Resource ZU Old Gens Hub - ADV Unfrozen & Quickbans #311

[Medeia]

ADV ZU:

Koffing from B to B+: I honestly think that Koffing deserves to be ranked at least in the same ballpark as Staryu, Nosepass and Delcatty.
It`s ability to blanket check rhyhorn and Cubone + checking Aipom (without choice band), Taillow, Pidgeotto & Grimer in a pinch is really valuable, especially if pairing it with Rhyhorn, Lileep or Nosepass to cut them off some slack. If its special defense wasn`t so terrible to fall to Delibirds Ice Beam i would maybe nominate it higher than that, but i genuinely believe that Koffing`s straight better than most of the B ranks who are either reliant on weather, basically only viable as lead and completely outclassed otherwise (Cyndaquil & Voltorb), face stiff competition with better mons in A tier (Magnemite) or just feel straight up mediocre (Masquerain).

ORAS ZU:

Gigalith: A to A+ at least: This is straight up your most splashable check to broken ass Purugly who deserves to be banned from this tier imo, the most splashable stealth rocker, secondary fire check, best physical wallbreaker with sand force choice band under sand (hf finding a switchin to that thing besides your own Hippo and maybe passive ass Bronzor on balance) that fits to so many teams. It`s straight better than Magmar, less prone to any random Ground+Fighting attacks and therefore imo better than Lairon and probably better than Servine and Klang who are way less splashable and need support to really get going vs many teams in case of Servine (who i think should drop to A).

Also if it wasn`t obvious enough i agree with Purugly raising to S with Electabuzz, and i honestly think that Simisage doesn`t really deserve to stay in S judging from replays in ORAS ZU Cup and my own games. Balance teams don`t seem to have as much trouble to play around it and wear it down with hazards and it`s own life orb recoil as it may look on paper and offense has enough tools to limit it. I`d probably put it around A+ cause it`s still one of the most scary wallbreaker in the tier and nothing in A compares to it.

 

[5Dots]

A -> S
A contentious take, but Persian not having to compete with Electabuzz allows it to stand heads and shoulders for its amazing Speed tier. It’s so fast that only Lopunny (which is still good but not a common sight on teams) can hope to outspeed it, meaning that it can run Adamant nature sets to strengthen its offensive presence. Persian can even afford to run various Hidden Powers like Ground to lure Probopass and Lairons to believe they have gotten free switches, allowing Persian to make the most out of Technician. Nearly every team has and has to account for Persian in the builder, which is shown by how nearly universal it is from replays.

UR -> A
Diglett is a defining Pokemon thanks to Arena Trap, and numerous prominent Pokemon weak to it, such as Luxray, Probopass, and Swalot, now have to be extremely wary of it instantly trapping it. I’ve began running Shed Shell on Probopass to ensure it doesn’t outright lose to it. Diglett also has several viable sets, ranging from Choice Band, to Life Orb, to even Choice Scarf (ensuring it reliably can take on the mirror, Persian, and Lopunny with some chip). BeatsBlack summarized how capable Diglett was really nicely and I’ve been finding it to fit on teams really nicely despite its frailty.

B -> A
With DPP ZU’s low power level, Slaking blends speed, power, and bulk into one slot. Slaking can outspeed and take out threats like Grovyle, Luxray, Whiscash, and pretty much any mon that doesn’t carry Substitute or Protect. It can leverage its bulk to pivot and pursuit Persian and Ghost-types like Gastly and Banette, which makes it even deadlier. BW ZU Slaking was already proven to be quite potent for its benefits, and DPP ZU Slaking isn’t any different.

UR -> B
Bronzor suffers without Eviolite and Psywave in its arnesal. That said, it offers useful role compression as a very bulky Stealth Rock setter, and it’s the sole Steel-type that can avoid getting trapped by Diglett, something Probopass and Lairon can only dream of doing. With the rise of Diglett, Poison and Steel-types have to be more fearful, and Bronzor can take advantage of this using Toxic + Protect sets, enabling it to whittle down Pokemon that lack Substitute, like Persian, Kingler, and Kecleon. Its sole weakness being Fire, an uncommon offensive type in the meta, also makes it even more agonizing to break it down.
Here are two replays I had played against TheFranklin in DPP ZU Cup:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4zu-1576179883-ult7orhokecqoaggejj2r0iw5zufsukpw (1v1ed Granbull)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4zu-1576196265 (Wore down opposing Kecleon and enabled Luxray and Lapras to more easily break through the opposition)

A -> B
Raticate faces broad competition from other Normal-types like Persian and even Granbull as an offensive Normal-type - Guts is powerful, but the utility of a Technician-boosted Fake Out (better priority) and a higher Speed tier tend to be more valuable than the higher offensive presence. Although Granbull has lower Speed and no priority, its access to Close Combat/Earthquake alongside better bulk, and a still respectable Speed stat makes Raticate face more competition. I haven’t seen Raticate been used very much in recent tournaments; conversely, Persian has been the go-to Normal-type based on the aformentioned traits.

 

[Charles A. Theist]

ORAS noms:

Rises

→ S: I think it’s safe to say Purugly is an absolute menace right now. It preys on ORAS’s lack of reliable switch-ins to Normal and Dark coverage, and what few there are can be played around with niche tech or pivoted out via U-Turn. The rise of Spike-stack builds also amplifies this thing’s late-game cleaning capabilities. I’ve also seen a lot of the outcries for this to be banned, to which I’ll say I can get behind that sentiment. It’s become a centric force even beyond Electabuzz’s influence.

→ A+: Premier set-up sweeper. SpDef BU and DD are so annoying to fight against because they have such drastic different counter play. It’s only really held back by its initial speed, but it’s an easy Top 10 mon for me.

→ A+: I don’t think its defensive profile has been accurately rated. In a meta that wants answers to Electrics, Rocks or Steels, or just an all around reliable Stealth Rock that can get chip damage on the opponent, Hippopotas has been able to. It can phase out opponents, it has excellent recovery in Slack Off and pairs really well with our current clerics. It’s on so many team archetypes for a reason, and it continues to get the good tour usage it does for a solid reason.

→ A: Spike-Stack rising to prominence once again means Whirlipede gets way more use. Infestation is great for racking up chip damage alongside Spikes and potential Toxic damage. Steamroller is also an unholy move, allowing it to potentially stall out opposing screens or just getting more infestation damage for free.

→ A: Rock/Fairy is very good defensively right now, especially with the dominance of Purugly. Offensively Fairy and Ground coverage is hard to switch into if you’re not Bronzor, and nails common Pokémon like Scraggy, Vibrava, Trubbish and Lairon. Dual dance and Crobink sets are also pretty decent right now.

→ A: Choice Specs is a menace, Not a lot of Pokémon can take Psychic/Flying STAB, and those that do can get U-Turned on. Outpacing the elemental monkeys and Electabuzz is huge in this environment, letting it revenge kill and clean late game rather easily. Set-up sets with Stored Power are always terrifying if you don’t have a solid Psychic-check.

→ B+/A-: It’s Whirlipede with better defensive typing. I don’t think this needs too much explanation. This thing continues to see good tournament usage, and I imagine it’ll be the same case for future tournaments.

→ B+: This may seem weird to some given the current climate of the metagame, but I think Pidgeot combination of better bulk and speed give it an edge over its fellow avian Fearow. Although it lacks necessary coverage like Drill Run, it makes up for that with Brave Bird STAB and the ability to go special with options like Hurricane, Heat Wave and Hidden Power Ground or Fighting. Bulky variants with Toxic are also a headache if you don’t have a Steel-type on hand, allowing it to put checks like Carbink and Gigalith on a timer.

→ B+: I’ve been kind of mum about this, but I think Ivysaur is a really great anti-meta Pokémon. Grass/Poison is decent coverage alongside Knock Off, and it’s the Sun sweeper that makes the playstyle work IMO.

→ C+/B-: Rapid Spin is a death knell for Spike Stack, which is why having a Ghost-type is key in helping to stave off spin attempts. Frillish manages to walk a fine line between being a fat Water-type check, while still having tools like Taunt to prevent fat builds from abusing it. It helps somewhat that Knock Off Simipour has seen much less usage than in previous metagames, and that Ground-types have picked up more steam, like Hippopotas and Sandshrew.

→ C+/B-: Rapid Spin has been underrated for a while now, but it isn’t without reason. Most of the users are pretty, uh… trash. They either lack recovery or are worn down by hazards themselves to truly consider usage. Tentacool, while still facing those problems, has a godly utility move pool to compensate for its passivity in options like Toxic Spikes, Knock Off and Haze.

→ C+/B-: SBPC is gonna give me crap for it, but I think it has shown to have at least some actual merit. Hazard games are already a mess thanks to Purugly and Competitive users, and Defog can be a detriment in the bid to keep up your hazards. Sandshrew's ability to not only get rid of hazards, but optionally set them and have Knock Off utility without the deadly Ice weakness allows some wiggle room. SpDef with Rest can actually switch in on Electabuzz, which is pretty funny, and can still check non CB Lairon. (I swear I had the draft for this post started before OBB’s post LMAO.

→ C+: decently bulky Electric-type that, unlike its competition, can afford to switch in and check usual Electric-type checks, is pretty gnarly. Can make for decent synergy with Electabuzz too as a Volt-Turn core to overwhelm teams skimping on their Electric counter play.

→ C+: It’s actually a pretty cool Sun sweeper. Knock Off + Drain Punch coverage is great for the majority of the meta, and it has a pretty meaty Wood Hammer to dent most things for partner Sun abusers Sawsbuck and Ivysaur.

→ C/C+: As I pointed out earlier, Rapid Spin has been underrated for a while now. Staryu I think is one even I kind of scoffed off at first, but then I remembered something fairly important: unlike the others, it’s a much more offensive approach to Rapid Spin utility. STAB Hydro Pump and coverage like Ice Beam, Thunder, Psychic and HP Grass is pretty nice variation on top of access to Recover longevity. Analytic also amps up this thing’s threat, 2HKOing Gogoat with LO Ice Beam on switch-in, 2HKO Politoed with Thunder, and having a nice enough speed tier to still be an offensive threat on its own. It’s a really neat Pokémon.

→ C: I got to thinking about why this was ranked at all, it seemed pretty bad on paper, and I honestly did not give a good showing for this in ORAS Cup. That being said, unlike other Rock-types that rely on status to get around Hippopotas and other Grounds, Sudowoodo has a free Wood Hammer. 2HKOing Hippo on switch-in, can invest in Ice Punch to get a guaranteed OHKO on Vibrava, 3HKOs Bronzor with Fire Punch always to prevent Rest stalling. It’s a decent offensive Rock-type in the current environment.

Drops

→ A: Spicy take, but it’s gotten slightly worse. Hippopotas resurgence, everything having Ground/Fighting coverage for it, etc. It’s still a good mon, but it’s become apparent that A+ is a little too high for it.

→ A-: Magic Guard and Regenerator are great abilities. That being said, it’s a little disappointing in play. Its bulk doesn’t really lend it to getting a lot of set-up opportunities, especially since most things can just U-Turn out vs it or Encore it into Acid Armor/Calm Mind. Recover 3 Attacks is OK in theory, but find itself with tough competition from other more prominent special breakers like Swoobat or Vanilluxe. It’s not bad, just hasn’t really shown its worth in A.

→ A-/B+: I think A overstates this Pokémon’s ability. It’s a cool addition to Sun, but it’s not really meta breaking. My biggest gripe is the awkward combination of bulk and speed. It’s not bulky like Gogoat, Servine or Meganium to get switch in opportunities to set up, and it’s not the most impressive speed tier to attempt to pull a sweep. CB and Scarf sets are just a tragedy, way too prediction reliant to call consistent.

→ B+/B: I guess it’s a decent anti-weather and Rain Pokémon? It feels rather out of place among the A ranks for how niche it is. Simipour and Politoed are quite literally everywhere, and can pull off most sets a lot better, honestly.

→ B+: Screens are still decent, but I think the rank is a bit conflated. Set-up sets have not been a thing for a while, and those are generally outdone anyway by better, bulkier Psychic-types or by Swoobat and the elemental monkeys.

→ B-: This has continued to not see any meaningful use. Super Stealth Rock weak and just doesn’t break much of anything with Purugly and Electabuzz around. Maybe it can abuse screens, but it seems pretty mediocre.

→ B-: An Electabuzz and Politoed check is cool. One that is super passive and is prone to every sort of chip under the sun due to its lack of reliable recovery and general passiveness is not cool. Outside a Volt Switch, it also does a lot of nothing, really. Other answers like Whiscash or Marshtomp/Palpitoad can at least annoy teams by setting hazards or sweep late-game.

→ B-: I tried this in the ORAS cup to mid-results. Special tank sets are pitifully weak, and lack key coverage to prevent Steel-type from waltzing in and using you as bait to either set up rocks or set up for the sweep mid to late game. Crogoo sets are also too reliant on Steel-type trapping to make it worth considering over other sweepers.

→ C+: CB is mediocre, and Klutz disruptor is only OK. Healing Wish is the only redeeming factor, but there are few teams that want to actually invest in trying to fit this. Chimecho is better for that anyway.

→ C: Specs sets are pretty prediction reliant, and it’s not even the best choice for Sun builds. Other grasses types like Meganium, Servine and even picks like Ivysaur and Gloom picking up steam doesn’t help much.

→ C/C- (leaning C-): I have been off this gas for a bit now. I still think Sticky Webs are an OK playstyle, just not C+ good. Spike Stack and fatter, bulkier builds have come to the forefront lately, to the point of both undermining and pressuring Webs-based teams.

→ UR: This is a pretty lame Electric-check. Electabuzz and Pikachu are already carrying HP Ice for Hippopotas and Vibrava, so how exactly are you getting this in? It has cool utility like Knock Off, Nuzzle and U-Turn, but its overall frailty makes utilizing its support move pool kind of awkward.

→ UR: Aaronboyer is probably gonna put a hit out on me after this, but I'd die knowing that everyone is aware of how garbage bad this is currently. It tells you a lot when the main set they put on the Smogdex isn't CB (which I would argue is painfully underwhelming), but Nasty Plot. A set that sees so much better and viable competition that it's not even worth considering. The speed tier can only do so much before the pitiful offenses and defensive profile get to me.

→ UR: Taunt Lead with Stealth Rock is very not good. That's it, that is the whole nomination.

→ UR: I have not seen this even once, and I'm willing to bet no one viewing this thread has either. This feels like a more on-paper niche cleric than in actual practice. Wigglytuff/Meganium/Chimecho are just more preferable given their wider support move pool, lack of passivity, and passive recovery in Leftovers.

→ UR: Defog is already pretty questionable right now given Purugly and Electabuzz’s dominance. I’m just left wondering what you’re using this defensively for. There are plenty of Servine checks as is, with an abundance of Poison and Steel-types right now. It doesn’t even particularly do well vs any of our Stealth Rock setters. It’s pretty bad, actually.

→ UR: Another bad normal-type to add to the pile. No one has used it for God knows how long. You have Shadow Ball for Dusclops and Gourgeist I guess, but like… so does Girafarig? But also, you could just use a Normal that has Knock Off like Purugly or even Watchog.

→ UR: Bad Ivysaur and Maractus. Weather Ball is OK until you realize you straight up lose vs Quilladin in a 1v1. I don’t even think it’s necessary for Sun at all.

Things I gotta agree with:

→ B+: Admittedly…. Yeah, I’ve been feeling this for a bit now. Defog is good, don’t get me wrong, but I’ve slowly been let down by its performance. As a Ground-type, it can’t check Electabuzz or the other Electrics, and it’s so easy to get chipped and forced to either Roost or U-Turn out of fear of losing momentum. It’s seen better days.

→ B: Kind of glad to see this continue to get recognition. Flame Body will forever be a cheeky way of neutering opposing Purugly or Vibrava that feel like clicking U-Turn, and the coverage it has is pretty nice. I don’t think it should be any higher right now, but it puts me in a good mood to see continued tour use.

→ B+: I can get behind this. It’s pretty nice thanks to Fire/Ghost coverage and oodles of fun tech and coverage. OBB hit on CM already, but Scarf/Specs builds with Trick can be explored more.

→ A+: Offensive Gigalith is a menace. I’ve helped to show it off a bit in tour, but Sand Force paired with Hippopotas is pretty dirty. It’s also still a fantastic bulky Stealth Rock setter thanks to its great mixed bulk.

Other things I agree with:

→ A
→ A
→ B-

There are also some sets I want to highlight:

@ Life Orb
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SpAtk OR 30 Atk / 30 Def
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch / Hidden Power Ice
- Hidden Power [Grass] / Focus Blast / Psychic / Signal Beam / Toxic
- Volt Switch

Eviolite is a broken item, I think we all know this by now since the meta is so centric around NFEs. While Electabuzz generally prefers having more bulk for Electabuzz mirrors late game, Life Orb manages to help alleviate its 4MSS a bit. LO Ice Punch guarantees a 2HKO on Physdef Vibrava, meaning you can open up your Hidden Power slot for another type like Grass. Even if you want to keep HP Ice, you can always go for the usual options like Focus Blast (Krokorok, offensive Scraggy), Psychic (fat Poisons), Signal Beam (Grass-types like Gogoat or Meganium), or Toxic to wear down its checks for later. It’s extremely customizable and continues to show why Electabuzz is the top dog in ZU.

@ Eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Power-Up Punch
- Shadow Sneak
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch

This isn’t anything by me, I’ve seen 5dots use this the most out of anyone and will be credited with getting me curious on using it. Power-Up Punch Dusclops is nasty for most fat teams and HOs to deal with, mostly because it goes from being a passive wall to a bulky cleaner for late-game. Being a Ghost-type is pretty great when Normal-types like Sawsbuck or Furfrou are around and Purugly Fake Out is always prevalent. It was even able to put in work here, where despite some slight hax with a Thunder paralysis from Staryu, it was able to soundly clean up late game (Ice Punch crit didn’t matter so much, as even a min roll Ice Punch still put Dragonair in range of Shadow Sneak, plus +1 had to crit to even knock out Dusclops at that range).

Also, can someone please commission some non meme artwork for the ORAS OP LMAO.

Edit: Don't want to double post for some quick amendments:

1. : I think fruits and I both showed how good Ivysaur is at tanking and generally annoying various team playstyles. That should be a testament to its current abilities in the meta.

2. → B-/B: Might not seem great at first, but it has an effective niche in the current iteration of ORAS. Lightning Rod is a godsend ability, allowing it to have an Electric Immunity without some of the downsides of having a Ground typing. Can also provide Knock Off support with its Protox set as shown here. Would have brought it in finals had I not chickened out last minute.

The Set

Seaking @ Leftovers
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SpD / 36 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Waterfall
- Toxic
- Protect

 

[Toto]

Hey all, I'm stepping down from ORAS leadership with Charles A. Theist stepping up to take my place. Very much deserved for all their years contributing to ORAS ZU. I'm also pleased to announce that a fruitshop owner will be returning to council and we also have new blood with OranBerryBlissey10 joining. Overall I'm very happy with the work we did this year so far in managing to get the format on PS!, having samples sets uploaded on smogdex, and getting tiering action done on Regigigas. I'm sure Charles A. Theist and the rest of council will continue to do great work so everybody go play ORAS! it a fun gen I swear

 

[Procrastinasian]

Hey all, I'm stepping down from DPP leadership with beauts stepping up to take my place. Very much deserved for their year contributing to DPP ZU. I'm also pleased to announce that beauts will decide who is joining. Overall I'm very happy with the work we did this year so far in managing to get the format on PS!, having samples sets not uploaded on smogdex, but getting tiering action done on Electabuzz. I'm sure beauts and the rest of council will continue to do great work so everybody go play DPP! it a fun gen I swear

 

[File 13]

GSC ZU Challenge Command

Use this command on Pokémon Showdown! to challenge someone to a game of GSC ZU!

/challenge gen2nu @@@ -Xatu, -Weezing, -Primeape, -Dewgong, -Pineco, -Chinchou, -Ninetales, -Kingler, -Hitmonlee, -Dugtrio, -Sudowoodo, -Rapidash, -Magnemite, -Octillery, -Stantler, -Wigglytuff, -Fearow, -Magmar, -Flareon, -Lickitung, -Azumarill, -Gloom, -Dunsparce, -Farfetch'd, -Arbok, -Porygon, -Shuckle, -Graveler, -Exeggcute, -Pupitar, -Persian, -Pidgeot, -Ledian, -Raticate, -Houndour, -Dragonair, -Hitmonchan, -Sneasel, -Furret, -Seadra, -Murkrow, -Venomoth, -Poliwhirl, -Drowzee, -Elekid, -Magcargo, -Tangela, -Abra, -Cubone, -Seaking, -Voltorb, -Aipom, -Machoke, -Flaaffy, -Clefairy, -Rhyhorn, -Omanyte, -Gastly, -Noctowl, -Sunflora, -Hitmontop, -Delibird, -Beedrill, -Charmeleon, -Golbat, -Eevee, -Ariados, -Geodude, -Corsola, -Slowpoke, -Psyduck, -Ponyta, -Mantine, -Staryu, -Poliwag, -Quilava, -Wartortle

 

[Charles A. Theist]

Hey all,

For any that haven't heard here, ORAS ZU has won Community's Choice for RoA Spotlight this month! We cannot be more grateful to the Old Gens community for this exciting opportunity.

For any that are new and looking to get into ORAS, we are currently working on updating various resources. Council is working around the clock to make sure everything gets done. In the meantime, if anyone needs info on ORAS, don't be afraid to head to the ZU chat room or the Discord. We're always happy to assist anyone in need.

Happy laddering guys!

 

[Medeia]

Some ADV ZU thoughts after ADV ZU Cup finals:

- Rhyhorn is definitely the best mon in the tier. It`s one of few normal resists who kinda run this tier and easily the most splashable one, can use a bunch of pokemon as sub fodder and it`s Edegquake + Megahorn coverage makes it pretty much unwallable. Jolly Nature is definitely preferred over Adamant Nature at this point to not straight up lose the 1v1 vs other Rhyhorn and to end lives of Bayleefs without any speed evs (Rhyhorn and Cubone are pretty much the reason why you have to run some speed evs on that thing and why fast Exeggcute`s superior to slower "bulky" Exeggcutes). It becomes even scarier with paralysis support from mons like Chinchou or Exeggcute (Stun Spore), but it`s mixed bag of a typing, speed and atrocious special defense keep it from being too overwhelming imo. Also banning that thing would make the meta much worse and you might as well ban all the normals lol.

- Seaking definitely was one of the mvps of my adv cup run. I honestly think that 4 attacks with Megahorn and Rain Dance with Megahorn > HP Grass are 100x scarier and more effective in the current metagame than classic Rain Dance with HP Grass with all these bulky Chinchous, Bayleefs and Lileeps around, and since no one runs physically defensive Chinchou you can potentially 2 shot it with Megahorn on a prediction or weaken it sufficiently enough for a teammate like Elekid or Horsea on a rain team squad to clean up. Its one of the most scary offensive threats in the tier for sure and Dustox often being too big of setup bait for Rhyhorn and passive as shit helps it quite a lot. It`s also one of the few fire resists in the tier which is kinda important against agility growlithe`s.

- Aipom kinda disappointed me honestly for a S ranked threat. On paper it seems almost too good for this tier, but in practice Rhyhorn, Lileep, Nosepass or even something like Koffing or Shuppet in a pinch seem to be usually enough and i much prefer to use Taillow (another mvp) or Pidgeotto thanks to their resistances and secondary flying stab and Castform due to its versatility. If it were me i`d definitely swap the rankings of Seaking and Aipom.


- Spikestacking offense might be the most scary team-archetype to face, largely cause Staryu is our only spinner worth shit (Pineco`s so hard to justify on teams) and because Snorunt gets at least 1 layer of Spikes against pretty much all leads except like Taunt Aipom. Its winrate in ADV Cup is definitely a reflection on that and the premier offensive threats have a much easier time to overwhelm their limited defensive counterplay with even 1 layer of spikes down.

- Exeggcute`s clearly the worst among the 3 major grass types in the tier. That 4x Bug weakness is huge and makes one Megahorn or HP Bug on the switch enough to lose your supposed ground check to Rhyhorn or Cubone, two huge threats. It also usually loses the 1v1 against the other grass types Bayleef and Lileep and doesn`t have enough bulk to even check rain dance seaking without megahorn or Staryu, Chinchou and Horsea properly. I don`t think it`s justified anymore for it to have the same rank as Bayleef and Lileep (especially the latter who can potentially solowin against a bunch of teams). Lower Eggy to A- Rank where Butterfree currently resides alone and maybe raise Lileep to A+ rank cause it`s the best defensive mon in the tier by far.

- Haven`t really seen much Grimer this whole tournament. I think it looks out of place in the A ranks compared to all the other mons there and i personally think that Koffing in the B ranks is better than it or at least easier to fit into a team thx to levitate and its physical bulk.

 

[innovamania]

Now that GSC ZU cup is over and it doesn't look like GSC ZU will be in ZUPL I'll share some thoughts about the tier from throughout the tournament. Hopefully the few other players who enjoy this tier will enjoy this post as much as I have enjoyed GSC ZU.

- Although it seems pretty centralized and to a degree I slightly agree as I think every team can run togetic magby and corconaw, theirs actually a lot of room for exploration and a lot of other mons you can use.

- I think togetic is the worst of the 3 S ranks. it's still a scary mon and the curse resttalk set can absolutely 6-0 unprepared teams. Most people have some way to deal with it along with the fact that so many pokemon carry super effective coverage for it that you heavily rely on getting the correct sleep talk rolls which doesnt always happen. I think the non curse 2 attacks rest talk set is kind of underutilized and probably fits on more teams then curse rest talk does.

- I think koffing is rated too high on the VR. It's nice as a blanket "physical" check to an extent and it hard walls non hp ground weepinbell but their honestly about 50/50 between hp ground and giga drain and koffing just gets worn down too easily. I honestly found myself wanting grimer more then koffing purely for its better all round bulk and better attack but this might just be personal preference.

-dratini is probably too low in b and deserves b+. I honestly used to think it was really bad but after playing against it more ive been more impressed with it. it has a good movepool is nice seconday magby check and can spread paralysis for something like victreebell or sandslash. obviosuly has its issues still but its definitely better then I thought it would be.

-tentacool seems lowkey underrated. I didnt get to use it and saw it used more then I used it but it actually can be pretty scary especially when you give a chance to sd. decent special lets it survive moves like magby tpunch or smoochum psychic on top of a decent speed tier. I think barrier has potential too over sub and in fact i almost got swept by a barrier sd tenta in my run. biggest issue is that finding a turn to sd and the problem with running sd and barrier is how hard it is to find the oppurtunity to click sd and barrier as you ussually only get 1 free turn with tenta but overall it can really scary and is underrated.

That's all I have for now. I'll post my own personal VR at a different date and explain my choices. I might also post some teams I both used and didn't get a chance to use if their is enough interest.

 

[BeatsBlack]

Usage stats from GSC and ADV Cups! Some games were voided due to illegal mons or not being compatible with the tool, like a youtube video

Overall GSC Usage

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Croconaw           |  113 |  85.61% |  50.44% |
| 2    | Magby              |  104 |  78.79% |  53.85% |
| 3    | Smoochum           |   79 |  59.85% |  51.90% |
| 4    | Togetic            |   76 |  57.58% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Bayleef            |   61 |  46.21% |  54.10% |
| 6    | Koffing            |   49 |  37.12% |  51.02% |
| 7    | Onix               |   37 |  28.03% |  48.65% |
| 8    | Butterfree         |   28 |  21.21% |  39.29% |
| 9    | Diglett            |   27 |  20.45% |  48.15% |
| 10   | Doduo              |   25 |  18.94% |  40.00% |
| 11   | Dratini            |   23 |  17.42% |  52.17% |
| 12   | Sandshrew          |   20 |  15.15% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Tentacool          |   17 |  12.88% |  64.71% |
| 14   | Weepinbell         |   16 |  12.12% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Teddiursa          |   15 |  11.36% |  53.33% |
| 15   | Grimer             |   15 |  11.36% |  33.33% |
| 17   | Mareep             |   13 |   9.85% |  30.77% |
| 18   | Growlithe          |    9 |   6.82% |  22.22% |
| 19   | Nidorino           |    8 |   6.06% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Ivysaur            |    6 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Parasect           |    6 |   4.55% |  16.67% |
| 22   | Yanma              |    3 |   2.27% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Natu               |    2 |   1.52% | 100.00% |
| 23   | Ledyba             |    2 |   1.52% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Snubbull           |    2 |   1.52% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Seel               |    2 |   1.52% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Vulpix             |    2 |   1.52% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Spinarak           |    1 |   0.76% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Rattata            |    1 |   0.76% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Igglybuff          |    1 |   0.76% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Pichu              |    1 |   0.76% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Cleffa             |    1 |   0.76% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Machop             |    1 |   0.76% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Tyrogue            |    1 |   0.76% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Mankey             |    1 |   0.76% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Nidorina           |    1 |   0.76% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Meowth             |    1 |   0.76% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Shellder           |    1 |   0.76% |   0.00% |

• Missing 1 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from LOUNA.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from JONAMON 25.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from TUTHUR.
• Missing 3 Pokemon from JONAMON 25.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from AARONBOYER.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from ZULT31K DOTS.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from BLAINE500.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from CZIM.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from 5DOTS.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from DRAGONILLIS.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from BLAINE500.
• Missing 3 Pokemon from CZIM.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from CZIM.

Lead Usage

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Leads                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Magby                   |   54 |  40.91% |  68.52% |
| 2    | Butterfree              |   27 |  20.45% |  37.04% |
| 3    | Doduo                   |    9 |   6.82% |  22.22% |
| 4    | Smoochum                |    7 |   5.30% |  57.14% |
| 4    | Croconaw                |    7 |   5.30% |  42.86% |
| 6    | Mareep                  |    4 |   3.03% |  75.00% |
| 7    | Nidorino                |    3 |   2.27% |  66.67% |
| 7    | Bayleef                 |    3 |   2.27% |  33.33% |
| 7    | Diglett                 |    3 |   2.27% |   0.00% |
| 10   | Teddiursa               |    2 |   1.52% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Yanma                   |    2 |   1.52% |   0.00% |
| 10   | Togetic                 |    2 |   1.52% |   0.00% |
| 13   | Sandshrew               |    1 |   0.76% | 100.00% |
| 13   | Natu                    |    1 |   0.76% | 100.00% |
| 13   | Onix                    |    1 |   0.76% | 100.00% |
| 13   | Parasect                |    1 |   0.76% |   0.00% |
| 13   | Nidorina                |    1 |   0.76% |   0.00% |
| 13   | Grimer                  |    1 |   0.76% |   0.00% |
| 13   | Meowth                  |    1 |   0.76% |   0.00% |
| 13   | Shellder                |    1 |   0.76% |   0.00% |
| 13   | Vulpix                  |    1 |   0.76% |   0.00% |

---------------------------------------------------------

Overall ADV Usage

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Rhyhorn            |   67 |  52.34% |  47.76% |
| 2    | Seaking            |   51 |  39.84% |  52.94% |
| 3    | Taillow            |   43 |  33.59% |  46.51% |
| 4    | Chinchou           |   42 |  32.81% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Aipom              |   41 |  32.03% |  36.59% |
| 6    | Castform           |   38 |  29.69% |  50.00% |
| 7    | Bayleef            |   36 |  28.12% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Snorunt            |   33 |  25.78% |  57.58% |
| 9    | Exeggcute          |   32 |  25.00% |  46.88% |
| 10   | Elekid             |   31 |  24.22% |  51.61% |
| 11   | Dustox             |   29 |  22.66% |  41.38% |
| 12   | Delibird           |   28 |  21.88% |  53.57% |
| 13   | Nosepass           |   23 |  17.97% |  43.48% |
| 14   | Voltorb            |   19 |  14.84% |  52.63% |
| 14   | Grimer             |   19 |  14.84% |  42.11% |
| 14   | Growlithe          |   19 |  14.84% |  36.84% |
| 17   | Cyndaquil          |   18 |  14.06% |  38.89% |
| 18   | Pidgeotto          |   17 |  13.28% |  64.71% |
| 19   | Horsea             |   14 |  10.94% |  42.86% |
| 20   | Lileep             |   13 |  10.16% |  61.54% |
| 20   | Shuppet            |   13 |  10.16% |  61.54% |
| 22   | Cubone             |   12 |   9.38% |  41.67% |
| 22   | Delcatty           |   12 |   9.38% |  41.67% |
| 24   | Butterfree         |    9 |   7.03% |  44.44% |
| 25   | Sunflora           |    7 |   5.47% |  57.14% |
| 25   | Bagon              |    7 |   5.47% |  42.86% |
| 25   | Staryu             |    7 |   5.47% |  42.86% |
| 28   | Koffing            |    5 |   3.91% |  60.00% |
| 28   | Zigzagoon          |    5 |   3.91% |  60.00% |
| 28   | Pineco             |    5 |   3.91% |  40.00% |
| 31   | Luvdisc            |    4 |   3.12% |  75.00% |
| 31   | Magnemite          |    4 |   3.12% |  50.00% |
| 33   | Spoink             |    3 |   2.34% |  33.33% |
| 34   | Teddiursa          |    2 |   1.56% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Farfetch’d         |    2 |   1.56% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Meowth             |    2 |   1.56% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Onix               |    2 |   1.56% |  50.00% |
| 34   | Snubbull           |    2 |   1.56% |  50.00% |
| 34   | Nuzleaf            |    2 |   1.56% |   0.00% |
| 34   | Spearow            |    2 |   1.56% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Masquerain         |    1 |   0.78% | 100.00% |
| 41   | Aron               |    1 |   0.78% | 100.00% |
| 41   | Natu               |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Parasect           |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Clefairy           |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Machop             |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Baltoy             |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Mankey             |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Croconaw           |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Rattata            |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |

• Missing 1 Pokemon from ANANTA21.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from LANDON✘A21.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from 5DOTS.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from ARCE9.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from ORANBERRYBLISSEY10.
• Missing 4 Pokemon from XBOSSARUX.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from TEMPORAL TOTODILE.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from AMPLESAMUEL.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from TUTHUR.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from ARCE9.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from OOZPNG.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from OOZPNG.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from TXITXAS.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from SMETHANREAL.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from HUARGUENSY.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from GARANCE.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from ORANBERRYBLISSEY10.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from ANAANTA.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from ANAANTA.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from ORANBERRYBLISSEY10.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from ANAANTA.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from ANAANTA.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from ANAANTA.

Lead Usage

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Leads                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Snorunt                 |   28 |  21.88% |  64.29% |
| 2    | Aipom                   |   21 |  16.41% |  38.10% |
| 3    | Voltorb                 |   17 |  13.28% |  52.94% |
| 3    | Cyndaquil               |   17 |  13.28% |  41.18% |
| 5    | Castform                |   11 |   8.59% |  63.64% |
| 6    | Elekid                  |   10 |   7.81% |  50.00% |
| 7    | Growlithe               |    6 |   4.69% |  66.67% |
| 8    | Butterfree              |    3 |   2.34% |  66.67% |
| 8    | Nosepass                |    3 |   2.34% |  33.33% |
| 10   | Onix                    |    2 |   1.56% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Exeggcute               |    2 |   1.56% |   0.00% |
| 10   | Spearow                 |    2 |   1.56% |   0.00% |
| 13   | Seaking                 |    1 |   0.78% | 100.00% |
| 13   | Meowth                  |    1 |   0.78% | 100.00% |
| 13   | Delibird                |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 13   | Parasect                |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 13   | Pineco                  |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 13   | Staryu                  |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |

I'll share my thoughts on both metas after classic playoffs, so I'll hold off on any comments for now.

 

[Charles A. Theist]

Hey there all,

Firstly, We now have a not jokey OP banner by the amazing Kolohe! Show him some support and appreciation for the awesome work he’s put in!

Secondly, we’ve added new sample teams to the OP courtesy of two of our council members, 5dots and OranBerryBlissey10, always appreciative of your contributions. We’re still working on resource updates and a new VR update, so stay tuned for that in the near future!

Also, as a reminder: if you have any teams you would like to submit for the Sample Team resource, don’t be afraid to make a post in the thread. Council is always willing to look them over!

 

[czim]

With ZUPL around the corner and classic finishing I will just be dumping teams for GSC and ADV that I used on playoffs. Those are cool teams though, so I hope you guys use them

- GSC semis vs Descending - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2nu-1604643171-l2mr73t7gw6p5z41gjnyrjeq046yw4tpw

Team was based around the idea of SD Tentacool + dual attack Togetic. So you lure Haze users like Koffing and Grimer using Togetic and chip them so Tentacool can break/clean. Rest of the team is pretty standard outside of Lead Croconaw, which imo is a cool pick because it has a solid matchup vs common leads like Magby and Butterfree.

- GSC finals vs Danny - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2nu-1609146882-kl013lgfws8elwy80tl76c8e88f1egtpw

This is very similar to the team I used on semis, but the twist is Curse Togetic and Weepinbell pressuring the Hazers. It also features a standard Magby+Smoochum offensive core with Thief Smoochum to make Croconaw's life harder. This worked perfectly in the game, when I put a Koffing to sleep and stole Croconaw's Leftovers early on and Curse Togetic went ham.

- ADV semis vs Descending - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-1604659916-kbb4k1codeqtg5sqvtnkoue9wlw6s8npw

So this one is probably my favorite team I built this tournament. Lead Taillow is pretty damn cool and put a lot of pressure into the game after I managed to heavily chip the Rhyhorn with HP Grass. Sunflora is something I wanted to use in sunless teams before (and Descending too apparently lol), and it has HP Ice over HP Fire so it can actually heavily damage Rhyhorn without setting up Sun. Rest of the team is fairly standard to abuse Lead Taillow's breaking power, with CB Aipom and Curse Grimer loving the Normal-resists getting nuked.

- ADV finals vs Danny - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-1609135078-4jhhi2zx6wc7m2dq95m90hobg121ve3pw

This team was meant to be very annoying vs Rain (because I thought Danny was either using that or something with Spoink vs me). Lead Growlithe was maybe not the best pick but I figured it'd be helpful in case I predicted wrong. The star of the team is the Castform though (just ignore that it got dual critted), it absolutely stops Rain with this set and the EVs ensure that Double-Edge does a ton of damage to stuff that doesn't care about Boltbeam (it notably 2hkoes Dustox, heavily damages Chinchou and OHKOes offensive Spoink). Physically defensive Staryu is also very underused and is arguably the best Rhyhorn check in the tier since it almost always avoids the 2hko from non-adamant Rhyhorn and has reliable recovery. Grimer is also a 2 attacks set because the team struggled a bit vs Magnemite so I just wanted to be safe in case it showed up.

Hope you guys enjoy the new squads.

 

[BeatsBlack]

Just going to write a little bit on some of the metas after going through Classic. sorry no SM i'm not qualified in any way on the topic.

ORAS ​

I don't really play this gen all too much, but I've dabbled in it more often than SM through the testing I've done with other people. Take my words with a grain of salt.

- yh this thing goes berserko with the addition of a newly buffed knock off in its arsenal. Defiant having more chances to proc due to Defog gives it better punish opportunities than it previously had in BW (when it was there). I completely understand the calls for S rank/bans. The checks to it have hardly any sustainability with how good spikes are.

- Agree with putting this higher, actual beast mon. Can be really flexible with its EVs and item imo. For example, I wanted to replicate its future ability Sand Stream and gave it an Assault Vest. Turns out it kind of just tanks w/e the fuck it wants to because of that. Helps mitigate Purugly early on because of typing + natural bulk. Explosion is also funny because a good portion of mons fold like lawnchairs to it.

BW
​

Just something to note before I begin, under the Sample Teams tab "Archived Teams", it mentions that the teams are still legal to use. This would be incorrect since a few teams have Dragonair or Articuno on them. Nothing too critical but figured it might be worth mentioning to avoid any confusion for unfamiliar players.

The mons that were recently ranked are currently without sample sets, so I figured I throw up a few as placeholders. I'm unsure how "correct" some of these are, like Ivysaur and Clefairy, but they should be relatively close to how they normally operate.

- pls run adamant. Already mentioned this but Jet helps snag kills vs frailer, faster targets like Emolga and Simisear while Night Slash cuts through bulkier builds with Grumpig or Frillish.

Beartic @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Superpower
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Jet / Night Slash


Ivysaur @ Eviolite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Knock Off
- Synthesis
- Sludge Bomb
- Leech Seed


Clefairy @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Knock Off
- Seismic Toss
- Thunder Wave / Stealth Rock / Toxic / Encore

- So help me god I don't know what this mfer wants optimally, but these specific EVs ensure you always live Silk Scarf Persian Fake Out into Return. Obviously not the most reliable set but it's something.

Bibarel @ Mental Herb
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 200 HP / 56 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Scald
- Thunder / Thunder Wave

I'm sure someone else knows what the other C ranks like Lopunny runs because I sure as hell don't. As for veterans on the VR, I have a few ideas to throw around as well. These are sets that I've used and had a degree of success with, which is why I'm suggesting them to others. At least adds a bit of diversity to the current samples for them, specifically Luxray I had in mind.

- It's a neat setup mon that, with taunt, does not care for Worm-Trash or similar passive mons.

Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Atk / 88 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Frustration
- Crunch
- Taunt / Earthquake

- Can easily go with more speed to cover base 60s, but the extra bulk and power you squeeze from this are nice. I prefer HP Ice over Grass so you aren't completely stonewalled by Ivysaur, Gloom, and Taunt Emolga. Speaking of which, it's a pretty good Emolga check with Intimidate and resistance to both stabs. It can completely dominate in the right matchups.

Luxray @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
- Protect
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Grass]

- HP ground is literally just for lairon iirc, but Illumise can certainly do more than just set sun. Articuno being gone is nice for it as well.

Illumise (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Bug Buzz
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Encore

- Unironically a fun wincon. Just hit Hurricane.

Pelipper @ Life Orb
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Hurricane
- Roost
- Agility

- Super meme but I have definitely gotten mileage out of it as a surprise. Can nail stuff like Persian or Emolga before they pivot out.

Solrock @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake
- Explosion

DPP

​

I'm very content with the Electabuzz ban that happened a while back. That mon was incredibly difficult to answer reliably to the point that you were better off just trying to out-offense it. DPP always stuck out to me in ZUPL because it's the only preview-less gen. I feel like you can make anything here work with the right strategy, which is always entertaining to watch from a spectator POV. I actually prepared quite a bit for this gen in Classic, but then Jon put me down R1. I was able to use my teams in playoffs tho alongside some test games here and there. I'll be mentioning a few mons and include a set if it's something neat. Not noms, but stuff people might want to be aware of or try out.

- A Stealth Rocker that's pretty flexible with its item and EVs imo. Rocks and Lava Plume are the only moves I wouldn't drop from it given how punishing burn is. I think you can make some arguments for Earth Power vs Earthquake (the latter of which nails a spdef tank like Kecleon) and it has some nice options for the fourth move slot. Roar, Yawn, Will-o-Wisp, Protect all have their respective uses for either itself or the team. You can also go the nuclear option and evaporate something with Explosion (except ghosts aha). I don't think Electabuzz being gone will hurt its viability that much, especially since it wasn't even reliable towards beating Buzz.

- I like BW Luxray a lot. I love DPP Luxray a lot more. Similar to BW, it has a lot of games where it takes over with the right matchup. 95 special attack doesn't seem all that good nowadays but it rails stuff in an eviolite-less gen. I still use a similar set as in BW, albeit with a bit more speed given metagame conditions. Definitely more balanced than Electabuzz for sure, as it has to pick between HP Ice (Vibrava, Gloom, Shelgon), HP Grass (Whiscash, Marshtomp), or HP Water (Camerupt).

Luxray @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 88 HP / 244 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
- Protect
- Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Water] / Hidden Power [Ice]

- Very good hazard setter, arguably the best for hyper-offense. STAB surf threatens out a ton of other rockers and normal resist prevents it from being fake out + edge'd by Persian immediately. Get rocks and hopefully a spike, that's a huge advantage from the get-go. I run HP rock in the last slot just so I don't give Lapras free subs.

- Pretty fast electrics with Nasty Plot + Baton Pass. I could see a situation where these guys endgame some teams. That +2 Lifeorb Tbolt hit different.

Plusle @ Life Orb
Ability: Plus
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Baton Pass
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

- Cool mon. Inner Focus prevents Persian from getting free damage with a side of flinch, which can be pretty impactful at lead. It gets access to Grass Knot which lets it flip Lapras and Wailord on their heads, albeit doing less damage to Crawdaunt or Whiscash. Trick allows it to heavily cripple something for its teammates, opening up potential win paths. CM pass is also something you have to be wary off, one of the better stat passers thanks to its speed.

- Guess which one hits the hardest with flying STAB.

THE SWEEPER SALOON

- One of the first thing that comes to my mind when I think "wincon". Most times you only need 1 DD to put yourself in a winning spot, unless your opponent happens to have one of the few niche checks to it. Furthermore, Hyper Cutter prevents Intimidate users from prematurely ending a potential sweep. Poor speed makes it a victim to revenge killing from faster scarfers or Persian, the latter naturally outspeeding +1 Craw. Waterfall and Crunch are easy brings while the fourth slot usually falls to X-Scissor or Superpower. The former hits harder vs pure Grasses while Superpower nails Lapras and Slaking, more common sights. The item slot could fall to Life Orb for more breaking power or Lum berry for setup opportunities vs status inducers. Another variable to this is Crawdaunt's ability to lure its DD checks with a special set, given it has a respectable stat of 90.

Crawdaunt @ Life Orb / Lum Berry
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Superpower / X-Scissor

- If Crawdaunt is "wincon", then Kingler is "unpredictable". Both crabs have the same abilities with similar purposes of sweeping, yet Kingler's better natural speed allows it to slot into other roles that Crawdaunt would be subpar at. Scarf and Band are easy examples. Other scary sets include double dance, obviously harder to pull off but grants the biggest reward.

Kingler @ Life Orb / Lum Berry
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Agility
- Crabhammer
- Superpower
- Rock Slide / X-Scissor / Swords Dance / Return

- It's ranked low despite DD/Outrage/brick break seemingly able to wipe the floor with everything in the tier. Its speed tier is pretty shit for a DDer but I still think it can find opportunities to set up with its meaty defense stat. I know I had some teams with it (they're gone), but I would not be surprised if this mon were to rise in the future given the right usage.

- One look at the VR tells you that nearly nothing resists both STABs, with the exception of Pelipper. A pretty good late game cleaner that can go either offensive spectrum. Physical is more consistent with accuracy while special loads up on firepower, so the decision is up to the player. Running Adamant/Modest lets you outpace Scarf Kingler and below at +2 speed. Opting for Jolly/Timid gives you a jumpstart on base 85s and below, which is a fairly small pool of relevant Pokémon. Protect covers you from Persian fake out and scarf Slaking picking you off, but the easiest coverage option to run outside of this would be thunder punch/hidden power electric.

Combusken @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Focus Blast
- Fire Blast
- Protect / Hidden Power [Electric]

- Remember how Rampardos got banned from early DPP? You can still use the Lite version of it. The tiny difference in base speed compared to Combusken (55 vs 58) lets you actually outrun base 80 Scarfers like Gastly while running a neutral speed nature. Head Smash has some crazy fucking calcs too which is why it's on the set. Aside from this shit, a lead set is definitely usable/has been used with moderate success iirc.

Cranidos @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Head Smash

- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4zu-1564909055-39sbpuwp8p0aul7y4vle66u4jegk42cpw. I'm sorry.

fear of god (Zigzagoon) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Gluttony
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Belly Drum
- Seed Bomb
- Protect

In regard to other noms:

- First off, I agree with S rank. Comparable to Purugly in ORAS, just not at as extreme. Second, if you're using Hidden power ground to dispatch steels/rocks, make sure you're running 28 IVs in special attack to get the Technician boost. This is easily the best revenge killer in the tier, even outspeeding base 60 speed mons with a +1 boost (or scarf). Persian functioned pretty well in BW despite the extra bulky mons with eviolite, so it's no surprise that it's even better in DPP where it doesn't have to worry about that.

- Yea this should drop. It's really dangerous as a breaker but the omnipresence of Persian, let alone a single scarfer, drastically cuts its time on the field when considering hazards + Guts residual. Doesn't really have a way to hit steels or rocks either.

- Agree with A rank. Already mentioned previously what it does, but essentially it traps high value targets for its teammates.

- I think C is fine. In the lead slot, it's similar to Girafarig. While Girafarig has superior stats and more set options, Abra has access to Taunt to prevent hazards from going up (Magic Coat and Mental Herb don't block it, they suck this gen). Spacial already covered it here, so I'll direct you to that if you want any more info on it.

- Another UR mon that can be ranked. Unsure about B given how incredibly passive it is without Psywave or Eviolite, but I think C is definitely justifiable. This does have a lot going for it though, ground immunity on a steel is pretty huge so the argument for B is certainly there. Need to see it more.

ADV

​

There's potential for a LOT of drops from PU's recent shift and UU's current state with NFE clause removal/UUBL retesting. I'm excited to see what the future holds (even if it's over the course of a couple years). The tier has some pretty clear playstyles like Rain and Sun, the former of which is a point of contention because of how difficult it can be to answer.

- Naturally the fastest mon in the tier and has Taunt to prevent Spikes or other shenanigans. Explosion is a great tool to get rain abusers in almost immediately as well, potentially taking something down with you. Instead of running something like Thunder in the last slot, I prefer HP Water to prevent rocks like Rhyhorn or Nosepass from absorbing boom, which wastes a precious turn of rain. Specifically for lead Rhyhorn, you avoid having to play this mindgame:
A: Taunt to prevent Sub and risk dying to earthquake (no rain)
B: Rain Dance as Rhyhorn subs, giving up a ton of rain turns + health on whatever has to break the substitute.

- The defacto rain abuser. I agree with much of what was said by Descending. It has very respectable bulk, speed, and power given it's one of the only fully evolved pokemon. This lets it do dumb shit like 1v1 Chinchou, a mon that should be one of rain's more problematic stopgaps. Chincou COULD run Physdef investment, but this gimps it vs basically everything else. There are some other answers like bulky Castform, but these all essentially trade 1 for 1. It's not restricted to rain either, it functions just fine with other sets like SubTox.

-The mafioso of rain. It's a tad stronger than Seaking, but folds to literally any attack. I only have bad experiences with this mon because it misses every hydro. Definitely a member on any rain team tho.

- This is merely theory, but it's like the only rain sweeper that can take advantage of Choice Band. Very little resists Rock in this tier and the mons that do are washed by Surf, even without investment. HP Bug is nice for grasses, don't really need anything else afaik. Run rapid spin or some shit idk. The set below outspeeds up to Voltorb under rain. The remaining bulk lets you live stuff like CB Aipom Brick Break after 1 layer of spikes. Perhaps SD is also something you can make work, but this is more immediate. Not trying to nom it higher but could be worth experimenting with.

Kabuto @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def / 76 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Surf
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Rapid Spin / Return

- growlithe my beloved. It's pretty well established already as an agility sweeper with Intimidate creating setup opportunities and a powerful Fire Blast to boot. However, in my endeavors to find a new lead that would be able to handle CB Aipom, Snorunt, and the rarer Butterfree, I came across the dog. I even went and made a pastebin detailing the potential matchups it would face which you can find here. Is it a bit scuffed? Perhaps. Does it work effectively? I'd say so. Crunch is specifically to hit Spoink btw, something that Cyndaquil cannot do.

Growlithe @ Lum Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 80 Def / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Toxic / Crunch
- Overheat

- No doubt an incredibly punishing mon. Is at the forefront of taking advantage of the choice banders that would otherwise make this tier their playground, such as Aipom, Taillow, Delibird, and more. However, that x4 weakness. Oh man. You can run HP Water or Grass on anything that Rhyhorn would want to switch in on and you'll be able to nail it. To name a few: Taillow, Wish Delcatty, and Dustox. But this does show how important it is to be able to hit this guy. Giving it a free sub is no bueno. The fast Rhyhorns have already been explained as to why they're good, so here's some cute uno-reverse card shit: 252 SpA Elekid Hidden Power Grass vs. 64 HP / 252+ SpD Rhyhorn: 268-316 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Very entertaining to pull this off in a game, I assure you.

Rhyhorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 64 HP / 68 Atk / 252 SpD / 124 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Protect
- Megahorn

- Super deserving of its spot in S because of how much of a flex role it can play. Need a rain check? Done. Sun? In the same slot. Bulky mixed attacker? Why not. CB breaker? Sure! Definitely gives Rhyhorn a run for its money as best in the tier imo.

Noms:

- Really underrated imo. It's the second fastest mon in the tier and hey! it sets rain AND can make offensive use of it! This is great for late game setting where something like Elekid or the base 85 camp could be a pain otherwise. The lack of Hydro Pump hurts how much damage it can dish out, but really the main draw is the ability to set weather. I've ran a SubPetaya set outside of rain and it's alright? It's a faster option than Elekid which might be all you want. Make sure you're using 4 HP EVs for the Sub set to proc Petaya at 25%. I'd push to raise it to like B-. It's not necessary on rain but I think it helps alleviate some of the issues rain could face with regaining weather control back.

Luvdisc @ Mystic Water
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Rain Dance

- A very good support mon on rain to switch into Sunflora. Has Rain Dance + Explosion combo, so it's still useful outside of the sun matchup. Sludge Bomb is good stab for the tier and HP Water is nice for Rhyhorn, especially in rain. It can also run CurseTalk sets, although I find these to be a tad lackluster given the astounding strength of our physical attackers. That said, I don't think it should be as high as it is currently. As Descending brought up, Koffing seems better overall with its ground immunity, better physical bulk, and the ability to spread burns with Will-o-Wisp. For the reasons I mentioned at the beginning, I think Grimer should reside in B with its rain buddies Horsea and Voltorb. If CurseTalk starts making waves on its own, then I would go with B+ instead.

- C to C+ imo. Has better chances to set up compared to Bagon thanks to its normal and flying resists. While it's not fast enough to outspeed the entire meta at +1, it's still enough to outrun the ever-important base 85s. STAB slidequake is obviously good and Hidden Power Bug hits grass types a extra bit harder, especially Eggy. Given you likely won't be taking any hits after setting up, you might want to opt for a damage boosting like Silver Powder to increase your odds of killing, if ever slightly. It likely won't be pulling DD sweeps every game but can certainly close games out akin to its final form.

- This surely can work with what it has, more than the other C ranks. Flail + SubSalac go hand in hand and the metagame's landscape is very kind to it. There's only 1 ghost (frail), the rocks can be pressured by the other normals/CBers, and the steels are both x4 weak to ground (and also uncommon but w/e). As such, I think finding the chance to sweep isn't that extreme given you come in vs a slower mon. If you can snag a swords dance, you're sitting pretty. I'd like to see it in C+, although I understand if some are skeptical due to the lack of an immediate STAB attack.

Farfetch’d @ Salac Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Flail
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Swords Dance

- Powerful little guy but it lacks the defensive profile of Rhyhorn. I'd much rather see it in A- or possibly B+.

- I got my ass boxed up by this thing at lead. Thick Fat and Taunt lets it be a nuisance to Cyndaquil and especially Snorunt. It's one of the few users of Calm Mind and STAB Psychic is nearly unresisted in the tier. If you really want to ensure its potency, the 2 steels types that resist it both get bopped by EQ from magnet pull Nosepass. Deserving of B at the very least. Can easily see B+ or higher.

- Drop to A- as Descending said. x4 bug weakness hampers how effective it can be as a physical wall, especially to some of the major physical threats.

- Agree with the rise to B+ for reasons mentioned already.

GSC

​

This tier is one of the more divisive old gens due to essentially the generational time and mechanics. Being the second generation, the cast of pokemon is not as large as future iterations and games tend to take longer due to maxed stats across the board. This latter point is likely why you tend to see more hax in GSC, there's just more opportunity for it to occur. Regardless, I think the tier is enjoyable to play and finding new things is always exciting.

- #1 in lead usage for GSCup 1 by a longshot. One cup later and it's half of the current #1, that being Magby. Butterfree's role as a lead was to inflict status effectively with Sleep powder and Stun spore, making it a great support pokemon in the early game. One would assume Magby's leap in lead usage is because it has a powerful Fire Blast and naturally threatens Butterfree, right? Surprisingly, Butterfree tanks fire blast (even charcoal boosted) and threatens to heavily cripple Magby pending it lands. Stun Spore is more threatening imo since lead Magby usually run Mint berry + Rest, making sleep powder ineffective turn 1. Depending on your team, giving up a large portion of Butterfree's HP to paralyze Magby can be a huge tradeoff in your favor.

- I initially brushed this off because of its awful speed, combined with its mediocre bulk and attack. It really struggles to switch into anything and accomplish much because of this. Let alone common pokemon like Croconaw or Weepinbell, it's somehow slower than Sandshrew too? wtf?? What I didn't consider was its role as a dedicated lead slot for Paralysis teams. When compared to the most commons leads, it automatically threatens all of them. It hits Croconaw and Butterfree hard enough with Thunderbolt to 2hko them while dumpstering Doduo. While Doduo can initially Endure to get its base 200 Flail, it also risks being Thunder Waved instead - essentially a KO for the frail bird (Substitute and Flail are incompatible, so you cannot avoid this by Subbing down unless you forgo Flail). That last point about Thunder Wave also applies to both Magby and Smoochum; both DREAD being paralyzed since their speed is extremely important for pressuring opponents. Lastly, electric is the only type to hit both Croconaw and Togetic super effectively so having STAB on it is pretty nice. As for the set, Tbolt and Twave are obligatory. HP Water nails Onix while HP Ice gives you a way to damage Grass types like Bayleef or Weepinbell.

Mareep @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 26 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Water]
- Sleep Talk

- Arguably the best poison resists in the tier since the grounds fear Weepinbell's Razor Leaf and Tentacool's Hydro Pump. More notably, they're part of the few pokemon who get instant recovery, in the form of Morning Sun/Moonlight. In conjunction with Thief, another great utility move that steals Leftovers, their ability to take hits is heavily bolstered, especially in the face of Pokémon like Croconaw. Other options include Lovely Kiss or Hidden Power Rock, the latter more suited for Nidorino with its higher attack and ability to speed tie Smoochum.

- With STAB, Sandshrew is our strongest user of earthquake. Boasting the rare Swords Dance and respectable physical bulk lets it take advantage of paralyzed/slower teams, however I wanted to try something new by placing it in the lead slot. Unless Magby wants to die immediately, it's forced to switch out and Butterfree is inclined to do the same with the threat of rock slide. This gives you an immediate opportunity to thief a big target like Croconaw or Bayleef, putting the pressure on them from the get-go. I'm still looking at the possibilities for filler like para-fishing with Body Slam.

- Something I noticed this GSCup was the usage of hidden power ground, which notably 2HKOs Magby (in comparison to HP water's 3hko) and hits Tentacool just as hard. This comes at the cost of hitting Onix but this seems worth it with how often they explode vs Croconaw/Bayleef. A game changer for sure since Tentacool was able to eat a couple thunder punches with its higher SpDef.

- There's a lot I can say here, but frankly I just want to get to the point. Aside from the standard RestTalk Crocs that run two of ice beam, surf or rock move (rock slide or ancient power), there's been a new set popping up here and there. That set would be GSC's all too familiar Curse, with the goal of taking advantage against other Croconaws by getting essentially free boosts. If you want to immediately threaten grasses or Onix, you can still opt for beam or surf at the cost of sleep talk.

- Worse at breaking due to fellow grass/poison Weepinbell's access to Sludge Bomb and lacks Bayleef's better physical bulk and ground resistance. Despite this, it's faster than Croconaw, unlike Weepinbell, and has access to Sleep Powder over Bayleef. This lets it balance the sleep/SD capabilities of Weepinbell and ability to threaten Croconaw more efficiently like Bayleef in one slot. I put 3 moves in the fourth slot for whatever reason you might want. Body Slam offers a way to threaten pokemon after you've already slept something, Double-Edge is the strongest move you have available, and Return is a balance between strength and sustainability. All 3 have certain scenarios where they're better than the other two, so it's really up to preference I suppose. Note: If you want Ivy for a more defensive role then I suggest dropping Sd for Synthesis and choosing body slam for the last slot.

Ivysaur @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Sleep Powder
- Razor Leaf
- Swords Dance
- Return / Double-Edge / Body Slam

Noms:

- Unique typing gives it key resists vs all common Magby moves. BoltBeam + Twave is pretty good at dealing with most mons, adding Hidden Power Rock rounds out the coverage. Notably 2HKOs Smoochum. imo has the tools to be B+.

- Wait we have another psychic? Natu is an interesting case to say the least, but I think it definitely has more of a use than the other scrubs in C+. Psychic and Drill Peck make for some respectable STABs, hitting the many poisons, grass, and bug types in the tier. Steel Wing provides a way to smack Smoochum for a clean 2HKO if given the oppurtunity. Giga Drain can hit Onix and give you the extra bit of health vs Croconaw or Thief for team support. B-.

Closing Thoughts
Finally at the end of all this, if you stuck around for the entire thing then I thank you for sitting through it. I'm certain that I missed a few points for each gen, there's just so much to talk about obviously, that I wouldn't be surprised if I ended up doing something similar in the future. Hopefully when that time does come, I won't have broken dropdowns so I can make more compressed segments. If I made any mistakes or shortsighted assessments, then by all means lmk on discord. Needless to say, I hope people continue to enjoy the various old gens and their quirks for what they are.

 

[hayedenn]

btboy — Today at 5:36 PM
Beauts you’re gonna have to eventually do something as TL

btboy — Today at 5:36 PM
Everybody: let’s ban lapras
Beauts: why won’t people let me ban lapras

DPP ZU Has Banned Lapras​

(everyone voted ban)

Lapras has been a moderately controversial mon these first two weeks of ZUPL. Its fantastic typing (bar a Stealth Rock weakness), coverage, bulk, and support movepool have seen it have a 70% usage rate in the first five games, twice as much as the 2nd use mons. Lapras's consistent checks are limited to Kecleon and other Lapras, which has led most Lapras interactions in tournament games to devolve into trading each other's Lapras. To expand on these points more:
Typing: Water/Ice is a fantastic offensive typing, and limits Lapras's checks to Kecleon (due to its bulk and Color Change ability), niche mons like SpDef Luxray, and other Lapras. Defensively this typing is great as well bar a Rocks weakness, as, along with Water Absorb, Lapras is a fantastic check to Kingler (if locked into not Superpower), other Lapras, Mawile, etc. We view this as being unhealthy and restricting on the builder
Coverage: Lapras's STAB moves, along with Thunderbolt, make it incredibly difficult to switch into. Lapras also has access to Substitute and Toxic, giving it multiple options to get around its checks. Access to Dragon Dance, Ice Shard, and Curse also give it set diversity, forcing opponents into suboptimal situations where they have to guess the set. Is it Specs Hydro Pump, or DD? Maybe SubTox, or Protect 3 Attacks?
Bulk: Lapras is by far the bulkiest mon in the tier. 130/80/95 outpaces every other wall in the tier and makes it incredibly difficult to take down and OHKO, even with super-effective attacks. If you want to OHKO Lapras, you're forced into running LO +Spa Luxray and the rare Meditite, or running multiple layers of hazards.


The council hopes that this ban will lead to a more balanced metagame, but we are aware that this has the potential to make things more broken in the short-term, and we will be vigilant in monitoring these threats.

This ban will be implemented Week 3 of ZUPL, so feel free to use it still this week. Tagging Marty and Kris to implement. I'll also go ahead and ping JabbaTheGriffin Lunala gglrg Beraldinho Heysup Huargensy Toy Time King (sorry!) so they know for next week

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

What motivates you? What... inspires action? Maybe its your work, and you really love making a difference in the world. Maybe its your family, your love, your vices. It could be as simple as waking up to a good cup of coffee. I know that works for me sometimes.

But sometimes, I need something else.

Something stronger.

Something like....

RBY ZU PRE-ALPHA BABY HELL YEAH

​

What is RBY ZU Pre-Alpha?
Generation one is unique in many ways, and with a relatively recent overhaul of its tiering, ZU hasn't had a chance to exist yet till now. This is thanks to this post: the first VR for RBY PU. Given that RBY tiering is based viability, ZU could not exist without this list. Now that it's available, everything C rank and lower is legal in ZU.

The metagame is like no other in RBY. Specifically, the tier is completely devoid of Psychic-types. Standard teambuilding roles for the generation are severely limited, so competition is usually thin. A standout Pokemon in the tier is undoubtably Flareon, as it's extremely powerful at a decent speed tier and bulk. LC and NFE Pokemon like Kabuto, Gastly, Pikachu, Diglett, Tentacool, and Wartortle fill in the blanks for some of these missing niches. There's also a handful of oddities that may perk your interest; the low Attack Onix is, in many regards, stronger than Scyther. Despite being super weak, Mega Drain is a very threatening attack due to the prevalence of Onix and Kabuto. Psychic types are gone, so the attack Psychic itself goes unresisted throughout the tier.

There's a lot more to be said because there's a lot more to be discovered. I'm sure we'll all have a great time playing RBY ZU together :)

Full List of Pokemon / Challenge Format / Validator:
Soon. I mean we'll probs wait for the latter two when we're out of alpha though.
Refer to the PU post in the mean time.
Challenge in RBY NU.

Potential teams:

Lead Primape


Lead Arbok


Lead Gastly


Lead Butterfree


Back Butterfree



My initial VR:

Click the spoiler for a short analysis + moves I recommend. I did not include OO or moves that I think wouldn't be worth it. Note I could be wrong; Agility Scyther is might be good enough, just haven't played enough.


S Rank:

Flareon is basically the best wallbreaker and way to make significant progress. It's hard to imagine a team without it because it's so good. Maybe it's defensive qualities take a backseat to how good it is offensively, and given every team should probs have Kabuto, it's plausible to forgo it for something anti-meta––whatever that will mean. Still, got to hand it to Flareon and Flareon alone.

Flareon

Fire Blast
Body Slam
Hyper Beam
Fire Spin

Flareon is the strongest threat available in the metagame, as almost nothing can sustain its strong Fire- and Normal-type coverage. Rock-types like Onix risk being 2HKOed by Fire Blast, which also has a fair chance to punish further with the high burn rate. Water-types like Wartortle and Tentacool are also inconsistent switch-ins due to Body Slam + Hyper Beam. Even Flareon’s best counter, Kabuto, is in jeopardy of Fire Spin, which allows Flareon to wear down and pivot off of anything slower than it. This is doable given Flareon’s Speed is relatively good, especially given it can outspeed targets such as Marowak, Parasect, and Clefairy. Its Speed does fall short against some strong attackers like Primeape, Scyther, and Diglett. The sleep inducers Butterfree and Gastly may also target Flareon, and while they’re shakey switch-ins, Onix and Tentacool hit hard with their attacks.

Top tier:


These three are good enough to mandated on most teams, but are probs a step below Flareon.

kabuto

Surf
Blizzard
Body Slam
Rest

Kabuto’s Rock / Water typing makes it a tier staple as a check to Flareon and Pokemon reliant on Normal-type attacks. More so, Kabuto holds its own offensively given its good coverage and status-spreading opportunities from Body Slam and Blizzard. Kabuto can then net progress versus offensive Pokemon like Flareon and Scyther while also threatening slower targets such as Marowak and Parasect. Kabuto’s centralization along with Onix is tough given Pokemon like Butterfree and Gastly run Mega Drain to target it. Other offensive threats like Primeape and Pikachu also hit hard with their STAB attacks, and in general faster Pokemon like Onix, Arbok, Wartortle, and Tentacool will have strong attacks to threaten Kabuto.

Onix

Earthquake
Rock Slide
Explosion
Bind / Body Slam

Despite a low Attack stat, Onix excels as an offensive threat. This is thanks to Onix’s STAB attacks and relevant Speed, as it forces out the likes of Flareon, Kabuto, and Scyther. Even bulkier targets like Marowak and Parasect ought to worry about the raw power of Explosion. More generally, Onix can use Bind to pivot off of walls or bring them into Earthquake range, or use Body Slam as a means to spread paralysis. What does deter Onix is its poor special bulk and relevant weaknesses. Mega Drain users like Butterfree, Gastly and Parasect prey on this vulnerability, as do Water-types like Kabuto and Wartortle. These weaknesses make Parasect, Marowak, and Wartortle situational switch-ins to Onix. Pikachu outspeeds Onix and OHKOes, and other fast threats like Primeape and Diglett threaten Onix too.

Primeape

Submission
Body Slam
Rock Slide
Hyper Beam / Seismic Toss

Primeape’s strong coverage and great Speed tier makes it one of the best revenge killers available. Submission is great for Rock- and Normal-types, and Body Slam is just as valuable for its accuracy and chance to cause paralysis. Rock Slide is exceptional coverage for the tier as it: 1) OHKOes Butterfree, 2.) 2HKOes Scyther and Flareon, and 3.) hits Gastly whereas Primeape’s other coverage doesn’t. Hyper Beam is Primeape’s strongest attack, used to finish off foes like Marowak and Wartortle. Alternatively, Seismic Toss is another option to finish off foes as a more accurate attack for Kabuto and Gastly. Primeape’s main concern is status, as once asleep or paralyzed, threats like Flareon and Tentacool exploit Primeape’s mediocre bulk. Pokemon like Gastly, Marowak, and Parasect switch into some of Primeape’s attacks and may force it out with their own coverage and status.

Still pretty good:


These are some of the best at their roles and not much competes.

Gastly

Hypnosis
Psychic
Mega Drain
Explosion

Gastly’s Ghost-typing is a godsend in a metagame where Normal- and Fighting-type attacks run rampant. In particular, threats like Scyther and Primape may struggle to damage Gastly, and slower threats like Flareon and Onix risk letting Gastly in for free when they use Normal-type attacks. Gastly then capitalizes on these foes with Hypnosis, which in turn creates an opportunity to fire off an unresisted Psychic. Mega Drain hits Rock-types, and Explosion is the kicker that gives Gastly extra wallbreaking power once Sleep Clause is in effect. Gastly’s major concern is missing Hypnosis, as Gastly is relatively frail and weak to the multiple Earthquake users of the tier; Onix avoids the OHKO from Mega Drain and OHKOes back with Earthquake. Missing Hypnosis is tough given slower status spreaders like Butterfree, Clefairy, and Parasect use more accurate forms of status to punish Gastly, and some faster threats like Diglett and Pikachu may target Gastly even without status support.

Butterfree

Sleep Powder
Stun Spore
Psychic
Mega Drain / Substitute


Butterfree’s dual statues are not only a rarity, but they’re also phenomenal support for Butterfree and its teammates. Notably, Butterfree outspeeds staples like Flareon, Kabuto, and Marowak, which creates an opportunity to spread status. Once targets are asleep, Butterfree is capable offensively, given Psychic goes unresisted in the metagame and Mega Drain nails Onix and Kabutops. Psychic’s potency is good enough for Butterfree to forgo Mega Drain for Substitute so that it may capitalize on sleeping foes. There are some shortcomings with Butterfree and its middling Speed; Primeape OHKOes with Rock Slide, Arbok traps with Wrap, and Gastly can put Butterfree to sleep first with Hypnosis. If Butterfree misses Sleep Powder or Sleep Clause is in effect, then threats like Flareon and Marowak threaten heavy damage themselves.

Marowak

Earthquake
Blizzard
Fire Blast
Body Slam / Counter

Marowak’s high Defense stat makes it a good switch-in to common physical attackers like Onix, Primeape, and Diglett. Its resistance to Rock Slide and immunity to Thunderbolt makes it particularly good partner for Butterfree and Scyther. Marowak then makes progress with its strong coverage, with Blizzard for Flying-types and Onix and Fire Blast to KO Parasect; if Parasect switches into any other of Marowak’s attack, then it will be in range of a Fire Blast KO. Body Slam is a good neutral attack to fish for paralysis versus faster foes, whereas Counter could come into play if Marowak tanks Onix’s Explosion. The same bulk cannot be said about Special Defense, as Flareon and Water-types threaten Marowak with considerable damage. Marowak is also slower than these checks, so it is easy to force it out, especially after sustaining attacks chip damage. Even switching into Clefairy’s Thunder Wave could be a losing scenario, as Marowak’s Earthquake is only a 3HKO whereas Clefairy’s Blizzard is a 2HKO.

Parasect

Spore
Mega Drain
Body Slam / Hyper Beam / Slash
Swords Dance / Stun Spore

With good bulk, a heavy resistant to Earthquake, and access to Spore, Parasect has the tools necessary to be a defensive asset for teams. It switches into the likes of Onix, Primeape, and Pikachu to then follow with the reliable Spore. Mega Drain is another way to punish Onix and Kabuto, making it a good compliment to Parasect’s Normal-type attacks. Body Slam’s paralysis support and synergy with Swords Dance allows Parasect to capitalize after Spore; Hyper Beam could work instead, although Parasect will sacrifice the utility of spreading paralysis as a result. Alternatively, a dual status set with Stun Spore works as a more consistent option to paralyze foes, and Slash could be considered over Body Slam for its high critical hit rate. Parasect’s roll as a wall is precious given its severe weakness to attacks like Fire Blast and Blizzard; even Scyther’s Wing Attack OHKOes at +2. Pokemon that Parasect can switch into like Onix and Primeape are still able to 3HKO with Rock Slide, meaning Parasect is one wrong read + critical hit away from being dispatched before it can function. This is especially concerning for how slow it is, making it unlikely for it to do anything at a low HP.

Pikachu

Thunderbolt
Surf
Thunder Wave
Seismic Toss / Thunder

Pikachu offers a good mix of offense and utility. Electric / Water coverage is great given the metagame’s affinity for Water- and Rock-types, which makes Pikachu tough to switch into. These matchups create opportunities to use Thunder Wave to paralyze what switches in. Pikachu compliments this offensive presence with Seismic Toss as its best means to damage Gaslty and Parasect, or Thunder to OHKO Kabuto. Marowak is Pikachu’s biggest hurdle, as it’s likely to avoid a Surf 2HKO and in turn OHKOes Pikachu. More generally, Pikachu is very frail, so it may only tank one attack per game before it’s in jeopardy of going down to any hit. This makes it tough for Pikachu to deal with faster threats like Primeape, Scyther, and especially Diglett, as well as stronger attackers like Flareon and Earthquake Arbok.

Scyther

Swords Dance
Slash
Hyper Beam
Wing Attack / Toxic

Scyther is the fastest Pokemon in the metagame, and it has strong attacks to boot. Slash is great for revenge killing in the mid-game, whereas Swords Dance + Hyper Beam is used late-game to clean. This combo could also be used earlier to net good damage versus defensive picks like Kabuto and Marowak, which in turn could support teammates like Flareon and Primape to sweep. Still, Scyther’s limited movepool means it will struggle versus Rock-types and Gastly, especially depending on what coverage it goes for: Wing Attack allows Scyther to hit Gastly, and to a lesser extent it nails Parasect, whereas Toxic wears down Rock-types; Toxic could be helpful support for Fire Spin Flareon and Wrap Tentacool. Scyther also struggles defensively given its weakness to Rock Slide, Blizzard, Fire Blast, and status––all common attacks. This means that when targets like Primape, Marowak, Flareon, and Butterfree are healthy, Scyther may not have an opportunity to get in.

Low A to low B rank:



The line kinda blurs for some of these, if they should be higher or lower, who knows.

Diglett

Earthquake
Rock Slide
Body Slam
Substitute

Diglett’s best asset is its Speed, as it’s able to either revenge kill or force considerable damage versus most of the metagame. Unlike Onix, Diglett outspeeds more Pokemon like Butterfree, Arbok, Gastly, and Pikachu; the latter two it OHKOes. Body Slam is a decent neutral attack, useful for when it is strong enough to finish off a foe and still threaten most switch-ins with the paralysis chance. When revenge killing Pokemon vulnerable to Earthquake, Diglett can try to use Substitute instead to scout and see if a Flying-type comes in trying to absorb the hit. Digglett’s concern is its frailty. Trading hits usually means it will go down soon thereafter, with some attackers like the faster Scyther capable of OHKOing Diglett.

Tentacool

Hydro Pump
Blizzard
Wrap
Surf

Tentacool offers a unique set of offensive qualities. For starters, it’s the only Water-type that is faster than Flareon and threatens a 2HKO. Tentacool has a relatively high Special stat too, making its Hydro Pump do heavy damage to most targets: it OHKOes Marowak and 2HKOes most neutral foes. Blizzard 2HKOes Parasect and Butterfree, and Wrap allows Tentacool to pivot off of slower threats and secure extra chip damage. Surf is recommended for it’s accuracy and when its damage overlaps with Hydro Pump. Tentacool’s Speed is bittersweet as it speed ties Onix and Butterfree, which are matchups with drastic consequences based on coin flip odds. Tentacool’s psychical bulk is also lacking, which makes it an easy target to revenge killers like Primeape, Scyther, and Diglett. As rewarding as it sounds to try and tank Flareon’s Fire Blast and follow up with Wrap or Hydro Pump, Tentacool heavily risks Body Slam and Hyper Beam doing too much damage to stomach.

Arbok

Wrap
Glare
Earthquake
Rock Slide

Arbok hits a good enough Speed to be a threatening revenge killer and pivot with Wrap. It also spreads status through Glare, which can be a guaranteed paralysis in the early-game so long as it hits. Earthquake is a great attack for Arbok as it speed ties and OHKOes Gastly with it, and it also hits the Rock-types that may try and stall out Wrap. Rock Slide has a good chance to OHKO Butterfree, which is guaranteed after two turns of Wrap damage, and it 2HKOes Scyther. Relying on Wrap and Glare is tough given Arbok’s poor Poison typing makes it exploitable, especially by the tier’s Ground-types. Status is tough for Arbok to deal with, as sleep, paralysis, and even burn can put it out of commission; this makes a Wrap miss too costly in some scenarios.

Wartortle

Surf
Blizzard
Seismic Toss
Body Slam

Wartortle’s passable bulk and offensive coverage makes it a good pick for the mid- to late-game. With STAB Surf complimented by Blizzard, Wartortle can offensively pressure the likes of Onix, Marowak, and Butterfree. Seismic Toss 3HKOes Kabuto, preventing it from stalling with Rest, and Body Slam can result in a paralysis so Wartortle can get the jump on an otherwise faster target. Situationally, Wartortle can use its resistances to switch into some Pokemon like Flareon and Kabuto, but otherwise it’s considerably vulnerable with mediocre speed and bulk. On top of Wartortle being susceptible to status

Clefairy

Thunder Wave
Sing
Blizzard
Thunderbolt

Clefairy is a dual status spreader that functions in addition to or in leu of Butterfree and Parasect. One part of its niche is its Normal-typing and passable bulk, which means that it can use Thunder Wave and Sing on anything it can survive a hit from. Unlike Butterfree, Clefairy lives a hit from Primeape, and unlike Parasect, Clefairy lives a hit from Flareon. The other part of its niche is its attacks with Blizzard + Thunderbolt, which is both a rarity and good coverage to make progress versus most targets. Clefairy is slow and Sing is unreliable, so it's possible it does little more than paralyze a single foe and secure some chip damage.

Other Pokemon that could see use:

Water-types, Meowth, the other Poison-types (especially Golbat), and Hitmonlee.

Chall me whenever for games. Use teams above if necessary. Have fun.

​

 

[phoopes]

What is RBY ZU Pre-Alpha?
Generation one is unique in many ways, and with a relatively recent overhaul of its tiering, ZU hasn't had a chance to exist yet till now. This is thanks to this post: the first VR for RBY PU. Given that RBY tiering is based viability, ZU could not exist without this list. Now that it's available, everything C rank and lower is legal in ZU.

Quick note on this: Expect the PU VR to change/be very fluid in the coming months. PU is still a pretty new tier and I'm hoping to get a VR with more than four submitters in October (to coincide with the RBY VR schedule found here), so definitely expect some changes then at the very least.

 

[skrimps]

Welcome to DPP ZU! The purpose of this is to have a place to discuss changes to the DPP ZU Viability Rankings

A --> S

I'd like to nominate Kingler to S on the DPP Viability Rankings. I believe it's the single most oppressive factor in teambuilding due to its insane Attack and Defense stats, quality boosting moves, and dangerous move pool. It's typically grouped up with Crawdaunt, but Kingler's ability to run Choice Scarf effectively and even Protect + Toxic alongside the same Choice Band and Swords Dance sets makes it more versatile and threatening. Lapras was also a decent answer to Kingler thanks to Thunderbolt so that's one less check to worry about now too.

Choice Band Kingler has limited repeat switch-ins to Crabhammer and most of those are getting OHKO/2HKOed by the proper coverage move -- Pelipper is 2HKOed by Rock Slide, Grotle is 2HKOed by X-Scissor, and Gloom is 2HKOed by Return. Ironically, one's own Kingler is sometimes the safest switch-in to an opposing Kingler.

Setup Move Kingler is equally as dangerous. Swords Dance sets turn those 2HKOs mentioned into OHKO. Agility sets outpace the entire metagame and simply abuse Kingler's insane natural Attack stat. I don't think the limited coverage and longer setup time of Double Dance is worth it but it's still a threat that needs to be accounted for. Life Orb damage calcs are stupid strong and Lum Berry turns even more Pokemon into setup fodder.

Choice Scarf Kingler works because it can actually outspeed Persian and eats Fake Out relatively well off its 115 Base Defense. Again, it's still incredibly strong without any power boosts so it can both revenge and/or clean late-game if needed. Four move slots is plenty of coverage too.

Protect + Toxic is something I've been using with great success recently. Kingler's natural bulk + Leftovers + Protect gives it surprisingly good longevity -- it checks opposing Kingler or Crawdaunt, and it can bait in fat Water and Grass types to rack up Toxic damage to facilitate a teammate's sweep. Crabhammer + Return is enough coverage to hit everything in the meta for neutral damage too. This obviously can't do much to Gloom but that's a Pokemon you can take advantage of with other threats like Arbok or Bannette.

Whenever Kingler switches in, it's a guessing game on what set it's running, and the wrong assumption can be catastrophic. Bringing a check into a Choice Band coverage move to get 2HKOed sucks, but so does letting Kingler click Swords Dance as you risk that. It's also a guess as to what coverage it's running -- it can't use all of Superpower, Rock Slide, X-Scissor, and Return (or Double Edge), but having to prepare for all of them can really limit teambuilding. At least with Persian, you know what it's going to do when you see it. Intimidate is useless against any of these sets too because of Hyper Cutter. Most of the time, Kingler will do its job well. In line with the definition of S Rank, it "requires minimal support to function."

 

[hayedenn]

I'm stepping down as DPP TL and from council, wooper is new TL. Congrats to him woooo clap clap. Thanks Procrastinasian for originally making me TL; it was fun running DPP for a few months. I'm sure wooper will do a great job and I can't wait to see what he does with the tier.

 

[Tuthur]

Please welcome Quagg to SM ZU council! Apagogie has also stepped down from SM ZU council.

 

[BP]

Incoming ADV ZU Post

OranBerryBlissey10 mentioned that the samples were a tad bit outdated so I thought I'd submit the team I've been using to at least spark a bit of discussion. Shoutout BeatsBlack for the Rhyhorn set.


LureHorn Cleaner Pidg Balance

Description

Snorunt is the best spiker you can use on Balanced teams. It provides spikes support for some key wall breakers like Rhyhorn, Tailow, Pidgeotto, and Aipom. Snorunt provides solid spikes support for Pidgeotto and Rhyhorn and to a lesser extent Staryu. Its speed tier and Special Attack aren't even that bad either so it can provide valuable chip after spikes if you can manage to keep the little guy. Staryu is such a fantastic spinner. It hits non-resists hard enough and its reliable recovery allows it to become an offensive pivot. Pidgeotto really appreciates this as Rhyhorn is used for luring Elekid and can't guarantee it has the necessary HP. Rhyhorn is the big baddy of ADV ZU. It has numerous viable sets and whenever I see sub-Rhyhorn I get scared. To guarantee a successful Pidgeotto clean, Elekid needs to go. Rhyhorn does this as its set allows it to live HP Grass and Water.

252 SpA Elekid Hidden Power Grass vs. 64 HP / 252+ SpD Rhyhorn: 268-316 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With Elekid gone Pidgeotto can come in and pick off opposing Pokemon or heavily damage the opposing team's walls. Koffing is perhaps one of the best Physical walls in ADV ZU. It's typing in conjunction with Levitate makes such a defensive asset. It can reliably wall all Rhyhorn sets if its not already set up. Pain-Split, while not being reliable, absolutely helps with Koffing's longevity. Koffing usually has many opportunities to use it as well as every other move because it just sits there and forces switches and burns something. Lileep is the team's Special wall and helps make up the team's defensive backbone. Toxic is incredibly valuable when it forces switches.

Koffing
B ---> A-
Koffing's defensive typing, stats, and movepool make it an incredible addition to a team looking for a physical wall. Not having reliable recovery doesn't really hurt Koffing too much as leftovers and the occasional pain split click go such a long way. It also walls most Rhyhorn sets with Taunt Wisp. Choice Band Rhyhorn is doing at most 43% with Rock Slide and it just gets crippled next turn with Wisp. It can also alleviate pressure for teams that find themselves weak to the birds. For these reasons, I think that Koffing is worth a higher ranking than Just B.

Replays

vs LPY : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-1646514590
vs Lemonstre1: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-1646519440
vs banb4doro: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-1646527975-ronl93tqei2hcy8mwbqjhihhbtwtf1zpw

EDIT: I'm just gonna dump my builder here to show you guys where my head is at. I tested a few of these against Ho3nn and they worked pretty well.


SD Bayleef Balance


Phys Breaker T-Wave Spam


GrimeKid Balance


King of the Sea Offense

 

[BP]

omg shhh... I'm doubling posting

I'm an avid connoisseur of balanced teams so today I thought I'd share with you some of the cores I've been using to build with. The descriptions will be short because I have some VR noms I'd like to get to.

Importable

Grimer @ Leftovers
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sludge Bomb
- Curse
- Sleep Talk

Koffing @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Pain Split
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Will-O-Wisp

Spoink @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Fire]
- Protect

Description

This core thrives off Koffing acting as the physically defensive backbone and EQ immunity. Grimer and Spoink act as potential win-cons. Grimer is fat enough to switch to compliment Koffing's physical defenses. He can also sweep late-game once Pokemon such as Dustox, Magnemite, and Rhyhorn are gone. Spoink is able to threaten Rhyhorn and Dustox for Grimer with HP-Grass and Psychic respectively. It can also threaten Magnemite if it chooses to run HP-Fire.

importable

Sunflora @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 244 HP / 220 SpD / 44 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Growth / Leech Seed
- Razor Leaf
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Synthesis

Spoink @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Fire]
- Protect / Substitute

Koffing @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Pain Split
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Will-O-Wisp

Description

Sunflora is able to handle special Pokemon such as Staryu and Elekid for Koffing. With access to Growth Sunflora can also hit stuff surprisingly hard after a boost. Spoink is able to set up on Growlithe which otherwise abuses Sunflora. It also acts as great Win-con thanks to its extremely coveted Psychic STAB and access to Thick Fat. Koffing is able to cripple offensive threats that may threaten Sunflora or Spoink like Pidgeotto and Castform.

Importable

Magnemite @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Toxic / Thunder Wave

Lileep @ Leftovers
Ability: Suction Cups
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Rock Slide
- Giga Drain
- Toxic
- Recover

Rhyhorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 112 HP / 52 Atk / 220 SpD / 124 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Substitute / Protect
- Swords Dance

Description

This core focuses on shutting down the Flying-types. Magnemite is such an awesome Pokemon in ADV ZU. It's Steel-typing, Electric STAB, and decent defense make it a great status spreader. T-wave can be run for slower teams but Toxic here is preferable because this core wants more offensive support. Lileep can also spread status which allows it the ability to outlast other walls. Lileep is able to wall certain Pokemon that threaten Rhyhorn such as Elekid and Staryu. Rhyhorn is running a thick SD set which allows it to live HP grass from Elekid with 1% left and avoid the Choice Band Pidgeotto 2HKO. In this case, it can pick what it wants to beat if it's at full HP. In this case, Elekids are staying in to make the EQ trade while Pidgeotto's tend to switch which provides Rhyhorn with a sub or SD opportunity.

VR Noms


B ----> A-

Magnemite is such a cool Pokemon in ADV. It possesses one of the highest Special Attack stats in the meta, 4x resistance to birds, a normal resistance, immunity to Toxic, and base 70 defense. It also has access to two of the best moves Toxic and Thunder-Wave which allow him to act as a great pivot. Moreover, Magnemite completely walls and shuts down Grimer and OHKO's Rhyhorn and Staryu. Magnemite has a lot of opportunities to use Substitute as well once it baits a switch. After it's behind a sub it uses its status to cripple the switch in or whatever offensive mon is in front of it. Because Magnemite is Steel-type and possesses enough speed to sub on defensive Pokemon, it becomes hard to check it defensively. This is why Magnemite is able to cripple using status as much as it does.


A-----> B

Exeggcute is straight cheeks imo. As a defensive wall, it loses to the birds, Shadow Ball Aipom, and most importantly Rhyhorn. Everything it wants to do fails because of its typing. At the very least it has status, and Sleep powder can be annoying to switch into as well as STAB Psychic. Pokemon like Koffing, Magnemite, and Butterfree do their job better which makes Exeggcute seldom worth it.


B ----> B+

Sunflora sports an immense amount of HP and Spdef with access to Leech Seed which makes it a major asset to balance teams. If you can afford not running Spdef Lileep then Sunflora is definitely the next pick. Growth can also be run over Leech Seed as base 105 SpA is not a joke. Razor Leaf at +1 is actually hard to switch into especially because Sunflora is so damn hard to OHKO. Hidden Power [Ice] gives Sunflora the option to hit birds really hard if they choose to switch in.


B-----> A-

Cyndaquil is the most customizable lead. This allows it to beat other leads fairly easily depending on what your team is looking for. Snorunt is the most common and dare I say best lead in the meta. Cyndaquil directly counters Snorunt and can run certain sets to counter Butterfree, opposing lead Cyndaquil, and Spoink. It can do this all while still countering and removing the best lead, Snorunt. Because Cyndaquil is able to compress its role as a lead so well it deserves A-.


C ----> B+

Spoink is a Pokemon that has been receiving a lot of attention ADV ZU. Thick Fat, Psychic STAB, and access to CM make it stand out, especially with the Passive poisons that lurk such as Koffing, Grimer, and Dustox. Additionally, thanks to Nuzleaf rarely seeing use, Spoink is able to abuse its Psychic STAB which hits incredibly hard at +1. Thick Fat allows it to beat pokemon such as Cyndaquil which lack Toxic, Growlithe, Snorunt. This provides Spoink with the option to act as a reliable lead. Spoink can also be saved for late-game cleaning with Substitute and Calm Mind. Spoink's offensive capabilities thanks to its type and its resistance thanks to Thick Fat make it a threat.

 

[wooper]

some big adv updates coming your way folks. recently, BP was added to the council, welcome! we've also updated the viability rankings in the op, so go check them out! inside the spoiler below you'll find all of the shifts with a small blurb explaining our reasoning.

Rises

A --> A+ Elekid finds itself as a top threat in ADV ZU due to its almost unmatched speed tier, respectable Special Attack, and its coverage options. Elekid is able to offensively check top Pokémon such as Pidgeotto, Taillow, Seaking, Rhyhorn that lack SpDef investment, and Aipom.
A --> A+ Lileep is the most highly customizable wall in ADV ZU. Its access to Recover, great overall bulk, and its STABs allow Lileep to truly excel. Giga Drain (or Hidden Power [Grass]) and Rock Slide allow Lileep to check top threats such as Taillow, Pidgeotto, and Rhyhorn while still walling weaker attackers.
B --> A- Koffing's role compression as a physically defensive Pokemon allows it to shine. With Ground and Toxic immunities, access to Will-o-Wisp, and great physical defense, Koffing is able to cement itself as an incredibly useful asset on both Balance and Defensive teams, particularly versus Rhyhorn.
B+ --> A- With Spikes being such a meta-defining mechanic in ADV, Staryu is able to take the top spot as a dedicated spinner. This is due to its great speed tier, access to reliable recovery, Natural Cure, and incredible coverage, and a strong Hydro Pump. Moreover, Staryu can also act as an offensive pivot that can absorb Status, which greatly increases its usefulness.
B --> B+ Cyndaquil is a highly customizable lead whose main purpose is to prevent Spikes from ever being set. It completely counters Snorunt, which allows it to excel on more offensive and balanced teams.
B --> B+ Thanks to its Steel-typing, Magnemite is able to completely wall the plethora of bulky Poison-types that call ADV ZU home. Moreover, Magnemite's utility as a status spreader thanks to its access to Toxic and Thunder Wave allows it to threaten other walls that it otherwise wouldn't touch such as Sunflora and Lileep.
B --> B+ Sunflora's pure Grass-typing allows it to resist prominent Electric-, Grass-, and Water-type moves. Additionally, Sunflora boasts the highest special attack in the meta alongside a great Special Defense stat. As a result, it can function as either a SpDef wall, a bulky wincon, or even a potent Sunny Day sweeper.
C+ --> B- Psychic types are in right now, thanks in part to the rise in Poison-types Dustox and Koffing. While Spoink sees more usage thanks to its Thick Fat ability, Natu boasts a higher speed tier, easing set up opportunities a bit.
C --> C+ Aron is a niche pick whose Steel-typing allows it to switch into a lot of common defensive opponents hoping to use Toxic, or any number of the Normal- and Flying-types choice-locked into resisted STAB moves. While slow, it is very strong with a Choice Band and high base power moves such as Iron Tail, Earthquake, and Rock Head Double Edge.
C --> C+ Kabuto is the only physical wallbreaker that benefits while Rain Dance is active. This coupled with its synergy with Grimer makes it an incredible asset on rain teams.
C --> B- One of two viable users of Dragon Dance, Larvitar has a potent STAB SlideQuake combination, paired with the Guts ability to absorb status and power up its respectable Attack stat.
C --> B- Luvdisc's amazing speed tier above tier threat Elekid allows it to slot into specific supporting or offensive roles. Rain teams appreciate its ability to use Rain Dance before almost any other Pokémon, alleviating the pressure against offensive teams. Additionally, Luvdisc make use of Substitute sets to either whittle down or clean teams with a ProTox or Petaya set respectively.
C --> C+ Thanks to its unique Dark-typing, access to Chlorophyll, and Explosion, Nuzleaf finds itself as a viable Pokemon on sun teams. It can even slot coverage like Extrasensory to threaten bulky Poison-types in order to aid Sunflora in cleaning up.
C --> C+ With the combination of its speed, Sunny Day, and Explosion, Onix finds itself as a prime member on Sun teams. Explosion lets Onix deal massive damage to even the bulkiest Pokémon while getting its teammates onto the field safely.
C --> B+ Spoink shines in ADV ZU due to its Psychic-type STAB, access to Calm Mind, and its ability Thick Fat. These tools allow Spoink to excel with little support. Spoink is able to threaten and remove the bulky Poison-types. Thanks to only having one Dark-type, Psychic becomes extremely spammable.
C- --> C Illumise has a lot of great things going for it: utility moves such as Encore, Baton Pass, and Moonlight; base 85 Speed alongside respectable HP and SpDef stats; and moves like Seismic Toss, Thunderbolt, and Ice Punch.
C --> B- We initially forgot to include this on the voting slate, whoops! Shuppet finally gets ranked thanks to its unique Ghost-typing in the tier, meaning it is immune to all of the Normal-spam and even Rapid Spin, making it a cool pick on a Spike Stacking team. Additionally, Insomnia lets it switch relatively freely into Sleep Powder from a number of relevant Pokémon like Butterfree and Exeggcute, and Will-O-Wisp is quite rare but super useful for neutering the tier's many physical attackers.
UR --> C- Snubbull's niche is mostly just Intimidate and Heal Bell, but there are better options for both. However, despite being slow, it boasts base 80 Attack, which is higher than Pokémon like Aipom and Castform, and therefore has a stronger Double-Edge, and can even learn Bulk Up, Earthquake, and Shadow Ball to handle its checks.
UR --> C Teddiursa is similar to Snubbull in many regards; both are slow Normal-types with base 80 Attack with access to Bulk Up and Earthquake to muscle past Normal resistances like Rhyhorn, Nosepass, and Magnemite. Teddiursa also learns Swords Dance, but does not have a viable competitive ability.

Drops

A --> B+ Cubone finds itself almost completely outclassed by Rhyhorn. However, thanks to its item, Thick Club, Cubone is able to maintain relevance as the strongest non-choiced physical attacker in the entirety of ADV ZU.
A --> B+ Exeggcute suffers from a lot of competition in both of its main niches as a status spreader and as a physical wall. However, Exeggcute's Psychic STAB and access to Chlorophyll are still major assets.
A --> A- Despite being one of the premier Pokemon for rain teams, Grimer's type does it no favors. With the rising usage of Dustox, Koffing, and Magnemite, Grimer struggles to find a time to set up when it wants to. The ever-present Rhyhorn also hinders Grimer as its an easy OHKO and it resists Sludge Bomb.
A --> A- Due to Growlithe's mediocre speed tier and Spoink's rise in popularity, it struggles to set up. Growlithe enjoys the recent usage from Dustox, Koffing, and Magnemite, however.
B --> C Despite Snorunt being the superior Spikes user in almost every facet, Pineco does have access to decent bulk and Explosion. These tools are enough to keep it relevant as a mid-game Spikes user.
B- --> C+ Zigzagoon simply can never find a time to actually use Belly Drum. To do so it requires a lot of support and due to Quick Attack and Extreme Speed being the same priority, it isn't hard to revenge kill.
C --> C- Nidorino, while being the strongest Poison-type, struggles to do any real damage due to its lack of physical coverage options, and its special coverage like Thunderbolt and Ice Beam are simply too weak. Together with its competition from other Choice Band users, many of whom are faster, make Nidorino almost unusable.
C --> C- Its incredibly poor speed, quadruple weakness to common Fire- and Flying-types, and lack of strong STAB to make use of its base 95 Attack make Parasect almost completely outclassed by Butterfree and Exeggcute. It is the only viable user of Spore, however.

HUGE thanks to my team for helping me update the vr and putting together these reasonings for our shifts. we'll be updating more resources in the coming weeks, so stay tuned!

edit: my poor friend Shuppet was accidentally left out of the VR update, and has since been added!

i also have some exciting news for dpp! ive added Huargensy, skrimps, and Corthius to council! we'll also be updating more resources in the coming weeks, including the vr and the long-awaited sample teams. keep your eyes peeled for those!

 

[innovamania]

Well now that ZUPL is over it seems like as good a time as ever to finally do the stuff I talked about in my other post, so for the other 4 people who actually like GSC ZU enjoy. I wanna set a few explanations/rules for this VR though and explain a few things.

1. This is my personal VR and I am trying to be as objective as possible but every VR made by one person will be subject to some form of bias no matter what but that being said, at most it means maybe one mon is slightly higher then it might be on another VR but overall should be an accurate reflection of the tier at the moment.

2. I'm going to try to organize pokemon by letters like other VR's do but I'm also gonna number them in viability too. This means mon number 5 is better then mon number 7 even if they are both A+ for example. However the scale of "betterness" may be quite inconsequential and almost just personal preference at some points so mon number 6 and mon number 7 might as well be the same for all intents and purposes. So just assume if pokemon 7 and pokemon 8 are both in the same rank they are essentially equal and I just think mon 7 is better if I had to pick between the 2.

3. I try to explain my thoughts for each and every choice on the VR. Some will be longer then others as obviously I can say more about a pokemon like Magby then I can a pokemon like Rattata.

Alright with that out of the way, lets get to the VR!

S+ Tier

1. This should shock absolutely no one but I think Croconaw is THE best pokemon in the tier. When trying to decide what the best pokemon was I tried to think of what mon if I was building and had to build without which one would I not pick and Croconaw was the choice. It's just such a good mon able to fill defensive and offensive rolls and is one of the few pokemon in the tier that can actually provide defensive utility in a tier as offensive of GSC ZU. Rest/Sleep Talk/Ice Beam or Rock Slide/Surf is just so splashable and can fit on 99% of teams. Other sets are also worth mention such as the curse rest talk set which once weepinbell/bayleef is gone can easily clean most teams. Ultimately theirs little if any reason not to run Croconaw and anyone building for the tier or playing it should be ready to deal with it.

2. If Croconaw is so broken for its defensive and offensive utility Magby is so strong because of how potent and offensive threat it is. It's fast has good coverage and can run a wide variety of moves and items that can help it get past its usual checks. Charcoal sunny day becomes a game of hope you can get your opponets predictions right before sunny day wears off or you're losing a mon. the regular 4 attack set is also incredibly strong and makes it so even letting certain mons take a little bit of chip can let Magby clean late game. All it takes is 1 crit from this thing to absolutely end any chance of winning a game. You can also run thief no item Magby which lets you cripple the Croconaw switchin (the best mon in the tier) and lets Magby wear down Croconaw and other mons much easier.

S- Tier
3. I had such a hard time with this and trying to decide if it is worth putting with the other 2 or if it should go into A+ and ultimately I decided it's still better then all the A+ mons but not on the same scale as Magby or Croconaw. Don't let this downplay its viability though. Togetic is absolutely a threat and every team should be prepared to deal with it. Curse DE RestTalk can absolutely 6-0 bad teams and is an incredibly threatening set. The issue with it is that it's too reliant on sleep talk rolls. If you don't get the right rolls a lot of the time it's easy to deal with Togetic. If you could always pull the correct roll with sleep talk Togetic would probably be broken but a lot of the time you are praying to RNG. I actually think the 2 attacks RestTalk set is just as good as the Curse DE set and should actually be run and fits better on more teams. Ultimately though Togetic does a lot. Because of its typing and stats it can just blanket check a lot of the meta and just sit in on mons. It's a good mon but you can build without Togetic and be fine but It's a threat you should prepare for and make sure you have ways to deal with it.

A+ Tier
4. Smoochum was so close to being in S- and maybe one day I'll change my mind and she will make it up there but I just think she isn't there yet. Smoochum is a great mon as it beats Bayleef and Weepingbell and also beats Togetic. It's also worth noting that Croconaw with IB over RS is a matchup thats slightly favoured by Smoochum as all it takes is 1 spdef drop and Croconaw like Togetic is relying on getting the right rolls and only has a 33% chance of getting the right one as IB does very little and Rest just provides more oppurtunity for spdef drops from psychic. Once again you can run thief on this like magby to both cut down on Magby's longetivity and also make the Croconaw matchup better. Other moves are sing making it one of the fastest sleep inducers although you are relying on the accuracy of Sing, The biggest thing holding it back is Blizzards accuracy and the fact that it is just barely not fast enough to still get outsped by notable pokemon. If it had a bit more speed it'd be up with Magby and Croconaw. Smoochum is still an absolute menace though and a great choice for teams.

5. Bayleef is an interesting mon. It looks like it should be no where near the top losing to both Magby and Smoochum but the strength of Bayleef lies in the fact that it actually offers defnsive utility which is a rarity in the tier. Let's it check mons like Croconaw, ground types like Sandslash, Diglett, and Onix. It also has recovery other then rest meaning you aren't reliant on sleep talk rolls to be useful and check mons. Leech Seed helps against mons like curse rest talk Togetic. A thing worth noting is that for a final slot I really enjoy HP Rock or Ancientpower as it allows you to punish the Magby or Smoochum switch. Also worth noting Bayleef can take a fire blast from non charcoal Magby at full and KO a weakened one with HP Rock/Ancientpower

6. Weepinbell is like Bayleefs offensive cousin. Access to Sleep Powder makes it a scary mon to switch into and with swords dance it beats both of the common rest talkers in Togetic and Croconaw. Granted it needs to get the right rolls against RestTalk Curse Togetic. Once paralysis has been spread or if you're faster mons are gone Weepinbell becomes hard to deal with as very little in the tier wants to switch into a +2 Sludge Bomb or HP Ground and Onix needs to be careful of the Giga Drain variant. Weepinbell can be a terrifying mon especially on paraspam teams which can be easy to spread.

A Tier

7. Diglett is the fastest relevant mon in a tier as offensive as GSC ZU along with decent attack and just enough coverage to make Diglett the premier late game cleaner in the tier. It does need a bit of chip to reliably sweep but this is easy enough throughout the course of a game. The biggest thing holding it back from being higher is that it's just doesn't hit hard enough on pokemon it can't hit Soft Sand EQ on. That being said Diglett is a top tier late game win con and works especially well when paired with another ground type like Sandshrew/Onix

8. Tentacool is an incredibly scary sweeper. It's access to stab Sludge Bomb combined with moves like Hydro Pump make it an absolute menace to switch into. Combine this with the only relevant pokemon that outspeed being Magby and Diglett and speedtieing with Onix and you have a very scary mon that can easily get out of hand. It's very one dimensional but it does it's job so well that it doesn't make it any less threatening. One set to make note of is it's access to the move Barrier. Now it has some disadvantageous to Substitute but I can say with absolute certainity that Barrier Tenta can be terrifying when your answer to Tentacool is outspeed with Diglett.

9. Here's probably gonna be another controversial choice but yes I do think Grimer is better then Koffing the majority of the time. Not only does it have more attack making Sludge Bomb more threatening and it's explosion get some koes that Koffing can't but the bigger factor is it's SpDef. It has more SpDef then Koffing meaning while it takes slightly more damage on the physical side it it takes significantly less on the special side letting it emergency check certain special mons in a pinch. Just for reference Magby Fire Blast almost never 2hkoes Grimer and Tentacool Hydro Pump never 2hkoes Grimer but both attacks always 2hko Koffing. Now that that's explained onto what Grimer actually does it's a check to certain sweepers. Thanks to haze it can check Curse Togetic and also Check Weepinbell especially HP Groundless variants and and Tentacool. You can even run MiracleBerry to improve the Weepinbell matchup and worst case scenario thanks to lack of ghosts and Onix fearing Giga Drain you'll trade 1 for 1 but you can ussually get even more value out of Grimer.

A- Tier

10. Koffing is similar in function and role to Grimer. Koffing's benefits over Grimer is the fact that its Defense lets it check Certain threats like Weepinbell and Curse Togetic slightly better then Grimer and also it has access to Pain Split. A lot of the time you'll just be booming on the mons you are trying to check anyways so at worst you'll trade 1 for 1 but the fact Koffing has lower attack means some mons will live an Explosion from Koffing vs Grimer.

11. Dratini is such an underrated mon and I know from experience cause when I first started playing this tier I thought it was awful but now I'm a big Dratini fan. It's typing means that it resists every move Magby commonly runs letting it come in routinely and then start spamming paralysis. Dratini is the best paraspammer in the tier as it's access to ice beam means Diglett, Sandshrew and Onix fear switching in. It has good coverage moves making it hard to switch into. A common moveset is IB/Tbolt/T-Wave/HP Rock. Now it's not without faults. Because all it's moves are non stab sturdier walls like Bayleef and Rest Talk Togetic can switch in pretty freely but againt more offensive teams it's a great tool and can help enable slower mons like Sandshrew to sweep late game.

12. Onix is an interesting mon with a few interesting tools to set it apart from Diglett. It has access to the moves Sharpen and Explosion letting it perform the job as both a set up sweeper, late game sweeper and wallbreaker. Additionally while Onix is weaker then Diglett Sharpen lets it boost it's Attack and it also gets STAB on Rock Slide letting it reliably come in and check RestTalk Curse Togetic. I personally think Onix performs best when paired with a mon like Diglett as Onix can Sharpen as something like Bayleef or Croconaw comes in and then BOOM paving the way for Diglett to sweep. Works well on sun teams too.

13. Probably the de facto lead of GSC ZU. The biggest issue for Butterfree is it suffers from "no good stab syndrome". That being said Butterfree still has enough tools to be useful. It's the fastest relevant sleeper in the tier. On top of this it has just enough coverage with Psychic, HP Rock, Giga Drain to threaten the majority of the metagame. It also has the option of running Stun Spore over one of these moves. Ultimately Butterfree is best played as a sleep an opposing mon Stun Spore some faster mons do some damage and die. It's honestly not a bad a mon especially against super offensive teams, it just struggles to break past stuff like Bayleef and Togetic and Croconaw if it's not running Giga Drain.

14. Sandshrew is a really cool mon. The most obvious flaw is that it's slow as hell but their are a lot of good paralysis spreaders that can help enable it to sweep. Really only functions on paraspam teams or paired with something like Diglett to wear each others checks down. It does get SD though something Diglett and Onix don't have and it also has the highest attack of the 3 grounds.

B+ Tier

15. Nidorino is a cool mon purely for the fact it has good coverage and reliable recovery that's not rest in the form of Morning Sun which is a rarity for the tier. It also gets Lovely Kiss so if you have no other sleeper on the team you can run that. Worth noting that it's better to run Thunder/Blizzard vs IB/Tbolt as it gets some important 2hkoes Tbolt/IB don't

15. Mareep holds a niche as the only viable electric type in the tier. Unfortunately it's pitiful bulk holds it back severely and it has to run either Magnet Tbolt or Lefties Thunder to 2hko Togetic. However just being the only viable electric type in a tier filled with electric weaks lets it find its way on some teams.

17. Fastest viable normal type in the tier and the fact that their are 0 ghosts makes it very easy to spam Double Edge. You also sit at a nice speed tier only being outsped by Magby and Diglett. Lack of coverage and not hitting hard enough hold it back. Endure Flail can become a scary late game cleaner against weakened teams and it also gets a stab priority move another rarity in the tier. Usually paired with other normals like Teddiursa

B Tier

18. Just a less offensive Nidorino. Most of the same things for Nidorino apply to Nidorina however better bulk and access to Moonlight give it some staying power. Again Thunder is needed to 2hko Croconaw but on Nidorina you can get away with Tbolt/IB if you like since you arent gonna get the same koes as Nidorino

19. Normal type with access to curse. Can run Curse RestTalk but if often outclassed by Togetic. Pair with Curse RestTalk Togetic to wear each others checks down or with Doduo. Really only used on normal spam teams.

20. Just a more defensive fire type. Fire Blast is needed to OHKO Weepingbell. Generally Magby does everything this does but better. It has a niche as a RestTalk Fire type though which is really the only set you should run if you are gonna use Growlithe. Also has a niche as a fire spam mon on Sunny Day teams.

I want to make a note here that from this point on you get to mons that have very very limited viability. If you are a new player and using this to build teams or get ideas I HIGHLY recommend not even bothering with any mons below this point until you get a better grasp of the tier as their is very little upside and huge opportunity cost to using these.

B- Tier
21. Bad Typing but the only 100% accurate sleep user which gives it some kind of niche as an antilead. Can also run Swords Dance with its 95 Attack but no STAB makes it not hit hard enough. Also can spread paralysis with Stun Spore and gets Thief.

22. Only Heal Bell user in the tier. Can help it wake up teams and can also run its own RestTalk set with Heal Bell. Has a place on super defensive teams but that's about it.

23. Tied for fastest user in the tier lets it run an endure reversal set. Just doesn't hit hard enough and is fairly obvious so easy to just status

C Tier
24. Spider Web + Baton Pass. That's it. That's all it does. when it works it can be game ending but it doesn't work often enough.

25. Fastest fighting type gets access to Meditate and Sub to boost Attack. All the Poison types in the tier kinda hurt it though as well as just not being fast enough or hitting hard enough

26. Bulkier Mankey. Curse RestTalk is really the only thing it has going for it.

27. Gets stab Psychic gets Drill Peck. Can run HP Grass to beat stuff like Onix I guess. Not a lot to say
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The rest of the mons are just too niche to be worth mentioning or are just not even worth ranking. Hopefully the 4 other people who play GSC ZU will like this because this post took too long to make. I would love other people to post their own thoughts on the metagame. If you ever see me online you can always ask me for a game. I'll make sure to post some teams and underrated sets at some point too. Any Questions about anything I said or the tier in general feel free to pm me or post here and I'll try to answer to the best of my ability. Thanks for reading!

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[Tuthur]

SM ZU council is holding a tiering survey. With two slots in ZUPL and Exeggutor's ban, the metagame experienced a lot of development and the council is looking forward your opinion on the tier, so we can lead tiering actions in the right direction (or not lead any at all). Your opinion definitely matter for the future of this tier, so don't hesitate to take a minute to fill it in.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

ORAS ZU was a lot of fun this year. Personally the meta is fine, albeit the Purugly centralization could be something worth exploring. If I get a random mega burst of motivation, I might help with resources. A lot there could be updated. For now, I just wanted to comment on the S / A ranks of what I think represents the metagame. I will also follow this post with a teamdump post.

S tier

Just this. It's too good. You don't need Hidden Power. You don't need speed or Choice Scarf. You just need Glare, Knock Off, and Synthesis with good bulk and eventually you'll start making wacko progress through teams. Gen6 paralysis is so bonkers and Glare is the best use of it. Building around Servine is likely the best think you can do, and obviously it fits fine because it's a good special wall; sometimes a physical wall works for it as well.

A+
Simple. We all know it's great as a pivot / revenge killer in a metagame where chip damage reigns supreme. Not S tier imo due to centralization of counters.
I love how customizable it's proven to be. It's a great threat, but unfortunately the Grass-typing is heavily polluted in the metagame so I can't say it's on par with Servine.
You can't go wrong slapping buzz on teams. I gambled on RestTalk one week and it payed off, so it's got that going for it too.
Defoggers are slim pickings, and Dustox is already the best wall in the metagame for compressing Defog with slow pivoting, absorbing tspikes, phazing, and checking physical attackers and most Grass-types alike. How can you avoid this in the teambuilder if you're building balance or VoltTurn? It be tough, that's for sure.

A
Not many Fire-types to choose from (Magmar is a close second don't worry we'll get to it) and Pignite is the star on a ton of FWG teams.
Probs the best Purr counter available, so we see it a lot on balance. The added perks of setting SR and switching into Knock Off is also stellar, and I think the metagame is great for it.
The mix of bulk and good enough speed makes Politoad a fantastic pick. Recently, I showed off the potential of both Protect + Encore, and Politoad stomaching a boosted Dragonair's Outrage to KO back with Ice Beam. It's a great idea to build around Politoad, especially for FWG cores.
Our best stallbreaker. Why are the Grass- and Poison-types so overcrowded ;-;
Sap Sipper + SD offers so much setup pottential. The coverage is awesome. I shoulda used this more but +2 Double-Edge destroys any team lacking Goug.
My favorite setup cleaner. I mean, it's a good Steel-type. What could go wrong?
Likely, Magmar is my favorite Choice Scarf user, but Choice Specs is also nutty.
Most of my build prefer Politoad, but outside of BO, I think Simipour does fine.
Future Sight + Regenerator is one of my favorite things, and Dou actually fits on a lot of great cores so this works.
Generally, Carbink is better, but they're practically the same. To avoid being cteamed by Steel-type coverage like Scraggy's Iron Head, I think you need to incorporate Gigalith into your teambuilder. Still a fantastic wall.
I like wall-y sets more than setup these days. Knock Off paired with Roar is cool.

A-
I don't think its awful. You need Defog and Vibrava does the job fine.
Spikes lol
Good wall. Important enough in the builder to recognize.
Best offensive Ghost-type, which I think can be very important as a spinblocker + breaker
I love this mon like you wouldn't believe but Wake-Up Slap Purr makes me cry.
Wall, too crowded of a typing, why use this? You can, and the teams with it are probs fine, but man I'd rather have the offensive perks of the Grasses than defensive perks. We have Dustox that basically does this job.
Fishy wallbreaker
Great offensive support.


That's it. I made a lot of cuts and there's mons like Krokorok and Furf that I think are good but ultimately too outclassed for the A ranks. Alternatively, mons like Vibrava and Gigalith made the cut because they're the best alternatives to top picks that then fosters usage of really good offensive threats on BO / balance. That's a little more nuanced but because of that diversity, I consider them top tier. Some current A ranks like Foragadier and Jumpluff just don't cut it. Hell I'd but frog on par with (or worse than) Phione of all things.

I'm also adding this:

How to Build Basic, Consistent Bulky Offense Teams In ORAS ZU
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1. Defogger Physical Wall + Pivot

Spikes are too good in ORAS so you'll need countermeasures, surely. Dustox is usually the best. You can also try Tentacool if you want more security when using Spikes yourself; just make #3 a physical wall like Quilladin instead. These pivots are also crucial at gaining momentum,

2. Rock-type physical wall #2

These guys make good physical walls, but basically when you're running a Defogger you need a counter to Defiant Purugly. Carbink is the best and I'd really be careful using Lairon these days when Wake-Up Slap is running around; you also cant run Rocky Helmet, so what's the point?

3. Special Wall

Pretty simple concept. You need something for special attacks too. These guys do well.

4-6. Offensive support, wallbreakers, and stallbreakers.

Need for speed... lol. Revenge killing is vital, yo. This is where you can have start having fun experimenting with different threats. Fire-Water-Grass cores tend to be very easy to build and do great, so I wouldn't deviate from including these types if you're new. It'll also be up to you to include another wall if you wanted to; Duosion + Servine work really well together, for example. As does Duosion + Roar Scraggy. Otherwise, a combination of bulky offense threats like Pignite, Ivysaur, and Politoad, for example, work great with something fast.

The best combo of the first three? Dustox / Carbink / Servine, most likely, or replace Servine with Dousion so you could use a broken Grass-type like Simisage or Ivysaur. It's that simple.

I did this strat for every game bar the one time I did HO to shake things up. It's a really simple formula. Wait for my teamdump post to see it in action.

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