Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[dkkc19]

Banning Scolipede and Espeon would be extreme. These Pokemons have their uses outside of baton passing teams. Espeon magic bounce is useful for those who can't fit a spinner or defogger in their team, or just like Magic Bounce in general. Scolipede is used for passing speed to slower Pokemons (Had a team based on Scoli passing speed to M-Mawile) and its actually decent as an all out attacker and late game sweeper.

As for banning Baton Pass on Espeon, it would solve the problem, but then again Espeon desperately needs Baton Pass to escape Pursuit.

The best thing in my opinion is to now allow more than two or three Pokemons in one team with Baton Pass. I don't know if that can be done, but that easily would be the best option without resorting to ban Pokemons that are not much of a threat without baton passing, yet somehow useful like Esp and Scoli.

I'm pretty sure these points have been made by other posters before me, but I just wanted to share my opinion.

If my opinion means anything at all anymore, I support the idea to make a complex ban on Stored Power + Baton Pass on the same Pokemon for a couple of different reasons:

1. It prevents us from having to pick an arbitrary number as to how many Pokes with BP we would allow on a team.
2. It drastically slows down full Baton Pass teams without completely killing them, and it also preserves other strategies related to BP.

Do most Baton Passing teams rely on Stored Power?

 

[REXinator]

Hmm... I think we should not interfer into the Metagame too much.

Who says HO has to be a valid playstyle und BP not? It's just that HO seems to be the style of choice and others simply are called "noobs" just too often and too easy.

In my opinion there are nice and really a lot of ways to beat the BP-chains. And when BP-chains become overpowered also the things against them will be used more often and in comparision to Prankster+Swagger you are really need tactics to use them right and still win against other types of teams:

Haze (viable options):
Blastoise, Blastoise-Mega, Chandelure, Cofagrigus, Crobat, Dragonite, Dusclops, Gengar, Politoed, Quagsire, Tentacruel, Vaporeon, Zygarde

Unaware (viable options):
Clefable, Quagsire

Moldbreaker+Roar:
Druddigon, Gyarados-Mega, Haxorus, Pangoro, Rampardos

Moldbreaker+Taunt:
Basculin, Druddigon, Gyarados-Mega, Hawlucha, Haxorus, Pangoro, Sawk, Throh

Infiltrator+Trick/Switcheroo:
Chandelure, Malamar, Meowstic, Noivern, Seviper, Spiritomb

Curse+Ghost:
Banette, Banette-Mega, Chandelure, Cofagrigus, Dusclops, Dusknoir, Gengar, Golurk, Mismagius, Spiritomb, Trevenant

Focusenergy+Razorclaw (viable options):
Conkeldurr, Darmanitan, Donphan, Flygon, Haxorus, Hydreigon, Infernape, Kingdra, Krookodile, Machamp, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Pinsir, Pinsir-Mega, Salamence, Scizor, Scizor-Mega, Sharpedo, Tyranitar, Tyranitar-Mega, Victini

Skilllink+Multihitmoves:
Cinccino, Cloyster, Heracross-Mega

Punishment/Knockoff+Dark Type+Taunt:
Absol, Absol-Mega, Weavile

Prankster+Destinybond:
Banette-Mega

...and the really unusual stuff like...

Infiltrator+Dragontail:
Seviper

Heartswap:
Manaphy, Smeargle

Truant+Skillswap:
Durant

...and even more stuff like...

Perishsong, Redcard, Psychup, and so on...

Should we really decide, that we do not like to use all these options, because the are maybe not useful against all types of play but still against a lot of them?

 

[Ninja Charizard]

My opinion on baton pass is that being able to "counter" it 100% of the time forces a player to run all sorts of things that would typically be deemed nonviable in any other situation to be able to stop it.

This line exemplifies what is wrong with most posts in this thread. You are already approaching the problem the wrong way. Baton Pass is not a pokemon, move or ability, it's a playstyle. You are not supposed to be able to counter it 100% of the time with a non obscure counter. If there was a pokemon who could shut down bp 100% of the time and easily be slapped on any team, bp teams wouldn't be viable. The same can be said about deosharp teams, there isn't an easy and perfect way to always beat them, they are more or less prepared against everything, which is why they are viable in the first place.

The level of "countering" you should expect when dealing baton pass is a diferent one. It's being able to go into battle with a non obscure pokemon and have a decent chance of winning with the right prediction and strategy. And let me say again, there are a lot of pokemon who can do that. Any powerful wallbreaker can put enough pressure on bp teams from the beginning of the match, and thus force them into risky predictions that may cost them the match. As for stall teams, they have a way harder time, but if haze quagsire is a shaky check to them that works a reasonable amount of the time, them stall teams also have a fighting chance. And against an entire playstyle, having a fighting chance is enough to make it not overpowered.

Seriously guys, stop using words as 100%, always, or perfect, this isn't a pokemon suspect test, is an entire team we're talking about. The scale is just different.

 

[MasterRyuga]

i just want to say before i add my opinion that announcing cheap things like baton pass is almost like promoting it since people see how cheap it it they spam it on PS i just got done with a session and it was full of baton pass teams so i came here. now
yes baton pass teams are not progressive in terms of development. reason for this is you boost then pass and like they said it would force you to have a direct counter to it just to be able to ladder up.
honestly i always have thought it was cheap when the whole team is baton passing. kinda annoying when your not prepared for something that has zero skill.
no,banning of both pokemon would not help since you can throw 6 pokemon besides them that will most likely make it unnoticeable,if anything the restriction of how many pokemon per team with the move or a combination of moves would work better in my opinion.
to make complex banns we must test accordingly to make sure it is fair to everyone and assure that combination is indeed not healthy for the meta.
if baton pass teams start overrunning the meta it should be vital that we slow it down so we do not have to limit team building by always having a prankster taunt/counter for that . we should vote for this suggestion in terms of bans or restrictions as fast as this problem grows and only if it gets to that point.

 

[jbtc10]

If action is taken here it won't just make BP teams "more manageable", it will outright kill the playstyle.

Banning Swagger obviously outright killed Swagplay, that doesn't necessarily mean that doing so was a bad thing. If the game becomes better and more enjoyable by getting rid of something deemed to be degenerate, why not do it?

 

[Punchshroom]

/B/utterfree yeah I have a couple of rebuttals toward your post, in that Baton Pass has enough options to shoot down nearly every single one of your supposed responses so that they are nowhere near as consistent as they would be.

SubCoil Zygarde - You say this sets up on Scolipede / Ninjask (who uses Ninjask lol), but the presence of Sylveon or even Encore Mr. Mime on the opponent's team means you still have to play carefully (no different from most other setup sweepers). If you play smart, congrats you've delayed (but probably not have KOed) the Scolipede from passing boosts; but if the Scolipede user plays smart, like Iron Defensing turn 1 and BPing turn 2 to said Fairy while you Dragon Tail, you've just lost a fuckton of momentum.
Choice Band Talonflame - It can prompt the Baton Pass team to play more carefully, but there are cases where the BP team just outright breaks their chain and switches into their Zapdos, or Mega Mawile since you're pretty much forced to Brave Bird, then start setting up again from there.
Haze (Milotic, Quagsire, Cofagrigus, Dusknoir, etc) - Thing is, Haze is pretty much only used for Baton Pass, because would you seriously run Haze + Unaware Quagsire otherwise? This is bordering on the lines of "evasion move counters" in terms of sheer impracticality.
Leech Seed - If only there wasn't a move / ability that is common as hell on Baton Pass teams that can prevent this from happening~ also, stopping Vaporeon with this only leads to others setting up on their users, like Scizor, Mawile, or even Espeon. Leech Seed can even be negated by Aqua Ring and Ingrain.
Prankster Trick / Switcheroo - I excluded unprioritized Trick since that will hardly work ever in the face of speedy Substitutes, but Baton Pass teams carry Mega Pokemon for this very reason.
Choice Specs Politoed - How does the same guy who mentioned about having problems with Vaporeon completely forget about it here?
Perish Song - Also as impractical as Haze, and it won't stop teams with Mr. Mime on them. Prankster Murkrow may be able to break the chain once...before getting immediately killed off since it's still frail as shit, and won't be able to stop the chain a second time (imagine the Talonflame scenario; setting up after a broken chain is something BP teams are very capable of). In any case, they still have two turns to unleash hell on your team, which can take down key members of your team needed to handle them otherwise.
Thunder Wave - Thunder Wave only slows them down, but doesn't necessarily make them easier to KO since they keep their other stats. They could pass to Scolipede, who can stave off T-Waves for a while to garner Speed boosts, then pass to a teammate immune to T-Wave, such as Espeon, Zapdos, and the admittedly rare Gliscor, keeping the Speed boosts. Or they could do break the chain and start setting up with their T-Wave absorber if they feel like it.
Early offensive pressure - This is the likely scenario players find themselves in when they do not have too much trouble with Baton Pass. However, note the term 'early', this means you need a favorable lead matchup to get going against BP; if the opposite happens, you may be fighting an uphill battle right from the very start of the match
Infiltrator and Sound attacks - This is just a matter of resisting the attack in question: Crobat can do much about Zapdos, Scizor, or Mawile; Chandelure can have issues with a Vaporeon Baton Passed some Calm Minds by Sylveon; Meloetta loses to the Mega Steel-types; and Volcarona will never beat Vaporeon if it has Roar to negate the former's Quiver Dances.

Or am I grossly mistaken in my numerous attempts to run a Baton Pass team that have failed?

While I'm not insinuating your skill as a whole, yes this is the most likely reason. Well played / constructed Baton Pass teams lose to the fewest things ever out of any playstyle, as it is usually a simple of matter of tweaking Pokemon, moves, or even just EVs to fix most problems while keeping the general strategy fully intact.

We're not supposed to use complex bans to solve problems; it goes against our own policies and principles! It also makes Zarel's job harder than it really needs to be!
Complex bans are what Smogon resorts to when removing an unhealthy element of the meta while minimizing the 'collateral' damage in order to maintain diversity, like the DrizzleSwim complex ban letting players use Rain without it getting out of control. Case in point...

Ban Mr. Mime, then if needed ban Sylveon.
Sylveon is a healthy aspect for the OU meta, as it is one of the premier bulky Fairies in the tier, as well as one of the best clerics, as even Clefable does not possess Sylveon's HP and better raw bulk, while Chansey covets the better typing. The lower tiers (particularly RU) would also not appreciate losing Mr. Mime as a whole. This is the example of 'collateral' damage I'm talking about.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Banning Swagger obviously outright killed Swagplay, that doesn't necessarily mean that doing so was a bad thing. If the game becomes better and more enjoyable by getting rid of something deemed to be degenerate, why not do it?

Degeneracy is subjective. I don't think BP teams are degenerate.

Drizzle (and by extension, weather abilities) overcentralized the entire BW meta and to this day many agree that was the root of the problem. How else do you explain stuff like Torn-T being banned? Manual Rain Dance was nowhere to be seen in OU After that because Drizzle was just too good to pass up.

If action is taken here it won't just make BP teams "more manageable", it will outright kill the playstyle.

I don't think there isn't a way that BP teams can be nerfed to where they're not so difficult to play against, but to where it doesn't completely kill it.

And while banning Drizzle would have solved pretty much all the problems of last gen, I also don't think it would have been the best idea. Yeah it took a bunch of bans to get some semblance of balance, but it still allowed stuff like rain stall and offensive rain teams to exist, which, while arguably centralizing, weren't OP. And we only need to find one good, effective rule or ban to make BP teams more balanced.

 

[Pyritie]

What about banning something like Baton Pass + Stored Power or Baton Pass + Ingrain? Scolipede and Espeon would still be able to keep their movesets that are viable outside of BP teams, and smeargle only ever uses ingrain for BP. BP teams would still be viable but you wouldn't get the sheer ridiculousness that stored power can reach, and they'd still have a counter in things like whirlwind.

 

[Clair]

You are already approaching the problem the wrong way. Baton Pass is not a pokemon, move or ability, it's a playstyle. You are not supposed to be able to counter it 100% of the time with a non obscure counter. If there was a pokemon who could shut down bp 100% of the time and easily be slapped on any team, bp teams wouldn't be viable.

No. Baton Pass is not a typical playstyle and cannot be treated like one. It's even possible to argue that in many matches it's hardly a playstyle at all, since there is none of what I would call actual playing; simply making the obvious and necessary choice, aware that no matter how much more skilled your opponent is or how much they may outpredict you, you'll still win.

Look. Baton Pass is cheap as fuck and everyone who doesn't use it hates it; many, or even most, players view it as an illegitimate strategy since it's so disparate from any other playstyle. I think we can all agree on that.

The issue really being discussed here is how far along the spectrum you sit on this question: when does a players desire to use Baton Pass outweigh another players desire to not face Baton Pass?

The right to not face Baton Pass is, to my mind, significant. You don't want to have to play a game which is largely skillless and decided by team matchup, and relatedly, you don't want to have to go out of your way to teambuild to beat a skillless and cheap strategy, especially if doing so will cost them wins in other games.

In contrast, I don't believe the desire, or right, to use Baton Pass is significant; again because it requires no skill to use. When not facing a very offensive team with multiple ways to potentially end the BP chain, there isn't even any prediction involved in winning; you can literally follow a simple formula. Players who use it don't contribute anything, either to their opponents or to the metagame, they're simply out to get points.

I believe that, through bans, we aim to reduce the potentially mindless nature of the game. If a sweeper is too powerful, it requires little skill or teambuilding preparation on the part of the user to win with it, versus a lot of skill or teambuilding prep to cope with it on the part of the opponent. Similarly, when Baton Pass is capable of winning with zero skill against a significant portion of teams, it needs to be nerfed.

If we consider the implications of my preferred solution, banning Espeon from using Baton Pass, the influx of ways to deal with Baton Pass that would result is considerable; phazing and Taunt being the most significant. As a result, while the BPass playstyle wouldn't be wiped out, it would be forced to adjust considerably. It would no longer be possible against most teams to simply set up the chain and win; rather, the chain would have to apply consistent pressure through attacks or moves like Taunt to prevent those methods of disruption that Espeon could no longer prevent. You'd see a lot more offensive moves and patterns of play, a lot more shorter chains, and things like lures or trappers to remove threats. In other words, Baton Pass would have to live like the other playstyles; forced to rely on a combination of teambuilding and gameplay skill to win.

 

[Sevifar]

• Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?

I think that if handling these teams effectively is something that needs to be done through EXTREME teambuilding measures, then yes.

• If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

It seems like the changes this gen are the straw that's broken the camel's back. I think you need to look at what has changed this generation from last, in terms of BP. The Blaziken ban showed that speed boost and BP can be incredibly dangerous on a good pokemon. However, Ninjask has been able to do it for a while now. So maybe the answer lies somewhere in Scolipede.

• Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

Needs a bit more research I think. I don't think those pokemon should be banned just because of BP. Espeon has merit outside of BP.

• Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

Once again, needs a bit more research. Although I think this would be better as the inherent problem isn't so much the pokemon, its the actual playstyle.

• Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

Well now this is a whole separate can of worms. I've been in favour of complex bans for a while now, although I can see the logic in not wanting them. Blaziken + Speed boost is probably the best other example. Perhaps a limit of having only one pokemon knowing baton pass (as in, you can have multiple pokemon who learn it but only one that actually has the move) would be a decent solution.

 

[MAMP]

If my opinion means anything at all anymore, I support the idea to make a complex ban on Stored Power + Baton Pass on the same Pokemon for a few different reasons:

1. It prevents us from having to pick an arbitrary number with regards to how many Pokes with BP we would allow on a team.
2. It drastically slows down full Baton Pass teams without completely killing them, and it also preserves other strategies related to BP.
3. It does not nerf Espeon as a whole, which a complex ban on Magic Bounce + Baton Pass would do.

I want to throw my full support behind this, this is perfect at keeping Baton Pass viable as a strategy, while also nerfing to the point where it is no longer degenerate, as well as not affecting other strategies.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Clair

But baton pass isn't anymore match up dependant than any other common playstyle. It's like I've said, there are a lot of ofensive pokemon who can pull a weight against baton pass teams from the beginning of the match and prevent them from getting those boosts. It's not hard to have two or three of these pokemon on any non stall team. In the end, the match is decided by which player makes the best predictions. It is competitive, in the sense that there isn't a perfect way to beat bp, but there are many ways to fight it, so it all boils down to player skill.

And no, being boring to fight against is not an argument. I hate facing bp teams myself, but I don't think that's enough to ban them. Stall is also boring to fight against, and nobody thinkas we should ban stall. Actually, I have more fun playing against baton pass than stall, since with the former it tends to take less than 150 turns for the battle to end.

 

[Clair]

Mmm I should say that I'm coming from the perspective of a defensive player who always incorporates two stallbreakers (usually a combination like TauntTran + MMawile to cover Defoggers) so while I have a reasonable perspective of playing against Baton Pass with both defensive and offensive elements, I never play against them with HO, so I may be underestimating how much Baton Pass is forced to rely on prediction in these matchups. When using stall, though, no matter how well prepared you are, you lose, and there's no fight. Haze Quag isn't any kind of solution when the BPass chain does have workarounds and can typically set up over and over again until it breaks through. You'll understand that coming from my background, I can see Baton Pass as being insanely matchup reliant in general, even though for the majority of ladder players who run pure or bulky offense that isn't as much the case.

I think you're misunderstanding what I was saying about the boredom thing - I'd never use boredom as an argument for a ban. To use your stall analogy, while stall matches where there isn't some kind of major imbalance (e.g. one side has a good wallbreaker) can be boring, they're completely skill-reliant; more so than any other playstyle. Baton Pass vs stall is typically an auto-win which could be played out by a trained monkey, even if BPass vs offense is a fairly skill-based matchup. There isn't any other playstyle which can mindlessly win against another mainstream playstyle in this way. The only analogy I can think of which comes close is that of Deo hazard stacking teams vs stall; even if the stall team can Defog with a Quagsire in tow, they can't do so against a Taunting Deo without having to absorb a huge amount of offensive pressure with layers up; so defensive teams typically find somewhat gimmicky ways of working around Deoxys, even as they're forced to do against BPass. Even this isn't as severe as the Baton Pass scenario though, because in the case of Baton Pass the "punishment" if you don't carry one of these solutions is much greater; you get swept, as opposed to having to play round hazards until you can Defog.

 

[Baharoth]

One of many games against even a generic Baton Pass.

I clearly outplay the opponent, I better predict, and I utilize Taunt Gengar. This game shows just how Taunt isn't enough. Granted, I made 2 misplays, switching Gengar out on Sylveon instead of attempting Taunt (but I predicted an Espeon switch), and I did not Scarf Trick the Vaporeon when I had the small, rare chance.

Baton Pass in conjunction with Speed Boost Scolipede and Magic Bounce Espeon creates a state of autonomy, even with a fast Taunt like Gengar. Acquiring boosts is trivial, and thus forces players to incorporate dedicated counters like Prankster Murkrow and/or suboptimal answers like Red Card users, etc.

Remember, not even Prankster Taunt is a guaranteed answer, just by sheer virtue of Magic Bounce.

Baton Pass chain is a top ladder archetype because of Speed Boost Scolipede and Magic Bounce Espeon, as a Suspect Test would confirm.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-109556769

Honestly you just messed up this game big time. Your team is perfectly capable of beating batton pass but if you make mistakes like that ofc you lose, playing like that will cost you the game against any play style.

Turn 2 you go for Shadowball instead of Taunt, why the hell did you do that?

Turn 10 he brings Sylveon and your going to Rotom-w? If you had brought Scizor Sylveon would have been down as Bullet Punch usually ohkoes.

Turn 12 now your using Scizor but go for U-Turn? Why?

Turn 14 you saw that Espeon Speed ties and stay in to get your Gengar killed, once again Scizor would have been the way to go. Bullet Punch solves. Ofc its bad luck to lose the tie twice in a row but there was absolutely no reason to take that risk in the first place.

Turn 15 you have Scizor in against Espeon who is half dead with 2 boosts and you go for U-Turn wtf? Bullet Punch would have ended the chain here once again.

I could go on but i think i just stop here, you could have won the game at this point multiple times. Thats not losing to some overpowered playstyle thats just playing bad.

 

[Martin]

A big reason why Baton Pass is such a good strategy is because 2 Speed Boost users get it (Ninjask and Scolipede), Espeon can use it in conjunction with Magic Bounce, 3 Shell Smash users get it (Gorrebyss, Huntail and Smeargle), 2 Quiver Dancers get it (Venomoth and Smeargle), a Shift Gear user gets it (Smeargle), an Ingrain user gets it (Smeargle), and, to a lesser extent, a freshly-buffed Soundproof user gets it (Mr. Mime) which means that this very difficult to get past once one or two of these things happen (exc. the latter as its main purpose is blocking Roar). Add to the fact that Espeon gets both Stored Power and Dazzling Gleam and it becomes simply terrifying once you reach a point where you can sweep, as nothing - excluding Steel-types to an extent - can take it, although after enough boosts Stored Power will just break through everything that isn't immune to it. I feel that maybe if we were to suspect test Magic Bounce + Baton Pass, Ingrain + Baton Pass and Speed Boost + Baton Pass it might balance the strategy a little, and maybe if it is still found to be pretty broken after those suspect tests (if they were to happen) we could then suspect test SmashPass, QuiverPass and maybe even ShiftPass, although I am not as convinced of ShiftPass being as broken as the other two - I included it as it may gain popularity if Speed Boost + Baton Pass got banned.

I think that, due to Magic Bounce + Baton Pass currently being legal, the best way to get around the strategy is probably Haze and having the opposing Espeon Magic Bounce Parting Shot (luckily, it isn't effected by Ingrain), so if you are trying to find a check or counter to the strategy I suggest maybe using Smeargle (learns both) and/or other Haze users - including Milotic, Blastoise and Crobat (Pangoro can't take a Dazzling Gleam). If you're not in against Espeon and you have a Prankster Taunter or the gimmicky Copycat Riolu set, you can also end the chain; however, these are more situational as they are reliant on Espeon not being on the field and, with the latter, not baton passing onto the field.

 

[Moonclawz]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this already, but I'd like to reference a high-level match that in which one player used Baton Pass.
C0sta vs CyberOdin

This was a SPL match where C0sta used a full Baton Pass team and loss. However, if you watched the replay, you'll be able to see that C0sta was able to set a Baton Pass chain very easily, despite CyberOdin packing a phazer (Skamory), a powerful mixed attacker (Kyurem-B) and a very bulky mixed wall (Chansey). Only after 18 turns, C0sta was able to set-up to +3 Speed, +3 Defense, +4 Special Attack, and +4 Special Defense. This is because C0sta was able to set-up speed and defense boosts very early on with Scolipede, allowing him to easily maneuver around what threats to the Baton Pass Chain CyberOdin might have. In fact, C0sta probably would have won if CyberOdin didn't get a double paralyze on C0sta's Sylveon. Only because he was lucky did CyberOdin win.

This replay basically shows how Baton Pass is very simple to play, but also can be very successful, even against good OU players like CyberOdin. I feel that if we let full Baton Pass teams grow unchecked, eventually they will become very popular, because they are so easy to use and can win a large majority of matches. A metagame in which Baton Pass is one of the dominant playstyles will be terrible to play against, as it severely restricts team-building options and forces people to use Pokemon whose moves are basically dedicated to countering Baton Pass. Although Baton Pass has some checks/counters, the most effective ones are relatively obscure (ex. Haze) and more common ones like Taunt and Roar can be easily played around. Therefore, full Baton Pass teams need to be limited in some form. Otherwise, people will have to mainly rely on luck to beat them. I personally favor limiting Baton Pass to 3 Pokemon, as if more than half your team is using Baton Pass, then your team is most likely a team whose goal is to use a long Baton Pass chain to beat the opponent. I'm open to other options though such as banning Stored Power + Baton Pass.

C05ta CyberOdin - if i misrepresented you, sorry about that. Let me know and I'll fix that. I'd like to here your thoughts too.

 

[Karxrida]

I did. Smogon didn't ban Drizzle, did they? Did they ban Swift Swim? Did they ban Gorebyss from RU? No. They let Politoed, Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, and Gorebyss maintain viability, while still nerfing the factors that made them OP. Banning Politoed would've been a solution to the problem, but was it ideal? Absolutely not. Banning Espeon and Scolipede would be similar to banning Politoed or Kingdra from OU Gen V. Neither is the right way to do things.

Except with Drizzle, the general consensus appears to be that it should have been banned because of how much it overcentralized the meta, which became quite stale because we left it in OU.

 

[Durant]

The solution is only one pokemon with batton pass in the team.

I have to agree with this because this would solve the problem without to much of a complex ban.
If only one pokemon can have baton pass per team baton pass teams would be non existend because only one pokemon can baton pass ( duh ). Well played baton pass teams are hard to counter these days because of all the buffs sixth generation gave to baton pass. Some people say taunt, phazing moves, encore, perish song and haze are easy ways to win against baton pass teams but with the exception of haze all these moves have one thing to counter them on a baton pass team ( Espeon bounces back encore, taunt, whirlwind and roar, Mr mime is immume to dragon tail, perish song and roar ). However if only one pokemon can have baton pass these strategies would be dead because it would be impossible to make a full baton pass team.

The reason however why only one pokemon should have baton pass instead of banning baton pass al together is because baton pass is still used in other sort of teams. Some teams have a Venomoth + special attacker core where Venomoth tries to set up quiver dances to either try to sweep itself or baton pass to another pokemon if it can't sweep a team by itself. Other pokemon use baton pass to escape pursuit trapping ( Celebi ) or try to scout what the opponent is gonna do by baton passing on a predicted switch.

If baton pass may be suspected once then i think this could be the solution.

 

[Pyritie]

I have to agree with this because this would solve the problem without to much of a complex ban.
If only one pokemon can have baton pass per team baton pass teams would be non existend because only one pokemon can baton pass ( duh ). Well played baton pass teams are hard to counter these days because of all the buffs sixth generation gave to baton pass. Some people say taunt, phazing moves, encore, perish song and haze are easy ways to win against baton pass teams but with the exception of haze all these moves have one thing to counter them on a baton pass team ( Espeon bounces back encore, taunt, whirlwind and roar, Mr mime is immume to dragon tail, perish song and roar ). However if only one pokemon can have baton pass these strategies would be dead because it would be impossible to make a full baton pass team.

The reason however why only one pokemon should have baton pass instead of banning baton pass al together is because baton pass is still used in other sort of teams. Some teams have a Venomoth + special attacker core where Venomoth tries to set up quiver dances to either try to sweep itself or baton pass to another pokemon if it can't sweep a team by itself. Other pokemon use baton pass to escape pursuit trapping ( Celebi ) or try to scout what the opponent is gonna do by baton passing on a predicted switch.

If baton pass may be suspected once then i think this could be the solution.

This thread is to brainstorm ideas to nerf baton pass teams, not eliminate it completely

 

[Shyfire]

i do not think that baton pass should be banned. if someone sweeps you using a baton pass team then your problem. there are many baton passers out there, and they are quite easy to deal with if you have the right pokemon. talonflame stops scolipede and leafeon cold. my point is that if you have problems facing a baton pass team then make a team that counters baton pass.

 

[ArcanineLion]

• Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?

No, not at all. The problem is, that it is quite a braindead playstyle. It's very easy to get multiple boosts that the opponent can do nothing about. That doesnt make it broken, just easy to use. There's only one aspect of BP teams that I do think make it broken though, which I answer in the next question.

• If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

Magic Bounce. There are a number of ways to stop BP without relying on crits. Taunt, Roar & Whirlwind, status, Unaware, Sound-based attacking moves, etc. Magic Bounce effectively removes the more common & effectives one like Taunt, status & phazing. Without Magic Bounce, your BP team runs the risk of being shut down by Taunt or phazing. Anyone with a brain will notice your BP team at Team Preview & lead with their Taunter/phazer to straight away stop you. But Magic Bounce stops effective checks and counters to the strategy from working, making BP teams ridiculously hard to stop, & too reliant on crits to take them down.

• Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

No, that's ridiculous. Scolipede is perfectly viable on it's own. Espeon outside of the Magic Bounce niche is garbage, & even using it as a Magic Bouncer is risky because it's not great to begin with. Banning them affects people who don't use BP, but still use those Pokémon too. Baton Passers are not broken.

• Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

Again, no. Baton Pass is perfectly fine on it's own, in fact having just one BPer on your team can be a good strategy, there's a ton of ways you can utilise it well. Even on a full BP team, one Taunt or phazing spoils your day. Baton Pass as a move is not broken. Dry-passing is perfectly fine too. Banning the move itself is idiotic.

• Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

I know Smogon doesn't like complex bans, but frankly I think that's a mentality that needs to change. Banning Baton Pass or banning Espeon or Scolipede is a cop out. On their own, neither of them are broken. What causes an issue is setting up a chain, then passing to a Magic Bouncer that stops you from being Taunted or phazed. If you let them set up that much without them having Magic Bounce, you played awful that game. That goes for letting anything set up. & if your team really doesn't have room for Taunt, or Roar, then maybe you shouldn't build so one-dimensionally. Even moves like Haze would work. & if people want to say "but why do I have to run a move that nobody uses to counter this?" then I refer you to Knock Off. Knock Off was useless until this gen, now it's a very relevant move. Maybe Haze is now a move that becomes more popular to deal with BP. Those moves can find their place of a variety of teams, so fitting them in isn't 'restricting' or 'overcentralising'. Metagames evolve, it happens.

It seems to me the problem people have is setting up a long chain with multiple boosts, so why not nerf being able to set up a long chain? Don't be so quick to ban Baton Pass as a whole because all of a sudden it's become a problem (which I don't think it has in all honesty). So I'm against banning Baton Pass. What I am in favour for, is banning Baton Pass on more than 1 Pokémon, but I feel like that's far too complex to be accepted. SO I guess the safer option is banning Baton Pass + Magic Bounce because that is what removes the checks & counters to the strategy for full BP teams.

 

[DartMonkey29]

Full Baton Pass chains are extremely unhealthy for the meta-game for a number of reasons. I believe that it not only takes very little skill to use effectively, but significantly more importantly, it severely restrains certain kinds of teams from being created, simply because you MUST have haze/perish song or a suprise phaser or surprise taunt. Even then, Espeon, Mr. Mime, Mental Herbs, and taunts of their own can severely limit you ability to deal with the style, bar a pre-substitute critical hit.

It's not that Baton Pass is unbeatable, no, it is in fact extremely easy to beat. As a player who is consistently near the top of the ladder however, I find it more than slightly unhealthy that I have to run a haze Pokemon, or use Perish Song on my CB Azumarill to deal with the style. I am not saying that because the play-style forces particular counters makes it broken, I'm saying that it forces Pokemon to run moves for the strict and sole purpose of stopping it. It essentially auto-wins against a number of playstyles as well, namely full stall. Any style that has several auto-win and auto-loss matchups (but very few skill-based matchups) is extremely unhealthy overall.

I am fine with any kind of complex ban to deal with it. I personally think that disabling the use of Speed Boost + Baton Pass would be enough to stop full Baton Pass chain teams from doing what they do to the metagame at the moment. And doing so would still allow Baton Pass to be used for other purposes. A blanket ban on Baton Pass is completely unnecessary. Overall I think it is unhealthy and support the institution of a complex ban to limit its capabilities.

 

[jpw234]

No. Baton Pass is not a typical playstyle and cannot be treated like one. It's even possible to argue that in many matches it's hardly a playstyle at all, since there is none of what I would call actual playing; simply making the obvious and necessary choice, aware that no matter how much more skilled your opponent is or how much they may outpredict you, you'll still win.

Look. Baton Pass is cheap as fuck and everyone who doesn't use it hates it; many, or even most, players view it as an illegitimate strategy since it's so disparate from any other playstyle. I think we can all agree on that.

Try not to break anything coming down off that high horse, friend. And no, it isn't "cheap is fuck", I don't use it and I don't hate it, and I don't think it's an illegitimate strategy.

The issue really being discussed here is how far along the spectrum you sit on this question: when does a players desire to use Baton Pass outweigh another players desire to not face Baton Pass?

The right to not face Baton Pass is, to my mind, significant. You don't want to have to play a game which is largely skillless and decided by team matchup, and relatedly, you don't want to have to go out of your way to teambuild to beat a skillless and cheap strategy, especially if doing so will cost them wins in other games.

Oh man, the "right" to not face Baton Pass, I forgot about that one. That's like the 28th Amendment, yeah?

In contrast, I don't believe the desire, or right, to use Baton Pass is significant; again because it requires no skill to use. When not facing a very offensive team with multiple ways to potentially end the BP chain, there isn't even any prediction involved in winning; you can literally follow a simple formula. Players who use it don't contribute anything, either to their opponents or to the metagame, they're simply out to get points.

I'll believe it takes no skill to use when anybody can pilot Baton Pass to the top of the ladder, which I know is not the case. There is plenty of prediction involved in BP teams; most of it is concentrated in the first part of the battle, but oftentimes the BP player can win or lose the entire game on a small set of decisions, magnifying the importance of those actions. And what is with this bullshit attitude that if you win with Baton Pass you're some kind of cheater, or you "aren't contributing to the metagame". People are winning with something - adapt, or die.
...
Or ban it, right, forgot about that option.

 

[trexeateggplant]

As an average trainer who has both utilized baton pass and faced it, I don't really see why baton pass is any different than any other viable strategy like hyper offense or stall when it comes to preperation.

Any battle comes down to a finite number of things. Some things are player skill related, and some are match-up related. Any good trainer has their own method of team building. Recognizing potential weaknesses in your team is a vital skill for any team builder to possess. I believe that preparing for baton pass teams is just as necessary, but no more difficult than preparing for other threats and pokemon. On any team we must prepare for a setup sweeper like mega pinsir, a priority user like talonflame, a threat like aegislash, hazards from the many support pokemon, or a wall like clefable. With a minimal amount of tweaking to any team, one can be ready for baton pass, if they have a weakness to the like, or see it as a potential threat.

While I obviously see no reason to completely ban the move baton pass, I am an open minded fellow happy to see a compromise. If it is decided by the community that the combination of espeon and baton pass, or scolipede and baton pass should be banned, well I can fully understand that. With that being said, espeon in particular is the glue that holds many baton pass based teams together in past generations, because often arena hazards, taunt, roar, etc can undo a baton pass team. Banning Espeon with baton pass has the potential to have the same effect as banning the move altogether.

Finally, I hope you keep an open mind too. If the upper ladder is dominated by baton pass teams, obviously it is in need of some nerfing, however I doubt that baton pass this gen is used more than drizzle was last gen.

Happy battling everyone,
Zizzy

 

[Lightning Tiger]

Has any of you tried to use Weezing with Clear Smog and Fire Blast/Flamethrower?, It would destroy Scoilopede and Clear Smog can get past Magic Bounce due to it being an attack and also gets rid of all stat boosts (Espeon still kicks Weezing ass though....)_

Gengar also gets Clear Smog through Breeding