Resource SM ZU Viability Rankings (VR Changes #375)

[5gen]

Dusclops is B, B+ easily, not C- with the right set and an eviolite he can stall out most of the meta game

252 Hp
92 Def
164 SPDef

Eviolite

Nightshade
Toxic
Rest
Sleep Talk

Running this along side intimidate phys def Mawhile is hard to break through, and Dusclops alone can just win the game if you can't break through him. Need RNG crits to beat it sometimes.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-741871196

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-741855454

Dusclops is so obnoxious. All I'm saying :)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-741981836

Next time please edit a replay into your first post as to not double post. Onto the nom, Dusclops didn't really do anything spectacular in those matches. Game 1 Dusclops put Monferno on a timer with Toxic and beat Golem 1v1 at the end. Game 2 Dusclops beat SD Silvally-Electric and was heavily weakened in the process, dying the next turn to Ninetales. In the third game Dusclops didn't do much other than throw off Toxic a few times and pressure the Pinsir. Dusclops definitely has a niche as a bulky Ghost-type, but it is in C- mainly because of its passiveness and the fact that Gourgeist-Large gives it stiff competition. Also, your post should really explain why Dusclops deserves to rise, what makes Dusclops tough to break through, and its advantages/disadvantages in the current metagame.

 

[DaReaperknot]

Next time please edit a replay into your first post as to not double post. Onto the nom, Dusclops didn't really do anything spectacular in those matches. Game 1 Dusclops put Monferno on a timer with Toxic and beat Golem 1v1 at the end. Game 2 Dusclops beat SD Silvally-Electric and was heavily weakened in the process, dying the next turn to Ninetales. In the third game Dusclops didn't do much other than throw off Toxic a few times and pressure the Pinsir. Dusclops definitely has a niche as a bulky Ghost-type, but it is in C- mainly because of its passiveness and the fact that Gourgeist-Large gives it stiff competition. Also, your post should really explain why Dusclops deserves to rise, what makes Dusclops tough to break through, and its advantages/disadvantages in the current metagame.

Well in the Golem match it also 1v1'd Dusknoir (Which in theory should be a check), and than proceeded to 1v1 Golem, but I will admit if my opponent didn't click Fire Punch with Dusknoir, and instead started with Shadow Sneak it would of been a different story. I also felt that Dusclops may not have seemed to do much in those games, but I felt it fulfilled it's roll, perfectly dictating the game to my pace, and whittling key threats I needed off the field, while also forcing my opponent to react to it, rather then think it is set up bait, as most passive Pokemon are.

I'd still make the argument that it wins a 1v1 against almost every bulky Pokemon without knock off in the ZU metagame like Type-Null, and Torterra. It is true that Dusclops is usually a very passive Pokemon, but with the lack of many Steel and Poison types in the meta game, or many high powered attackers that can threaten a 3koh like in the PU meta game, Dusclops has a lot more room to move in ZU. Toxic paired with Nightshade is a great way to chip away at an opponent, and put pressure on them, while helping you get a sweep going, and like with Pinsir in my match, you can force your opponent to continue going to the only knock off user they have in hopes of actually threatening Dusclops, which allows you to dictate the game leading to a safe set up for your sweeper

Even with its passive nature, Dusclops can still help you block a sweep in ZU, as it can 1v1 plus 2 Mr. Mime after rocks with just Nightshade, while even having hope if Mr. Mime lands the Z Hypnosis with sleep talk, and it can also effectively burn (if running willo) and whittle Belly Drum Poliwrath, which are a few of the Pokemon I have been seeing a lot of in the ZU meta game. Even if it is not running Willo it will break the sub on Poliwrath with Nightshade, get a toxic off on the Belly Drum, and if at full eat one plus 6 waterfall in order to get one more Night Shade off to limit the time they have to sweep.

Gourgeist is a tough contender, but with the strongest Pokemon in the metagame Rotom-Frost ohkoing it, while with 164 SPDef Dusclops only takes 25% from anything Rotom Frost is doing. The lack of Eviolite on Gourgeist just makes it too vulnerable to take Special attacks in this meta. Gourgeist really only stands up better to Poliwrath when looking at the A ranked Pokemon. Dusclops is just more useful in this particular meta, though I will agree Gourgeist is much better in PU, as it can check more physical threats. The ZU meta just feels so good for Dusclops, and I still stand by my solid B, B+ rating.

Sorry for the messed up format. This is my first time participating in these articles, so I am new to the process.

 

[DaReaperknot]

I'm going to note that Dusclops should always use Seismic Toss, not Night Shade, so that you can pressure Vigoroth. This is also a reason to use the ability Pressure, although it is not required, as you can pp stall easier. With Toxic over Will-O-Wisp this would be even more necessary, as you can time a Toxic to hit when Substitute is not up. Wisp is not useless either, however, as it gives Dusclops a much better time checking Pinsir, particularly for a stall team, since stall teams traditionally struggle against Pinsir unless they have something like Dusclops that can take any hit and cripple. Dusclops is an actually functional pokemon in our meta now, on the upside, since we lost Stout and Ursa. I already have plans to make sure it gets its dues.

I can see your argument for Seismic Toss, and you'd have to choose between being walled by Vigoroth, or Misdreavus, Dusknoir, and opposing Dusclops. I also think Toxic deals with the Bulk Up set on Vigoroth, unless they are running Shadow Claw. I also don't think Dusclops should be staying in on anything with Knock Off unless you are prepared to sac it because once that Eviolite falls off, Dusclops suddenly becomes a liability on your team that can't threaten anything. Probably why the council insists it is a C- at best, but if you can play around that Knock, Dusclops is a savage wall.

 

[tegrof19]

Toxic deals with the Bulk Up set on Vigoroth.

simply not true

Sub Bulk Up Vigoroth... teammates with Toxic, Vigoroth can actually out-stall Ghosts.

 

[Tuthur]

I think the viability ranking should get some update:

A-> B+ I don't understand why it rose: Crustle, Lycanroc and Bouffalant already deal with Steel-type thanks to Eq. I've been using a lot this mon and I think it shouldn't be that high in the VR. It's defensive typing is terrible, Ground and Fighting coverage are everywhere and forces Probopass out. Probopass offensive set are slow and weak. They are nich to trap the rare steel types in other Probopass, Metang, Mawile and Pawniard. This niche doesn't warrant an A-rank with all the Ground and Fighting they are in ZU. Defensive set aren't that good to. Watching through S- and A-ranks, it checks 9 of the offensive threats (Rotom-F, Kadabra, Vigoroth, Chatot, Manectric, Mawile, Muk, Beheeyem, and Ninetales). But they either Volt-Turn on it: (Rotom-F, Chatot, Manectric) or have a way to deal with it (HP Ground/ Fighting Kadabra, Seismisc Toss Vigoroth, HP fighting/Ground Chatot, Superpower Mawile, Brick Break Muk and Defensive or HP Fighting/Ground Beheeyem). Golem, Grumpig, Lycanrock, Poliwrath, Torterra, Bouffalant, Combusken, Monferno, Pinsir, Dugtrio-Alola, and Rapidash all can OHKO Prob. Moreover Probopass is set up fodder to one of the best sweeper: Torterra.
tldr: the meta is pretty unkinded for this Mon.

A+->S Defensive sets are super effective but imo best Torterra's set is SD+RP. With its super 95/105/85 bulk it can easily get one or two boost and proceed to clean team. If your team lacks a Grass-type which isn't Torterra or Roselia, or a Scarf above 90 base speed, you're going to have problems with this set. Torterra can set up on some of the most popular Pokémon like Lycanroc, Golem and electric-type locking into an electric move.

A+->S I don't think I need to explain this one. Both of its set are really strong and have different answers which makes it even stronger.

B ->B+ I know it's just dropped to B but: it don't understand the comparison with Crustle. Roselia is a defensive Pokémon when Crustle a suicide lead is. Moreover unlike other hazard setters Roselia beats the most common Defoger: Silvally-Water (it beats every special silvally variant bar ice and fire which are unmons). It has access to 3 incredibely useful support moves in, Spikes, T-Spikes and Sleep Powder. Even if you don't run all of them their distribution are very limited (through S and A ranks there is only one Sleep Powder user and one Spikes user). And I'd like you to read the reason of Huntail's drop which is just above Roselia's one:

Huntail B+ -> B With an abundance of Scarf Electric-types, fat Grass-types, and bulky Water-types, Huntail just struggles to do much in this meta. It's too frail to consistently set up and tends to drop to priority or a Scarfer even if it does. Unfortunately, it doesn't really have a place in B+.

Roselia beats every Electric-type bar Rotom-F which can only come once on Roselia if SR are up (0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Frost: 93-109 (38.5 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock). And unlike other Grass-type Roselia survives Blizzard meaning it can scoot for what move Scarf Frostom will use:
252 SpA Rotom-Frost Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 174-206 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Roselia beats every fat Grass-types bar the rare Quilladin and Torterra.
Roselia beats every water-type bar Belly-Drum Poliwrath.
I know Torterra is very popular but so are Poliwrath and Silvally-Water.
Other nominations I agree with are Silvally-Fighting B- -> B+ and Dusclops higher in Cs.

 

[Apagogie]

Probopass A- -> B+ Disagree
I'm not agree to say the meta isn't kind with probopass right now. The defensive probopass set works always very well. None of the mons you list except maybe poliwrath like to switch into Probopass with stories of toxic/earth power/volt switch/taunt. On the subject of the threats which probo, regardless hp, the threat has to run a set less effective than the standard one to be able to get rid of probopass which means the results is approximately the same if probo forces the opponent to play a set less threaten to be able to bypass it. The role of probopass is to compress different roles in only one slot, it's a frosttom switch-in able to put the SR, able to get rid of muk, put the pressure of defensive builds with taunt or in toxic annoying mons and can gain the momentum thanks to volt switch.

Torterra A+ -> S Strongly Agree
Torterra is the best Pokémon in ZU actually. The defensive sets supports the team to an insane level, able to come on approximately every mon not running SE moves, especially on one of the more dangerous mon which is Lycanroc. Even with that, it can run Occa or Yache Berry to get rid of mons who thought be able to kill it. Its bulk is just insane, how many times do I bypass grumpig and kadabra just with a max hp Torterra ? None mon S+ to A- can switch to peacefully on its defensive set, you have to check every time if it runs toxic or not.

And I don't even talk about its offensive RP/SD set which is just a button click A to win against balanced teams. You just have to find the moment to set up which isn't very difficult thanks to the Torterra bulk and it's the end of the battle. This set is strong too against stall. It's a deathful set which destroys every unprepared team.

The support Torterra provides to a team and the dangerousity of its RP/SD set makes it the best Pokemon in ZU right now. Put it S

Vigoroth A+ -> S Disagree
Without closing the eyes on the pressure Vigo makes in a battle and in teambuiling, I don't think it is a S worthy. In my opinion, Vigo is more an unhealthy mon than a definition of the metagame.

The reason why I think that is Vigoroth doesn't provide any support to a team. Remove Vigoroth and your team will be certainly less threating, will lack certainly of a wincondition but not less viable. When you add Vigoroth to a team, the teammates support Vigoroth, not the opposite. You need something to get rid of ghost types especially for the sub version, to come on poliwrath if you are running taunt, to get rid of stall if you run sub, to have a strong answer to fighting types, to do not let you sweep by lycanroc which set up pretty easily on both sets. The support required is far more important than to our two other S mons. It isn't as splashable as Torterra and Frosttom are, it needs a team build around its utilization to be deathful.

Roselia B -> B+ Agree ... And even A-
This mon is awesome, I didn't understand either why it dropped. It's one of the best answer to tank poli, it gives to a team an incredible support with spikes/toxic spikes which is annoying for plenty of teams right now. Get rid of Roselia is also pretty difficult, you have only few mons able to switch into and deal with it back. It likes a lot how the meta, the fighting resistance thanks to the poison type is particularly very useful.

Silvally-Fighting B- -> B/B+ Agree
I will be quick here but Silvally-Fighting is our second better Silvally form. If the classical Defog set offers a lot of utilities in pivoting, in getting rid of Vigo, in checking Dugtrio-Alola and Lycanroc with a bit of hp investment, in coming easily on the stealth rock, the SD three attacks is very threaten for balanced teams. It likes a lot too the departure of mushy.

Dusclops C- -> Higher Agree (C- -> C+)
Dusclops is obviously a very good option to stall teams in being one of the few mons able to switch on choice band Bouffalant or Electivire. Stall becames a playstyle very correct and only that justifies fully a rise of dusclops. But even without in stall, Dusclops can have its utility. I stole the CM version to pink and that's pretty effective - without being awesome - against a lot of teams. It's a solid counter/check to a lot of dangerous threats such as ninjask, electivre, subvigy, torterra. A rise is justified.

My nominations :

Rises

B -> B+
Awesome mon. Its three attacks RP threats a lot of teams without grumpig, its Z-Gravity set is threaten as well but the best set for me stays the Resttalk set. Tank Regice has a bulk insane, able to take stuff such as Simipour Focus blast at +2, perfectly handles Frosttom moves and every special moves even SE. All I said was already true before but Regice becomes much stronger recently. New drops aren't affected much its viability (none of the new drops comes on boltbeam) but in the same time grass type such as torterra, roselia, leafeon, servine, silvally-grass and lurantis become all stronger for their ability to get rid of annoying stuff like poliwrath/pyukumuku which are both very common due to Lycanroc. Regice likes that a lot, especially since it threats too Poliwrath/Torterra and comes easily on missy which fits in lot of teams to its ability to deal with the two set of vigy. It's a mon very splashable in balanced and bulky offense, an answer to a lot of annoying stuff, always a good pick when you build a team, it deserves a rise for that.

B- -> B
B- is a bit severe for Lurantis. It suffers a lot for the comparaison with Servine which, even if you can find common points, isn't totally correct. I'm agree to say Lurantis is outclassed in its defog set by Servine but we have to keep an outlook on the other sets. I know a lot of you hate facing Lurantis when you battle your opponent. It is very understandable because it runs plenty of variants which makes very difficult to predict, it is a part of its strength but I woud like to focus especially on a set to make a clear difference with Servine. It's the superpower sets which are the more threating in my opinion because it makes Lurantis difficult to revenge kill. If I have a Servine in front of me, I'm not especially scared because I know I can deal with the scarf version and RK the set with defog with my lycanroc for example. This doesn't happen with Lurantis, you cannot kill it peacefully with your Z-Move if it does one superpower. The physical sets are too very customisable, you can run Resttalk, Knock off + Z-Aromatherapy or All out Attacker. As I said above, grass type are pretty effective too right now with the presence of a lot of water and rock types. Lurantis is more than a outclassed mon almost useless to play, it's a mon different to servine with its qualities and its flaws which is actually very effective against the meta. A rise is fully deserved too.

Drops

Purugly B+ -> B
We could believe that with the departure of Stoutland/Ursaring, it will make physical normal type better. That was a part of the true but Purugly doesn't benefict much for that. Stoutland and Ursaring were both strong wallbreaker, Purugly doesn't fill this void. Now when we're looking to the new drops, you regret a lot that Purugly doesn't learn good fighting move. Cannot pass Lycanroc + speed tie + steadfast, liepard is an issue because even if they don't have exactly the same role you'll never play both in a single team and liepard can TW, even if at the first outlook crustle could look a nice addition to purugly it's annoying to face it with stories of rock typing/weak armor, Dugtrio Alola, Poliwrath more present than never, can only pivot against torterra,... Purugly stays a decent mon in adapted teams but not a splashable threat.

Marowak B -> B-/C+
Torterra. It's terrible to say but when you're a wallbreaker totally unable to bypass torterra, your match-up versus the opposite team is biased. I could add that poliwrath is an issue, Torterra too, Koff of Liepard is annoying, Torterra too, Maro has trouble to pass tangela stall, Torterra too, why do you use Marowak in wallbreaking when you can play bouffalant band or toucannon who break both torterra/poli, Torterra, slow as hell even in ZU, Torterra, when is the last time did you see a Marowak team outside TR, Torterra, TR has plenty other options than Marowak, Torterra,...

Wishiwashi B -> B-/C+
Same reasonning than Marowak except you just have to swap Torterra by Poliwrath. Oh, and Marowak can be played outside TR, that's impossible with Wishiwashi.

Relicanth B -> C+/C
Torterra and Poliwrath. Relicanth finds its place almost only in rain and Armaldo is always a good pick instead of it. No much reasons to play Relicanth except for that.

B -> C
Liepard. Its only utility is in second rain setter.

B- -> C
It only works on offense to revenge kill Lycanroc... It's the only reason to use it, that's a tiny niche. Its Alola form is just better in the other situations. Oh and do I have to mention Torterra ?

C+ -> Lower
Poliwrath + Torterra + Liepard + Lurantis + Dugtrio Alola. That's the part of the list of the new mons/new mons strong in the meta and too the mons which give trouble to solrock. You can swap Solrock everytime to an other mon which does the job simply better. No much reasons to still play it.

Silvally-Dark C+ -> C/C-
Liepard

Lycanroc Midnight C -> Unranked
Lycanroc. The small other things it has over Lycanroc (better bulk, no guard) aren't sufficient to justify a rank. In the precedent meta, it could maybe benefict for the surprise effect and the lack of counters in the opposite team but right now everyone takes stuff like torterra, poliwrath, pyukumuku, RK in offense,...

C -> Unranked
It doesn't have a niche. Whatever team you made, you'll always find a better option to put instead of avalugg, even in stall (rapid spin is anyway arguably less good than defog in stall). According to the rest of the C rank which gets a small reason to be played, avalugg doesn't have one. Unranked it.

C- -> Uranked
Crustle + Lycanroc lead.


Other noms I made before and still actual

B -> B-
Armaldo isn't less good than before, I just think B- is more accurate for it, next to Sandslash. Arma is a soft check to Stout but weak to SR is bad so they are globally equivalent. Webs team are less seen than before too so rapid spin loses a bit of its utility.

B -> C+/C
Its Choice band set is meh. Dusknoir performs only in TR setter and isn't the best one either in this role. Basically it puts the TR and then suicide itself with Memento or Z-Memento and even if it is not bad at all in this function it's really a specific niche. Dusknoir is effective only in TR and absolutely not mandatory inside, B is unfortunately far too high for what it really does in the ZU Meta. That's too bad, I like a lot this mon.
+ Liepard

B -> B-
Noctowl requires a stupid level of support to be effective and a large number of turns. Its best set is certainly the Agility Work Up one but that's really difficult to set up. Even if they don't have exactly the same role, after some tests you will realize chatot specs in just better in the majority of the situations. There are not a lot of reasons to use still noctowl, especially since except soundproof users, they have also the same checks.
+ Lycanroc, Liepard (TW/encore), Duggy-Alola, Crustle

B- -> C+
Munchlax isn't less good than before but there is actually no much reasons to play it. As I said above, Mushy, Vigo, Muk are all very effective in the current meta and you will choose rather them like wincon than baby Snorlax. Munchlax is just outclassed for the moment, you gonna play it only if your team is very weak to fire and ice, that's all.

B- -> C+
Only effective in TR in Eruption abuser (the sr set is bad) and not mandatory inside. Camerupt is simply more a niche mon only effective with the right support than a good mon splashable in your team. It's not less good than before but has no many reasons to be played and can be generally substitute by an other breaker in tr teams.

C+ -> Unranked
I maybe missed something but what Illumise concretely does ? What's the point ? I don't really know
+ Liepard

C -> Unranked
Outclassed by Sandslash/Armaldo in spinner, by Camerupt in Eruption abuser under TR, by Magcargo (lol) in Shell Smash Abuser. Torkoal is useless, it has no utility, unrank it.

C- -> Unranked
Be immunised to a resisted type isn't enough to justify a rank. There is no reason to play it instead of Silvally-Water. Bye Lumy, we liked you... in 6gen.

C- -> Unranked
This mon tricks AV... Ummm did this strategy already work ? I don't think so. Unrank

 

[Yahooboo]

View attachment 114539 Crustle A- ---> A+

This guy seems to have a really good time in this meta right now. Once Crustle sets up with a White Herb he becomes a terror to shut down, so he can end up forcing panic switches from anything that can't shut it down the second he touches the field, which allows him also to be a great Rock setter.

View attachment 114540Sliggoo

I'm also surprised not to see this guy in the tiers. I'm honestly not sure where it should fall, but I feel it deserves a place in this meta. Eviolite or Choice Specs Sliggoo can both perform well in Zu. Decent Dragon types are hard to come by, and Fairy types are not all over the place with the exception of Mr. Mime respectively. Sliggoo gets immaculate coverage with Fireblast, BoltBeam, Sludgewave, and I also can't think of any other Draco Meteor users off the top of my head that are viable in Zu. I will admit it doesn't have a very good time against most of the A list, and has no recovery, but I still think it deserves a look because of the unique Gooey ability, and also Sap Sipper which can allow it to surprise an opponent with a speed drop to end a sweep, or come out on threats like Torterra (who is arguable the best pokemon in the tier) when predicting Wood Hammer. Sliggoo naturally outspeeds Torterra when both are uninvested, and will easily kill it with Ice Beam.

60+ Atk Torterra Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sliggoo: 223-264 (65.5 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Torterra Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sliggoo: 262-310 (77 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sliggoo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torterra: 548-648 (139 - 164.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Rotom-Frost Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sliggoo: 278-330 (81.7 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sliggoo Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Frost: 243-286 (100.8 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Mr. Mime Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sliggoo: 198-234 (58.2 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sliggoo Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mr. Mime: 214-254 (96.8 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

With these calcs we can see the Choice Specs set seems to have a chance against Pokemon that should check it, and will put a dent, or outright Ohko anything that doesn't resist it with Draco Meteor.

+2 252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Sliggoo: 217-256 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sliggoo Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chatot: 310-366 (105.8 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Black Glasses Liepard Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Sliggoo: 144-171 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Sliggoo Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Liepard: 298-352 (110.3 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Torterra Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Sliggoo: 177-208 (52 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sliggoo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torterra: 364-432 (92.3 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

Sliggoo can also reliably revenge kill these special threats even at plus 2 with Eviolite, and will live the EQ from max attack Torterra, and has a good chance to Ohko without Choice Specs. Sliggoo could also try and garunteed the Ohko on Torterra by running Blizzard in place of Ice Beam, but the accuracy probably makes it even less likely.

sliggoo's c+ on viability rankings

 

[DaReaperknot]

sliggoo's c+ on viability rankings

Oh crap I'm blind as hell ty :)

C+ sounds good, but it might be B- worthy. The calcs I did make me think it could find a lot of use against the dominant members of the tier. Especially when you can EV it to get an almost garunteed revenge kill on Poliwrath after a Belly Drum using the Gooey ability if not in Rain.

Modest @ Eviolite
252 HP
180 Special Attack
76 Speed

This spread guarantees you will outspeed Jolly Poliwrath at -1 without Rain, while still surviving a plus 6 Waterfall

+6 252 Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Eviolite Sliggoo: 212-249 (62.3 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
180+ SpA Sliggoo Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 162-192 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[wiczyk]

Hey why is bastiodon not on this list it's certainly better than things like corsola. This set is pretty good:

Bastiodon @ Red Card
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Sandstorm
- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Metal Burst

Bastiodon can tank huge hits. It gets check by fighting and ground types, so watch out for those. The purpose of the red card is so that it can stay in against golem. The strategy is they will except a switch and set up rocks and you also set up rocks. Then on turn 2 use metal burst. Golem's sturdy will make it so it doesn't die, but with the red card, bastiodon will auto kill another pokemon

 

[Yung Dramps]

Hey why is bastiodon not on this list it's certainly better than things like corsola. This set is pretty good:

Bastiodon @ Red Card
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Sandstorm
- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Metal Burst

Bastiodon can tank huge hits. It gets check by fighting and ground types, so watch out for those. The purpose of the red card is so that it can stay in against golem. The strategy is they will except a switch and set up rocks and you also set up rocks. Then on turn 2 use metal burst. Golem's sturdy will make it so it doesn't die, but with the red card, bastiodon will auto kill another pokemon

Bastiodon is pretty bad, and that's mainly due to how passive it is. It also struggles against Fighting and Ground coverage, both of which are fairly common. It's outclassed as a rocks lead by Golem, and it's outclassed as a bulky Steel type by Metang and defensive Mawile. I don't even know if the latter is a set people run, all I know is that it's probably still better than Bastiodon. Your set gets crapped on by Sucker Punch golem, btw.

 

[wiczyk]

Bastiodon is pretty bad, and that's mainly due to how passive it is. It also struggles against Fighting and Ground coverage, both of which are fairly common. It's outclassed as a rocks lead by Golem, and it's outclassed as a bulky Steel type by Metang and defensive Mawile. I don't even know if the latter is a set people run, all I know is that it's probably still better than Bastiodon. Your set gets crapped on by Sucker Punch golem, btw.

Toxic is probably a better option than sandstorm. Also sucker punch golem doesn't kill it because it gets switched out with the red card anyway and bastiodon is tanky enough for it to survive any non fighting and ground attacks.

 

[asa]

yo, i'm here today to nominate two pokemon up in this vr. i talked about them with some other people and i feel like these two pokemon deserve a higher spot due to how threatening they are and have been for a while now.

lycanroc and torterra: a+ to s

Without a single doubt in my mind, Lycanroc is the tier's best and most threatening setup sweeper. While it doesn't have the bulk to switch in or take hits as it sets up like Torterra does, it has the ability to force out a number of Pokemon and use that as a chance to use Swords Dance and become an immediate threat with very few switch-ins. Going down the list: Ninetales, Chatot, Liepard without Thunder Wave, Crustle if its Sturdy is broken, and Rapidash. These are a few examples of Pokemon that Lycanroc can easily force out and take advantage of due to its solid offensive typing and insanely good Speed tier. At +2, the main checks to Lycanroc are Torterra (can potentially lured by Fire Fang and even Z-Fire Fang, which, while not the most consistent option, is a possibility.), Poliwrath, Tangela, Pyukumuku, and Golem if its Sturdy is still intact. Aside from these, there isn't very much that can reliably deal with it at after a Swords Dance due to how powerful Splintered Stormshards becomes. Accelerock is important to note as well, since this in combination with its high Speed means that it matches up well against not just bulkier teams, but offensive teams as well. Accelerock allows Lycanroc to revenge kill Pokemon like Rotom-F and Rotom-S (two really good Choice Scarf users, which also happen to give it a free chance at using Swords Dance, since neither can OHKO Lycanroc from full.) as well as certain priority users like Monferno with enough chip damage.

Though it would probably end up being the weakest of the S ranks, that isn't enough to convince me that Torterra shouldn't be S. While the two are comparable in some regards and Lycanroc is arguably more threatening, Torterra has a few key advantages over Lycanroc. For starters, it can perform multiple roles well, including an offensive user of Stealth Rock, a defensive user of Stealth Rock, a Swords Dance user, a Rock Polish user, a dual dancer, and even a Choice Band user. Because of this, determining what exactly Torterra's going to do from Team Preview alone is almost impossible. Another thing to note is just how easy it is to use Torterra, as it fits on multiple builds and playstyles ranging from hyper offense to harder balance and even stall, which only further amplifies its unpredictability. Torterra's defensive capabilities are important to note, as its bulk and typing give it the ability to check threats such as Lycanroc, Liepard, Golem, Alolan Dugtrio, and non-Ice Beam variants of Silvally-Water, and Synthesis means that it isn't gonna be getting worn down as quickly as other defensive juggernauts can. It can do all of this while still maintaining decent offensive presence due to its high-powered STAB moves in Wood Hammer and Earthquake. Its offensive capabilities are solid too, as it is a setup sweeper that is not threatened very much by bulky Water-types, it can make use of multiple Z-Moves, the main and arguably only counters are Gourgeist-L and Bronzor, and it outspeeds Rotom-F, the most common Choice Scarf user in the tier, at +2.

so yeah. sort of long and bad post, but tldr, rank these two up and stuff!!!

 

[Apagogie]

Before to make other nominations, I would like to give my feelings about Lycanroc S. I don't have a strong opinion on this. As long as Torterra is in life in the opposite team, it is a 5vs6. In every other situations, Lycanroc is just dumb, able to get rid of its check/counter with a little chip damages (even pyuku/poliwrath). The players are adapting their team to Lycan actually so I would like to wait before giving an opinion even if I have to recognize it centralizes a lot the meta.

Few other nominations I forgot in my precedent post :

B -> B+
It's a good alternative to Metang in balanced teams due to the dangerousity of torterra and lycanroc actually. It works effectively in stall too. The major flaw of bronzor stays its passivity especially if you pick bad rolls with psywave, Liepard is annoying too. However a lot of teams struggle to get rid of it and it helps a lot the teambuilding of bulky playstyles. A rise is deserved.

C+ -> B-
The ban of mushy gave to this green blob a right place to shine. CM signal beam is the classical set which allows to kill liepard/shiftry on the switch, Acid Armor is terrific against team without dark types, someone plays it even in stall with a CM/toxic set. Duosion is the little brother of Musharna, it is a crucial wincon painthful to deal with for teams without specific answers. Even if it is less brainless than the big brother due to a strong weakness to koff and the lack of stored power, Duosion is a threat not to neglect when you build a team.

C+ -> B-
Gabite is a good rocker to bulky offenses : fast, bulky and has an active presence in the team. What makes it particulary good is its type which allows to check Lycanroc which is quite difficult in offense, block volturn too thanks to rough skin and handles annoying stuff such as Rapidash. QT uses it in several battles for the ZU Open if you want to see its efficiency in action

C -> C+/B-
Credit to Diagnostic to this. Mareanie is very decent right now. It is an answer to Monferno, BD Poliwrath, Muk, special Combusken, Bellossom, no Z-Move water/fire/taunt Simipour/Simisear, Huntail, etc. Toxic Spikes are fine against a lot of playstyles and force Silvally to come if it doesn't want to be toxiced. Even if Mareanie isn't the bulkier mon ever, it helps a lot the teambuilding right now by the support it gives

B -> B-
Murkrow has the ability to be threaten against unprepared teams. However, it requires a support which isn't easy to give, only a team centralized around its utilisation makes it enough effective against the meta. The Z-Move set which is the best one simply lacks of power to one shot a large part of offensive mons faster even at +2. The introduction of Lycanroc doesn't help it either because it is a mon which needs the Z-Move and which is able to one shot Murkrow with its priority and handles Sucker Punch/Brave at +2. Liepard is annoying too. Even if it stays a strong and threaten mon, Murkrow requires a too high support actually and doesn't hit hard enough to be B rank.

B- -> Lower
Leavanny suffers from competition with Smeargle, Masquerain to a lesser extent and now Shuckle. The only reason it has to be played is it is less passive or slow than the others but with the lack of stealth rock. That's a small niche (and webs aren't amazing right now). A rank in C is more adapted to its function and impact in the meta.

 

[BARABOY]

Sandslash B- > B (or B+)

I think sandslash is quite the underrated mon in this meta, and should be ranked at least a little bit higher. Firstly, it has the ability to both set hazards and remove hazards on its own side using rapid spin, which nothing else in the tier can do. This makes it a great team mate for pokemon like crustle, which greatly appreciates the removeal of hazards. Secondly, it has great defensive bulk, allowing it to check pokemon like rapidash and monferno, and hitting back hard with earthquake. Its also a hard counter for lycanrok, which has a variety of sets, none of which fair too well against sandslash's defense, offense, and utility. However, it is held back back by its special defense and weakness to grass. Nevertheless, I still think it deserves more attention than it gets.

 

[Lugia Proto]

Some noms I've had for a while now:

Kadabra A+ -> A
Kadabra is a good mon, but atm it's not great. It's focus sash set is likely the best revenge killer in the game, and having very few switchins with the LO set is great, but both sets struggle with any form of longevity in the meta. Kadabra can not switch in much, and almost always has to be brought in via voltturn or when a team mate faints, and even then it really only has one switch and will be pursuit trapped, 2hko'd, etc. It's not as good as before and it should fall to reflect this.

Golem A+ -> A
Golem struggles to stand out as a rocks setter and it's offensive sets lack speed, for the most part, to be as effective as they could be. I believe due to Golem struggleing at the moment it should fall down to A with Mawile, which I believe it should be compared with Mawile due to them both being decent rocks setters while Golem has more offensive options and Mawile is more consistent throughout a match and has intimidate support.

Torterra A+ -> S
Torterra requires very minimal support to be able to break through teams. It thrives in a meta where mons can not hit it hard enough to 2 or 3HKO it often, and it's able to boost up quite often. It's a great win-con, but it's defensive sets are also great due to being one of the few checks to Lycanroc available in the tier. Torterra is a very versatile pokemon and his ability to run such different sets is an asset to tons of teams, being able to check one of the best mons in the tier as well as being able to run offensive sets that have very few checks, I believe it should rise.

Roselia B -> B+ (Possibly A-)
The amount of support Roselia brings to your team is amazing. It's great vs. Stall and balance, it has sleep power to support, and it's access to spikes/tspikes is amazing. Roselia is the BEST spiker in the tier, without a doubt in my mind. Spikes are an amazing asset to offensive teams and Roselia's ability to set them reliable throughout the match, as well as access to recovery and a good dual stab makes it stand out. I don't understand why it isn't at least B+, as it could easily become A-.

 

[Xayah]

Here is a VR update! We're finally updating the lower ranks after the most recent shift, which is massively delayed because of everything, from very lengthy discussions to piratepad crashing completely for a week, working against us. As such it's also a pretty big shift and there's no reasoning (especially since the A ranks saw very minimal change). If you have any questions, feel free to ask me or any of our council members. Anyway, here it is.

Rises

Silvally-Grass B -> A-

Bronzor B -> B+

Electivire B -> B+

Machoke B -> B+

Silvally-Dragon B -> B+

Zebstrika B -> B+

Sawsbuck B- -> B

Silvally-Fighting B- -> B

Gabite C+ -> B-

Rampardos C+ -> B-

Mareanie C -> B-

Dusclops C- -> B-

Ditto C- -> C+

Meowstic-F C- -> C+

Raticate C- -> C+

Weepinbell Usually Useless -> C-

Drops

Oricorio-E B+ -> B-

Masquerain B -> B-

Cradily B -> B-

Dusknoir B -> B-

Marowak B -> B-

Murkrow B -> B-

Noctowl B -> B-

Roselia B -> B-

Vullaby B -> B-

Wishiwashi B -> B-

Relicanth B -> C+

Camerupt B- -> C+

Drifblim B- -> C+

Electrode B- -> C+

Leavanny B- -> C+

Munchlax B- -> C+

Ninjask B- -> C+

Arbok C+ -> C

Cacturne C+ -> C

Illumise C+ -> C

Silvally-Dark C+ -> C

Stunfisk C+ -> C

Prinplup C+ -> C-

Solrock C+ -> C-

Fearow C -> C-

Glaceon C -> C-

Lycanroc-N C -> C-

Glalie C- -> Usually Useless

Lumineon C- -> Usually Useless

 

[Tuthur]

So I've question. Why did Roselia drop to B- ? Its reasonment to drop to B was already strange (see my previous post). Lucia Proto, Union Caboche and me asked for a rise to B+ or even A-. I wont repeat our arguments because I'm on phone. I didn't see any post against a Roselia rise or for a drop, and it was clear for me that everybody agreed with a Roselia's rise.

 

[Xayah]

So I've question. Why did Roselia drop to B- ? Its reasonment to drop to B was already strange (see my previous post). Lucia Proto, Union Caboche and me asked for a rise to B+ or even A-. I wont repeat our arguments because I'm on phone. I didn't see any post against a Roselia rise or for a drop, and it was clear for me that everybody agreed with a Roselia's rise.

With Spikes on the decline, Roselia has only been getting worse recently. In addition to that, both Smeargle and Crustle are better Spike setters, while Mareanie is a better TSpikes setter. Its typing means that it cannot fit on the same team as several of the best Pokemon in our meta, like Torterra, Tangela, Gourgeist-L, and Silvally-Grass (every single one of which has gotten better recently), due to stacking weaknesses to Fire and Ice, which is awful considering how common Rotom-Frost, Monferno, and Combusken are. Its added Poison typing is also largely bad for it, giving it a neutrality to Ground-types, meaning it can't beat Torterra as a Grass-type, while the resistances are worthless in a meta lacking Fairies other than Mr Mime (and Togetic but there's better mons there) while our common Fighting-types are also Fire-types. All in all, it really doesn't have anything going for it at the current time and should not be in the same rank as mons like Silvally-Fighting, Togetic, and Carbink, and definitely not rise to the rank of Zebstrika, Pawniard, Metang, and Purugly.

 

[Apagogie]

The first thing I woud like to say is I respect a lot the Council for the work they do everyday for the community. Six months ago, nobody or almost knew the ZU and this is thanks to their daily work the tier became more attractive for lots of people. We have actually a relative large playerbase and we are all glad ZU is actually the OMotM. That's the reason why I have a lot of respect for the Council.

And that's why too I would like to make a suggestion. Every time a mon rises or drops without being discussed on the thread or every time a nomination isn't taken into account, there is an explanation on the post of the vr update. Every official tier does that, it's sometimes done here too but generally only for some mons. I'm agree than it can take a long time to write but I think it is however necessary to avoid situations such as the issue with roselia right now.

Indeed, the playerbase is composed of many players who take their time too to support the tier. They take their time especially to write detailed posts to advance the community. Without players, there is no ZU. So when after writing a long post, the opposite of what they said is decided without explanation and a member has to ask to know, we just feel that the Council absolutely doesn't care about what we write on the thread. I know this is not the case, I know the majority of you is attentive about the feelings of the players, is always happy to help when it is necessary. However, that's what it looks regardless the situation. I think there is actually a lack of communication between the playerbase and the Council about the VR.

The drop of roselia is really surprising since the only feelings we had about our posts were positive, including Roselia. We don't much understand this turnabout. I add Roselia isn't the only problem, the violent drop of oricorio pom-pom in B- to be next to this fire form which requires far much support to work is also weird but I would like to focus on Roselia.

With Spikes on the decline, Roselia has only been getting worse recently. In addition to that, both Smeargle and Crustle are better Spike setters, while Mareanie is a better TSpikes setter. Its typing means that it cannot fit on the same team as several of the best Pokemon in our meta, like Torterra, Tangela, Gourgeist-L, and Silvally-Grass (every single one of which has gotten better recently), due to stacking weaknesses to Fire and Ice, which is awful considering how common Rotom-Frost, Monferno, and Combusken are. Its added Poison typing is also largely bad for it, giving it a neutrality to Ground-types, meaning it can't beat Torterra as a Grass-type, while the resistances are worthless in a meta lacking Fairies other than Mr Mime (and Togetic but there's better mons there) while our common Fighting-types are also Fire-types. All in all, it really doesn't have anything going for it at the current time and should not be in the same rank as mons like Silvally-Fighting, Togetic, and Carbink, and definitely not rise to the rank of Zebstrika, Pawniard, Metang, and Purugly.

I have a lot of problems with this reasonning. The most embarrassing thing is the half of this message should not be a reason to rise or drop a mon. The half of the message is based on the type of roselia. Everybody who wrote for a rise know that roselia is weak to fire and ice, know than it isn't resisted ground, know the poison type doesn't hit a lot of fairies. That was already like that before, that's not something new. Rotom-Frost was already S rank six months ago, Monferno and Combusken were already in ZU in A rank six months ago and almost as common as now. Roselia was A- during this time. Say Roselia should drop because it is weak to Combusken, Monferno, Frosttom isn't an argument.

Say two types grass cannot fit in a in single team due to frosttom/combusken/monferno isn't true either. What is important is to handle the different threats, if you're able to do that with two grass types, that's absolutely not an issue to get twice the same type. You could argue it's harder with two grass types but even with that the argument doesn't fit. The splashability is an advantage but don't be splashable isn't necessary a flaw. The issue when you aren't splashable is often the team needs to support you to let you shine. Eevee is one of the best example of that. However, it exists as well mons which aren't splashable but which give the support to the team. Pyukumuku is one of these mon, it's not especially splashable and it fits only in few teams. However when it is played, pyuku doesn't need a team based on its use to work, it's pyuku which supports the team. In this situation, the lack of splashability isn't a flaw because the utilization of pyuku needs no mandatory support. Roselia is in this category. The splashability is an advantage but not a flaw, don't forget usage doesn't mean viability. When a mon supports the team without needing too much support, there is no reason to complain about its splashability.

To finish about that, do you believe it is a coincidence if Torterra, Gourgeist, Silvally-Grass or Tangela which are all grass types become better now ? It's not a coincidence, Lurantis works very well too, Leafeon as well,... Grass types are nowadays far better than they were in the past.. And Roselia is a grass type. If you wanted to be logic with your own argument, you would have rised all grass types considering they became more viable or drop none considering even if they became more effective they suffered from their own competition... But certainly not rise Silvally_Grass and in the same time rop roselia. You couldn't even argue roselia is outclassed by silvally-grass because they have absolutely not the same role. And even if it was the case, Silvally is far more easily replaceable than roselia if you want to play them in a single team.

Now lets talk about the other points. "With spikes on the decline...", if you are talking about offenses centred around spikes, I'm totally agree with you. Crustle + Missy + a defiant user has never been very strong and still less recently, stuff like Silvally-Fighting are for example pretty annoying for this kind of team. But if this was your point, you should have concluded the opposite answer which was to drop crustle instead of roselia. Crustle cannot come more than twice on the board which is the reason why it is easy to get rid of it, easy to get rid of spikes and also the reason why crustle is limited to spikes offense. That's also the reason why crustle is less good than roselia in spiker, roselia has the ability to stack hazards whenever and many times in a battle.

I close the eyes on the spikes smeargle which shouldn't exist in a meta where crustle exists (or even... whrilipede ?), Smeargle isn't very good either anyway. You're talking about the poison type lower. This shouldn't be an argument for a drop considering it's the same thing since the beginning so nothing has changed but lets focus a moment on this, first about the fairy type. You're talking about the poison type but you forgot some things which are crucial in your analysis. Roselia has the ability to be played defensive or offensive. I love Mareanie for a lot of reasons but it's really passive. Mr.Mime can switch into Mareanie (except the uncommon sludge bomb versions and Mr.Mime handles it anyway), that doesn't happen with a Roselia.

The second reason why you lack something in your analysis is about togetic. That's true that it isn't a mon very played but it's pretty common in one playstyle, in stall where it is the defoger. Guess what it is very strong against stall ? Stack Hazards. If your user of spikes was a mon without the poison type such as cacturne for example, you couldn't threat stall in the same way. The grass type is also pretty nice against some stall which have generally sandslash in spinner. I'm not a big fan of this playstyle but roselia is useful there too. It's also a mon very difficult to get rid for stalls thanks to recovery and natural cure. Crustle is on the other hand pretty easy to weaken.

Talking about fighting types, you forget the main which is Poliwrath. Roselia in the same time the best friend of tankpoli (thanks to circle throw) and its best counter. Silvally-Fighting except the uncommon SD/Zen Headbutt set cannot either deal with Roselia thanks to the poison type. I add other mons than fighting types use fighting moves and are unfortunately common such as Simipour SubNP for example or Lurantis Superpower...

I don't mention the lack of ground resist because you could also say it has a bug neutrality which allows to take a hit of pinsir (and anyway, except tangela/gourgeist, none grass type take well Z-Wood hammer at +2). You finish your post with a comparaison with the other ranks. I won't comment that because it's very subjective (Carbink and Purugly should be lower in my opinion, Roselia is as viable as stuff like pawniard for me, etc).

I didn't want to hurt someone with this post, if I did I apologize. I wrote this here to try to have a discussion on this. My only problem is Roselia, that doesn't mean I'm agree with all other changes but they are minor, that's just a personal view. The issue with Roselia is different, few people explain why Roselia should rise, it dropped first without explanation, then with a reasonning having major flaws in the analysis that I hope to have shown in this thread.

 

[DurzaOffTopic]

I completely agree that we need to have some reasoning in VR changes, particularly with the more controversial ones, but I somewhat disagree on your specific points here. I'd like to add on to the Roselia points and why its due for a drop.

The drop of roselia is really surprising since the only feelings we had about our posts were positive, including Roselia. We don't much understand this turnabout. I add Roselia isn't the only problem, the violent drop of oricorio pom-pom in B- to be next to this fire form which requires far much support to work is also weird but I would like to focus on Roselia.

I'd like to start of by addressing this point of Oricorio Pom-Pom being better than Baile, the Fire-type form.

The Fire-type form of Oricorio is actually superior to Pom-Pom despite its weakness to Rocks. Baile's coverage is actually incredible, and it is extremely unique in a few regards. It is a Flying-type able to break through Steel-types as well as being able to beat Rotom-Frost. Rotom-Frost is objectively the best mon in the tier right now, and Oricorio Pom-Pom gives it a free switch all day long. Baile outspeeds non Scarf Varients, and Oricorio's incredible STAB combination has very few resists in the tier. Quantum Tesseract and I used Oricorio Baile pretty extensively and proved that it puts in an amazing amount of work.

I have a lot of problems with this reasonning. The most embarrassing thing is the half of this message should not be a reason to rise or drop a mon. The half of the message is based on the type of roselia. Everybody who wrote for a rise know that roselia is weak to fire and ice, know than it isn't resisted ground, know the poison type doesn't hit a lot of fairies. That was already like that before, that's not something new. Rotom-Frost was already S rank six months ago, Monferno and Combusken were already in ZU in A rank six months ago and almost as common as now. Roselia was A- during this time. Say Roselia should drop because it is weak to Combusken, Monferno, Frosttom isn't an argument.

You can't compare metagames from 6-months ago to the current metagame. They are completely different, and that is not a valid argument. A metagame is a complex thing - relationships are not defined by 1v1 hypothetical scenarios of Pokemon being "available"- rather, how the metagame has shifted around it. Roselia has not responded well to the recent metagame developments, which I will talk about throughout this post.

Say two types grass cannot fit in a in single team due to frosttom/combusken/monferno isn't true either. What is important is to handle the different threats, if you're able to do that with two grass types, that's absolutely not an issue to get twice the same type. You could argue it's harder with two grass types but even with that the argument doesn't fit. The splashability is an advantage but don't be splashable isn't necessary a flaw. The issue when you aren't splashable is often the team needs to support you to let you shine. Eevee is one of the best example of that. However, it exists as well mons which aren't splashable but which give the support to the team. Pyukumuku is one of these mon, it's not especially splashable and it fits only in few teams. However when it is played, pyuku doesn't need a team based on its use to work, it's pyuku which supports the team. In this situation, the lack of splashability isn't a flaw because the utilization of pyuku needs no mandatory support. Roselia is in this category. The splashability is an advantage but not a flaw, don't forget usage doesn't mean viability. When a mon supports the team without needing too much support, there is no reason to complain about its splashability.

I don't think anybody is actually arguing that you can't have more than one typing on a team. It's silly to think anybody serious plays by those "rules", every team is different and I don't think thats why Roselia dropped. You keep talking about "splashability", but thats an extremely broad term that not only is extremely subjective but also I don't think you really understand the connotations of the word itself. "Splashability" inherently implies that a Pokemon needs less team support than another Pokemon would, which is actually a big factor in viability (you said yourself that Oricorio Baile needed more "support" than pom-pom. Pyukumuku is also by far the most splashable pokemon on Stall teams, but that's not the heart of the problem. The main issue here is that, well, Roselia is just outclassed. People refer to other Pokemon of the same type together not because of their type, but because their typing often allows them to perform very similar roles.

To finish about that, do you believe it is a coincidence if Torterra, Gourgeist, Silvally-Grass or Tangela which are all grass types become better now ? It's not a coincidence, Lurantis works very well too, Leafeon as well,... Grass types are nowadays far better than they were in the past.. And Roselia is a grass type. If you wanted to be logic with your own argument, you would have rised all grass types considering they became more viable or drop none considering even if they became more effective they suffered from their own competition... But certainly not rise Silvally_Grass and in the same time rop roselia. You couldn't even argue roselia is outclassed by silvally-grass because they have absolutely not the same role. And even if it was the case, Silvally is far more easily replaceable than roselia if you want to play them in a single team.

Grass-types in general are on a rise for certain reasons. It's not solely for their typing, its for their performance in the given role. Typings typically play a big part in a Pokemon's role, and thats why Grass-types are being compared as they have several "jobs" they are expected to take on, if needed. Torterra is far more versatile than Roselia, which is extremely one dimensional. Torterra is also a phenomenal Lycanroc check, and Lycanroc is one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier as of late. Silvally-Grass has a huge support movepool, great coverage, access to pivoting, the surprise effect of Silvally's typing unknown at team preview, as well as great all around stats, and Tangela has more role compression than any Pokemon in the tier along with an amazing ability in Regenerator. Tangelas have also started shifting to my offensive pivot set of 252+SpA which is far better than whatever bulky spreads they were running before, which is another recent metagame development. Also, you literally just compared Silvally-Grass and Roselia before saying you cannot logically compare them... which isn't even true.. You can compare things that need to be performing the "standard" capabilities of a grass-type, and unless this is some special scenario that I'm not aware of, they should both be doing specific things.

Also, Lurantis is just bad now, its completely outclassed by Servine just because of the speed. There's a reason why it dropped to ZU after being NU, its just not that good anymore and servine's speed is far more useful.

Now, another big reason Roselia dropped in regard to typing is that its honestly just a liability. It's a Grass-type that doesn't resist Ground, a Fighting-resist that loses to the most common Fighting-types in the tier, Monferno and Combusken, and cannot safely switch into Poliwrath as it is easily 2HKO'd by a Life Orb Ice Beam, a +6 Ice Punch, and drops flat to an unboosted LO Ice Punch with some prior chip damage. A Poison-type is expected to beat Fairy-types, and Roselia loses 1v1 to every single Fairy-type in the tier. It's supposed to beat Water-types being a grass-type but even it struggles with things like Ice Beam Poliwrath or Flamethrower Watervally. While all Grass-types struggle from that issue to some extent, Roselia has a plethora of problems its typing causes, and it brings nothing else to the metagame like all the other Grass-types do. It's typing is a liability, plain and simple, and its held back by its massive 4MSS as it always wants to run more moves than it can fit in a moveset.

Now lets talk about the other points. "With spikes on the decline...", if you are talking about offenses centred around spikes, I'm totally agree with you. Crustle + Missy + a defiant user has never been very strong and still less recently, stuff like Silvally-Fighting are for example pretty annoying for this kind of team. But if this was your point, you should have concluded the opposite answer which was to drop crustle instead of roselia. Crustle cannot come more than twice on the board which is the reason why it is easy to get rid of it, easy to get rid of spikes and also the reason why crustle is limited to spikes offense. That's also the reason why crustle is less good than roselia in spiker, roselia has the ability to stack hazards whenever and many times in a battle.

This is the primary reason why Roselia deserved the drop it recieved. Spikes are bad in ZU right now. Roselia's main niche was being the best spike setter in the tier for an already declining playstyle, and now with Crustle in the tier, its outclassed for a few reasons. First off, Reliability. Roselia has trouble clicking spikes versus things as it's so heavily offensively pressured throughout the match. Crustle can guarantee you at least a few layers of hazards and then it depends on your team to offensively pressure defog and spin, which is something Roselia fails to achieve on the squads it is put on.

The second reason it's outclassed is one simple thing: Stealth Rock. Putting Rocks on Crustle can free up another moveslot somewhere else or allow you to run a different Pokemon or set that would aid your team more. Crustle has the offensive threat of Shell Smash as well, making Pokemon want to pressure it harder as oppose to Roselia which can often become setup bait.

I close the eyes on the spikes smeargle which shouldn't exist in a meta where crustle exists (or even... whrilipede ?), Smeargle isn't very good either anyway. You're talking about the poison type lower. This shouldn't be an argument for a drop considering it's the same thing since the beginning so nothing has changed but lets focus a moment on this, first about the fairy type. You're talking about the poison type but you forgot some things which are crucial in your analysis. Roselia has the ability to be played defensive or offensive. I love Mareanie for a lot of reasons but it's really passive. Mr.Mime can switch into Mareanie (except the uncommon sludge bomb versions and Mr.Mime handles it anyway), that doesn't happen with a Roselia.

What does Smeargle have to do with anything.... or Mareanie. What Roselia's run Sludge Bomb? I think its pretty uncommon there as well as it wants to run Giga Drain / Synthesis / Spikes / Aromatherapy / Tspikes / Sleep Powder all before it wants Sludge Bomb. This just further emphasizes how Roselia's competition for moveslots hurts it even more, as it can't do everything it wants and needs to do to perform to any degree of success.

The second reason why you lack something in your analysis is about togetic. That's true that it isn't a mon very played but it's pretty common in one playstyle, in stall where it is the defoger. Guess what it is very strong against stall ? Stack Hazards. If your user of spikes was a mon without the poison type such as cacturne for example, you couldn't threat stall in the same way. The grass type is also pretty nice against some stall which have generally sandslash in spinner. I'm not a big fan of this playstyle but roselia is useful there too. It's also a mon very difficult to get rid for stalls thanks to recovery and natural cure. Crustle is on the other hand pretty easy to weaken.

Hazard Stack isn't a good answer to good stall by any means, I don't know where you're getting this misconception. All good stall teams have reliable ways to remove hazards and enough to punish free turns to set a few layers. Crustle is better at stacking hazards anyway, and Roselia has a worse matchup defensively versus sandslash than Crustle, though it does have a better offensive matchup. Overall, Roselia isn't a terrible Pokemon, but its just not up to the standards of its former position.

Talking about fighting types, you forget the main which is Poliwrath. Roselia in the same time the best friend of tankpoli (thanks to circle throw) and its best counter. Silvally-Fighting except the uncommon SD/Zen Headbutt set cannot either deal with Roselia thanks to the poison type. I add other mons than fighting types use fighting moves and are unfortunately common such as Simipour SubNP for example or Lurantis Superpower...

Poliwrath is by no means the most common or "main" Fighting-type. Both Combusken and Monferno, especially the latter, see more use as they are on more offensive playstyles that are objectively more common in ZU and Monferno can function in many roles as well. Sure... it counters "tankpoli", but I'd go to say offensive variants are still more common than that, and it can't even safely switch in of the fear of Ice Beam. Simipour often runs 3Atks Nasty Plot with Ice Beam, so thats not a safe switch either. Lurantis is actually really bad in the current metagame, and literally every other Grass-type with the exception of Torterra beat that.

I don't mention the lack of ground resist because you could also say it has a bug neutrality which allows to take a hit of pinsir (and anyway, except tangela/gourgeist, none grass type take well Z-Wood hammer at +2). You finish your post with a comparaison with the other ranks. I won't comment that because it's very subjective (Carbink and Purugly should be lower in my opinion, Roselia is as viable as stuff like pawniard for me, etc).

Who cares about a Bug neutrality? Pinsir still 2HKOs even the bulkiest of Roselias, lol. Thats actually terrible reasoning. As for the other stuff, you yourself said it was subjective and it really doesn't have much to do with Roselia at all.

I didn't want to hurt someone with this post, if I did I apologize. I wrote this here to try to have a discussion on this. My only problem is Roselia, that doesn't mean I'm agree with all other changes but they are minor, that's just a personal view. The issue with Roselia is different, few people explain why Roselia should rise, it dropped first without explanation, then with a reasonning having major flaws in the analysis that I hope to have shown in this thread.

Honestly, I don't really like the way you went about your post, it was unnecessarily long and a bit condescending towards the council and focused on things that weren't really true. At least, I hope I explained a bit more into why Roselia was deserving of a drop.

 

[5gen]

Roselia

Xayah and Durza already went over Roselia so I'll keep my words about it to a minimum when I talk about why I voted to drop it to B-. Simply put, the opportunity cost to running Roselia over most other Grass-types in this metagame is fairly significant. As others have said, being a Grass-type in this meta with somewhat frail physical bulk and an inability to effectively switch into Torterra, Lycanroc, and even Golem leaves Roselia at a large disadvantage compared to Torterra, Tangela, and Silvally-Grass. If the metagame centered around special attackers that Roselia could take on, then it would be in a much better position. However, in the current meta, most of the top special attackers (Frostom, Mr. Mime, Combusken, etc) dunk on Roselia. Hence, when I voted on Roselia in the VR slate I already knew that defensively Roselia was not staying in the B ranks. Conversely, I believe offensive Spikes Roselia is not a B or B+ set because it faces much of the same issues as the defensive set, being easy to pick off by the top meta threats. It is able to prevent Silvally formes from switching in freely and can act as a decent special attacker, yet I didn't see it as effective enough to stay in B rank because it has key flaws in low Speed, bulk, and has somewhat low switch-in opportunities (i.e can't come in on most of S through A). Personally, I even believe that Quilladin is the superior Grass-type Spiker which hasn't been mentioned (for reasons I can explain, just don't want to steer offtopic). For all these reasons, I voted on Roselia going B to B-.

These past few posts raise two important topics for council and the ZU community: responding to VR nominations and explaining VR changes/noms. As Union Caboche expressed, the council should be transparent on why Pokemon changed a rank and let the playerbase know our reasonings. Council already puts in discussion from within, as it should, but with large VR shake ups such as this, it is very time and effort consuming to explain each change. We've shown it in the May 1st VR changes with S through B+ ranks that we can explain VR changes, so it's a matter of putting in the effort on more extensive VR changes such as this one. Moreover, responding to VR nominations is something that can easily be done. It's regrettable that we haven't responded to enough publicly, so as council we will respond to more VR posts in this thread.

If anyone has any questions or comments, I take it upon myself and the rest of council to answer. I really appreciate the playerbase we have and I hope we can keep helping make ZU a better and bigger tier.

 

[BARABOY]

Rank change nominations

B- > B+
Starting off by mentioning sandslash again. See my post on page 7 for details, but I'll summarize it by saying it is a great rock setter, great hazard remover, and has amazing physical bulk.

A- > A
For starters, lickilicky has great 110/95/95 bulk, which is great for its role as a cleric/wish passer. It gets great support moves in wish and heal bell, and is a good fit on any bulky or balance teams. It's also "wonderful" on stall teams, giving support to pokemon like pyukumuku, who is destroyed by moves like toxic. Additionally, it can stall by using toxic, then wish + protect, with the occasional seismic toss thrown in to help chip away at the opponents health.

B > B-
While huntail has access to shell smash, a very powerful boating move, it doesn't have the movepool to successfully pull sweeping off. It's shallow movepool only has useful coverage in ice fang, leaving it completely vulnerable to electric types. Additionally, it has mediocre 55/105/75 defense, leaving it pretty vulnerable if it wants to boost. Additionally, this tier has a plethora of bulky grass and electric types, like rotom frost, gourgheist, tangela, etc, its countered fairly easily. Lastly, it's easily walled by poliwrath, one of the most prevelant pokemon in this tier. Poli can easily switch in to a waterfall from huntail, then easily circle throw him away. With huntail and its barren movepool, it doesn't have any way to counter a bulky water type, and is forced to switch or do pitiful damage against poliwrath.

Please reply with any feedback you have after reading, and thanks for taking the time to do so :)

 

[Ampha]

B- > B+
Starting off by mentioning sandslash again. See my post on page 7 for details, but I'll summarize it by saying it is a great rock setter, great hazard remover, and has amazing physical bulk.

Have to agree with this nom,Sandy is a nice pick as a Spinner atm which can spin off quite easily because it runs knock off which can 2OHKO Missy(which is currently the most common spinblock) and is a nice check for lycan as well
While this next one be a bit controversial,gonna do it anyways
Vigoroth A+ -> A
Well to start out,the meta has adapted to It tbh, people are just running more and more normal checks,being them ghosts as Missy,Dusclops,fight types such as Monferno,Combusken,Machoke,Poli,rock types,such as Golem,Probo or Lycan(Lycan can switch in and Sd and Z on Vigoroth's face) or even different picks for Vigoroth(Such as Z-toxic Pyukumuku or Taunt Pyukumuku),and while it is indeed a great mon,those factors don't help It that much

 

[Lugia Proto]

Have to agree with this nom,Sandy is a nice pick as a Spinner atm which can spin off quite easily because it runs knock off which can 2OHKO Missy(which is currently the most common spinblock) and is a nice check for lycan as well
While this next one be a bit controversial,gonna do it anyways
Vigoroth A+ -> A
Well to start out,the meta has adapted to It tbh, people are just running more and more normal checks,being them ghosts as Missy,Dusclops,fight types such as Monferno,Combusken,Machoke,Poli,rock types,such as Golem,Probo or Lycan(Lycan can switch in and Sd and Z on Vigoroth's face) or even different picks for Vigoroth(Such as Z-toxic Pyukumuku or Taunt Pyukumuku),and while it is indeed a great mon,those factors don't help It that much

I don't think you know what Vigoroth does. Missy and dusclops are not checks to vigoroth, they're checks to it's sub/taunt BU set, and they don't even check taunt BU sets well. They don't, however, check it's other set, taunt + toxic. Most fighting's aren't even that effective vs. it due to it's eviolite and gaining defense boosts. Vigoroth is a mon who's sets have completely different checks, and is easily one of the most dominant mons in ZU ATM.

 

[5gen]

I nominated Huntail to drop from B to B- in the most recent VR slate but the majority of council believed it should stay in B. I still disagree with Huntail in B based upon its effectiveness in the current meta. Froasty described Huntail's sets perfectly, so I will comment about what is keeping it in B rank. Firstly, the physically based mixed set with SS/Waterfall/Ice Beam/Sucker Punch or Z-Return/Z-Double-Edge can be a decent sweeper depending on the matchup. Teams that use Tangela as their water resist fear any kind of specially offensive Water-type, and +2 Huntail Ice Beam is no exception. Furthermore, teams that use Silvally-Water/Grass/Dragon as their water resist are more vulnerable to a late-game sweep since they are easy to chip down. Secondly, Huntail can set up against Pokemon like Monferno, Pinsir, Pawniard, and force switches against Golem and slower Torterras. Lastly, +2 Sucker is pretty good at picking off more frail, offensive Pokemon like Choice Scarf Chatot and Simipour.

However, Huntail has a tough time effectively sweeping or setting in the current meta. From my testing and experience, Huntail has too many naturally occurring obstacles in the current meta to be consistent and effective. Poliwrath being so popular forces Huntail to run Z-Return/Z-DE, as it cannot touch it otherwise. However, if Huntail lacks Sucker Punch, then most Choice Scarf users like Frostom, Chatot, and Mr. Mime simply revenge kill it after a smash. Moreover, running a Z-move means Huntail has -1 defenses and is more susceptible to be revenge killed. Another key flaw Huntail has is its minimal switch-in opportunities. Typically, Huntail relies on being healthy in order to set up and its mediocre special bulk means it cannot switch into most special attacks. As such, Huntail provides little defensive utility to teams. Lastly, I find Huntail to be dead weight a lot of the time if it doesn't have a smash up due to its average power and low Speed. It cannot break through bulky mons without any boosts and its low Speed leaves it vulnerable against a good portion of the meta. For these reasons, I'd agree with Huntail dropping to B-.

Sandslash B- > B (or B+)
I think sandslash is quite the underrated mon in this meta, and should be ranked at least a little bit higher. Firstly, it has the ability to both set hazards and remove hazards on its own side using rapid spin, which nothing else in the tier can do. This makes it a great team mate for pokemon like crustle, which greatly appreciates the removeal of hazards. Secondly, it has great defensive bulk, allowing it to check pokemon like rapidash and monferno, and hitting back hard with earthquake. Its also a hard counter for lycanrok, which has a variety of sets, none of which fair too well against sandslash's defense, offense, and utility. However, it is held back back by its special defense and weakness to grass. Nevertheless, I still think it deserves more attention than it gets.

Regarding Sandslash, I think its ability to both set SR and remove hazards with Rapid Spin is somewhat overrated. Something you failed to mention is Sandslash's role compression also includes being an okay Electric check/Volt Switch blocker. Regardless, I don't believe Sandslash should rise to B. If you run a physically bulky spread to check Rapidash, Monferno, and Lycanroc, then Sandslash is potentially outsped by Torterra, the best rocker in the tier. Moreover, the best Defoggers in the tier come in on Sandslash handily (Silvally-Water/Grass) and threated it out. Also, a pure Ground typing is not favorable in this meta, leaving Sandslash susceptible to Rotom-Frost, Poliwrath, Torterra, etc. As a result, Sandlash is usually tough to fit on teams despite its good role compression. There's also more flaws to it like low special bulk and Speed, so overall I think B- is where Sandslah belongs.

Some noms I've had for a while now:

View attachment 116722 Kadabra A+ -> A
Kadabra is a good mon, but atm it's not great. It's focus sash set is likely the best revenge killer in the game, and having very few switchins with the LO set is great, but both sets struggle with any form of longevity in the meta. Kadabra can not switch in much, and almost always has to be brought in via voltturn or when a team mate faints, and even then it really only has one switch and will be pursuit trapped, 2hko'd, etc. It's not as good as before and it should fall to reflect this.

View attachment 116723 Golem A+ -> A
Golem struggles to stand out as a rocks setter and it's offensive sets lack speed, for the most part, to be as effective as they could be. I believe due to Golem struggleing at the moment it should fall down to A with Mawile, which I believe it should be compared with Mawile due to them both being decent rocks setters while Golem has more offensive options and Mawile is more consistent throughout a match and has intimidate support.

I agree with dropping Kadabra based on the reasoning given and I also agree that Golem is noticeably less effective in this meta because its niche as a rocker that can check Normals is less valuable now that Stoutland and Ursa are long gone. These two noms are fairly controversial so I think more peeps should give their input.