: After the most recent shift, Aipom has become a defining part of ADV ZU with its blazingly fast base 85 Speed and strong Choice Banded Attacks. Substitute + Focus Punch sets have also started to pop up to lure Rhyhorn in and potentially shield itself from priority attackers such as Taillow. Rhyhorn has arisen as the metagame's best Normal check, not being passive like Nosepass or Magnemite. It's also customizable with Substitute, Swords Dance, Megahorn, Rock Blast instead of Rock Slide, or just dishing out Choice Banded attacks. Several Pokemon also rose due to the influx of sun- and rain-based hyper offensive teams, including Seaking, Horsea, Voltorb, Sunflora, and Nuzleaf. Lastly, Snorunt and Cyndaquil have risen or been ranked as their function as a dedicated lead/counter-lead to set or prevent opposing Spikes early on have made them quite valuable to the majority of ADV ZU teams which tend to be quite offensive and have a hard time fitting on a Rapid Spin user other than Delibird.

Delibird S -> A+
Butterfree A -> A-
Delcatty A -> B+
Nosepass A -> B+
Staryu -> A -> B+
Zigzagoon A -> B-
Clefairy B -> C+
Natu B -> C+
Mankey B -> C
Poliwag C -> C-
Kirlia D -> UR
Makuhita D -> UR
Marill D -> UR
Shuppet D -> UR

On the flip-side, many of these drops are just from the VR being so outdated. No one was seriously considering Makuhita or Marill for their teams, Kirlia wasn't fast or bulky enough for Memento to be usable while Psychic hit like a wet piece of paper, and Shuppet, while hyped during the Zigzagoon suspect test, loses to Zigzagoon and the wide majority of Normal-types one-on-one, and can't even block the most common Rapid Spinner, Delibird, from removing Spikes without an Ice Beam or Aerial Ace coming its way. Zigzagoon, who was once considered to be the single scariest Pokemon in the metagame and was even suspect tested, has fallen so far from grace. Setting up with Belly Drum is so hard with its poor bulk, even with screen support from Ledian. Its middling Speed tier means it gets picked off by almost every opposing priority user. Perhaps the most shocking development, however, is Delibird dropping from S to A+. People have begun to adapt to Delibird's presence with the uptick in usage of Pokemon such as Growlithe and Chinchou. Choice Band sets make Delibird very prediction reliant, while special sets tend to over-rely on Ice Beam to pick up KOs. Sun and Rain teams popping back up are also not great for Delibird as it gets mowed down by Sunflora's Hidden Power Fire or Seaking's Hydro Pump, and so the drop to A+ is warranted.

I am in the process of editing the ADV ZU OP right now, and will edit here when its complete!
EDIT: DONE
 
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Hey all, I just wanted to make a post talking about my thought processes building and playing DPP ZU this ZUPL. First, I want to thank SBPC for drafting me, I know he originally planned for me to be playing SS but I'm really glad I was able to play DPP, I had a great time and I really enjoy this tier. Secondly, I want to thank 275p and also thebtboy for testing with me and helping me build (for btboy just the last week lmao). Your guys' help was so amazing and we played so many test games. You all went out of your way to really help me get comfortable in the tier, especially after my first week playing it where I kinda crashed and burned against Spacial. Now onto the teams :) click on the sprites for the paste

Week 3 vs SpacialRendezvous

When SBPC asked me to step into DPP, I wanted to start with a more "basic" build. My general approach to building is to go with more safe options, and through my (more limited) experience in DPP ZU, I knew this sort of build was pretty consistent. The idea was to use TSpikes + mons that force switches + a stallbreaker. Persian is an all-around very solid Pokemon, and Beedrill is the go-to TSpikes user of the tier. Lairon is a great offensive Stealth Rock user that baits in common physical walls such as Tangela that I want to poison. Magmar is by far the best offensive Pokemon in the tier, and with Sub, it's able to wallbreak very effectively. Walrein was the Lapras check, and with TSpikes up, it can roll through teams very easily due to its solid bulk + access to Super Fang.

The game against Spacial did not go very well lmao. I think it was in part due to my inexperience in the tier as well as having a pretty bad MU against RestTalk Swalot. I didn't have any great ways to make progress against his team, especially since I threw out Tangela pretty early.

Week 4 vs The Strap

For this team, I wanted to bring something much more offensive as that sort of style fits the way I like to play a lot more. I took inspiration from Heysup's lead Omanyte, and decided to bring that as the lead. 275p had brought Luxray a few times in our previous test matches, and I thought that EBelt/LO were really cool sets so I decided to build around it for this week. Gastly is the designated spinblocker (although it's bad at it) and I think Scarf is a pretty effective set on it due to its ability to outspeed stuff like Persian and soft-check it. I felt the team's Magmar matchup was still pretty weak, so I added Scarf Kingler, which in general is a very solid Pokemon on HO and Balance alike. Next, I wanted a water-resist, so Grovyle was added due to its effective breaking abilities with SubSeed, while Lairon was added last as a Normal-resist.

The game went about as well as I would have liked. Purusit Slaking was pretty crappy for me, but outside of that I felt I had a pretty solid matchup. I played it pretty cleanly, and despite nearly choking at the end, I thought it was an all-around solid game for me.

Week 5 vs RawMelon

I don't really remember if I had a clear idea for this team lol, I really liked Butterfree from my previous week's test games with 275p, so I knew I wanted to use that as a lead. Needing another Stealth Rock user that could also take on Magmar, I had the idea of SpDef Solrock, which is able to switch in at least once and threaten it out. I knew I needed a grounded-Poison due to TSpikes being absolutely spammed everywhere, so Scarf Arbok was added in addition to it also being solid speed-control. Magmar is broken, so I added it. It threatened common steels as well as being able to just sit in on teams FOREVER with Leftovers + Protect. Bibarel is here as a Lapras check as well as being a solid late-game sweeper, and Mawile was added as a Normal-resist as well as possible SD passer to Arbok or Bibarel (due to Simple being done at dmg calculation).

This was by far my most complete game of the season honestly. I had a great matchup (outside of Butterfree getting owned), and I thought I played great outside of perhaps getting too passive and clicking Protect against Tangela with my Magmar.

Semifinals vs neomon

These last two weeks I really stopped trying to be super original with my building LOL. I had this more fat team I was working on but on Friday I realized it was not very good and I didn't enjoy piloting it, so I went back to what I had been using the previous weeks and created this Bibarel HO. Oran had been preaching the good word about lead Bibarel, so I decided to try and use it. It's a pretty solid lead, due to it having access to Taunt + Rocks, and it ended up working out in my game. I wanted to change up my Magmar set, so I went with LO Mixed due to it making progress against stuff that's annoying for the rest of my team, such as Quagsire and Kecleon (which is fine mostly but can trouble Luxray). The main core of this team (which I didn't reveal at all actually LOL) was Kingler + DD Lapras, which are able to wear each others checks down so at least one of them should (theoretically) be able to clean.

I don't have a lot to say about this game. The t2 crit was really unfortunate for Neomon and really swung the game in my favor immediately. Luxray put in some serious mid-game work, opening up for the Mawile sweep that was basically confirmed once I knew Arbok wasn't Banded. I wanted to try a faster SD Mawile on this team with Brick Break in order to outspeed Probo/Lairon, which came in handy this game since their Walrein wasn't offensive.

Finals vs Heysup

This was the most risky team I built all tour, and one that unfortunately didn't work out. I was trying to think of ways I could branch out and try something new, but I have mega tour anxiety for important games so I stuck with a build that I had used before and was more comfortable with. SpDef Solrock was again my SR user, this time with Custap to make the team more offensive. I brought back a similar double-Water core, this time with Bibarel > DD Lapras as it was a better Lapras check. Grovyle was the opposing offensive-check for Water-types, and I went with a not-standard (afaik) LO mixed set in order to make better progress against Fire and Steel-types. I'd really recommend people try this set if they want more immediate firepower than SubSeed. Arbok again rounded out the team as its grounded-Poison, providing secondary speed control as well with its Scarf.

Shedinja is definitely the sore thumb of this team's composition. The idea came to me after watching a BKC video (great content btw) and he was talking about how people started leading Ho-Oh in DPP Ubers due to it being more effective before it can take SR damage, especially considering how bad that tiers hazard control is. Similar to DPP Ubers, DPP ZU has absolutely garbage removal so I wanted to try out Shedinja as an anti-lead. Originally, this team had lead Girafarig but I was really struggling to handle SD Sucker Raticate and I didn't want to go in the direction of my other teams and slap a Mawile on here. Shedinja is able to stall out Suker Punch Raticate through burn damage, and is also able to effectively neuter many DPP ZU leads depending on the coverage they carry. You're also able to scout for any possible coverage with your Focus Sash. The set is pretty self-explanatory, with SD/Bug STAB/prio/filler. Dig was chosen so Shedinja can make progress against stuff like Lairon/Probopass without having to switch out due to my lack of hazard removal.

I don't want to touch on the game too much since I'm still pretty upset that I lost, but I'm glad that I was able to keep it close against a player that's as good as Heysup. He did great this tournament and all of his builds were super interesting, and definitely inspired me through each week.

~other teams i built but did not use due to their questionable quality or general memey-ness~ click on sprites for paste
:solrock: :tangela: :weepinbell: :magmar: :chimecho: :kecleon:
:lunatone: :huntail: :horsea: :lombre: :chimecho: :kecleon:
:solrock: :chimecho: :banette: :clamperl: :lapras: :swalot:
:banette: :probopass: :quagsire: :swalot: :fearow: :slaking:
 
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Wanted to get some DPP VR discussion going because I really fell in love with the format during ZUPL.

:dp/arbok:
Arbok (B+) up to A/A+

Arbok is one of the best offensive Pokemon in DPP right now. Its diverse movepool gives it a lot of set versatility, with Choice Band/Scarf, Sub + 3 Attacks, AoA, and Glare + 3 Attacks, all being viable. Its fourth moveslot is highly customizable and can be used to spread status, cripple walls with Switcheroo, or Pursuit trap. It has favorable matchups against some of the tier's most common walls - Tangela, Probopass, and Kecleon - and can be tough to handle defensively once it's in. It also provides some defensive utility, soaking up Toxic Spikes and soft checking threats like Persian, Banette, and opposing Arbok thanks to its decent bulk (60/69/79) and access to Intimidate. This Pokemon is pretty splashable on offense and balance teams alike, and it doesn't require a lot of support to do its job. It is limited by its speed tier (80) and some unfavorable matchups against random stuff like Swalot, but Arbok is consistent and offers too much to be a B-ranked Pokemon.

:dp/kecleon:
Kecleon (A+) down to A/A-

I've talked to several people who think Kecleon is overrated, but I don't think this Pokemon should drop too far. I'm not sold on its role compression - Normal resists are a cornerstone of teambuilding and provide you with hazard support, anyway - but the ability to counter top threats like Lapras and Banette (when equipped with Shadow Claw) is still valuable. That said, Color Change is abusable and Kecleon is pretty passive in general, losing to Substitute users and Pokemon it otherwise can't status. It needs support to mitigate these flaws, but it's still a solid pick and should be kept somewhere in the A ranks.

:dp/beedrill:
Beedrill (B) up to B+

I absolutely love Beedrill's fit on offensive teams. Obviously, it prevents you from auto-losing to Toxic Spikes since it's a grounded Poison, but Beedrill distinguishes itself from more offensive Poison-types through its slow pivoting. Scarf Grovyle and SubSeed Grovyle are both extremely annoying for offensive teams, and Beedrill is consistently able to negate Grovyle and create momentum off of it. Another key interaction is Beedrill's ability to lure Rock- and Fire-types for offensive Water-types, which are really good right now. Its weakness to Stealth Rock, generally poor typing, and pitiful physical bulk limit it, but Beedrill has a really valuable niche as a slow pivot in an offensively-inclined metagame. As an aside, I've begun opting for Sitrus Berry over Black Sludge on Beedrill. I've found that the infusion of HP is more valuable than the passive recovery since you're going to be clicking U-turn most of the time.

:dp/bibarel:
Bibarel (B-) up to B/B+

beauts really sold me on the effectiveness of Bibarel throughout the course of ZUPL. A speed tier of 71 and access to Taunt and Stealth Rock make it a pretty nice lead, but its Curse sweeper set is also really threatening. The beaver can't set up on as much as it would like to - Magmar packs Focus Blast and a lot of Rock-types carry Explosion, for example - but it's really hard to stop once it's notched a boost. +2 Return is a roll to kill Tangela after Stealth Rock, and +2 Quick Attack dispatches faster threats like Grovyle.
+2 252+ Atk Simple Bibarel Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 270-318 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Simple Bibarel Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grovyle: 303-357 (125.7 - 148.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bibarel usually needs to setup in the wake of a fallen teammate, and is particularly good at exploiting fellow offensive Water-types like Kingler and Lapras. It can also fodder slower, more passive Pokemon like Omastar and Chimecho. Ultimately, Bibarel would be a lot more threatening if it had more opportunities to nab Curse boosts, but it definitely has a solid niche as a setup sweeper.

Other miscellaneous thoughts:
:pikachu: frail, awkward speed tier, and struggles to do what it wants to do (boost with Nasty Plot and break/sweep). I feel like it should drop considerably, but I admittedly gave up on it pretty quickly. Maybe others have had more success.
:solrock: neomon and I had a lot of crazy ideas during ZUPL, but my favorite was Choice Scarf Solrock. Feels really nice as an off-meta scarfer with some defensive utility. Fast boom is a great tool to have, but Baton Pass lets you act as a fast pivot and bring in some breakers to exploit typical EdgeQuake answers. Definitely recommend people giving this set a try.
:mawile: SD + 3 Attacks feels a little inconsistent with how many Pokemon are packing Substitute currently, but it can be super scary and exploits Normal-types to setup. Love its fit on offensive teams. I keep waffling on whether or not it should rise and would be interested to hear other's thoughts on it.
:walrein: super bulky and one of the few mons that has the ability to check both Magmar and Lapras. Really nice pick for bulkier comps and can be proactive with its STAB coverage and base 95 SpA.
:Swalot: I want to experiment with Swalot more. I never like seeing it come out, and Drud's win in a room tournament over yovan33321 today convinced me that I finally need to build around it. CurseTalk sets are really threatening, but they do get randomly shut down by stuff like Solrock and Flareon. Again, I need to test with it more personally, but it probably deserves to rise because of how it can just 6-0 in certain matchups.
 
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Also throwing in my hat in ORAS. Haven’t seen many noms around so:

:Bastiodon: UR -> C-
Was left outside the VR slate last time. Yes, it is passive, but it does have the niche of being able to be an annoying phazer with Roar and having some decent utility with Stealth Rock + Roar + Toxic. The gigantic defensive stats means that it can even avoid the 2HKO from super effective foes like Krokork and Simipour. Bastiodon’s nice defensive typing gives it some nice matchups against foes like Regigigas, Purugly, Klang, Swoobat, and Murkrow. From its extreme bulk + phazing, it can fit decently on hazard-stacking teams and be annoying against Defoggers like Vibrava/Dustox.
:Graveler: UR -> C-
Same thing for the case of Golem Lite Graveler. Compared to Gigalith and Lairon, two premier Stealth Rock setters, Graveler distniguishes itself by having STAB Earthquake on its attacks and Smack Down sets to lure and easily 2HKO Bronzor. These two cannot fit Smack Down in their sets very easily; Graveler is able to use STAB EdgeQuake to be annoying to switch into. Lastly, Sucker Punch enables it to KO weakened threats like Simisage and Simipour when weakened.


:Dustox: B+ -> A-
Besides having the highest usage stats (Alongside Krok) in ZUPL, Dustox is one of the premier Defoggers alongside Vibrava and provides excellent pivoting capabilities with U-turn. Shield Dust is a nifty ability to prevent freezes from the likes of frogadier and Simipour, and with the right EV support it is capable of avoiding 2 or even 3HKOes from such Pokemon before making a slow u-turn into a breaker like Electabuzz. It can also be a handy phazer or even QD sweeper, which was seen in 5gen vs Twitt’s finals match.
 
thebtboy wrote VR noms and I need something to do while I watch football so I decided I'd join the club. I basically agree with all of his noms so I'm not gonna really touch on anything he mentioned.


A- to A+
Kingler is by far the most splashable Choice Scarf user in the tier. Yeah, it gets walled by Tangela, but it isn't like Tangela is particularly hard to beat with other members of your team, and I've even experimented some with Ice Beam sets in order to take advantage of Tangela being the most common Kingler check. Kingler also works fantastically with Pokemon such as DD Ice Beam Lapras and Curse Bibarel, as both of those are able to heavily chip Tangela and really open up Kingler to put in work later in the game.


B+ to A-
I abused the heck out of Luxray this ZUPL, and I really think it's a fantastic mixed wallbreaker. Thunderbolt/HP Grass/Signal Beam is fantastic special coverage, only improved by having Superpower to pop Kecleon and Probopass. It's very difficult to switch into Luxray for any team, and I think this mon just works wonders for offensive teams that just need that instant momentum that Luxray provides. Intimidate is a fantastic bonus as well, and lets you pivot Luxray in more often. It's great, and I love it.



B- to B/B+
I don't really have much to say other than that Pursuit is an amazing move and CB Slaking, while requiring prediction, rips holes through teams. It struggles a bit against fatter teams simply because they usually have more defensive counterplay, but the tier seems to be leaning more towards offense and that's exactly what Slaking wants.


C- to C+/B-
Look, did leading this mon in ZUPL finals possibly cost me the game. Yes. HOWEVER! I really do feel that this Pokemon as a lead is fantastic in a ton of matchups. Versus hazard leads, Shedinja is able to spam SD or simply attack as most don't care any form of status. Against pivot leads such as Butterfree, you're able to sack a Pokemon to sleep (I ran this in conjunction with Scarf Sleep Talk Kingler) before pivoting Shedinja back in and clicking moves. With Dig, you're able to threaten Probopass and Lairon at +2 and Sucker Punch gives you a form of priority to threaten Normal-types as well as Magmar before it kills you. Focus Sash essentially gives you two lives, and lets Shedinja put in more work than most leads. Look past the meme, this mon as a lead is very solid. Not perfect, and it sometimes backfires, but against most teams? It's a great pick.

:octillery: W
:beedrill: W
:magmar: L
:probopass: Bad but not unplayable
:girafarig: W
:flareon: L
:banette: W (if ur jolly u outspeed basically all banette and can sucker or sd)
:gastly: W
:grovyle: W
:omanyte: W
:stantler: kinda?
:persian: W if not Bite, can still X-Scissor -> Sucker if it is
:solrock: You get brought down to Sash if they attack turn 1 but it isn't unfavorable
:abra: W
:pineco: W if not Toxic
:raticate: W if Sucker > Crunch (you can stall them out with SD) and if Crunch, you win with X-Scissor -> Sucker
:snorunt: W
:butterfree: W (if you have a sleep sack)
:bibarel: W
:kingler: W
:wailord: W if not Sub Toxic (lol)

Sets I Like That I Don't See a Lot

Magmar @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Protect
- Flamethrower
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Since hazard removal is god awful in this meta, I wanted to find a way to give Magmar some form of passive recovery, and I realized that Leftovers + Protect is a great combination to do just that. However, it doesn't just have that advantage. You're able to scout for coverage, you can scout for Custap Berry, you can dodge Persian's Fake Out and eat the following Return (if you're at high enough HP), and it gives you a way to maneuver around Slaking. This set doesn't have the power that LO does, but I do find it to be very consistent and solid.


Bibarel @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock

- Protect
- Waterfall / Return

Lead Bibarel is the best Taunt + Rocks lead in the tier. You have a great speed tier (hitting 262 with Jolly), as well as two STAB moves with pretty solid coverage meaning you aren't too passive. Bibarel is guaranteed Rocks in 99% of lead matchups and is usually able to prevent hazards against opposing hazard leads. The one issue is that you would have to run a separate Spikes user if you desired them, but in most matchups Rocks are enough.


Solrock @ Custap Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 240 SpD / 20 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Explosion / Will-o-Wisp

I don't actually know if SpDef Solrock is a thing or not, but it isn't in the set comp and I don't think I saw it at all in ZUPL so I'm just going to say it isn't. I used SpDef Solrock twice through ZUPL as a Magmar check with access to Rocks as well as Wisp/Explosion and I think it's great. You have to run SpDef if you want to switch into Magmar's HP Grass at least once, and due to its great EdgeQuake offensive combination, you're also able to then pressure it out. Custap Explosion is great on any Pokemon, and it lets Solrock possibly take a physical wall such as Tangela with it once you no longer need it in the game. This set is a great fit on any offensive team that requires some nifty role compression, and I'd definitely recommend it.


Grovyle @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rock Slide
- Low Kick / Energy Ball


This is my Holy Grail Grovyle set and I loooooooooooooooove it. When I was building my team for finals, I was wanting to fit Grovyle onto my team because I think that STAB Leaf Storm is fantastic and pressures so many teams, however I was finding that its standard SubSeed set required too much setup to be reasonable on an HO team so I developed this mixed LO set that I think is fantastic at wallbreaking. Two of the most common Grovyle checks (bar Kecleon, this is unfortunately still walled by it) are Magmar and Flareon, and you are able to kill both with Leaf Storm -> Rock Slide on both guaranteed if Rocks are up. Without Rocks, Rock Slide is a roll on Flareon while it's still a guaranteed OHKO on Magmar (assuming it isn't Scarf). This set also gives Grovyle a very solid 37.5% chance to beat Beedrill if Rocks are up (assuming max/max Beedrill w/ Black Sludge and a min roll on Leaf Storm), letting it get past another common check of its so it can then come in later and spam more Leaf Storms. I fit Low Kick in the last slot on mine as Probopass sometimes switches in on Grovyle's Leaf Storms, and the combo of Leaf Storm + Low Kick eliminates Probopass from full which is of course another bonus. If you're looking for a Grovyle set with more immediate breaking power, I think this one is great and should definitely be tried out more often because SubSeed can sometimes just be so slooooooooow to get momentum with and Scarf is a meme.

Other Stuff I love rn
:mawile: I don't think Mawile should be raised right now but SD is just amazing right now on offensive teams. I've been using SD Leftovers w/ a spread of 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe + Brick Break in order to outspeed max Probo/Lairon and smack em with a +2 BBreak and I think it's great. Mawile is just such a splashable Persian check for offense and it just fits on so many teams.
Double Scarf! May sound cheesy, but I think it's a fantastic way to go on Offense. I used it on two different teams as I've found speed control can be pretty lacking sometimes and sweepers can just get so many opportunities to setup throughout a game due to how fat they are (I'm looking at u Lapras). It gives you some extra security and considering how stuff like Arbok/Kingler already so potent, I don't think you lose all that much.
 
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