DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[Phuquoph]

References

Previous thread
Current BL tier
Current UU tier

Discussion Rules
Be sure to follow these simple guidelines at all times:

• All discussion will take place in this thread until further notice. Do not create new threads for the purpose of tier discussion.
• You MUST provide solid reasoning backed by competitive battling experience for your opinion on a given Pokémon. Making a statement like "mamoswine should be UU" alone without backing it up is NOT ALLOWED. If you opt not to justify your assertions, your post(s) WILL be deleted and swiftly infracted without warning.
• You must adhere to the stipulation that we are only discussing BL->UU and vice-versa for now; this is not the time nor place to complain that Blissey (or any other Pokémon) is uber, that Manaphy is not uber, or that because you think you maybe saw eight Scizors yesterday Scizor should now be OU.

 

[ODDish]

Just thought it might be useful to recap the most recent proposals ...

Move down to UU

-Marowak-
Many are of opinion Marowak despite its Thick Club, would actually not upset the UU metagame. For the most part people would fear a Pinsir or Rain sweep far more than a Marowak sweep.

-Steelix-
Steelix has received a very strong, if not the strongest recommendation all round for joining UU. There is a heavy physical sweeper bias in UU at the moment along with a lack of phazers. Steelix's great defenses and typing is needed to tame alot of threats without being too strong.

-Leafeon-
Theres been quite a strong movement for Leafeon's inclusion into UU mainly due to its bad coverage, phazing, threat to water and its Baton Passing would be welcome to the tier.

-Shedinja-
Again its believed just about any UU team can deal with this guy yet he brings great benefits. The biggest of which is to deal with rain teams and Clefable.

-Drapion-
Drapion's move down to UU has been discussed for possibly the longest time of everything here. Many feel underwhelmed by its performance and low attack base power despite Swords Dance. It is also believed it may fill a important defensive vacuum much like Poliwrath does and bring a 3rd possible new phazer and a solid counter to Absol.

-Jynx-
Priority attacks rape this thing and Glaceon and Ninetales stable yet non-overwhelming prescence within UU have shown there may be room for Jynx afterall.


Ban to BL

-Scyther-
STAB Technician'd Aerial Ace off 110 attack and 105 speed is just far too much for most of UU to handle. The wide coverage it offers also stops many things using resistances to slow it down either. It doesn't help that it keeps U-Turning/Baton Passing out of its one or two counters.

-Pinsir-
Practically unified opinion now that it is out of here. It just about cripples everything in UU and many don't like the feeling of 'Heracross-lite' it gives off.

 

[Sunday]

Of those proposals Pinsir, Steelix and Drapion have had their tiers changed to match their proposal on the main site BTW.

 

[EconBiscuit]

Yeah it's on the contributions thread :P

We're still awaiting comfirmation on the others

 

[Forsety]

Also adding to to this thread our old discussion record at last count with the aforementioned changes accounted for.


EDIT:
@Lou
Yeah thanks I did miss Marowak.

EDIT 2:
@ODDish
Cacturne removed.

In Discussion:
N/A

Banished to BL:
-Feraligatr
-Typhlosion
-Crobat
-Azumarill
-Ursaring
-Slowking
-Mamoswine
-Ambipom
-Pinsir
-Scyther (In Progress)

Borderline UU's: (Ones under careful observation)
-Walrein, Glaceon, Lapras, Ninetales, Poliwrath, Clefable

BL's moved down to UU:
-Claydol
-Cloyster
-Steelix
-Drapion
-Leafeon
-Jynx
-Shedinja (In Progress)
-Marowak (In Progress)


BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
(now presented in terms of levels of opposition)
-Regigigas (Average)
-Torterra (High)
-Entei (Very High)

BL's considered for testing/movedown but were blocked.
-Empoleon, Houndoom, Milktank, Flygon

Widely Acceptable NFE's:
-Magmar, Electabuzz, Trapinch, Poliwhirl, Clamperl, Vigoroth, Pikachu

Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL):
Snover, Hippopatas

 

[Lou Cypher]

Foresty, I miss Marowak on your list, amiryte?

 

[ODDish]

Would anyone strongly object if we remove Cacturne off the Borderline UU's: (Ones under careful observation)?

 

[Phuquoph]

Leafeon and Jynx didn't have much opposition in the last thread (I finally got around to catching up), so they have been moved down too.

That leaves:
- Marowak
- Shedinja
- Scyther

 

[Sunday]

New thread seems like a good enough excuse for me to become active in these discussions :)

Personally I'd like to see Scyther moved up. Fraknly, it's got heaps going for it. 110 Atk and 105 Spe is heaps. It can get +2 Boosts on either of those and Batton Pass them away. Of course that's wasting Scythers huge offence in a way. Technician makes Aerial Ace, Pursuit, U-turn and Quick Attack all very deadly. Swarm on the other hand allows it to Sub / SR / Endure down to low HP and have a Boosted Bug attack and a full power Reversal. The only thing really holding it back is a SR weak which I've seen turned into an advantage via Reversal.

Shedinja on the other hands quite interesting. IMO a few too many walls in UU either have Toxic / Wow or a SE move for it to dominate too much. That being said when saved for late game it'd be quite easy for flat out wall the opponents team.

 

[X-Act]

I would like to suggest Ludicolo to go down to UU, as I don't see it to be totally overwhelming there. Then again, I don't play UU, so if I'm completely wrong, I'd like to have an explanation of how would Ludicolo be too good for UU.

 

[rkatzam]

With the new addition of phazers, I think Scyther is even less dangerous. Other than that, many UU pokemon have priority moves to abuse against it.

As for Shedinja, status is a huge deal of the UU metagame, so it shouldn't be too hard to take it down, focus sash will also mean nothing in that case.

I personally don't feel Marowak should even be near UU, but I haven't tested it myself, so no argument here.

 

[phalanx]

ludicolo can hold itself in OU and UBERS, its too strong

and i think we are being hasty with moving a few pokemon down, lefeaon can come in and take any physical hit (even super effective) swords dance and cause mass damage with its STABed leaf blade, even things with grass resistance take a good ammount of damage from SD leafblade

 

[Lou Cypher]

With the addition of Shedinja, Steelix and Drapoin, I can't see Leafeon doing much. It can't touch Shedinja, Steelix laughs at its efforts and Drapion can easily phaze it. The fact that it can BP makes it...dangerous, but nothing unbeatable.
As for Marowak, its main problem is its general frailness, low speed and no means of HP recovery, meaning that he can easily be beaten. Stuff like Quagsire can come in on a lot and scare him off, and then there's stuff faster as him that can come in on things they resist/immune to (Mantine, Meganium etc) and scare him off. Marowak really isn't all that scary unless he gets BP'd speed. And with the addition of Steelix and Drapion, BP'ing stuff will be a lot harder.
A case I'm wondering about is Houndoom. I'd like to compare it to Ninetales here.
H vs. N
75 - 73 HP
90 - 76 ATK
50 - 75 DEF
110 - 81 SPATK
80 - 100 SPDEF
95 - 100 SPEED
500 - 505 BST

Ninetales wins on both defences, although it slightly loses out on HP. Ninetales also has 5 more speed. Houndoom fires back with more ATK and a considerably higher SPATK.
Ninetales also has access to Hypnosis and Energy Ball, while Houndoom has a few more physical attack options such as Reversal, Crunch and...yeah, thats about it.
The question is; does Houndoom's higher initial SPATK and Dark typing make it better as Ninetales? I doubt it, because Ninetales can put its counters to sleep, buying it more Plot time. Its defenses are also better, argumenting its sweeping options. Houndoom will ultimately be walled by certain waters, while Ninetales can always seek out a counterHP to go with its Energy Ball.

So why won't we take Houndoom for an UU spin?

 

[X-Act]

ludicolo can hold itself in OU and UBERS, its too strong

What kind of argument is this? :( Shiftry can hold itself in ubers too. The performance of a Pokemon in a different tier does not in any way tell you how that Pokemon would perform in another tier.

I don't see how Ludicolo would be overcentralising in UU at all. It has decidedly average stats, apart from its SpD (which is exactly on a par with Meganium, so it's not THAT good). Setting up Rain Dance (which seems to be Ludicolo's main way of attack) makes it go for Surf and Ice Beam or Surf and Grass Knot. Surf and Ice Beam is walled by any old Water Pokemon, while Surf and Grass Knot is walled by any old Grass Pokemon. We're not talking uncounterable at all. It can't boost its Special Attack stat (which is 90, nothing writing home about). I'm not seeing Ludicolo as a threat in UU at all, so I'd like a proper explanation as to why it's BL... if there's any.

 

[Drab Emordnilap]

What kind of argument is this? :( Shiftry can hold itself in ubers too. The performance of a Pokemon in a different tier does not in any way tell you how that Pokemon would perform in another tier.

What about Tentacruel?

 

[ODDish]

Setting up Rain Dance (which seems to be Ludicolo's main way of attack) makes it go for Surf and Ice Beam or Surf and Grass Knot. Surf and Ice Beam is walled by any old Water Pokemon, while Surf and Grass Knot is walled by any old Grass Pokemon. We're not talking uncounterable at all.

Of course it doesn't have to set up rain dance itself in which case It can run Surf, Ice Beam, Grass Atk (not sure whether Energy Ball would be prefeable over Grass Knot because of Lanturn), however its certainly no more threatening than other RD Sweepers perhaps testing should be run ...

The question is; does Houndoom's higher initial SPATK and Dark typing make it better as Ninetales? I doubt it, because Ninetales can put its counters to sleep, buying it more Plot time. Its defenses are also better, argumenting its sweeping options. Houndoom will ultimately be walled by certain waters, while Ninetales can always seek out a counterHP to go with its Energy Ball.

Houndoom's dark typing and low defences also make it fairly susceptible to Mach Punch ... perhaps like Ludicolo some testing could be run?

 

[Chou Toshio]

What about Tentacruel?

That's different, because in Tentacruel's case it's popularity pulled it up to OU. In other words it was useage, not whether or not it could perform in the higher tier. Ludicolo is far from being OU in terms of popularity. X-Act's question stands.

Anyway with Steelix and Drapion moved down, maybe Sychter should have a bit more time of testing . . . U-Turn and B-Pass leave it as annoying as ever, but then Steelix will just throw up rocks while it does . . .

 

[rkatzam]

Marowak: don't forget Trick Room support teams, they already have Clamperl to be dishing out a lot of damage in the special category. With 568 ATK and the freedom to choose an attack nothing can really switch in safely.
252 ATK Adamant Thick Club Marowak EQ vs 252 DEF/HP Impish Quagsire does 53% - 62%. Marowak isn't that 'frail' either, with 110 DEF it can survive a Watefall from Quagsire. Also, if you invest in HP rather than Speed, Marowak won't get KO'd by Energy Ball from Meganium or Surf from Mantine: 144 SpA Bold Meganium (smogon standard) Energy Ball vs 252 HP Marowak does 65% - 77%. Max damage vs no HP Marowak is also not even a 1HKO, doing 96%. Now, Marowak's Fire Punch vs 216 HP / 148 DEF Bold Meganium does 58% - 68%.. so if Meganium switched on Swords Dance, Marowak will have the upper hand.
As for Mantine, Rock Slide is a guaranteed KO vs the standard 252 HP/SpD Mantine, doing 104% - 123%. Even if Mantine packs DEF EVs, Stealth Rock will further hinder its chance to survive. Without any SpA EVs, Surf will do 64% - 75% to max HP Marowak.

Ludicolo: overpowered for UU IMO. It can set Rain Dance and Leech Seed any special wall coming to block it, Ice Beam its counterparts, outspeeding nearly anything.

Houndoom: I agree with Lou that it should be tested in UU. Don't forget some of the common priority moves in UU hit him quite hard.

 

[gengod]

Setting up Rain Dance (which seems to be Ludicolo's main way of attack) makes it go for Surf and Ice Beam or Surf and Grass Knot. Surf and Ice Beam is walled by any old Water Pokemon, while Surf and Grass Knot is walled by any old Grass Pokemon. We're not talking uncounterable at all. It can't boost its Special Attack stat (which is 90, nothing writing home about). I'm not seeing Ludicolo as a threat in UU at all, so I'd like a proper explanation as to why it's BL... if there's any.

Well what about the common Rain Dance, Hydro Pump, Grass Knot, Ice Beam with Life Orb set. No one says it can't run more that 2 attacking moves. I don't mind testing it but i am sceptical about it, since it is pretty bulky and doesnt have the most common weaknesses.

Ninetales wins on both defences, although it slightly loses out on HP. Ninetales also has 5 more speed. Houndoom fires back with more ATK and a considerably higher SPATK.
Ninetales also has access to Hypnosis and Energy Ball, while Houndoom has a few more physical attack options such as Reversal, Crunch and...yeah, thats about it.

The question is; does Houndoom's higher initial SPATK and Dark typing make it better as Ninetales?

Simple answer is yes. There is nothing in UU that can stop Houndoom, it hits all of the UU special walls for STAB super effective damage albeit Altaria who is hit for 60%-70% from a LO Nasty Plotted Dark Pulse and thats with Max HP and Max Sdef.

It has STAB Fire Blast to compliment its Dark STAB for hitting the pokemon that would resist it, I dont even see how Water types will stop it either since it after a Nplot a HP Grass set will OHKO almost all standard UU Water types.

Houndoom's dark typing and low defences also make it fairly susceptible to Mach Punch ... perhaps like Ludicolo some testing could be run?

Seriously...how much things in UU commonly carry Mach Punch or even a Priorety move for that matter. The only things i can think of would be the Hitmons and the occasional Quick Attack Scyther who is already under debate. Sucker Punch hardly matters since Doom resists it and whose to say it just can't switch out.

There is hardly a case to put Houndoom in UU.

 

[Jaxi]

Agreeing with Maniaclyrasist about Ludicolo.
I would just like to add that Rain dance teams are already very effective in UU and Ludicolo would make them even better.

 

[ODDish]

Seriously...how much things in UU commonly carry Mach Punch or even a Priorety move for that matter.

Mach punch is pretty much standard on all the Hitmon's all of whom see frequent use ...

Also Kabutops and Sharpedo both have access to STAB Aqua Jet.

The commonly used Fake Out will also do a fair bit of damage.

Besides there are a number of fast sleepers/encorers who can switch in on predicted stat ups

and whose to say it just can't switch out.

Life Orb recoil and Stealth Rock damage soon adds up ... base 95 speed whilst good is by no means unbeatable even in UU.

I'm not making any claims one way or another ... however this sort of testing is going to happen under the new scheme at some point anyway so whats the harm in testing it now.

 

[Forsety]

I'm against Houndoom, we're dealing with a whole different level of damage here compared to Ninetales. Even when Ninetales has Nasty Plotted its still working off a 80 base attack. This is similar to our other NP users in UU, Toxicroak at 86 and Persian at 65.

Technician'd Adamant 252 Mach Punch from Hitmontop will not OHKO Houndoom either. At least in the case of Jynx its getting absolutely mauled by Sucker Punch's and its only got CM to work with.

Realistically speaking Typhlosion has more reason to rejoin UU than Houndoom does joining due to it being the only thing that can help the Rain > Sun scenario in UU since its a regular user.

Then again, I don't play UU, so if I'm completely wrong, I'd like to have an explanation of how would Ludicolo be too good for UU.

Ludicolo in general has a lack of weaknesses and benefits from the rain heavy environment, notice how near every major Swift Swimmer in UU has a 4x weakness? Toxicroak is the only thing in the whole of UU which can realistically counter a Ludicolo. Water immunity, ice neutrality and resistance to grass and a STAB super effective attack. Also I haven't fought one in a while but I recall the thing is pretty freakin bulky even without its Leech Seed. Meaning you pretty much have to OHKO it.

Anyway with Steelix and Drapion moved down, maybe Sychter should have a bit more time of testing . . . U-Turn and B-Pass leave it as annoying as ever, but then Steelix will just throw up rocks while it does . . .

You have a point about Steelix, however I should point out Aerial Ace still smacks the hell out of Drapion who does little in return. It essentially comes down to Torkoal and Steelix the only things able to Stealth Rock and frighten Scyther.

 

[gengod]

Mach punch is pretty much standard on all the Hitmon's all of whom see frequent use ...

Also Kabutops and Sharpedo both have access to STAB Aqua Jet.

The commonly used Fake Out will also do a fair bit of damage.

Besides there are a number of fast sleepers/encorers who can switch in on predicted stat ups

This isn't much of an argumet really since i did mention the Hitmons in my post. Hitmonchan really isn't that common and Hitmonlee normaly won't carry Mach Punch except on some CB sets and even then most i've seen dont carry even that.

Kabutops is in the same vein as Hitmonlee as most are SD variants that normally accompany Rain Dance teams and simply don't carry Aqua Jet. Sharpedo i simply forgot about, but from what ive seen he isnt that common either. Once again not many things use Fake Out, only Hitmontop who already has Mach Punch and the odd Kangaskhan or Persian, who wouldnt even need it since it is faster anyway, Purugly is hardly common so i don't even think that needs mentioning.

As for faster sleepers we have Ninetails (who is actually weaker than Houndoom who is being considered for BL), Rapidash and Jumpluff
Jumpluff being the only thing iirc that falls under a faster encore user, and we all know these are not reliable ways to counter a pokemon.

Life Orb recoil and Stealth Rock damage soon adds up ... base 95 speed whilst good is by no means unbeatable even in UU.

Tell that to Ninetails who only has 5 more base speed and was complained about continuously.

I'm not making any claims one way or another ... however this sort of testing is going to happen under the new scheme at some point anyway so whats the harm in testing it now.

Well it will make more sense to test it during the new scheme which would mean there are way more pokemon that could actually cause problems for Houndoom, but as it stands right now i honestly don't think Houndoom has any right being in UU at the moment.

 

[X-Act]

I've been thinking about what Maniaclyrasist has said about Ludicolo, and have come to the conclusion that Ludicolo should stay in BL... but only just. Ludicolo is actually not bulky, despite what people say about it. What makes it appear bulky is its typing, which makes it have STAB on its Grass move, so making it much more difficult both to switch into it (not even Lanturn can) and to threaten it if you DO manage to switch something in because of its very few weaknesses. This is unlike, say, Omastar.

 

[rkatzam]

I'm against Houndoom, we're dealing with a whole different level of damage here compared to Ninetales. Even when Ninetales has Nasty Plotted its still working off a 80 base attack. This is similar to our other NP users in UU, Toxicroak at 86 and Persian at 65.

Technician'd Adamant 252 Mach Punch from Hitmontop will not OHKO Houndoom either. At least in the case of Jynx its getting absolutely mauled by Sucker Punch's and its only got CM to work with.

Mach Punch from Adamant Technician Hitmontop definitely 1HKO's Houndoom, unless for some reason it's carrying a lot of HP EVs.

Realistically speaking Typhlosion has more reason to rejoin UU than Houndoom does joining due to it being the only thing that can help the Rain > Sun scenario in UU since its a regular user.

Are you serious? Typhlosion is a totally different issue.. his Eruption Choice Scarf set is deadly enough to destroy everything in UU metagame if they mispredict.

This isn't much of an argumet really since i did mention the Hitmons in my post. Hitmonchan really isn't that common and Hitmonlee normaly won't carry Mach Punch except on some CB sets and even then most i've seen dont carry even that.

Kabutops is in the same vein as Hitmonlee as most are SD variants that normally accompany Rain Dance teams and simply don't carry Aqua Jet. Sharpedo i simply forgot about, but from what ive seen he isnt that common either. Once again not many things use Fake Out, only Hitmontop who already has Mach Punch and the odd Kangaskhan or Persian, who wouldnt even need it since it is faster anyway, Purugly is hardly common so i don't even think that needs mentioning.

Claiming they are "uncommon" isn't a really good argument either. If pokemon A was moved down to UU, then pokemon B as a good counter will get a lot more use now. The hitmons are actually quite common, I've been playing a lot of UU lately. I believe Houndoom deserves at least testing... look at Venomoth - the Specs version practically wrecks the best special UU walls, and I hear no one complaining about that.