Little Cup Metagame Development

[sbc]

OK, I'm going to just brainstorm a rough tierlist. The categories may need reworking and just general things I've seen from LC battles. An asterix means the pokemon could be moved up, two asterixs mean it could be moved down

Banned
Scyther, Yanma, Sneasel, Meditite

Staple (e.g. Tyranitar, Lucario, Blissey, Gengar etc)
Bronzor, Chinchou, Gastly, Dratini, Diglett, Aipom**, Murkrow, Abra, Cranidos, Munchlax, Magmemite,

Common (e.g. Snorlax, Vaporeon etc)
Houndour*, Staryu, Misdreavus, Hippopotas, Snover, Rhyhorn, Gible, Eevee, Meowth, Trapinch, Porygon, Buizel, Elekid*, Magby*, Larvitar, Totodile, Smoochum, Kabuto, Ponyta, Mankey*, Omanyte, Growlithe, Onix, Charmander, Machop, Tangela*

Rare
Too much stuff to say


Just from what I've seen, but we need more battlers playing regularly to get a fuller idea.

 

[eric the espeon]

First before we attempt to make the list, how many are we aiming for in each tier?

There are 171 Pokemon allowed, of which we have banned 4, the question is how to divide them up I think we could split them into 4 tiers (+ a banned list) with each being roughly the same size.
So each tier would have around 41 Pokemon, the lower tiers may be larger and the higher tiers smaller.
What does everyone think of this?

The other way to go about this is simply to concentrate on OU/BL and ignore the lower tiers for now. If we do this we would set OU to around 15-20 Pokemon and BL to somewhere between 25 and 40.
mm.... I like the second way better..

What exactly do * and ** mean on your list DN?

 

[T_T]

An asterix means the pokemon could be moved up, two asterixs mean it could be moved down

What exactly do * and ** mean on your list DN?

For about a week, I am really, really interested in LC, though I guess not many people play this. Can anyone firstly list every Pokemon that is allowed in LC btw ?

 

[eric the espeon]

oh... silly me..

And Pokemon in This post + everything Here - Anything on the banned list in the OP are allowed in LC.
We do not play on official server, we go to DJD's CaP server.

 

[T_T]

oh... silly me..

And Pokemon in This post + everything Here - Anything on the banned list in the OP are allowed in LC.
We do not play on official server, we go to DJD's CaP server.

yay, ty.. this is just what I searched for =D

Btw, can you tell me the port,etc.. of DJD's searched? I somehow dont have it on my Shoddy =(.

Ty in Advance :D

 

[eric the espeon]

It should all be in this thread.

 

[hellmonkey]

I like how concentrating on OU sounds. Right now, we have to define what is going to be a staple and what is not.

We starded with "everything's allowed (sans Scyther), test what you like".The first teams I saw were very different from each other, as people were only testing different pokémon to see if they were any good. Over the course of this, we found Yanma, Sneasel and Meditite were quite broken, so now they are banned, and nothing else has stood out for a possible ban thus far. Also, the "OU" tier started defining itself, and now many teams use Murkrow, Bronzor and Dratini, for example (from what I've seen).

What we could do is gather the, say, 30-40 most statistically powerful LC pokémon and sort them into OU/BL at first depending on our empirical usage evidence.

Oh, and I need confirmation on if the box trick works...I need it for the new guide.

 

[eric the espeon]

Ask for info on the box trick Here.

Right then so does anyone disagree that we want to aim for an OU list of 15-20, and a BL list of ~25? Later we can work on other tiers.

If everyone agrees I can get a preliminary version of the tier list up today or tomorrow

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Also, I'd like to propose something.

There are a lot of pokemon that never evolve, but still have piss-poor stats like the rest of the NFEs. I'm looking at Mawile, Delibird, Farfetch'd, Luvdisc, etc. If there's a group consensus, would it be possible to allow these Mons into the LC metagame, given that their stats are just about on par with the rest of the NFEs?

(As for a list of Mons I'm thinking of, I'm looking at Mawile, Delibird, Farfetch'd, Luvdisc, possibly Sableye if his Typing isn't looked at as too broken, Corsola, and Spinda.)

 

[eric the espeon]

That has been suggested before, the general response is that once you start allowing weak Pokemon in it is hard to know where to stop. It makes the rules much more complex as well.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

It's actually pretty easy. The average BST for a mon in LC is about 250-300, and all of the aforementioned mons generally fit the description. I think they'd add some flavor to the metagame, considering that Bronzor, Shieldon, and Magnemite are the only LC steels, it'd be nice to have a physical Steel in LC. Farfetch'd and Delibird don't see any use elsewhere. Sableye's movepool is mediocre to go with its excellent typing.

Honestly, I see nothing wrong with letting the godawful single-evolution mons in. They'd be tested just like the others, and if they're judged to be broken, banned.

 

[eric the espeon]

BST is not a good way to estimate power, and if we let even one Pokemon that does not fit the normal requirements for LC (1st stage, can evolve) it would change the idea behind the metagame dramaticly.

 

[hellmonkey]

Yes, the idea of Little Cup is that it is a metagame of pre-evolutions. Adding guys such as Luvdisc would only make the rules more complex, as everyone would have to agree on a limit for the BST for example.

 

[Tsukikage]

My second WIP. Please, as always, make corrections and comment. Is Fighting the right HP for the Specs set? EVs for the BP set? Per usual, help with counters is welcome.

Buizel

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Aqua Jet/Waterfall
move 2: Quick Attack/Return
move 3: Brick Break
move 4: Pursuit
item: Choice Band/Choice Scarf
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Jolly/Adamant
evs: 236 Atk/236 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Buizel has great speed and uses it well coupled with a decent attack. It has two priority moves (With the type combo of them being unresisted) at its becking, but if the low base power throws you off, it has regular moves as well.

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Surf
move 2: Swift
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Hidden Power [Fighting]
item: Choice Specs/Choice Scarf
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Timid/Modest
evs: 78 HP/196 SpA/236 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Special version of the first set. With no priority moves, this set must make up for the lower attacking stat with more powerful moves. Swift is a never miss move for those of you that fear Double Team for some reason. As usual, Water/Normal is unresisted.

[SET]
name: Baton Pass
move 1: Agility/Bulk Up
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Baton Pass
move 4: Aqua Jet/Surf
item: Leichi Berry/Salac Berry
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Jolly/Timid
evs: 236 HP/236 Spe/(38 SpA)

[SET COMMENTS]
If you are passing Agility, go with Leichi Berry, but Salac for Bulk Up. Obviosuly Jolly and Timid depends on which attack you are using. If you decide to use Surf, then 38 Special Attack EVs can be used, but those 38 will not do anything to the Attack stat.

[SET]
name: SubPunch
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Focus Punch
move 3: Aqua Jet/Waterfall
move 4: Return/Pursuit
item: Oran Berry
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Jolly
evs: 236 Atk/236 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Standard SubPunch set. Fighting hits a lot of the things Nomral would hit anyway, so Pursuit is an option over Return.

[SET]
name: Mixed
move 1: Surf
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Brick Break
move 4: Aqua Jet/Quick Attack
item: Life Orb/Choice Scarf
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Naive
evs: 76 Atk/196 SpA/236 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Maxing out speed allows you to beat positive natured Gastly and neutral natured Abra, Aipom, Meowth, and Ponyta. Surf is your main attack and will do a lot of general damage. Ice Beam is for Tangela and flyers. Brick Break is primarily for Munchlax, but has many other uses as well. For opponents that may survive and are faster than you, Use a priority move to finish them off. Aqua Jet is preferable to hit ghosts, but if Tangela scares you, then Quick Attack is the better option.

[OTHER OPTIONS]
Buizel can become its own Rain supporter with Rain Dance. Swift Swim easily makes it one of the fastest Pokes in Little Cup, even without a Scarf. It can support your team with Toxic, and even has Endure, but not much to make use of it.

[EVS]
Maximize your Speed and Attacking stat that you are using, with the exception of the Baton Pass set because you want your subs to be as big as possible. A positive speed nature and max EVs lets you beat many common threats, and Buizel's attacking stats aren't the greatest, so maxing them out is always the best option.

[OPINION]
A lot of EVs are required to max out its stats, which hampers it a little, but it really only needs to max out two stats anyway. Buizel has the ability to sweep or aid in another sweep through Baton Pass. Other than Drifloon, Buizel has the fastest Baton Pass in LC.

[COUNTERS]
Bronzor, Bronzor, Bronzor, Bronzor, and Bronzor all counter it pretty well. All joking aside, Bronzor takes neutral from every one of its attacks except Ice Beam which is not very effective but Bronzor can't do much back. Munchlax and Tangela both do well against physical versions, but Tangela has trouble taking Ice Beams from the special variant, in which case Mantyke fairs fairly well. Diglett has the advantage of being able to outspeed Buizel by one point unless Buizel is scarfed and Diglett isn't. That really doesn't matter though, as Sucker Punch goes first anyway. Diglett should be wary because if Sucker Punch doesn't KO, then Buizel will destroy it with STAB Water moves. Scarf Gastly can also come in and revenge kill with Thunderbolt. Elekid is faster than Buizel and has STAB Electric attacks to really hurt as well.

EDIT: Fixed with Eric's suggestions

 

[Articanus]

After playing a couple of Little Cup matches(finally), I have come to the conclusion that Item Clause should remain in effect!

There are two items that grabbed my attention in particular: Choice Scarf and Oran Berry. I've seen both of these spammed to the point where I find it ridiculous. I bet a team of 6 Scarfers could win matches easily!

I am also putting in Gligar for consideration into uber status. His STAB combination of EQ and Aerial Ace, while not the most powerful, easily takes on the little cup metagame. Not to mention he can pull off a Sub+Salac set with ease and run through teams, especially with SS and SR up(Hippotatus =D).

 

[qwert42]

After playing a couple of Little Cup matches(finally), I have come to the conclusion that Item Clause should remain in effect!

There are two items that grabbed my attention in particular: Choice Scarf and Oran Berry. I've seen both of these spammed to the point where I find it ridiculous. I bet a team of 6 Scarfers could win matches easily!

I am also putting in Gligar for consideration into uber status. His STAB combination of EQ and Aerial Ace, while not the most powerful, easily takes on the little cup metagame. Not to mention he can pull off a Sub+Salac set with ease and run through teams, especially with SS and SR up(Hippotatus =D).

IMO item clause just makes the metagame more bland, and boring. And so far no item has proven to be broken.

 

[hellmonkey]

For Item Clause discussion, I'd like to see some sort of a tournament: half of the participants would enforce IC and half would be free to whore whatever item(s) they want. We play some matches, read logs, and discuss what's more beneficial.

Currently I'm inclined towards no Item Clause...though I DESPISE Oran Berry >_>

 

[eric the espeon]

My opinion is that though having multiple Focus Sash/Oran Berry/Choice Scarf gives you a considerably better team than being forced to only use one of each, if the item clause was in affect it would limit team building drastically.
With only one Scarfer on each team fast setup sweepers would be extremely hard to stop, limiting teams to 1 Oran Berry would make defensive teams totally unusable, and 1 Sash further reduces the ease of revenge killing.
IMO its a not very useful clause, I don't think it would promote rarer/weaker Pokemon as they tend to rely on one of the best items to carry out their strategy, and those "best" items would be needed for something else.

As for Gligar, personally I have not found it to hard to deal with but I am willing to move it to "Under Testing" if at least one more person agrees with you on it.

Quick comments on Buizel, it needs a mixed set with LO/Scarf I know Evs will be complicated but that's one of its best sets.
Counters needs more revenge killers, and can Bronzor take Specs STAB surf? what can Bronzor do back to it, other than the risky and sometimes unusable Hypnosis.
The EV section needs more explanation of how many evs are needed for getting points and stuff like that, and Opinion could do with expanding.

nice analysis, I will add it to the OP when you update it.

 

[hellmonkey]

Move Legality guide should be up by the end of the day.

 

[Tsukikage]

I think this will be my last one for the week unless I get more free time on my hands, so here is my third anlysis. Again, feedback is much appreciated.

Is Leech Seed sufficient enough to warrant the removal of a healing move on the subseed set? If I use Wish one turn, and Explosion the next, would my switch in get the healing from Wish?

Exeggcute

[SET]
name: Double Status
move 1: Hypnosis
move 2: Stun Spore/Toxic
move 3: Leaf Storm/Psychic
move 4: Explosion
item: Oran Berry
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Bold
evs: 196 HP/196 Def/36 SpA/76 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Similar to Gallade in OU, Exeggcute has access to a wide variety of status inducing moves. Paralyzation is one of the better status ailments, so it is prefered over Toxic. Leaf Storm will put out more damage over 3 turns than Energy Ball, so it is the preferable choice.

[SET]
name: Trick Room Supporter
move 1: Hypnosis
move 2: Trick Room
move 3: Wish/Leech Seed
move 4: Leaf Storm/Psychic
item: Oran Berry
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Relaxed
ivs: 0 Spe
evs: 196 HP/196 Def/36 SpA/76 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
With its low speed and good defenses, Exeggcute makes a good user of Trick Room. Leaf Storm and Psychic are your choice of STAB for Exeggcute to take advantage of.

[SET]
name: Wish
move 1: Wish
move 2: Protect
move 3: Leaf Storm/Explosion
move 4: Hypnosis
item: Oran Berry
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Relaxed
ivs: 0 Spe
evs: 196 HP/196 Def/36 SpA/76 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Wish can provide healing for you or the rest of your team. Otherwise, its a pretty straight forward set. If you are about to faint, Explode for huge damage.

[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Leaf Storm/Energy Ball
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Hidden Power [Fire]
move 4: Explosion
item: Choice Specs/Choice Scarf
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Rash/Naive
evs: 36 HP/40 Atk/200 Spe/200 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]
Obligatory choice set. Grass and Fire make a great attacking combo. It hits a majority, if not everything in LC for atleast neutral. Psychic is for secondary STAB and when all else fails, explode in their face.

[SET]
name: SunnyBeam
move 1: Sunny Day
move 2: Hidden Power [Fire]/Synthesis
move 3: Solarbeam
move 4: Explosion
item: Oran Berry
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Timid
evs: 36 HP/36 Def/196 Spe/196 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]
Under Sunny Day, Exeggcute hits 28 Speed, outrunning Positive-nature Scarf Gastly. Sunny Day also allows for one turn Solar Beam and Synthesis to restore 75%. When all else fails, Explode.

[OTHER OPTIONS]
Swords Dance and Curse can be used as a gimmick set, but Exeggcute's physical movepool is rather shallow. Calm Mind can be used to boost special stats and it also has Reflect/Light Screen for defensive purpouses. Exeggcute can Substitute and Leech Seed, but that is generally not an effective strategy in LC.

[EVS]
Exeggcute has the luxury of not needing many EVs to max out, leaving other stats to enhance. HP and Defense should be maxed, but to do this, only 196 EVs are needed, freeing up 36 for Special Attack and 76 for Special Defense to raise each one point. Exeggcute is rather slow, so Speed really doesn't need anything other than the Sunny Day set.

[OPINION]
Exeggcute is normally looked over because Tangela is considered better, but Exeggcute has some advantages in its accuracy of its sleep move, STAB Psychic, Trick Room, and access to more stat uppers. Exeggcute is pursuit weak however, and Tangela has better stats across the board.

[COUNTERS]
Any special Fire or Ice attack basically elimnates Exeggcute from play, so Houndour can come in with little fear of Energy Ball and OHKO with Flamethrower. Maybe not so surprisingly, Tangela counters Exeggcute pretty well. Assuming it hits, Tangela can put Exeggcute to sleep first because it is faster and threaten with HP Fire. Gastly can normally come in and threaten with HP Ice or Sludge Bomb, and Bronzor beats Exeggcute without HP Fire.

Fixed with eric's suggestions.

 

[cim]

Item Clause is stupid, in my opinion. Really stupid. It was arbitrarily decided by the OP of the Little Cup thread back when other players actually thought Item Clause made sense, and it's stuck around since. Having 6 Choice Scarfers won't break the game, but not allowing more than one Oran Berry really will. Defense is hard enough in Little Cup as it is...

We should decide tiers by usage, IMO, just like the real ones. How do we track that? Good question. We could do what Bologo did for awhile and log every Pokémon in the RMT section. I could also manually write down whom I end up battling's Pokémon... I dunno.

EDIT: ICBB users can edit posts! Uh, I dunno why Dratini gets Focus Punch, but I got that from Shoddy Battle... then again I got the rest of his movepool wrong too... I'll redo it later today.

 

[eric the espeon]

Right comments:
double status
I don't know how well double status would work, but poison is near useless in LC so Stun Spore should be the main option.
I don't think it has the defences/resistanses to last long so the bottom 2 moveslots should be

Leaf Storm / Psychic
Explosion

with that if your opponents switches after sleep, you para the switchin and KO it with explode or a STAB attack.
the EVs would need changing.

Physical Wall
not enough defences to pull of a total wall set, I would remove this and change it to a Trick Room supporter.

SubSeed
mmmmm... unless it has Hypnosis it will have a hard time getting a sub up, and even with it its not a great set as it is walled badly by any grass type. I think move to Other Options.

Wish
Ohhh a LC wishpasser.... not many of them around. right this will want min speed so the recipient of wish is not KO'd. Give it a 0 IV and Relaxed nature so it hits 8 speed, the bottom 2 moves should be more like
Leaf Storm / Explosion
Hypnosis

Leaf Storm is much more powerful than Energy Ball over 2 turns (160 Vs 210) and even after 3 turns LS wins (240 Vs 245) Eggscute will almost never stay in that long.

I don't think ether Cm or Curse cute are very viable, things hit to hard and too fast for them to set up. Move to Other Options, and replace with Choice sets.

Sunny day looks ok, but HP fire should be the main option over Synthesis

Defense should be mxed
should be
Defence should be maxed

Opinion should mention STAB Psychic, Trick Room and Wish which Tangela does not have.

needs more counters. Ghastly can take the odd grass attack and is immune to explosion so can work. I think Bronzor beats it if it lacks HP fire.


Edit:

We should decide tiers by usage, IMO, just like the real ones. How do we track that? Good question. We could do what Bologo did for awhile and log every Pokémon in the RMT section. I could also manually write down whom I end up battling's Pokémon... I dunno.

I would love to do it by useage, but unless we have a ladder and DJD works out how to log stats its not going to happen.
Judging by RMTs is just as inaccurate as by discussion, especially given the tiny number of RMTs that exist.

EDIT: ICBB users can edit posts! Uh, I dunno why Dratini gets Focus Punch, but I got that from Shoddy Battle... then again I got the rest of his movepool wrong too... I'll redo it later today.

really great! Please correct the errors in your analysis. Also my shoddy (on DJDs) does not show Focus Punch, what server did you use?

Edit 2: working on a preliminary tier list.

 

[eric the espeon]

Little Cup Tier List

Little Cup Tier List
The standard metagame has one, and now we do to, :D

Ubers/Banned (5)These are too strong for OU.

Meditite, Scyther, Sneasel, Yanma, Tangela.

OU (25)
These are very common on many teams, but not strong enough to be banned.

Abra, Aipom, Bronzor, Buizel, Chinchou, Cranidos, Cyndaquil, Diglett, Dratini, Drifloon, Elekid, Gastly, Gible, Gligar, Hippopotas, Houndour, Kabuto, Larvitar, Magby, Magnemite, Meowth, Munchlax, Murkrow, Onix, Ponyta, Porygon, Rhyhorn, Snover, Staryu, Trapinch.

BL (56)
These are not very common, but are quite powerful.

Aron, Anorith, Azurill, Bagon, Bonsly, Buneary, Cacnea, Carvanha, Charmander, Chimchar, Clamperl, Croagunk, Cubone, Duskull, Eevee, Exeggcute, Geodude, Growlithe, Horsea, Koffing, Krabby, Lickitung, Lileep, Machop, Makuhita, Mankey, Mantyke, Mime Jr., Misdreavus, Mudkip, Nosepass, Numel, Omanyte, Paras, Ratatta, Riolu, Sheildon, Shroomish, Shuppet, Smoochum, Spheal, Stunky, Surskit, Taillow, Teddiursa, Tentacool, Totodile, Treecko, Voltorb, Vulpix, Wailmer, Wynaut, Zigzagoon.

Other/ UU/UUBL/NU (85)
These are not very strong, and will be sorted later.

Bulbasaur, Squirtle, Caterpie, Weedle, Pidgey, Spearow, Ekans, Sandshrew, Zubat, Nidoran M, Nidoran F, Oddish, Venonat, Psyduck, Poliwag, Bellsprout, Slowpoke, Doduo, Seel, Grimer, Shellder, Drowzee, Goldeen, Magikarp, Chikorita, Sentret, Hoothoot, Ledyba, Spinarak, Pichu, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Togepi, Natu, Mareep, Hoppip, Sunkern, Wooper, Pineco, Snubbull, Slugma, Swinub, Remoraid, Phanpy, Tyrogue, Torchic, Poochyena, Wurmple, Lotad, Seedot, Wingull, Ralts, Slakoth, Nincada, Whismur, Skitty, Electrike, Gulpin, Spoink, Barboach, Corphish, Baltoy, Feebas, Snorunt, Beldum, Turtwig, Piplup, Starly, Kricketot, Budew, Burmy, Combee, Cherubi, Shellos, Glameow, Chingling, Happiny, Skorupi, Finneon, Shinx, Swablu, Bidoof.

That's the lot of them.
When OU/BL settles the other metagames can be organized.
I will not Alphabetize the "Other" tier yet as it will be shuffled, use Control-F to find Pokemon.

Comments? Things to move? Other stuff?

 

[Bologo]

Azurill should definitely NOT be in LC UU. Seriously, the thing can reach 24 attack WITHOUT a Choice Band, and 36 with one (Huge Power boost). CB Return (with Normal STAB) can destroy stuff like there's no tomorrow, and CB Double-Edge kills even more, though recoil's tough. Nothing in LC enjoys taking a hit from Azurill, and although he is slow, he still hits miserably hard. He just doesn't deserve to be in the same tier as something like Magikarp for being able to decimate stuff in a single blow like he does.

 

[hellmonkey]

I'd say the following to BL:
Rattata (STAB Guts Facade hurts. Speed is decent)
Geodude (essentially Rhyhorn with Explosion)
Horsea (Monster in Rain)

And the following from BL to UU:
Swablu (too poor offenively for LC, bad typing)
Shinx (HORRID movepool, below average stats)
Zubat (below average stats and lacking movepool)
Bidoof (needs huge amounts of team support to work)

And I'd say Trapinch to BL,since it will only see use on TR teams.

EDIT: And yeah, Azurrill definitely out of UU