It is for flinching in general, but with stench, it gives the move Flinch chance AND the usual move effect.
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Haxmons (Playable on Aqua)
- Thread starter Snaquaza
- Start date
I like the irony of this metagame: by making everything haxed you have created a metagame where luck (hax) plays practically no part whatsoever.
Oh Really? http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haxmons-160110438
Also, I have noticed Talonflame to be highly effective in this meta. It's fast, hits hard, and it's main STAB has priority. While I haven't used it, it's difficult to fight if you don't have a strategy to deal with it.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
Yeah, talonflame is definatly a threat in haxmons. and it doesn't really abuse much hax other then crits to get that...status :D. (get it? hax?...status?...no?...:(...) but just because of the fact that talons greatest counters are...well...flinchfodder/not viable in the teir, it stands out as a threat. though it also still has plenty of checks and counters in dragonite, kabutops, omastar, stealth rocks and so on. i might try out talon soon myself since in theory its banded version could really pack a punch with all the crits it throws out
Well there are mons that can take down tflame, but I (with my completely naive idea of the meta) cannot think of any that are either of use in other situations or don't get severely crippled in the process. I use aerodactyl for both ditto and tflame, but that's barely worth using, as all the priority running amok ;~; at least it resists espeed.
Aerodactyl, Kabutops, Scarf Ditto, and Skuntank are the only four viable counters which come to mind for Talonflame. I'd also like to point out the viability of Adamant on Talonflame - the few pokemon it loses out to on priority speed battles are not a threat to it outside of perhaps Tri-Attack Whimsicott which would be a massive gamble to begin with.
Just to throw a few relevant Brave Bird Calculations
Choice Band Jolly Talonflame vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Choice Band Adamant Talonflame vs 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: (94.8 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
No-Item Jolly Talonflame vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 285-336 (101.4 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Choice Band Jolly Talonflame vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 351-414 (100.2 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Choice Band Jolly Talonflame vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 285-336 (70.5 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Choice Band Jolly Talonflame vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kabutops: 102-120 (39 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO [Taking Battle Armor into account]
Choice Band Adamant Talonflame vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl: 249-293 (82.7 - 97.3%) - guaranteed 2HKO
Just to throw a few relevant Brave Bird Calculations
Choice Band Jolly Talonflame vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Choice Band Adamant Talonflame vs 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: (94.8 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
No-Item Jolly Talonflame vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 285-336 (101.4 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Choice Band Jolly Talonflame vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 351-414 (100.2 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Choice Band Jolly Talonflame vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 285-336 (70.5 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Choice Band Jolly Talonflame vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kabutops: 102-120 (39 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO [Taking Battle Armor into account]
Choice Band Adamant Talonflame vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl: 249-293 (82.7 - 97.3%) - guaranteed 2HKO
I already said this in #haxmons, but I might as well let people know. If you really hate Talonflame, there are some counters no doubt, though they may seem a bit obscure at first glance. Let's take a look at Mega-Tyranitar.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar on a critical hit: 124-147 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
that's without bulk investment, now let's take a look at this:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Tyranitar on a critical hit: 95-112 (23.5 - 27.7%) -- 83.5% chance to 4HKO
lol?
and what can Tyranitar do back?
0 SpA Mega Tyranitar Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame on a critical hit: 508-600 (171 - 202%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now Mega-Tyranitar may seem bad, and not viable because of it's speed, but that is not the case. It's not that much slower than some existing threats like Kabutops and Dragonite. It's ability makes Excadrill an incredibly fast, powerful force allowing Excadrill to not only check Talonflame as well, but also dish out powerful, fast iron heads while resisting Extremespeed and Fake Out, very common in this meta. Mega-Tyranitar itself gets a ton of moves it can utilize very well in this meta: Body Slam, Dark Pulse, Fire Punch, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Ice Punch, Ancientpower, Iron Head, Pursuit, Thunder Punch, Thunderbolt, Bite, Water Pulse and much more.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar on a critical hit: 124-147 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
that's without bulk investment, now let's take a look at this:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Tyranitar on a critical hit: 95-112 (23.5 - 27.7%) -- 83.5% chance to 4HKO
lol?
and what can Tyranitar do back?
0 SpA Mega Tyranitar Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame on a critical hit: 508-600 (171 - 202%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now Mega-Tyranitar may seem bad, and not viable because of it's speed, but that is not the case. It's not that much slower than some existing threats like Kabutops and Dragonite. It's ability makes Excadrill an incredibly fast, powerful force allowing Excadrill to not only check Talonflame as well, but also dish out powerful, fast iron heads while resisting Extremespeed and Fake Out, very common in this meta. Mega-Tyranitar itself gets a ton of moves it can utilize very well in this meta: Body Slam, Dark Pulse, Fire Punch, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Ice Punch, Ancientpower, Iron Head, Pursuit, Thunder Punch, Thunderbolt, Bite, Water Pulse and much more.
canno
formerly The Reptile
While not the best check, Lapras can do the job by smacking Talonflame in the face with an Ancient Power. It has to take a burn though from non-choiced TBird (assuming TBird was spamming ESPeed), which is unfortunate since it can no longer beat Greninja with Ice Shard, but you might be able to Heal Bell on something / a switch. Meanwhile with the choiced set you need a free switch-in, although it can't OHKO even with SR. Again, Lapras isn't the best check at all but it can work in a pinch.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 283-334 (60.9 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 172-204 (37 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 283-334 (60.9 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 172-204 (37 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
T-tar can also set up sand stream for sand rush or sand force excadrill with iron head.
Max Carvalho
Que os jogos comecem
I am not the only one who noticed that sun negates freeze right?? Zard Y is incredible af.
I'm not sure why I would want to use this over Omastar, which is effectively just a bulkier version of Kabutops with higher Special Attack and lower Speed. It doesn't have to worry about critical hits, gets STAB on Ancientpower which is pretty nice for Dragonite, has Scald to thaw from freezes, and isn't weak to Stealth Rock. All in all, Omastar seems like a much better option to me. I've been using a RestTalk set, and the only thing this set really has to worry about is getting flinched before it gets the chance to set up a ton.
If there was a reason why you suggested this over Omastar or Kabutops within the last page or so, my bad because I didn't catch it!
Ninetales boasts the same speed, but can run a Heat Rock or choice scarf and two flinching attacks.
Max Carvalho
Que os jogos comecem
Zard Y has Ancient Power tho, and much much much more power to add on that.
If Mega Slowbro were to be released early, ya' think he would have a shot in this meta?
canno
formerly The Reptile
The main reason to use it (at least imo) is Ice Shard, as otherwise Lapras would be at the mercy of flinch users like Greninja. Lapras also boasts much higher special defense while only having slightly lower physical defense. This bulk is important on a shell armor poke imo. Lapras's Ice STAB also lets it deal with Dragonite much better than Omastar can due to its Ice STAB having priority (ESpeed isn't going to do that much considering no STAB and usually no boosting item, and Lapras is bulky). Heal Bell, while not a super important move on it, is something it has over Omastar. Another small thing it has over it is that it is directly immune to Freeze while Omastar needs to go for Scald in order to thaw (not very major but it is something to note imo) While I'm not saying that Lapras is better than Omastar (Omastar deals with Talonflame much better than Lapras does), there are reasons to use Lapras > Omastar.
No. Basically everything can flinch it to death.
Power is the single most overrated thing in this metagame. Outside of priority, how much damage you deal is nowhere near as important as in any other metagame. Notice how anger point users outside of a rare Tauros are nonexistent in the upper ladder, and the best Greninjas invest in physical bulk before offense.
Zard Y has a low 100 based speed and can't run a scarf to cover it, and it can be flinched out by a scarfer even after an OW boost. Sun hurts both sides equally, because if you aren't running Ice Punch / Ice Beam / Freeze Dry you are handicapping your own team. Charizard Y has no decent priority, does not resist flinching, and isn't even bulky, which are the only excuses for a pokemon that slow. If you do want to make it work though, absolutely make sure it runs ThunderPunch since it will need it.
The post above may stop short of saying Lapras is better than Omastar, so I'll say it: Lapras is much better than Omastar. Omastar has a more serious case of the problem surrounding Mega Char Y - he is just too slow. Lapras after an AP boost on the switch can kill most flinch spammers with ice shard before it dies due to its titanic bulk; sometimes the AP boost isn't even needed. She can even heal up with rest or boost again with AP once the flinch spam stops and they switch to stronger moves. She also has a much more consistent freeze resist without having to use a moveslot on scald, which is sometimes nice. Without priority, it doesn't matter how bulky or strong Omastar is because it is getting flinched out even after two or three speed boosts. On a personal note, Omastar has never been an issue, whereas Lapras setting up can often be a loss condition for me, or at least require half my team to take down. If you are running it just for Talonflame use Kabutops instead.
It isn't just a matter of getting rid of your opponent's flincher, because the entire metagame is centered around flinching, priority to stop flinching or beat other priority, and status to set up or stop the previous two. If you want to run something slow it better have some way to escape the flinch trap.
Zard Y has a low 100 based speed and can't run a scarf to cover it, and it can be flinched out by a scarfer even after an OW boost. Sun hurts both sides equally, because if you aren't running Ice Punch / Ice Beam / Freeze Dry you are handicapping your own team. Charizard Y has no decent priority, does not resist flinching, and isn't even bulky, which are the only excuses for a pokemon that slow. If you do want to make it work though, absolutely make sure it runs ThunderPunch since it will need it.
The post above may stop short of saying Lapras is better than Omastar, so I'll say it: Lapras is much better than Omastar. Omastar has a more serious case of the problem surrounding Mega Char Y - he is just too slow. Lapras after an AP boost on the switch can kill most flinch spammers with ice shard before it dies due to its titanic bulk; sometimes the AP boost isn't even needed. She can even heal up with rest or boost again with AP once the flinch spam stops and they switch to stronger moves. She also has a much more consistent freeze resist without having to use a moveslot on scald, which is sometimes nice. Without priority, it doesn't matter how bulky or strong Omastar is because it is getting flinched out even after two or three speed boosts. On a personal note, Omastar has never been an issue, whereas Lapras setting up can often be a loss condition for me, or at least require half my team to take down. If you are running it just for Talonflame use Kabutops instead.
It isn't just a matter of getting rid of your opponent's flincher, because the entire metagame is centered around flinching, priority to stop flinching or beat other priority, and status to set up or stop the previous two. If you want to run something slow it better have some way to escape the flinch trap.
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So stench got banned now, the new meta has arrived
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haxmons-161048275 Lapras is cheated ._.
I used a Lapras against you and you only said my Galvantula was cheated lol
I've been using that Crobat for a while now, and I feel like it's somewhat outclassed by Gengar. Crobat has Inner Focus and a faster base speed, but Gengar has STAB on Ominious Wind, doesn't have to use an item to flinch hax, and can beat the most common Inner Focus users (Lucario and Dragonite) with Focus Blast and Ice Punch.
>Focus Blast