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Fantastic speed tier, big spatk stat, usable attack stat. The 3 sets that I have used are specs sub toxic and cb
Cb can be seen as an inferior set that works as a lure being able to clean ohko max hp lapras with cross chop, do 70 percent upwards to solrock with iron tail, 2 of the best checks to magmar
Sub toxic works similarly while being less immediately threatening being very obnoxious in longer games. Reliably checking tangela is also a big feat not to be underestimated. Complements fwg cores with wartortle/staryu and tropius/tangela/carnivine wonderfully too
I agree so much with this. Neomon used magmar against me and the threat of it running either a physical or special set is so scary to deal with and since it can run both there are many situations where it forces a switch. I think it has been overlooked because of its lack of coverage but the stats that this mon has makes it a huge threat. The simple fact that it can run phy, spec, or both gives it momentum to blow games wide open. From what I've seen running sub is the way to go, but you could also go with will o wisp. I don't know much about using the mon myself but from what I've seen this is something I expect to see way more usage.
Magmar from Unranked --> B+: Magmar is a huge threat in DPP ZU. Base 93 speed, base 100 SpAtk, and a decent movepool (Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Psychic, Hp Grass) helps this mon carve out a unique niche in this metagame. Essentially nothing outside of Flareon and Quagsire (unchipped) want to switch into specs fire blast and flareon gets chipped by rocks on the way in. Not to mention that flareon's best set is offensive anyway and in that case focus blast/psychic cleans it up easily. The mon outspeeds all of the relevant metagame except the fast normals, yanma, and diglett which makes a specs wallbreaking set all the more lethal. Definitely something we slept on when making VR.
Mawile from B --> A-: Saying that mawile is effective in dpp zu is the understatement of the century. This mon CLEANS up this tier and access to intimidate helps it check some of the most dangerous threats we have while giving it access for setup. Mawile checks arbok, persian, raticate, mightyena, and slaking while providing your team with a solid poison, ghost, and grass resists against special attackers. It consistently puts in work vs all of the opponents I've faced and SD, Iron Head, Brick Break, and Sucker punch allow it to mitigate being trapped by probopass and diglett. Base 50 speed is also super respectable for naturally outspeeding or creeping probo.
Had a replay vs Ho3nConfirm3d but it expired before I could save. Rip
I took out Lapras, Clamperl and a few other mons that the old validator incorrectly claimed were banned and added all the NU/PUBL mons that weren't in the old validator, because I think someone brought an NU mon a week or two ago.
Keep in mind it doesn't go above NU; don't bring a Garchomp or something just because the validator says it's okay.
I played BW ZU for the Swannas in ZUPL, unfortunately we didn't get into the finals, but I managed to get a 6-1 record, winning week 2-5 + 2 Tiebreaks, sadly I couldn't play on week 1 due to personal reasons, but I got my rematch against Tack in the semi-finals, which turned out to be my only loss in the tournament. And I felt now is the right time so "share some of my secret knowledge" :>
Anyways, I think I know the tier pretty good by now, so I wanted to talk about some mons and their place in the tierlist.
First of all: shoutouts to DurzaOffTopic and the other council members for providing VRs and the other recources, they are a good start for anyone that wants to start playing this tier.
But the VRs are pretty much outdated, the tier shifted a lot since I first started playing it in the ZU Classics BW Cup (Regigigas in BW ZU, ugh...) and the people should know which mons really rule the tier (at least in my opinion):
Lets begin with the obvious one:
Purugly C+ > A+
I used Purugly in all 7 of my ZUPL matches and overall it was also always top 3 in usage through the tournament. Even tho physical walls like Wormadam-Trash or Boldore wall it completely, its speed tier makes it an excellent revenge killer and you can always U-Turn on them. It is especially good with Hazards: in a tier (and generation) where Spinning is really hard, Purugly can really control the match, chipping everything for free with Fake Out, forcing many switches due to its speed and a Silk Scarf boosted Return also hurts. And the Ability to Sucker faster mons! in general: Fake Out + Sucker Punch kills most of the Scarfers in the tier with Rocks up.
It also fits on all team styles, I used it in semistall builds, balance and HO and allows you to not need a scarfer yourself, thanks to its great speed tier.
Overall Purugly is like Persian in DPP ZU, fits on most teams and always does a good job, there are great checks to it, but you basically need at least 1 Rock/Steel/Ghost type in your team that can tank the Fake Outs.
Also I noticed that Purugly never really needs to take a hit, because you can play the Fake Out + U-Turn game everytime. In my opinion its one of the best pokemon in the tier. Oh, its also great against weather teams :)
Arbok B > A+
Arbok is so dangerous. It is pretty bulky, even not invested and can usually tank a hit to set up 1 Coil, which makes it able to 1HKO most of the tier after Rocks damage, at +2 it really 1HKOs everything...
The only problem I see with it is its 4 Move Slot Syndrom: Coil and Gunk Shot are set, also Sucker to kill faster mons. The last slot can be Earthquake to hit everything across the board for good damage (Wormadame-Trash, Corsola or Frillish), or Aqua Tail to hit specific mons harder (Marowak, Krokorok or Lunatone) (I even saw Fire Fang, which you can use if you really want to hurt Wormadam-T). But it is always a threat, being able to set up on physical attackers with Intimidate, or you could even try Shed Skin with a more defensive variant that runs rest. And of course choiced Sets, because Switcheroo is really good since all of the Arbok Switch-Ins in the tier normally do not enjoy a Choice Scarf. All variants are really scary, B is definitely too low for one of the top threats in the tier.
Simisear: S > A
Don't get me wrong, Simi is good. The first time I looked at the VRs I really thought I had to prepare for this thing, because it's S Rank and many people used it. But after testing and playing with and against it, I found it underwhelming for a S Rank Pokemon. I never had problems with it (because I'm running Purugly lol) and chose other mons over it when I wanted to play it myself. It has a great Movepool and so many viable sets: Scarfed, Specs, Band, Life Orb + Nasty Plot, physical or special or mixed or SubSalac Nasty Plot, the last one being the best probably. But if you really want to beat Simisear, you can do 2 things: defensively you can run Spdef Flareon, Lampent, Frillish or Chinchou, which can easily outstall most of its sets, and offensively you run Purugly, forcing it to switch out and let it take rocks again later. This is all theory talk, but we are talking about Gen 5, where hazards are here to stay if you really want it. I find Arbok to be much more threatening, Simisear is way faster but it is also so frail and never is the exact right set you need to win the game. It does not feel like the pokemon that rules the meta, like a pokemon that deserves the S Rank. TBH I don't think there is a S Rank mon in BW ZU (ok, maybe purugly if i think about it lol)
Chinchou: UR > B
Chinchou fits perfectly in the B Rank I think, it is really bulky and its best set: Spdef Resttalk with Scald + Volt Switch does everything you need when you want a defensive Watertype. It walls Simisear, Raichu, Emolga, etc and most defensive Mons that rely on Toxic to kill things, because you just rest it off. Also: Scald is a great move and Knock Off is still 20 Base Power, so not seen that often. Although the tier is more physical based on the offense, this Chinchou set alone would be enough to be safe against most special threats in the tier and Volt Switch is also always nice, so you can bring in your Purugly safely
+2 252 SpA Simisear Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 98-116 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 90-107 (25.4 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 133-156 (37.5 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 170-200 (48 - 56.4%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
Krokorok: UR > A/A-
It's not even listed in the legal NFE list, so most people don't even know about this lol (pls, fix these lists for all the oldgen ZU tiers, it's so annoying to watch battles that don't count because someone brought something illegal...)
Krokorok does exactly the same thing as Krookodile in UU: Be a trapper that can either be Scarfed or an offensive Rocks Setter. Intimidate is often the better Ability, although Moxie Sweeps can be sweet. I’ve been running Adamand Scarfed Krook in my teams, because it outspeeds most important things at 370 Speed (Purugly!) and it really likes the added power that adamant gives it. It's a great revenge Killer and although common Cores like Wormadame-Trash + Leafeon can be annoying, you still chip them away slowly. Also, the added power to safely kill something with Pursuit is really nice.
Marowak is overall way stronger, but the Ability to outspeed everything non scarfed in the tier with its own Scarf is also really good. Also, please don't use Drilbur, this thing does everything better, except Spinning, but Spinning sucks anyway in the Tier.
Pawniard: B- > B+/A-
Defog is not a thing, but that little thing is still really good. You can easily set up 1 SD on mons like Wormadam or Scarf Users locked into the wrong move, and then you have a killing machine. +2 Sucker hurts everything really bad and it is still kinda bulky to tank 1-2 hits with Eviolite. It also kinda stops Purugly thanks to Inner Focus (we all saw that 1 replay lol...). There are answers to it but it can really function well as a lategame cleaner.
Eelektrik: UR > B
Like Eelektross, Eelektrik enjoys having no weakness, combined with pretty good stats. It can spread status, Voltturn around and can be a pain in the ass for offensive teams to play around its coverage. It is not super great, but a fine mon in B Rank.
Staryu: A > B
Staryu is the best Spinner in the tier, but spinning just sucks. It is not bulky, except you sacrifice its decent speed stat and also doesn’t hit that hard. If you really need a spinner go for Staryu, but it is not deserving the A rank. The best Spinblocker in the tier: Frillish isn’t even 2HKOed by offensive Staryu and yes, you can run Toxic, but you have to decide which move to sacrifice between Spin, Recover, Scald and T-Bolt.
252 SpA Staryu Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Frillish: 106-126 (33.8 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Whirlipeede: B- > B/B+
If you want Spikes/TSpikes, go for this one. It is pretty bulky on the physical side and can act as a check for Threats like Purugly or Leafeon. It should be at least in the same tier as Trubbish.
These are all mons I played, and I think are really mistreated in the VRs. I'll also post my teams, when the tournament is over, but overall it was a great experience and I fell in love with that niche tier, and I think it is a fun one to pick up. And I’m still really upset that Purugly is sitting in C+, trust me, that thing is busted...
But yea, shoutouts to all the other Oldgens ZU Players, we really developed the meta a lot and there are still so many things we haven't found out yet, I just hope that there will be more tournaments that feature these great metas :)
Ok, I'm gonna drop some thoughts on dpp zu after playing a lot the tier for the past month. I played for the Swannas and although I ended up with a dissapointing record of 2-3 (playing like shit in 2 of the losses, doing the biggest choke in my Pokémon career in one of them even) I really enjoyed the tier and I think it's overall a really fun meta. Huge s/o to DNB, you were the clutch player of the team for sure, ending up 6-1 and not only that, but helping ham and me in oras and dpp respectively. It was really nice to meet you, man. Another huge s/o to quagsgone, who joined the server to help us and who did about 1000 tests with me throughout this zupl and had to stand all my chokes and missplays. S/o to LPY too for drafting me and not benching me despite playing like shit. You were a great manager, I apologise for my poor work . And, obviously, s/o to all my teammates and the people that came into the server after the tiebreaker (especially neomon, you helped me a ton, I really appreciate it) and helped us during 1 week more, y'all were great and I hope I can team with any of you in future tours.
Let's start now with some vr noms:
Kecleon from high B to mid A: This mon has proven to be a staple in most of the teams as a blanket check for special attackers and a reliable hazard setter. The rise in usage of lapras, grovyle, banette and magmar and its ability to check all of them outside from cb magmar (lo can also win you if he gets the cross chop right or you have previously received some chip)does not only but make this mon more viable since it's always hard to find a lapras answer on balance and you often end up relying on your own lapras to check it.
Lapras from high B to mid A: As said previously, this is one of the most influential mons in this tier right now, I could even consider it to A+. It kind of forces you to run quagsire/kecleon in order for it to not get a kill every time it comes into the field. Specs hits like a truck and lefties + tect is also a great set, especially paired with t spikes beedrill (which is also a not bad lapras switch-in) that has more longevity and isn't so easy to revenge kill. The later, can also be used as a lead that can win the 1v1 against most common leads aside from suicide lead solrock. On the other hand, dd sets have been popping up as of late as a nice way to lure the aforomentioned counters to lapras and using them as a set up bait. This is an amazing set if paired with a reliable lapras answer (since you don't touch opp lapras) that can sweep entire teams almost from preview.
Banette from high B to low A: Another mon that has seen a lot of usage in this zupl, especifically with a lo special set consisting of shadow ball as the main stab move, hp fighting to deal with steel-types that try to switch in like probopass and mawile, (you must be wary of sucker punch) shadow sneak or sucker punch, depending on if you prefer using a move that hits mons like raticate but can potentially lose some 1v1s if you lose the 50/50s (example: sub gastly vs banette)and destiny bond or pursuit. This is no the only set though, it can run choice item trick sets that can take off-guard its typical answers, which aren't many to be honest, mainly kecleon, but you can also lure other mons that try to switch in like raticate or walrein. All these sets can make for an awesome lead, especially choice-item sets due to their ability to gum up a mon like kecleon in turn 1, which can be easily exploited by another mon like specs magmar, lapras, grovyle or exploud to name a few. This replay shows how good LO Banette is and in this other one it is shown how key trick choice item Banette can be in order to win a match.
Grovyle from UR to low A: With the rise of dusclops, the meta has developed into a more offensive one, and, as a consequence, this is really good at the moment. Offensive teams often lack answers to this and just depend on being able to r kill it, and while you may think this has a hard time against balance teams, sub seed can be used to annoy the likes of mawile, probo, kecleon and shelgon and its other answers just get easily chipped with rocks up, which isn't exactly difficult in a meta where hazard removal is almost non-existent. I've also been toying around with lead grovyle and it's a pretty decent lead, although it sucks that it loses to persian.
Probopass from UR to high B: This is a really nice rocks setter and trapper that can be used as your sole normal-resist in conjunction with shed shell so that you are not trapped by diglett and opposing probopass. Lead Persian or Raticate + Probopass is a great core that really benefits from the fact that there are not fighting-types in this tier outside of meditite and the bad machop since you can pivot around into what normally threatens Persian/Raticate, being this Steel-types like Mawile and Lairon that probo can trap.
Sableye from UR to low B: This mon was honestly really hyped up when it dropped because people just wanted to replace dusclops with something, but as the time passed, they realised this wasn't near as good as dusclops. Its poor bulk compared to dusclops doesn't let it tank many hits on the special side and it doesn't actually check a lot of things on the physical side either, just normal types, which can normally pivot with u-turn. Cm sableye seems to be the best set, and it can work as shown in this game: but it is usually forced to click recover for the whole game since it's very easy to chip with rocks damage and status or it isn't useful at all in the match up. This was a battle in which Sableye was able to set up and sweep in late-game, the influence that Grovyle has in this tier is also shown.
Walrein from mid C to mid B: This is another mon that has been seeing a lot of usage in zupl. While a priori it might seem like a worse lapras, its ability in thick fat that let it check magmar and its access to encore to prevent some mons like Mawile from setting up, locking Stealth Rock setters into rocks or Water-types into their Water Stab is a really useful perk too.
Beedril from high C to mid B: This is, alongside Noctowl, the best tangela answer in the tier. This can be used as a soft lapras/walrein check and it is able to put t spikes up and pivot against almost any special mon not named magmar, flareon or lunatone which is very cool since there are not many grounded poison-types in this tier, seviper, swalot and arbok are the first that come to the top of my head and neither of them is common and hazard removal sucks in this tier.
Omanyte from UR to high C:Neomon's special. This is actually a good mon that can't only fit on stall, but on balance and even on offense as a suicide lead, although it is kind of outclassed by pineco as a suicide lead. Its typing allows it to threaten most leads like persian or solrock and get a layer of spikes/some chip with surf which will probably remain up for the whole match because as I have already said almost no one runs hazard removal in this tier. It also has protect for scouting choice mons like specs lapras and stalling while recovering some hp with leftovers.
Girafarig from UR to mid C: Another neomon special. This is a decent lead that doesn't care about fake out because of inner focus and that can threaten Rock-types and Water-types with energy ball. Hp Fighting + Psychic is an awesome combination that more offensive teams aren't prepared for and it has bp to keep momentum up. Talking about bp, this doesn't have to be used as a lead, it can be used on offensive teams as a cm passer that is very scary by itself. I'll post the team I used against TTK later in this post for you to test how Girafarig works.
Lopunny from mid A to high C: This mon is outclassed by persian in almost any sense. To begin with, it has a 65 base atk, making it signifcantly weaker than persian which has 75 atk. Secondly, it doesn't have a fake out boosted by technician, which in conjunction with its shitty atk base, makes fake out rather useless. Lastly, it lacks u-turn, which doesn't let it chip his most frequent checks, being this solrock and tangela and forces it to run batton pass, and because of batton pass restriction, that means you cannot use glaceon or mawile because you won't be able to put batton pass on them. Lopunny does have some characteristics that can justify its use though, the main one would be Jump Kick that means that, unlike Persian, it's not checked by steel-types like Probopass or Lairon. It also has access to Healling Wish, a really nice support move, although it must be noted that healling wish mechanics are different in dpp, you take the hazards damage first, and then you are healed. While you have to drop fake out for it, it isn't a huge deal because of what I mentioned before.
Clefairy from mid A to low B: I'd rather use kecleon than this 99% of the times. Sure, a wall with rocks that doesn't get crippled by status sounds nice, but its poor bulk of 70/48/65 doesn't let it check half of the things that kecleon checks. It has a nice movepool but it's almost as passive as kecleon because it doesn't have an especially good spa. You can also try cm, but you'll have a hard time trying to sweep with it since its def just sucks and it your opp can easily go into any of his physical attackers because clefairy just doesn't hit at all. This replay shows how cm clefairy kind of struggles to do something in most matches.
Pupitar from low A to C: Continuing on the outclassed mons noms, this is outclassed by rp lairon by the most part. This mon really struggles to set up because of its horrible typing that only lets it set up in front of Normal-types, magmar and some passive mons that aren't particularly common these days with the meta being more offensive (the only mon that comes to the top of my head is beedrill, and it can even set up t spikes and U-Turn lol), while Lairon has a better physical bulk and can set up in Gastly, choice-locked lapras/glaceon and -2 spa grovyle, it doesn't have to rely so heavily on stone edge because of Iron Head, and it doesn't need to set-up in order to work because it hits like a truck, head smash is a guaranteed 2ko with rocks up on tangela.
Granbull from low A to high C: Another Normal-type that is mostly outclassed by Raticate in this case. Granbull's main problem is that, while it has a nice movepool that let it deal with most common normal-type answers, Raticate hits harder, doesn't get outsped by base 95 mons and has u-turn, which is huge because if you pair it with a trapper you are not missing what eq/close combat brings to the table. Raticate also has Quick Attack to clean in late, whereas Granbull can just be revenge killed by any mon with a 95 base speed or higher or by every scarf user. This case is pretty similar to the Lopunny vs Persian one.
Pidgeot from mid B to UR: Why would you ever use this over Fearow?
I wanna get some discuss as well on a couple of mons that I've never used but that I feel like aren't good enough to be ranked:
Clamperl
Magcargo
Parasect
Butterfree
Trapinch
Delibird
Vespiqueen
Dustox
Shedinja
I also wanna get some discussion on where Meditite should reside at, because I haven't used it enough myself to have a conclusion, but it's clearly a good mon. Toy Time King can probably give more information about this.
Thoughts on Lapras for A+?
I support the Magmar and the Mawile noms too, although a+ is too much for Magmar in my opinion, it's fine in A-.
Some niche mons
Munchlax: This mon can take advantage of some meta trends like specs Magmar, Grovyle or Lapras and use them as a set up bait. It's also a nice sleep absorber that can set up in front of tangela, and it can sweep with ease if you are able to kill Gastly, Mawile and Lairon (this is why pairing it with Probopass is prefered) and don't face any random Meditite since most physical mons struggle to kill it after one curse. I've also used it in hazard stack stall due to its access to whirlwind and as an answer to this aforomentioned threats. Overall, I think this is a very scary mon that is worth a try.
Stall hazard stack team containing Whirlwind Munchlax: I haven't really tested this but it's similar to standard stall and the idea of hazard stack + Whirlwind should be pretty cool in this tier.
Bonus stall team that is also untested: I wanted to test Shuckle and put this all together.
Minun: Another nice bp passers, of np in this case. You don't really prepare for Electric-types in this tier, so a +2 Electric mon is really threatening, especially if it isn't slower than diglett. Overall, pretty good alternative to Girafarig, that does not only work as a stats passer but as a wallbreaker by itself. Pair it with something that takes advantage of Diglett and Kecleon like lunatone and you are good.
Grotle: Nice Grass-type lead that wins every lead mu unless you face lapras or Walrein and that can guarantee rocks turn 1 because of the fact that you have the lead mu won and that you are forcing persian out without letting it taunt because of the fear to Superpower which is a very valid move too in order to check lairon reliably (lo head smash wins and in can always flinch with iron head in the case that it's not lo). In a nutshell, it's basically a physical tangela that trades sleep powder and a nice offensive pressure for rocks.
BP team containing lead Grotle: I used this in semifinals, and although it did like shit because I faced Raticate and I clicked Trick with Gastly once it was my only Raticate check, it did awesome in tests. Just don't choke as much as me and you'll be golden.
Marshtomp: Pretty similar to Grotle. Wins almost any lead mu, ensuring rocks turn 1 and it can be very annoying if you manage to poison their Grass-type mon.
Marshtomp team: Another untested team that doesn't look good at all ngl, but it can work for you to get an idea of how Marshtomp works.
Seadra: Following the Water-types lead trend, this is a pure water lapras with a speed tier that lets it outspeed most common leads aside from Persian and that hits like a truck with Specs.
Some more teams:
Scarf Medidite team: I was thinking about using this against TTK at first, but I finally opted to use the bp one containing Grotle. I did a fair amount of tests and it was doing well.
Scarf Wailord team: Did this for Specs to beat Tony and Scarf Wailord surprisingly put a lot of work in that match. Kecleon + Tangela is probably the strongest defensive core in the tier and Magmar + Gastly is super scary, especially with RP Lairon on the back which can easily clean after them getting chip on some crucial mons and forcing Kecleon to come in.
Huntail + SubSplit BP Mawile team: I used this against Heysup in that game where he brought Golduck. The team was working well for me in tests, however, that Mawile set is probably outdated, I bet it's still a really fun set though.
Random TR team: Quag did a TR team and started winning me over and over so I asked him to pass me the team. I changed 1 or 2 members of the team, and I swear it works incredibly well in a lot of mus, but it's still TR, really MU-reliant. The team still needs a lot of work with EVs and some other stuff but it's pretty fun.
My DPP ZU opinions
Magmar UR->Low A
I’ve made my opinions on this mon known to everyone who will hear me. Its ability to fill the role of both a speedy physical and speedy special attacker makes this mon incredibly versatile. OHKOing mons like Tangela and Probopass is something that is amazing to have in this meta game. However, if you choose to switch and give it a sub that could be the game. However, due to the meta of DPP ZU rocks are everywhere and taking 25% per switch in is rough. It lacks the ability to take hits from common mons making it more of a revenge killer. Also, it lacks any good boosting moves so sweeping is rare.
Magmar @ Life Orb
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]/Hidden Power [Electric]
- Substitute
Magmar @ Life Orb
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Fire Punch/Flare Blitz
- Cross Chop/Brick Break
- Thunder Punch
- Substitute
Probopass PU->High A
This mon has become a staple of most teams after it dropped down. The bulky attacker set that is immune to toxic has made this mon great. It has access to stealth rock, toxic, pain split while also having amazing stabs in steel and rock. While it does have a 4x weakness to ground and fighting it is easy to build around a ground weakness and there are no good fighting stab users. The only mon that can easily check it is Spdef Quagsire. However, it does run into one problem it is risky to run leftovers. With Diglet and other speed crept Probos it can be trapped and OHKOed, so people run shed shell to get around this problem.
Probopass @ Shed Shell/Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic/Pain Split
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
Grovile UR->High B
A mon that has been discovered recently and has already been making a mark on the metagame. Having a scarf leaf storm is something that is really useful and if that doesn't work also running endeavor and grass whistle is always a good last ditch effort. The set can have problems with mons that resist grass and only need one turn to set up, so use it carefully. There is also the sub + seed set something I haven't personally used, but from what I have been told can be a real nusense.
Grovyle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Leaf Storm
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Endeavor/Grass Whistle
Meditite UR->Low A
A mon first used by my teammate TTK. He realized that this mon can be a real threat as a scarfer. The fact that the meta hasn’t had a significant fighting type til now is an interesting change up and allow for this mon to be a late game monster. Hjk and zen are good stabs as well. However, the weakness lies in its typing and lack of buik, with moves such as shadow sneak and suck punch doing a lot of damage. Also consider the fact that it isn’t the fastest scarfer so other scarfed mons can destroy it. Overall, I’d say that it is definatly a very threatening late game opinion.
Meditite @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
Sableye PU->High B
This mon kind of has an interesting situation, because it has no attacking power and not much bulk. However, it has made itself a role through its moveset and lack of weakness. I don’t have a lot of experience against this mon, but it from what I’ve seen it definitely deserves some praise.
Sableye @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Seismic Toss
- Substitute
- Knock Off/Will-o-wisp
Omanyte UR->High B
Not the most interesting, but something should be said for how good this mon is as a stealth rocker. It also has the ability to run spikes or t spikes. It's good def combine with shell armor makes it very good vs the common leads. Not a great mon at attacking so if your team needs stealth + spikes/tspikes it is perfect.
Omanyte @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes/Tspikes
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Surf
Banette Top B->Mid A
I am a huge fan of Banette. Having double priority, immunity to normal type, and having the ability insomnia. Insomnia’s power is often overlooked but in a gen where sleep is extremely broken it can save the game. Since this mon runs double prioty I have never seen the need to run any speed on it instead trying to run a mixed set to get around common checks. This set was initially shown to be by the user grime. The mix of sucker and ss with shadow ball and HPfighting has amazing coverage.
Banette @ Life Orb
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Lonely/Naughty Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Sucker Punch
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting] 252 SpA Life Orb Banette Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangela: 255-301 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Banette Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Probopass: 208-248 (64.1 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lapras Mid B->High A/S
Do I really need to say anything? If you've used Lapras or played against it you know how threatening this monster is. Specs claims lives and dd turns it into a steamroller enough said.
Hey all, with ZU heading into gen 8 in a few days, council has updated SM ZU sample teams and the sample teams guidelines (which we'll use in gen 8 too). We decided to change the guidelines in order to make them more concise, clear, and because before, the methodology for choosing teams was admittedly too focused on teams abiding by the highest ranks and being super standard. All changes can be seen in the OP.
Yes. It's on the viability rankings as well, I just have not updated the legal Pokemon list yet because its somewhat of a minor resource that slipped my mind. Try to refrain from one-liners though - if you or anybody else has any questions, especially of a similar nature you can PM me or another council member on Pokemon Showdown or on Discord. You can reach me on discord at durza#5669.
After zupl 1 happened, the bw council went dormant, and our resources never received the update they needed. Fast forward a year later, and everyone else on bw zu council has either retired or resigned from their position, leaving me as the only one left on council. I got control of the post, so for the time being, i have 5gen and DnB as a temporary council for bw zu, and got to work with their help to get resources updated for bw. We've completely redone the vr, since it needed many, many changes, and made a role compendium for help with teambuilding. We are currently forming a checks compendium, and the three of us are using zupl as a means to engage who else is interested in helping the tier.
Thats just a quick update to show whats happening in terms of bw, we hope to get the tier's resources finished and fleshed out soon.
Hey all, I took what was left from previous discussions here and in our oldgens channel in Discord to update the DPP VR. Note that this update was confirmed all by myself this time around as a compromise to get an update out timely.
B > S: The most influential DPP hidden gem from last year's ZUPL, Lapras is capable of multiple sets while being one of the best for the roles it plays. Choice Specs has perfect coverage, and only the bulkiest of special walls are safe switch-ins. Those said walls then have to worry about the Dragon Dance set, as well as SubToxic support and utility.
UR > A+: Huge defensive bulk and access to Stealth Rock makes it a premier wall for the tier. Not even Diglett stands in its way, as its bulk allows it to comfortably run Shed Shell without missing Leftovers recovery too much.
UR > A-: Instant recovery and a typing without weaknesses sure has its upsides. Threatening to burn physical attackers and having Night Shade / Seismic Toss for chip isn't too bad either. Mediocre stats all-around is the only troublesome aspect of Sabeleye, allowing wallbreakers like Lapras and Huntail to threaten it.
B > A-: Intimidate, Swords Dance, and Sucker Punch make it one of the better cleaners in the meta. The always valuable Steel-typing also helps with setup opportunities.
UR> A: The Fire-typing and Magmar's stelar coverage makes it a pretty good wallbreaker with limited defensive checks. Choice Specs Fire Blast in its own right tears through most checks, while Focus Blast's high base power can 1HKO Probopass while also being very effective to Kecleon, Clefairy, and Flareon. A weakness to hazards and general unreliability is what mainly holds it back.
C+ > B: Toxic Spikes are a legitimate entry hazard to worry about. They mess up opposing teams without a proper absorber while still forcing tough situations for the tier's Poison-types, and Beedrill is one of the best setters due to its Speed and access to U-turn.
B > A-: Speaking of Poison-types, Swalot is a relevant special wall that checks Grass-types like Tangela very well. RestTalk sets provide recovery and its Ground / Poison coverage hits the special attackers it checks pretty well.
B > A: Huge special defence and recovery proved to be invaluable for defensive cores to pass up on. Kecleon's multiple coverage options also makes malleable to fit the team's needs, whether that be Speed control with Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock setting, or different coverage like Drain Punch for Probopass or Sucker Punch priority.
- These URs were nommed by Chokepic and / or Cigtar and were honored in the update; read above for more details about their niches.
:loppuny: A > C+: Persian stole its spotlight completely, and besides some coverage options like a way to deal with Steel-types, Loppunny's lower Soeed, Attack, and lack of pivoting makes it worse in comparison by a long shot.
A > B: Without an Eviolite to back it up, Kecleon has proven to be the better Normal-type special wall. Clefairy's Magic Guard still has its niche for teams that want to avoid being whittled by Toxic.
A- > C: Shed Skin is unreliable and better Stealth Rock users took its place. Even offensive sets compete with better boosters in a meta filled with faster Grass- and Water-types.
A- > B: Quick Feet are still a little slow for the growing meta, making it hard to find opportunities to activate Toxic Orb and revenge kill, but its coverage is still worth building around.
B > C: While a STAB Brave Bird helps against some walls and slower attackers, Pidgeot is still inferior to faster or stronger Normal-types, with the former not having a nasty Stealth Rock weakness that discourages its pivoting.
Right now, DPP is in drastic need of sample teams! I've been working on my own to submit, but feel free to reply to the thread or just PM me directly for submissions!
Points of discussion regarding DPP ZU:
Is there anything broken in the meta? Entry hazards are annoying with the low viability of the limited removers while having an access of setters, but prevention with Taunt users is still plausible.
Diglett hasn't been the worst for the tier due to Probopass affording Shed Shell, priority users 1HKOing it, and faster attackers avoiding its trapping effect due to the nature of their Speed. Regardless, Arena Trap never flies well in the competitive scene, and could be worth opening a discussion if multiple ZUPL games are decided due to its unexpected trapping.
Slaking is currently the only A rank mon that feels out of place right now. I wasn't nommed in any direction so I let it stay, although I have a premonition that it's currently overselled.
Anything else overrated / underselled? I did this update by myself so I expect there will be differing opinions, so just let us know!
Voting Process: due to the current council being myself, 5gen, and dnb, the three of opted and agreed to invite some bw zu players to provide their opinion in the voting process. These players are Tack :], SpacialRendevous, and Ren-chon.
The initial vote was to see if we wanted to ban Sleep as a whole or purugly, a prominent tier threat with access to Hypnosis. After a short discussion we agreed on sleep being the more banworthy component and voted on it as follows.
SBPC: Ban
DnB: Ban
SpacialRendevous: Ban
Tack: Ban
Ren-Chon: Ban
5gen, while given the option to vote, chose to abstain.
Sleep has been a controversial topic in BW from the beginning due to its ability to turn matchups into coinflips with the brutality of the mechanic in this generation, effectively making a slept mon borderline unusable. BW ZU has abusers of this such as the aforementioned purugly who can sleep a threat before it even has a chance to stop it due to its incredible speed tier, bellossom, who's great bulk allows it to cleanly fire off sleep, and sun abuser Weepinbell, who can deny the ability for certain checks to function with sleep powder. Overall this made the mechanic too powerful and constraining to play around, as checks to important threats could usually counter and hold roles for teams, they would quickly become death fodder.
Aaronboyer and I first brought in Ho3n and then from there, we discussed having additional members and came to a consensus on adding czim and fruits. Keep in mind that if we do want to add additional council members, we will discuss potential candidates as a team and go from there.
Our primary goal is to update the SM ZU Viability Rankings because the meta has continued to evolve and flow over time, especially with ZUPL II (and official room tours from last gen to a lesser extent). If there are any questions, feel free to ping me on Discord or post here.
I'd like to think I've improved a lot as a player since last generation so ahead of my game vs czim I figured I'd throw a few SM VR nominations into the mix.
Comments on Rises, Drops, and contentious Pokemon that I think are fine where they are.
S
Swanna - Still the best wincon in the tier, no Pokemon bar Ditto checks every set offensively and defensively nothing answers both Z-MM and Z-Rain Dance. It has a lot of soft checks and better teams will have at least two, but Swanna always has a solid winpath that is often easy to grasp from the get-go (e.g. get Electivire into +2 Jet range, or knock Mareanie off so Z-Rain can sweep). There's also more utility based sets like Choice Scarf, Defog, and Roost&3Atks. The only big downside to Swanna is that it'll almost always consume your Z-slot, but I think in a much more boring environment most of us would be using Swanna-centered teams regardless because it really is a step above other team archetypes in terms of consistency. No change. Torterra - The best Stealth Rock user in the tier with a lot of versatility that gives it worth on pretty much every team. There's only a handful of reasons why you'd run a different Ground-type Stealth Rock user (Golem for HO or a better Normal-resist, Sandslash for the Electivire matchup) and it's also a solid breaker with SD and Choice Band sets when paired with Bronzor.
A+
Bronzor - Still good, has issues with Pursuit, Knock Off, various Sub mons etc. but it still has a ton of utility despite this. The best Stealth Rock user available when using Torterra or Golem in a more offensive role (which is great because Band Golem actually has no switchins). No change. Combusken - The second best wincon in the tier, I'm supporting a drop down to A+ here because it needs far more support to break through standard answers like Mareanie, Altaria, and Poliwrath without the use of largely ineffective lure sets, with SD Thunder Punch leaving you incredibly vulnerable to Choice Scarf users like Electivire (and even some of the faster pokemon like Floatzel) and the Specially Offensive set falling out of favour due to its reliance on moves with poor accuracy and an inability to break past Mareanie (something SD sets can do with enough high rolls and Knock Off support). It also requires a Z-Crystal to function properly, and lacks any of the utility that Swanna can offer (through virtue of having a better typing, better defensive stats, Roost, and/or access to Aqua Jet). Bouffalant - Rise to A+ because it heavily abuses common defensive Pokemon, particularly Bronzor and Mareanie, in addition to being a solid Exeggutor check (in that it outspeeds and is immune to Grass-type attacks. It benefits a lot from meta trends and is also a great breaker with Choice Band if you opt for it. Electivire - No change. Exeggutor - Best wallbreaker in the tier, only defensive counterplay is Metang/Bronzor and they're both easy enough to SubSeed on or Pursuit trap. Pressured somewhat hard by U-turn Silvally being present on so many teams & poor defensive typing preventing it from getting switches on anything other than Mareanie and defensive Ground-types but I'd honestly just want to see this banned because of the restrictions it forces when building. Golem - I think this should stay in A+ despite Torterra overthrowing it as king rocker. It's imo the best physical breaker in the tier with limited answers to the Choice Band set and as a Stealth Rock user it still offers some good PhysDef support, taking on Pokemon that Torterra can't like SD Combusken and Pinsir (while also having a better matchup vs Rotom-Fan etc.). Only real issue with this as a Choice Band user is it limits you to a few Stealth Rock users like Bronzor and Mawile without doubling up on weaknesses (something you can get around depending on how you build but a limitation nonetheless). Mareanie - I'm supporting a rise to A+ because Toxic Spikes are good and Mareanie compresses a lot in one slot through Regenerator, Knock Off and hazards. I think I'd need to write an entire thesis to properly express how often Regenerator comes into play in a standard match. Silvally-Dark - Best Silvally in the tier primarily because it's by far the best Pursuit trapper, fantastic for securing damage not only on Psychic-types like Exeggutor and Bronzor but also opens up a lot of potential winpaths in every single game, e.g. trapping an Electivire and getting guaranteed damage for a Z-MM Swanna, or trapping a Band Komala locked into Knock Off so that it can't reliably switch into your Bronzor later. The use of Pursuit goes so far beyond just trapping Exeggutor, but Exeggutor is also broken so this Pokemon is definitely A+.
A
Beheeyem - No change. Crustle - No change. Gourgeist-Super - No change. Komala - I think Komala's Choice Band set is overrated, with a poor Speed tier, subpar coverage, and a lack of natural bulk. It also has some poor matchups vs common Pokemon like Gourgeist-XL and Golem, leading to it spamming U-turn rather than its STAB move far more often than I'd want from an A+ breaker. It also faces a lot of competition from Furfrou, which likewise has problems getting past defensive walls (moreso than Komala, since the likes of Torterra can switch into it too) but makes up for it with offensive utility by revenge killing the Simis, Swanna etc. Bulk Up is still a solid wincon, but I don't think its other sets are as good as they were in past metas so a drop to A is overdue imo. Rotom-Fan - No change. Simisage - Heavily punishes the most used Stealth Rock users, the most used defensive cores, and has very few reliable switchins. Knock Off, Superpower, and Hidden Power Ice together take out most Grass-type switchins with only a few (Muk, Rapidash) remaining. Has some set variance too, with Rock Slide over Hidden Power Ice, or Nasty Plot sets being dangerous alternatives. Only real issue with this mon is it can be worn down somewhat easily if it isn't played smartly but I think it deserves a spot in the A ranks. Silvally-Dragon - Draco Meteor is underwhelming damage and as a Defogger it's walled by Bronzor, Torterra, as well as Mareanie if it lacks Thunderbolt. Decent softcheck to Swanna and Combusken but Water does this and is more splashable. Honestly I think the better set is SubSD since the tier lacks solid Steel and Fairy-types (Flame Charge doing a decent number to most of them) but it's not A+. I'm nomming a drop to A, but I think I'd support a further drop to A- too. Silvally-Fighting - I'm nomming this for a rise again because it's the second best mixed attacker in the tier behind Simisage. Its typing allows it to pressure SpDef mons like Lickilicky and Kecleon really well and BoltBeam is huge for it. It's still fairly splashable, with its natural bulk letting it tank hits and check Sucker Punch users like Pawniard, Cacturne, and offensive Golem. It also forms an excellent VoltTurn core with utility Rotom-S. I do want to point out however that there is no merit to using this as a defensive defogger with Shiftry out of the tier, as it's unable to touch Bronzor, can't hit Mareanie without giving up its STAB attack, and is generally outclassed by other forms in this role like Silvally-Water and Silvally-Grass, but I think its mixed offensive set is fantastic and should be placed in the A rank. Silvally-Water - Our best defensive Silvally. It's one of the few forms not pressured by Mareanie, it can softcheck Swanna and Combusken in one slot, one of our best slow pivots and possibly our best Defog user. No change.
A-
Altaria - No change. Dusclops - No change. Furfrou - Furfrou is a solid alternative to Komala and a really easy way to compress Speed control with a fast pivot that can also be used to clean late-game thanks to its bulk letting it tank hits from physical Pokemon like Electivire. It's had a ton of usage in oldgen tours since Gen 8 came out and almost always puts up a good performance. Happy to discuss this further but I think the general sentiment is people already know how good this thing is and it's a crime that it's still in B. Kadabra - No change. Kecleon - No change. The biggest problem I have with Kecleon is its vulnerability to Scald burns (particularly from Swanna) but I think its mixed capabilities make up for this, with Ice Beam/Knock Off/Drain Punch being really hard to play around and the potential for Fire Blast making Gourgeist, Mawile etc. unreliable answers. I think this pokemon is a pretty poor SpDef wall but a reasonably solid offensive tank and I think people should be building with this in mind and putting less expectations on it to check Swanna etc. I can understand a drop but I like it where it is, I think it's just being used poorly. Lickilicky - No change. Leafeon - No change. Poliwrath - No change. Pyukumuku - No change. Raichu - No change. It, like Trevenant, has preyed on some mediocre and/or rusty players a lot in this last cup. I don't think its winrate is necessarily reflective of how good it actually is and I think it's definitely on the same level as Rapidash, Simisear, Leafeon etc. It can be really scary especially against slower teams (like the ones I often build) but it's inherently matchup reliant and I think A- represents this well. Rapidash - No change. Simisear - No change.
B+
Floatzel - No change. Marowak - No change. Mr. Mime - No change. Muk - Small drop from A- to B+ because Suicide Lead Golem is rare now which means Ground-types aren't dying (often via Explosion) turn 3 into games anymore. Mareanie is also everywhere. Still a cool absorber and SubPunch has been underused imo but it warrants a drop in VR placement. Pawniard - Small drop from A- to B+ because it has no defensive utility beyond an immunity to Psychic (it's getting killed by Exeggutor's Leaf Storm) and it's not a consistent enough breaker to make up for this, with an inability to get past somewhat common defensive walls like Gourgeist-Super and a reliance on Sucker Punch to take on anything faster than it (not reliable, particularly vs Pokemon like Z-MM Swanna or Silvally-Fighting). Also has very limited set-up opportunities due to poor bulk even with Eviolite. I think it's still fairly strong though, hence a B+ ranking, and it's the best abuser of Sticky Web in the tier. Also before I move on I want to say that it's a terrible Pursuit trapper because it lacks the natural bulk that makes Silvally-Dark so good, it should only be used as a Pursuit trapper for really desperate compression at the worst of times. Pinsir - Pinsir has a hard time breaking through quite a few physically defensive walls without a lot of support and a weakness to hazards makes setup inconsistent. I agree with the apparent council opinion that Pinsir should've dropped to B+ a while back. Simipour - No change. Toucannon - No change.
B
Avalugg - No change. Bellossom - No change. Chatot - No change. Ditto - No change. Golduck - No change. Granbull - Small drop to B because it's just not as good as the stuff in B+. I honestly can't think of much to argue this based on, I think it's just been higher than it should be for a while now. Grimer-Alola - I want this thing to rise pretty high (it's currently in C) because it's our best Exeggutor answer, our second best (and only other dedicated) Pursuit trapper, and its typing allows you to more easily use Defoggers like Silvally-Dragon and Silvally-Grass that can't necessarily 1v1 Mareanie and are vulnerable to Toxic Spikes. It's also suprisingly good at spreading Poison, with Poison Touch Poison Jab having just under a 50% chance to poison I believe? On balance it provides a lot of cool compression in one slot, giving you far more flexibility in your build than it takes away, and it's also made a decent name for itself on Stall builds and has a lot of variability in its last slot (Knock Off/Pursuit/Poison Jab/???) with Shadow Sneak, Clear Smog, and Rest all being viable options depending on the team. Machoke - No change. Monferno - No change. Purugly - No change. Sandslash - No change. Sawsbuck - No change. Servine - No change. Silvally-Normal - I'm the one who nommed this up and now I'm nomming it down again. Silvally is still really good, but much like the nom below this it's difficult to find room on a team for this because there are other Silvally forms in the A ranks which will often support your team better. It's still a scary af breaker with a Choice Scarf so it's definitely deserving of a B rank, but it's just something you have to build around because it's one of the least splashable mons on the VR. Silvally-Ground - No change, but I know czim nommed it to A- and Ho3n to B+. I think Silvally-Ground is pretty decent in practice and in theory worthy of B+, but I can't support a rise because offensively it's largely outclassed by Silvally-Fighting due to the latter's superior offensive typing letting it get past SpDef mons like Lickilicky and better check offensive Pokemon like Pawniard and Komala. Silvally-Ground also suffers from being a pretty terrible Defog user (due to an inability to touch Bronzor and a weakness to Mareanie's Scald and Torterra's Wood Hammer) and shares a typing with all our best Stealth Rock users that aren't Bronzor. This isn't a huge concern in itself if you're using Silvally-Ground offensively like I believe you should be, but it does mean you're unable to run many of the better Defoggers and it becomes awkward to use many of the better Stealth Rock users in the tier alongside it; its lack of splashability has me reluctant to want to rise it. Shuckle - No change. Vigoroth - No change.
B-
Basculin - No change. Bibarel - No change. Cacturne - No change. Camerupt - Small drop because it's just underwhelming as a breaker. People seem to like this mon primarily because its STAB covers both Bronzor and Mareanie but that core has a poor winrate in tours precisely because of how easy it is to take advantage of with various other better Pokemon like Grimer-Alola, SubSD Bouffalant, SubSeed Eggy, and so on. Camerupt's typing doesn't grant it many switchin opportunities, its Speed stat has it forced out constantly and it's largely unviable as a Stealth Rock user. I think it's still our best Trick Room abuser (maybe behind Marowak) and it's still a reasonable (but overrated) breaker so B- is as low as I'm nomming it. Carbink - No change. Corsola - No change. Dugtrio - No change. Electrode - No change. Fraxure - No change. Glaceon - No change. Jumpluff - No change. Lycanroc-Midnight - Small rise from C+ to B- because it was originally dropped after Torterra entered the tier, but I don't think makes much sense when Swords Dance is definitely Lycanroc's best set and a +2 Fire Punch can blow Torterra back. SD/Stone Edge/Fire Punch/Sucker Punch is a pretty solid wincon that definitely has some matchup issues (e.g. it struggles against Silvally-Fighting, Z-MM Swanna, and PhysDef Golem) but it's no more matchup reliant than Rampardos imo. It's one of our better Rock-types and one of our better breakers and I think B- is a more fitting placement for it. Metang - No change. Oricorio-Baille - No change. Rampardos - No change. Raticate - No change. Shiinotic - No change. Silvally-Electric - No change. Silvally-Grass - No change. Silvally-Poison - No change. Swoobat - No change. Volbeat - No change.
C+
Butterfree - No change. Chimecho - No change. Cradily - No change. Drifblim - No change. Duosion - No change. Dusknoir - No change. Hippopotas - No change. Golem-Alola - A small drop (again one I originally nommed up) purely because I don't think trapping Bronzor is quite as important for teams as it used to be. I touched up on this with my Camerupt nom, but there's better ways to have an advantageous matchup against Bronzor teams than using a breaker that ends up being subpar in every other matchup where a Bronzor isn't present. The core of Golem-Alola and Exeggutor has also gotten weaker, since the primary threat to Exeggutor is now offensive pressure from U-turn Silvally forms as well as Pursuit trappers in Silvally-Dark and Alolan Grimer, which means the core of Exeggutor and Alolan Golem isn't as strong as it used to be. Gourgeist Small - Another small rise because Gourgeist-Small has a really solid Speed tier and has especially seen success on Ho3n's Sticky Web teams where it's shown to be the best offensive spinblocker available. Huntail - No change. Lapras - A small rise because I've used it recently and it's putten in more work than I'd expect from a C rank pokemon. Aside from a few dedicated special tanks (Lickilicky, Kecleon) nothing likes switching into the Surf & Freeze Dry combination and its massive HP stat means it has pretty tanky Substitutes. which it easily sets up in the face of passive mons like Mareanie. It's also a reasonable softcheck to Swanna if you can keep rocks off. Misdreavus - No change. Ninjask - No change. Quilladin - It's always been a little overlooked but Quilladin's popped up in tours irregularly for a while now and always puts up a good showing. Solid defensive stats, reliable recovery, can wall Torterra and Golem, not much more to say. Regice - No change. Relicanth - No change. Stunfisk - Stunfisk 1v1s a solid portion of the Pokemon in the upper sections of the VR and paraspam is a genuinely viable archetype. One of the more sustainable Electivire counters and a good way to punish U-turn users like the Silvally forms (another hazard setter Defog Silvally-Dragon loses to btw) Trevenant - SubCurse is a funny meme that has had way more success in SM Cup than it should've, but I think its Band set justifies a C+ placement alone. Offensively much better than the Gourgeist forms and Natural Cure gives it a huge advantage over stall builds in particular which not many other breakers can boast. Wishiwashi - No change, but alter its icon on the VR to the -school variant please it deserves more respect. Zebstrika - No change.
C
Arbok - No change. Armaldo - No change. Beartic - No change. Frogadier - No change. Hakamo-o - No change. Murkrow - No change. Natu - No change. Noctowl - No change. Probopass - Probopass is now pretty much restricted to stall builds. It's still good there, because trapping Bronzor is more relevant, there's less Z-usage (Pyukumuku and Altaria being the only notable Z-Crystal holders I can think of off the top of my head), and it's actually a reasonable sidegrade to Bronzor that can better deal with a few special attackers like Oriocorio-Baille and Glaceon (its biggest niche btw), but the fact that it can't actually trap Bronzor reliably and Torterra is everywhere makes me want this dropped to C to reflect its lack of splashability. Smeargle - No change. Vibrava - No change. Vullaby - No change.
C-
Flareon - No change. Gogoat - No change. Krokorok - No change, I guess? I don't think I've ever seen this so it could probably be unranked. Munchlax - No change. Regigigas - No change. Solrock - No change. Wormadam-Trash - No change.
Unranked
Gabite - I'm trying this again, because once again I can't see why you'd want to use this over Golem. Rough Skin isn't a niche, because Golem can hold a Rocky Helmet and achieve the same result but with far better bulk to back it up. Looking at its analysis, it answers Pinsir, Rapidash, and Muk, but so does PhysDef Golem. Combusken also isn't a valid reason, because Golem also beats Physical variants well and both Gabite and Golem lose to Special Combusken. Golem is also able to run Leftovers, giving it far better longevity (especially alongside Protect), isn't nearly as vulnerable to Knock Off, doesn't give Swanna a free switch-in, and is a better Volt Switch blocker due to its lack of a 4x weakness to Ice-type attacks and the aforementioned use of Leftovers. I anticipate that any excuse to keep Gabite is going to be a situational reason that ignores Golem's far higher consistency (e.g. Rough Skin getting vital chip after being knocked off), and I'm confident that any team with Gabite will function better with a PhysDef Golem in its place. Grumpig - I'm actually a little confused by this one. In the last slate at the end of Gen 7 this Pokemon got two unrank nominations and one UU nomination. Since the majority of the council nommed this to UU or lower I'm not sure why it's still in C-. That aside, it should really just be unranked entirely. There's no justifiable reason to use this especially when it doesn't even beat Combusken reliably.
UU section - The merit in having a UU section is dubious too, by the way. I don't think there's any real difference in the viability of Ampharos or Slaking compared to Gogoat or Regigigas. If it were up to me, Ampharos, Masquerain, Onix, Shedinja, Slaking, Togetic, and Whirlipede would all be moved up to C- and the rest would be unranked.
Torterra: A to S
Bouffalant: A to A+
Silvally-Dark: A- to A+
Simisage: B+ to A
Silvally-Fighting: A- to A
Furfrou: B to A-
Lycanroc-Midnight: C+ to B-
Grimer-Alola: C to B
Gourgeist-Small: C to C+
Lapras: C to C+
Quilladin: C to C+
Stunfisk: C to C+
Trevenant: C- to C+
Combusken: S to A+
Komala: A+ to A
Silvally-Dragon: A+ to A
Pinsir: A to B+
Muk: A- to B+
Pawniard: A- to B+
Granbull: B+ to B
Silvally-Normal: B+ to B
Camerupt: B to B-
Golem-Alola: B- to C+
Probopass: C+ to C
Gabite: C to Unranked
Gogoat: C- to Unranked
Grumpig: C to Unranked
The full list of nominations is in the changelog above. Thanks for reading!
After playing in ADV ZU cup, I feel like the VR is very outdated rn and here are some suggestions for the current meta. Also, I don't know what the D rank is for so I'd scrap it entirely.
Rises
A to S --- Best mon in the metagame, very splashable and versatile and basically the reason why every team needs a special sponge like Dustox/Bayleef/Lileep/Clefairy..., very hard to check offensively and has a lot of utility with Thunder Wave B to A/S --- Very versatile, also like Seaking has a good mix of bulk/power/speed that lets it trade very well in the metagame, ability to run physical or special makes it hard to check, I'm honestly torn on this being A or S, but it's not B for sure B to A --- Another mon that has proven itself in the metagame being a great jack of all trades, its strong, bulky and somewhat fast, helping it 1v1 a lot of metagame threats B to A --- Filling in for Gloom, a lot of utility and can do offensive and defensive sets well C to A/B --- Best spiker in the metagame, probably the best lead we have C to B --- Good anti-lead, Taunt/Explosion makes it very splashable and easy to prevent Spikes. C to B --- Bulkier and stronger alternative to elekid, decent splashability and performs quite well since its spa is high and the movepool is solid C to B --- This is really scary and can clean easily after setup, but setting up with it is hard and requires screens support C to B --- Very scary wincon that also doubles as a very good special sponge UR to B --- Very good alternative to Taillow that has actual bulk and hits slightly harder. D to B --- rain is good D to C --- All those mons have tiny niches that are worthy of C and are given a rise just to remove the D rank entirely
Drops
S to A --- Delibird is still a strong force in the metagame but its easy to check offensively with stuff like Elekid and Taillow and should move down a bit since it doesnt drive the meta anymore A to B --- nowhere near the top of the metagame, this feels more at home with the niche picks on B. A to B --- huge threat but needs some support to function, if we had subranks i'd put it at B+, but i don't think its A material. B to C --- downgrade to Taillow and Pidgeotto that has swords dance B to C --- very niche calm mind user that is easily revenged and requires a ton of support B to C --- very hard to pull off consistently, easily revenged by priority and not rly that strong even after belly drum. B to C --- very niche pick, water spout is strong but most teams pack water checks making this inconsistent C to UR --- the sample set is so bad lol D to UR --- outclassed by Castform
Seeing as any ORAS games have been wrapped up in ZU Classic, I figured I would go a little more in depth on some of the nominations I made or supported on the current slate.
Full disclosure: This was originally going to be about Wartortle dropping off, but I feel these just fell off super hard.
Banette is one of those "decent on paper, terrible in practice" kind of Pokémon, and it still finds a way to really disappoint. It has a decent move pool and ability choices, but ends up floundering thanks to an awkward speed tier and average offensive presence. Just about any other Ghost-type is better and I'm divided on if this thing should even stay ranked.
Lopunny is still an okay Normal-type thanks to Healing Wish and a neat Klutz Sticky Barb set, but losing momentum in Baton Pass is pretty big when it becomes 100% Gourgeist/Dusclops bait otherwise.
Mienfoo still bops hard with Reckless boosted High Jump Kick, but that speed tier does it no favors thanks to faster scarfers and breakers. Set-up sets are pretty mediocre, and losing Baton Pass means it's having to commit to fully sweeping. There's also two equally hard-hitting Fighting-types that can deter usual Ghost switch-ins and hit just as hard or have better overall bulk to boot. It's just good enough to be C+ honestly.
Wartortle has aged like spoiled milk, and performs about on par with that most of the time. It's way too passive without providing nearly the same level of consistency like Vibrava or Dustox, and its strained move set only exacerbates the issue. The bulk is nice I guess, but honestly you can find better hazard removal that isn't getting worn down by literally everything.
Normal-types have always been a strong backbone of the meta, and these nominations further reflect this.
Fufrou was a Pokémon previously undervalued on the viability rankings, and definitely needs a sharp rise to B+ (A- preferably). Fur Coat is an overall nice ability for blanket checking most physical threats, and with Choice Band it has some decent offensive presence thanks to its speed tier. Paralysis is also a demon.
Pidgeot has once again bounced back into discussion for a potential rise, and even though I feel the ghost of Gary getting annoyed by it, I think Pidgeot is on par with Fearow in B-rank. Brave Bird is just a superb STAB option, and alongside decent bulk and speed tier to tie with Simipour/sage, it has different avenues open to it. My personally favorite has been a Choice Scarf Defog set, abusing its speed tier and momentum to either remove hazards or pick up momentum with U-turn. It's a nice pick that I feel is underrated currently.
Purugly is Purugly, and I think most know what this thing is capable of. It's further cemented itself as a metagame staple and should be reflected with an A+ ranking.
Speaking of Paralysis and demons, Regigigas is really, really dumb to play against. Its bulk is ludicrous and getting chipped down by repeated Knock Offs and Frustrations can be difficult to combat when you're unable to move at times. It's a Pokémon that's more than deserving of A.
Wigglytuff is a Swiss army knife for role compression. Full Cleric, Defensive Stealth Rock, Offensive Stealth Rock and lure Choice Specs show just how flexible it is to fit onto different team structure. Being one of a few Fairy-types in the tier is also great, checking the plethora of Dark-types and Dragons that can otherwise maul teams apart. Definitely in need of a rise.
Just some dumb, fun things that I've been trying lately to broaden some horizons.
I went through paralysis a bit with Regigigas, but imagine it had Serene Grace, can be a hazard setter with recovery AND had Headbutt to effectively give you ~30% chance to even move, at the price of losing amazing stats. That's basically Dunsparce, and it still manages to perform rather well. Just valuable enough for a solid C, but depending on your luck can feel like a C+ or B- Pokémon at times.
Eelektrik is pretty interesting, having a decent move pool and bulk to work with thanks in part to Levitate. I've been liking it as a bulky pivot with Rest + Sleep Talk in the same vein as Chinchou, and it's had some decent result. I think it could use some more experimentation (maybe with Coil) to truly gauge its total worth in the tier. Right now though, I think it's a safe bet for C-.
Both Graveler and Pupitar have a lot of hidden potential, and could use some attention. Graveler is a neat alternative to Gigalith, in part thanks to STAB Earthquake and Sucker Punch to get last minute chip on weakened threats. Pupitar, meanwhile makes use of the typing more offensively thanks to Dragon Dance and Shed Skin, letting it sweep mid-late game akin to Dragonair and Scraggy. Both rocks are also fantastic abusers of Smack Down, a criminally under looked tech that can abuse one of the primary Ground and Rock-type checks in the tier: Bronzor. They're pretty fun on their own and can slide into C- personally.
Porygon is actually a fun check to quite a bit thanks in part to Trace, which can end up with wacky scenarios like Getting Levitate vs Vibrava, Water Absorb from Politoed or having your Eviolite boosted Defense doubled when tracing Fur Coat. Bolt-beam coverage is always nice, and having Recover is a godsend to not get worn down by Volt Switches and U-turns. Easy C rank nomination for me to make.
Rufflet just clicks buttons and hopes it hits.
I'll definitely be adding another post later for some other stuff, but overall I'm glad there's been some new innovation in ORAS. It's still a fun meta to play.
EDIT: So it's been a few days since the initial post, and instead of double-posting I decided it would be better to continue this one throughout the day/week.
Stats mean nothing if you can hold an Eviolite and have a stupid ability to abuse. Everybody knows what their evolutions do in higher tiers, and they basically replicate that to a certain extent here. Foongus can help keep specially offensive Electric, Grass and Water-types in check, or just click Spore, Stun Spore or Toxic at your leisure to wear down your opponent while healing off any damage for free. You can also try Slowpoke, who sits on physical threats like Klang, Pignite or typical Normal-types and proceed to spread Burn or Paralysis, or annoy them with a cheeky Disable. The moral of the story is to use Regenerator.
Round 1 - ADV vs Jonamon25
For this one I just wanted something solid, I thought Pidgeotto was underrated and i went with Birdspam. - https://pokepast.es/bed70d393ef88aaa
The idea here is pretty simple, Pidgeotto and Delibird break stuff for each other while having very good revenge killing capabilities. Nosepass is a bit of a pain for the birds so i added a Rhyhorn to pressure it. Snorunt does snorunt things, Chinchou covers Elekid and Seaking, two troublesome pokemon for the birds. Finally, Exeggcute was something I wanted to use for a while and since I didn't have a Toxic switchin i didnt want to be too weak to Dustox, so i used it over Bayleef and it did amazingly.
Semifinals - SM vs a fruitshop owner
For blalib I really wanted to bring back a core I used a lot during Shiftry meta, which was Toucannon+Silv-ground (ground) - https://pokepast.es/594b0b4fccc0e5e9
The idea of the team is to always have momentum on your side as much as possible. Toucannon is 99% of the time the lead of choice, and if your opponent leads an ice/electric/rock/steel type that checks it you can easily go to Bronzor or preferrably Silv-Ground and pivot back on Toucannon once they go into their Ground-check. Mandatory Mareanie to complement Bronzor, Eggy is a broken breaker so why not use it and Korse is speed control.
Finals - ADV vs DnB
For this one I wanted something to beat Lead Snorunt, so i used Cyndaquil, and i wanted to use Dustox+Nosepass which is a defensive core that i don't often use to catch DnB off guard. - https://pokepast.es/8d0af4cfdf2bfdc9
So Cyndaquil is really cool since it outspeeds and 1 shots Snorunt with Fire Blast, and if they Endure you can just pick them off with Quick Attack, therefore preventing Spikes (at least early on). Bagon is terrible (sry ho3n), but I wanted a setup sweeper that wasnt scared of Meditite (that I know DnB really likes for speed control), Dustox+Nosepass+Exeggcute is a cool defensive core that covers most threats and Taillow is the mandatory speed control.
Finals - SM vs DnB
For this one I wanted to use Chimecho because Tuthur is rly annoying, but it sucks so I ended up changing a lot of the team and swapping it for the obviously superior Natu. That aside, I really wanted to use the chicken because I haven't used it once during the tour and I thought it'd be a nice surprise. (water)(large) - https://pokepast.es/3e66e451f98c7078
I went with physical Combusken first but I ended up swapping it for special because most of the team ended up physical. Furfrou is just a really cute mon that helps with the pivoting in the team alongside Silvally-Water and Natu. Natu is amazing, it denies hazards from Mareanie+Bronzor and checks Exeggutor in one slot, helping a lot in team construction. Golem was just the offensive variant but i ended up trading speed for bulk because i needed it as a tank. And now the icing on the cake, I ended up using Gourgeist-Large for some reason lol (i blame ss zu), but it did its job fine but feel free to swap that one for Gourg-Super.
Anyways, was a fun tour and I've enjoyed the metagame development that the old gens received during it.
I'm just gonna leave with a few VR nominations for ADV here
- UR to A - Literally a beast, good defensive bulk helps it check stuff like Rhyhorn, Nosepass and even Taillow in a pinch. Great movepool including Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Synthesis and the great secondary Psychic-type making it less of a sitting duck vs stuff like Dustox and Grimer which are usually annoying for grass types - UR to C - Cool anti-lead tech that always beats Snorunt with Fire Blast + Quick Attack
This post is outdated. The GSC ZU OP has been moved here.
Welcome to the GSC ZU resources post. If you're new to GSC, here are some specific mechanics from this generation.
Huge thanks to File 13 and the rest of the GSC Discord community for helping compile the resources below! (Holly, Charles A. Theist, Talloween, Akiko Kotone and others!). If you have any questions about the metagame feel free to reach to any of us.
As the person who pretty much created this this tier from meming bout it in a discord, I’ll share a few thoughts
The middle starter evos are all excellent. I initially considered that Croconaw and Wartortle would be broken but they don’t seem so. Quilava stands out to me as quite good at running Protect+Toxic sets and is a fierce offensive threat. Croconaw and Wartortle(especially Tortle) are very powerful defensive Pokemon as well
The king of GSC ZU, I did not except Togetic to be this good. It’s exceptional bulk let’s it run dangerous Curse sets and fits onto almost every team. Togetic is also infamous for using Metronome to obtain Spikes, the only way of getting Spikes in this tier.
These three are solid offensive threats threats. Weepinbell was a later addition to the tier, not being included in the original roster, but it’s def proved itself with SD+Sludge Bomb. Smoochum is frail, but very powerful and deadly with Perish Trap. Finally Doduo is fast, strong, and has Endure+Flail.
Alright, I’m here to share my thoughts on the GSC ZU meta.
The best mon in the tier by far. It’s exceptionally bulky and fairly strong with base 80 Special Attack. It’s also the only mon that can get Spikes, which is good. It’s a staple in the current meta, and by far the best
Both of these are good Poison type offensive mons, but Grimer is definitely better due to its better coverage and offensive capabilities overall. Nidorino still has a niche as it has Lovely Kiss, making it still solid overall.
One of the few fully evolved mons in the tier, he’s very good. His access to Spore makes him possibly the best sleep setter in the meta, and has the ability to heal with Giga Drain. It still has issues in certain matchups against other meta picks, but it seems it is good for now.
Quilava sticks out as one of the premier offensive threats in GSC ZU, having the same Special Attack as Togetic, but with STAB on top of his Fire Blast. Like Reece said, it can also run a Protect + Toxic set to some success, making this mon possibly one of the best in the meta.
Lastly, Poliwag has shown itself as a big threat when paired with sleep setters, such as Nidorino and Parasect. It’s Belly Drum set can be potentially deadly when used in the right hands, and can set up on and possibly kill a sleeping non-RestTalk mon with ease. It’s fierce offensive presence and potential make it a worthwhile pick in the meta.
not sure how to do this so posting anyway
Despite being developed, I've been enjoying the early stages GSC ZU metagame. Here's a team that I would like to share; click the sprites for the paste!
The primary goal is to aggressively play by smashing walls and/or cleaning late game with Onix, while falling back by a small defensive backbone consisting of Croconaw and Parasect. Lead with Togetic, and get some positive Metronome luck. You can use this as a double edged sword as you can get rolls like Spore or Spikes and sleep moves will massively impact the way you play.
Explosion is a great move for wallbreaking. Use this to your advantage as Explosion halves the opposing Pokemon's defenses, farming 15-20 turn games. Taking advantage of sleep and spikes with Togetic and Parasect allows you to gain a crucial advantage to support your offensive teammates; this is what is offered by Togetic (via RNG) and Parasect.
. And, obviously, s/o to all my teammates and the people that came into the server after the tiebreaker (especially neomon, you helped me a ton, I really appreciate it) and helped us during 1 week more, y'all were great and I hope I can team with any of you in future tours.
B > S: The most influential DPP hidden gem from last year's ZUPL, Lapras is capable of multiple sets while being one of the best for the roles it plays. Choice Specs has perfect coverage, and only the bulkiest of special walls are safe switch-ins. Those said walls then have to worry about the Dragon Dance set, as well as SubToxic support and utility. 
UR > A+: Huge defensive bulk and access to Stealth Rock makes it a premier wall for the tier. Not even Diglett stands in its way, as its bulk allows it to comfortably run Shed Shell without missing Leftovers recovery too much. 
UR > A-: Instant recovery and a typing without weaknesses sure has its upsides. Threatening to burn physical attackers and having Night Shade / Seismic Toss for chip isn't too bad either. Mediocre stats all-around is the only troublesome aspect of Sabeleye, allowing wallbreakers like Lapras and Huntail to threaten it. 
B > A-: Intimidate, Swords Dance, and Sucker Punch make it one of the better cleaners in the meta. The always valuable Steel-typing also helps with setup opportunities. 
UR> A: The Fire-typing and Magmar's stelar coverage makes it a pretty good wallbreaker with limited defensive checks. Choice Specs Fire Blast in its own right tears through most checks, while Focus Blast's high base power can 1HKO Probopass while also being very effective to Kecleon, Clefairy, and Flareon. A weakness to hazards and general unreliability is what mainly holds it back.
C+ > B: Toxic Spikes are a legitimate entry hazard to worry about. They mess up opposing teams without a proper absorber while still forcing tough situations for the tier's Poison-types, and Beedrill is one of the best setters due to its Speed and access to U-turn. 
B > A-: Speaking of Poison-types, Swalot is a relevant special wall that checks Grass-types like Tangela very well. RestTalk sets provide recovery and its Ground / Poison coverage hits the special attackers it checks pretty well.
B > A: Huge special defence and recovery proved to be invaluable for defensive cores to pass up on. Kecleon's multiple coverage options also makes malleable to fit the team's needs, whether that be Speed control with Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock setting, or different coverage like Drain Punch for Probopass or Sucker Punch priority.
- These URs were nommed by Chokepic and / or Cigtar and were honored in the update; read above for more details about their niches. 
A > B: Without an Eviolite to back it up, Kecleon has proven to be the better Normal-type special wall. Clefairy's Magic Guard still has its niche for teams that want to avoid being whittled by Toxic. 
A- > C: Shed Skin is unreliable and better Stealth Rock users took its place. Even offensive sets compete with better boosters in a meta filled with faster Grass- and Water-types. 
A- > B: Quick Feet are still a little slow for the growing meta, making it hard to find opportunities to activate Toxic Orb and revenge kill, but its coverage is still worth building around. 
B > C: While a STAB Brave Bird helps against some walls and slower attackers, Pidgeot is still inferior to faster or stronger Normal-types, with the former not having a nasty Stealth Rock weakness that discourages its pivoting.
Swanna - Still the best wincon in the tier, no Pokemon bar Ditto checks every set offensively and defensively nothing answers both Z-MM and Z-Rain Dance. It has a lot of soft checks and better teams will have at least two, but Swanna always has a solid winpath that is often easy to grasp from the get-go (e.g. get Electivire into +2 Jet range, or knock Mareanie off so Z-Rain can sweep). There's also more utility based sets like Choice Scarf, Defog, and Roost&3Atks. The only big downside to Swanna is that it'll almost always consume your Z-slot, but I think in a much more boring environment most of us would be using Swanna-centered teams regardless because it really is a step above other team archetypes in terms of consistency. No change.
Torterra - The best Stealth Rock user in the tier with a lot of versatility that gives it worth on pretty much every team. There's only a handful of reasons why you'd run a different Ground-type Stealth Rock user (Golem for HO or a better Normal-resist, Sandslash for the Electivire matchup) and it's also a solid breaker with SD and Choice Band sets when paired with Bronzor.
Bronzor - Still good, has issues with Pursuit, Knock Off, various Sub mons etc. but it still has a ton of utility despite this. The best Stealth Rock user available when using Torterra or Golem in a more offensive role (which is great because Band Golem actually has no switchins). No change.
Combusken - The second best wincon in the tier, I'm supporting a drop down to A+ here because it needs far more support to break through standard answers like Mareanie, Altaria, and Poliwrath without the use of largely ineffective lure sets, with SD Thunder Punch leaving you incredibly vulnerable to Choice Scarf users like Electivire (and even some of the faster pokemon like Floatzel) and the Specially Offensive set falling out of favour due to its reliance on moves with poor accuracy and an inability to break past Mareanie (something SD sets can do with enough high rolls and Knock Off support). It also requires a Z-Crystal to function properly, and lacks any of the utility that Swanna can offer (through virtue of having a better typing, better defensive stats, Roost, and/or access to Aqua Jet).
Bouffalant - Rise to A+ because it heavily abuses common defensive Pokemon, particularly Bronzor and Mareanie, in addition to being a solid Exeggutor check (in that it outspeeds and is immune to Grass-type attacks. It benefits a lot from meta trends and is also a great breaker with Choice Band if you opt for it.
Electivire - No change.
Exeggutor - Best wallbreaker in the tier, only defensive counterplay is Metang/Bronzor and they're both easy enough to SubSeed on or Pursuit trap. Pressured somewhat hard by U-turn Silvally being present on so many teams & poor defensive typing preventing it from getting switches on anything other than Mareanie and defensive Ground-types but I'd honestly just want to see this banned because of the restrictions it forces when building.
Golem - I think this should stay in A+ despite Torterra overthrowing it as king rocker. It's imo the best physical breaker in the tier with limited answers to the Choice Band set and as a Stealth Rock user it still offers some good PhysDef support, taking on Pokemon that Torterra can't like SD Combusken and Pinsir (while also having a better matchup vs Rotom-Fan etc.). Only real issue with this as a Choice Band user is it limits you to a few Stealth Rock users like Bronzor and Mawile without doubling up on weaknesses (something you can get around depending on how you build but a limitation nonetheless).
Mareanie - I'm supporting a rise to A+ because Toxic Spikes are good and Mareanie compresses a lot in one slot through Regenerator, Knock Off and hazards. I think I'd need to write an entire thesis to properly express how often Regenerator comes into play in a standard match.
Silvally-Dark - Best Silvally in the tier primarily because it's by far the best Pursuit trapper, fantastic for securing damage not only on Psychic-types like Exeggutor and Bronzor but also opens up a lot of potential winpaths in every single game, e.g. trapping an Electivire and getting guaranteed damage for a Z-MM Swanna, or trapping a Band Komala locked into Knock Off so that it can't reliably switch into your Bronzor later. The use of Pursuit goes so far beyond just trapping Exeggutor, but Exeggutor is also broken so this Pokemon is definitely A+.
Beheeyem - No change.
Crustle - No change.
Gourgeist-Super - No change.
Komala - I think Komala's Choice Band set is overrated, with a poor Speed tier, subpar coverage, and a lack of natural bulk. It also has some poor matchups vs common Pokemon like Gourgeist-XL and Golem, leading to it spamming U-turn rather than its STAB move far more often than I'd want from an A+ breaker. It also faces a lot of competition from Furfrou, which likewise has problems getting past defensive walls (moreso than Komala, since the likes of Torterra can switch into it too) but makes up for it with offensive utility by revenge killing the Simis, Swanna etc. Bulk Up is still a solid wincon, but I don't think its other sets are as good as they were in past metas so a drop to A is overdue imo.
Rotom-Fan - No change.
Simisage - Heavily punishes the most used Stealth Rock users, the most used defensive cores, and has very few reliable switchins. Knock Off, Superpower, and Hidden Power Ice together take out most Grass-type switchins with only a few (Muk, Rapidash) remaining. Has some set variance too, with Rock Slide over Hidden Power Ice, or Nasty Plot sets being dangerous alternatives. Only real issue with this mon is it can be worn down somewhat easily if it isn't played smartly but I think it deserves a spot in the A ranks.
Altaria - No change.
Dusclops - No change.
Furfrou - Furfrou is a solid alternative to Komala and a really easy way to compress Speed control with a fast pivot that can also be used to clean late-game thanks to its bulk letting it tank hits from physical Pokemon like Electivire. It's had a ton of usage in oldgen tours since Gen 8 came out and almost always puts up a good performance. Happy to discuss this further but I think the general sentiment is people already know how good this thing is and it's a crime that it's still in B.
Kadabra - No change.
Lickilicky - No change.
Leafeon - No change.
Poliwrath - No change.
Pyukumuku - No change.
Raichu - No change. It, like Trevenant, has preyed on some mediocre and/or rusty players a lot in this last cup. I don't think its winrate is necessarily reflective of how good it actually is and I think it's definitely on the same level as Rapidash, Simisear, Leafeon etc. It can be really scary especially against slower teams (like the ones I often build) but it's inherently matchup reliant and I think A- represents this well.
Rapidash - No change.
Simisear - No change.
Floatzel - No change.
Marowak - No change.
Mr. Mime - No change.
Muk - Small drop from A- to B+ because Suicide Lead Golem is rare now which means Ground-types aren't dying (often via Explosion) turn 3 into games anymore. Mareanie is also everywhere. Still a cool absorber and SubPunch has been underused imo but it warrants a drop in VR placement.
Pawniard - Small drop from A- to B+ because it has no defensive utility beyond an immunity to Psychic (it's getting killed by Exeggutor's Leaf Storm) and it's not a consistent enough breaker to make up for this, with an inability to get past somewhat common defensive walls like Gourgeist-Super and a reliance on Sucker Punch to take on anything faster than it (not reliable, particularly vs Pokemon like Z-MM Swanna or Silvally-Fighting). Also has very limited set-up opportunities due to poor bulk even with Eviolite. I think it's still fairly strong though, hence a B+ ranking, and it's the best abuser of Sticky Web in the tier. Also before I move on I want to say that it's a terrible Pursuit trapper because it lacks the natural bulk that makes Silvally-Dark so good, it should only be used as a Pursuit trapper for really desperate compression at the worst of times.
Pinsir - Pinsir has a hard time breaking through quite a few physically defensive walls without a lot of support and a weakness to hazards makes setup inconsistent. I agree with the apparent council opinion that Pinsir should've dropped to B+ a while back.
Simipour - No change.
Toucannon - No change.
Avalugg - No change.
Bellossom - No change.
Chatot - No change.
Ditto - No change.
Golduck - No change.
Grimer-Alola - I want this thing to rise pretty high (it's currently in C) because it's our best Exeggutor answer, our second best (and only other dedicated) Pursuit trapper, and its typing allows you to more easily use Defoggers like Silvally-Dragon and Silvally-Grass that can't necessarily 1v1 Mareanie and are vulnerable to Toxic Spikes. It's also suprisingly good at spreading Poison, with Poison Touch Poison Jab having just under a 50% chance to poison I believe? On balance it provides a lot of cool compression in one slot, giving you far more flexibility in your build than it takes away, and it's also made a decent name for itself on Stall builds and has a lot of variability in its last slot (Knock Off/Pursuit/Poison Jab/???) with Shadow Sneak, Clear Smog, and Rest all being viable options depending on the team.
Machoke - No change.
Monferno - No change.
Purugly - No change.
Sandslash - No change.
Sawsbuck - No change.
Servine - No change.
Silvally-Ground - No change, but I know czim nommed it to A- and Ho3n to B+. I think Silvally-Ground is pretty decent in practice and in theory worthy of B+, but I can't support a rise because offensively it's largely outclassed by Silvally-Fighting due to the latter's superior offensive typing letting it get past SpDef mons like Lickilicky and better check offensive Pokemon like Pawniard and Komala. Silvally-Ground also suffers from being a pretty terrible Defog user (due to an inability to touch Bronzor and a weakness to Mareanie's Scald and Torterra's Wood Hammer) and shares a typing with all our best Stealth Rock users that aren't Bronzor. This isn't a huge concern in itself if you're using Silvally-Ground offensively like I believe you should be, but it does mean you're unable to run many of the better Defoggers and it becomes awkward to use many of the better Stealth Rock users in the tier alongside it; its lack of splashability has me reluctant to want to rise it.
Shuckle - No change.
Vigoroth - No change.
Basculin - No change.
Bibarel - No change.
Cacturne - No change.
Camerupt - Small drop because it's just underwhelming as a breaker. People seem to like this mon primarily because its STAB covers both Bronzor and Mareanie but that core has a poor winrate in tours precisely because of how easy it is to take advantage of with various other better Pokemon like Grimer-Alola, SubSD Bouffalant, SubSeed Eggy, and so on. Camerupt's typing doesn't grant it many switchin opportunities, its Speed stat has it forced out constantly and it's largely unviable as a Stealth Rock user. I think it's still our best Trick Room abuser (maybe behind Marowak) and it's still a reasonable (but overrated) breaker so B- is as low as I'm nomming it.
Carbink - No change.
Corsola - No change.
Dugtrio - No change.
Electrode - No change.
Fraxure - No change.
Glaceon - No change.
Jumpluff - No change.
Lycanroc-Midnight - Small rise from C+ to B- because it was originally dropped after Torterra entered the tier, but I don't think makes much sense when Swords Dance is definitely Lycanroc's best set and a +2 Fire Punch can blow Torterra back. SD/Stone Edge/Fire Punch/Sucker Punch is a pretty solid wincon that definitely has some matchup issues (e.g. it struggles against Silvally-Fighting, Z-MM Swanna, and PhysDef Golem) but it's no more matchup reliant than Rampardos imo. It's one of our better Rock-types and one of our better breakers and I think B- is a more fitting placement for it.
Metang - No change.
Oricorio-Baille - No change.
Rampardos - No change.
Raticate - No change.
Shiinotic - No change.
Swoobat - No change.
Volbeat - No change.
Butterfree - No change.
Chimecho - No change.
Cradily - No change.
Drifblim - No change.
Duosion - No change.
Dusknoir - No change.
Hippopotas - No change.
Golem-Alola - A small drop (again one I originally nommed up) purely because I don't think trapping Bronzor is quite as important for teams as it used to be. I touched up on this with my Camerupt nom, but there's better ways to have an advantageous matchup against Bronzor teams than using a breaker that ends up being subpar in every other matchup where a Bronzor isn't present. The core of Golem-Alola and Exeggutor has also gotten weaker, since the primary threat to Exeggutor is now offensive pressure from U-turn Silvally forms as well as Pursuit trappers in Silvally-Dark and Alolan Grimer, which means the core of Exeggutor and Alolan Golem isn't as strong as it used to be.
Huntail - No change.
Misdreavus - No change.
Ninjask - No change.
Quilladin - It's always been a little overlooked but Quilladin's popped up in tours irregularly for a while now and always puts up a good showing. Solid defensive stats, reliable recovery, can wall Torterra and Golem, not much more to say.
Regice - No change.
Relicanth - No change.
Stunfisk - Stunfisk 1v1s a solid portion of the Pokemon in the upper sections of the VR and paraspam is a genuinely viable archetype. One of the more sustainable Electivire counters and a good way to punish U-turn users like the Silvally forms (another hazard setter Defog Silvally-Dragon loses to btw)
Trevenant - SubCurse is a funny meme that has had way more success in SM Cup than it should've, but I think its Band set justifies a C+ placement alone. Offensively much better than the Gourgeist forms and Natural Cure gives it a huge advantage over stall builds in particular which not many other breakers can boast.
Wishiwashi - No change, but alter its icon on the VR to the -school variant please it deserves more respect.
Zebstrika - No change.
Arbok - No change.
Armaldo - No change.
Beartic - No change.
Frogadier - No change.
Hakamo-o - No change.
Murkrow - No change.
Natu - No change.
Noctowl - No change.
Smeargle - No change.
Vibrava - No change.
Vullaby - No change.
Flareon - No change.
Gogoat - No change.
Krokorok - No change, I guess? I don't think I've ever seen this so it could probably be unranked.
Regigigas - No change.
Solrock - No change.
Wormadam-Trash - No change.
Gabite - I'm trying this again, because once again I can't see why you'd want to use this over Golem. Rough Skin isn't a niche, because Golem can hold a Rocky Helmet and achieve the same result but with far better bulk to back it up. Looking at its analysis, it answers Pinsir, Rapidash, and Muk, but so does PhysDef Golem. Combusken also isn't a valid reason, because Golem also beats Physical variants well and both Gabite and Golem lose to Special Combusken. Golem is also able to run Leftovers, giving it far better longevity (especially alongside Protect), isn't nearly as vulnerable to Knock Off, doesn't give Swanna a free switch-in, and is a better Volt Switch blocker due to its lack of a 4x weakness to Ice-type attacks and the aforementioned use of Leftovers. I anticipate that any excuse to keep Gabite is going to be a situational reason that ignores Golem's far higher consistency (e.g. Rough Skin getting vital chip after being knocked off), and I'm confident that any team with Gabite will function better with a PhysDef Golem in its place.
Grumpig - I'm actually a little confused by this one. In the last slate at the end of Gen 7 this Pokemon got two unrank nominations and one UU nomination. Since the majority of the council nommed this to UU or lower I'm not sure why it's still in C-. That aside, it should really just be unranked entirely. There's no justifiable reason to use this especially when it doesn't even beat Combusken reliably.
UU section - The merit in having a UU section is dubious too, by the way. I don't think there's any real difference in the viability of Ampharos or Slaking compared to Gogoat or Regigigas. If it were up to me, Ampharos, Masquerain, Onix, Shedinja, Slaking, Togetic, and Whirlipede would all be moved up to C- and the rest would be unranked.
A to S --- Best mon in the metagame, very splashable and versatile and basically the reason why every team needs a special sponge like Dustox/Bayleef/Lileep/Clefairy..., very hard to check offensively and has a lot of utility with Thunder Wave
B to A/S --- Very versatile, also like Seaking has a good mix of bulk/power/speed that lets it trade very well in the metagame, ability to run physical or special makes it hard to check, I'm honestly torn on this being A or S, but it's not B for sure
B to A --- Another mon that has proven itself in the metagame being a great jack of all trades, its strong, bulky and somewhat fast, helping it 1v1 a lot of metagame threats
B to A --- Filling in for Gloom, a lot of utility and can do offensive and defensive sets well
C to A/B --- Best spiker in the metagame, probably the best lead we have
C to B --- Good anti-lead, Taunt/Explosion makes it very splashable and easy to prevent Spikes.
C to B --- Bulkier and stronger alternative to elekid, decent splashability and performs quite well since its spa is high and the movepool is solid
C to B --- This is really scary and can clean easily after setup, but setting up with it is hard and requires screens support
C to B --- Very scary wincon that also doubles as a very good special sponge
UR to B --- Very good alternative to Taillow that has actual bulk and hits slightly harder.
D to B --- rain is good
D to C --- All those mons have tiny niches that are worthy of C and are given a rise just to remove the D rank entirely
S to A --- Delibird is still a strong force in the metagame but its easy to check offensively with stuff like Elekid and Taillow and should move down a bit since it doesnt drive the meta anymore
A to B --- nowhere near the top of the metagame, this feels more at home with the niche picks on B.
A to B --- huge threat but needs some support to function, if we had subranks i'd put it at B+, but i don't think its A material.
B to C --- downgrade to Taillow and Pidgeotto that has swords dance
B to C --- very hard to pull off consistently, easily revenged by priority and not rly that strong even after belly drum.
B to C --- very niche pick, water spout is strong but most teams pack water checks making this inconsistent
C to UR --- the sample set is so bad lol
D to UR --- outclassed by Castform
- https://pokepast.es/bed70d393ef88aaa
- https://pokepast.es/8d0af4cfdf2bfdc9
